knicks1248 wrote:Yes he finally doeshttp://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...
One NBA executive put it this way: “Phil is falling into the same trap every other guy (running Knicks) has for 15 years.
“It’s called, to hell with being patient and adding good pieces, I have to take broken down players and take a chance to try and win.”We heard a lot of talk from Jackson – on those occasions when he was still talking more than every few months — about the team-building and culture-changing he was going to do at the Garden. Only now he is doing it the way a lot of other New York executives do when in trouble: He is going for the splashy, big fix. It is what you do when you were presented as the Garden’s latest savior and proceeded to produce a won-loss record of 49-115, a record that makes Isiah Thomas’ first two years running the Knicks look good in comparison.
Basically, the building through the draft is for the birds, thats why these guys kill me with the TANK TALK. You see how quick grant was traded, he's not interested in developing, Phil is going to bring in some more vets with higher risk, but he's going to leave himself financial flexibility.
The trade for Rose, and the push for KD (even though your solid at the position) is an entire different approach than what he's been barking from day one.
He has got to put together a playoff team this off season, and I think he is well aware of it.
this is bullship because Phil hasn't been anything like prior GM.
Bargs traded for picks
McDyess traded for picks
Penny traded for picks
Melo traded for picks
Marbs traded for picks
TMac traded for picks
Rose traded for a player signed as a FA and a young player acquired in a trade for a guy who was terrible, and Jose... we can talk all day about how much the folks on UK appreciated him and his excellent win shares 
So there is no similarity at all. It gives us a player in the back court where we had none. This trade had none of the downside the other's did.
Phil does know what he's doing. Remember, being executive is not easy and it's his first try since coaching for all them yrs..
He's learning on the job and don't forget when he came on board, he had to clean someone else's mess on this team..
Phil is making moves and will continue to make moves until he see the right mix..
Previous knicks gm would've mortgage their draft picks for next 3 yrs and those draft picks would've been valauable commodities..
Ex. Lamarcus alridge, joachim noah were originally knicks picks.. lastly Knicks picked french center Frédéric weiss instead of Ron artest.. All bad moves from previous gma for the knicks....
shinmen wrote:Unless, Phil can entice a good rebounder and defender(who can stay on the court more thant 40 games) as center to replace Lopez, what we could gain from DRose, we'll lose it on the defensive end. I read an article our defense was 10th in the league despite our perimeter defense.
We were not 10th in the league defensively and Robin was a constant liability in pick and roll coverage.
I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose.
Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
GustavBahler wrote:I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose. Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
so no matter what happens Phil gets an F if Rose plays his way into a big extension?
tj23 wrote:shinmen wrote:Unless, Phil can entice a good rebounder and defender(who can stay on the court more thant 40 games) as center to replace Lopez, what we could gain from DRose, we'll lose it on the defensive end. I read an article our defense was 10th in the league despite our perimeter defense.
We were not 10th in the league defensively and Robin was a constant liability in pick and roll coverage.
It seems they were, at least in point allowed per game.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_...
fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose. Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
so no matter what happens Phil gets an F if Rose plays his way into a big extension?
Would you give him the Max? What is your criteria for a contract extension? I didnt want to give Melo max years either for the same reasons, age, injuries, cap hit. With Rose the risk is even greater.
getting rid of calderon was important. i guess jackson saw that grant's ceiling was too low. losing lopez hurts. he improved steadily over the course of the season.
that said, acquiring a center like howard (no) or noah (yes) may be an afterthought, since the knicks are bringing in willie hernangomez over from spain. that is, phil is skewing the knicks younger and younger. rose is an interesting gambit-- his play and his character are under scrutiny-- i do not see him working out here so that's a salary dump and it's a contract that is two years shorter than caleron's. shades of walsh vis a vis crawful and zbo.
even if rose plays the good soldier and does what he is told, there's his defense which will remain abysmal. the knicks had better focus on getting an above-average shooting guard on the defensive side of the ball or the backcourt will continue getting blown by, punishing the interior defense with fouls.
overall, i don't want to feel as though jackson is being coerced here. i think he is hewing to a medium and long term plan, just as he said he would from the beginning.
Does Jax know what he is doing?
Do any of us know the future?
Do any of us have anxiety of the unknown?
Does any of us fear what we don't know?
Average fan: "Since I don't know the future, I don't know what Phil is doing, thus I fear what I don't know. Since it has gone wrong in the past, It must go wrong in the future. since I get most of my info from the media, I am manipulated by fear/anger articles".
Nalod wrote:Does Jax know what he is doing?
Do any of us know the future?
Do any of us have anxiety of the unknown?
Does any of us fear what we don't know?Average fan: "Since I don't know the future, I don't know what Phil is doing, thus I fear what I don't know. Since it has gone wrong in the past, It must go wrong in the future. since I get most of my info from the media, I am manipulated by fear/anger articles".
Below average fan: " I don't have an opinion, but I'll make fun of those who do.
GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose. Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
so no matter what happens Phil gets an F if Rose plays his way into a big extension?
Would you give him the Max? What is your criteria for a contract extension? I didnt want to give Melo max years either for the same reasons, age, injuries, cap hit. With Rose the risk is even greater.
For some reason I don't believe Phil will give Rose a long term Max Contract, tho it would likely be a very large contract. Rose will never be the exact same MVP level guy he was so I doubt very much Phil would pay him like he was. If Rose balls out relative to his current diminished ability he will get some good money but I can imagine there will be some kind of protection for the team against his next injury, which at his age and with his knee history is very likely. He's gonna need to get at least a scope to clean out the knee at some point. That's just normal for guys that have had knee surgery. The good news is that he supposedly had a great checkup and the Knicks were pleasantly surprised by his condition.
It seems like Phil is hot on the trail of Joakim Noah. I think he'd be a great fit for the Knicks. His passing and hustle would be very good for the team and his passion on D would help tremendously. He would give the team a lot of what RoLo gave us but with the addition of more speed and great passing.
GustavBahler wrote:Nalod wrote:Does Jax know what he is doing?
Do any of us know the future?
Do any of us have anxiety of the unknown?
Does any of us fear what we don't know?Average fan: "Since I don't know the future, I don't know what Phil is doing, thus I fear what I don't know. Since it has gone wrong in the past, It must go wrong in the future. since I get most of my info from the media, I am manipulated by fear/anger articles".
Below average fan: " I don't have an opinion, but I'll make fun of those who do.
I have plenty of opinions and state them, but you don't hear me talking as if I know what others are thinking. I point to some precedence, state when I think its logical, or refer to some fact.
Doing "Yeah, I don't think he is signing here", well that's a real stretch isn't it?
I read the same stuff as everyone else, but Im not about to think that makes us knowledgeable, its just makes us INFORMED!
Ignorance breads fear. Problem is when the ignorant don't understand what they don't know.
nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose. Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
so no matter what happens Phil gets an F if Rose plays his way into a big extension?
Would you give him the Max? What is your criteria for a contract extension? I didnt want to give Melo max years either for the same reasons, age, injuries, cap hit. With Rose the risk is even greater.
For some reason I don't believe Phil will give Rose a long term Max Contract, tho it would likely be a very large contract. Rose will never be the exact same MVP level guy he was so I doubt very much Phil would pay him like he was. If Rose balls out relative to his current diminished ability he will get some good money but I can imagine there will be some kind of protection for the team against his next injury, which at his age and with his knee history is very likely. He's gonna need to get at least a scope to clean out the knee at some point. That's just normal for guys that have had knee surgery. The good news is that he supposedly had a great checkup and the Knicks were pleasantly surprised by his condition.It seems like Phil is hot on the trail of Joakim Noah. I think he'd be a great fit for the Knicks. His passing and hustle would be very good for the team and his passion on D would help tremendously. He would give the team a lot of what RoLo gave us but with the addition of more speed and great passing.
I hope Phil is that sensible. Rose has made it clear that he wants to sign a big deal. I just hope Phil doesn't get seduced by one good season. I understand its hard to sit on your hands when you see players like Curry/Westbrook/Iriving doing their thing.
Nalod wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Nalod wrote:Does Jax know what he is doing?
Do any of us know the future?
Do any of us have anxiety of the unknown?
Does any of us fear what we don't know?Average fan: "Since I don't know the future, I don't know what Phil is doing, thus I fear what I don't know. Since it has gone wrong in the past, It must go wrong in the future. since I get most of my info from the media, I am manipulated by fear/anger articles".
Below average fan: " I don't have an opinion, but I'll make fun of those who do.
I have plenty of opinions and state them, but you don't hear me talking as if I know what others are thinking. I point to some precedence, state when I think its logical, or refer to some fact.
Doing "Yeah, I don't think he is signing here", well that's a real stretch isn't it?
I read the same stuff as everyone else, but Im not about to think that makes us knowledgeable, its just makes us INFORMED!
Ignorance breads fear. Problem is when the ignorant don't understand what they don't know.
No one here is scared, its an internet message board. Its all guesswork. Your brand of guesswork is no better than anyone else's. Few people here speak in absolutes.
Drose will present a problem because if he has a monster season fans will want him back. If he has monster season is his health no longer a concern?
For that matter, should we be concerned with Durants feet? Didn't he go thru a long stretch of injury? He came back. Now the world is his.
Drose I would guess made problems with his team when he was practicing full and then not suiting up. History tells us players come back too soon have problems.
The 100mm question will be what is his outlook given the condition of his knee after this season? Its easy to extrapolate his problems going forward, but we just going to have to see.
One can only hope there is more than we know being orchestrated. Usually its not.
GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose. Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
so no matter what happens Phil gets an F if Rose plays his way into a big extension?
