Knicks · Only two guys left from the ten that attended Phil's Triangle Workshop (page 1)
CrushAlot wrote:KP and O'Quinn. Early might be back. Also Rambis is still here.
I was going to make a larger post about this, and obviously I caught a lot of flack for speculating at the time - but I do think Phil underwent a MAJOR philosophy shift between the end of the season in April when it sounded like Rambis would be the coach and he didn't want to invest in point guards... and now when he have made major moves for DRose and a quality risk signing in Jennings and hired Hornacek at head coach who may run the Triangle, but will feature pick and rolls and faster pace.
He has definitely flip the script,and I pray he comes out looking like a Don
knicks1248 wrote:This is a full 180, its like someone slap the shiiit out of Phil and yelled WTF..wake the hell up!!!He has definitely flip the script,and I pray he comes out looking like a Don
My guess is that it was Dolan.
nixluva wrote:What you guys are saying is over the top. Every recruit for the draft said the focus was Triangle. Summer League was Triangle and it's still Triangle in D League. All that's happened is a tweak. The Triangle is still the core of the system but with some changes. There really isn't anything wrong with the underlying system. They just needed to increase the pace, PnR and 3's. All of which has been part of the system but now the focus on these aspects should increase.
The draft? Summer league? hmmmm... those reallllllly don't seem to be the focus right now.
crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:KP and O'Quinn. Early might be back. Also Rambis is still here.I was going to make a larger post about this, and obviously I caught