Would you give him the Max? What is your criteria for a contract extension? I didnt want to give Melo max years either for the same reasons, age, injuries, cap hit. With Rose the risk is even greater.
there are scenarios where yes.. I would give him a big extension. You didn't answer my question though... Rose is 27. There is no scenario you extend him? Its just dump the garbage at year's end else this is just an epic failure?
fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose. Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
so no matter what happens Phil gets an F if Rose plays his way into a big extension?
Would you give him the Max? What is your criteria for a contract extension? I didnt want to give Melo max years either for the same reasons, age, injuries, cap hit. With Rose the risk is even greater.
there are scenarios where yes.. I would give him a big extension. You didn't answer my question though... Rose is 27. There is no scenario you extend him? Its just dump the garbage at year's end else this is just an epic failure?
I mentioned it the last time we had this discussion. 2-3 years at max dollars would be the most I would want to offer him, there has to be an out. If Rose starts breaking down on a max contract, there wont be one.
the hardest thing to get is talent... elite talent is even harder. Grant Hill spent 6 years battling injuries and couldn't get on the court. 6 years! Then, after all that he had 4 seasons where we he pretty much played 80 games.
Its one thing to put all your coins into a broken machine, but this is not the case. This is a case of the Knicks trading a complimentary part for a player with a much higher upside. They did not mortgage the future in any way shape or form.
Also Rose will be a complimentary piece, or hopefully piece of a "big 4" with Melo/KP/Rose and a high level FA this year.
GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose. Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
so no matter what happens Phil gets an F if Rose plays his way into a big extension?
Would you give him the Max? What is your criteria for a contract extension? I didnt want to give Melo max years either for the same reasons, age, injuries, cap hit. With Rose the risk is even greater.
We basically gave up Grant for a one year look at Rose and his bird rights as well as full medical knowledge privy to his situation.
Ropez as a freebie. We gave up no future assets. we got back a serviceable Two, (Holiday and second round pick)
So basically your afraid we end up with another Amare situation. THat is logical, but not one medical situation with one mans body is the same on anothers.
Also, who is to say his market price will be that high and another team will go max on him? We might decide on Westbrook? If KP has a monster year, the whole thing changes.
nixluva wrote:GustavBahler wrote:fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I dont believe we will know until next summer. The Knicks future hinges IMO on what Phil does with Rose. Signing Derrick Rose for Max years, Max dollars next summer would be no different than any other quick fix previous Knick GMs have foisted on fans over the past decade. The player that used to be Derrick Rose has been a shell of his former self for the last 4 years. Derrick has been one of the worst in the league, if not the worst at his position. Right now he is Derrick Rose in name only (no Shakespeare please)
Rose might have shown some signs of life here and there, but not enough to be anything but very wary of a long term deal. If this were one knee surgery, one bad season, talking a chance on Rose would be worth the gamble. I dont care how old he is, Im sure Rose's knees are a lot older.
What I dont know, and no one here knows, is how well Rose has to play to get that big contract he has been telling the media that he cant wait to sign. Will journeyman numbers be enough? Slightly better? Something closer to the old Derrick Rose? No one really knows, and anyone who says they do is lying. How good is enough for Phil to give someone who has shown they can't stay on the court the Max? We wont know that until next summer, until then the jury is out.
so no matter what happens Phil gets an F if Rose plays his way into a big extension?
Would you give him the Max? What is your criteria for a contract extension? I didnt want to give Melo max years either for the same reasons, age, injuries, cap hit. With Rose the risk is even greater.
For some reason I don't believe Phil will give Rose a long term Max Contract, tho it would likely be a very large contract. Rose will never be the exact same MVP level guy he was so I doubt very much Phil would pay him like he was. If Rose balls out relative to his current diminished ability he will get some good money but I can imagine there will be some kind of protection for the team against his next injury, which at his age and with his knee history is very likely. He's gonna need to get at least a scope to clean out the knee at some point. That's just normal for guys that have had knee surgery. The good news is that he supposedly had a great checkup and the Knicks were pleasantly surprised by his condition.It seems like Phil is hot on the trail of Joakim Noah. I think he'd be a great fit for the Knicks. His passing and hustle would be very good for the team and his passion on D would help tremendously. He would give the team a lot of what RoLo gave us but with the addition of more speed and great passing.
noah is among my favorite players in the nba-- but thibidoux shortened noah's career, not to mention that noah has played 80 games only TWICE his entire career, so he is clearly an injury waiting to happen, along with rose. noah should not be playing more than 20-24 minutes a night. my take is if you bring him in it will mean platooning with hernangomez while mentoring hernangomez and kp6 on the art of passing from the post. that would be a big deal for the knicks culture change.
and then there's the money he will want. i wouldn't pay a guy who will likely break down and be on a minutes restriction any more than 15 million a year over two years. he'd make a great "transition" player.
EnySpree wrote:You guys would rather go out of your way to masterbate with sandpaper even when there's plenty of lotion on your nightstand
+100000000000
They'd rather play circlejerk in Candyland while eating old, reheated horseshit, like JlinsideMe, "The Rape/Trade", "PP is for Me"...etc, etc...
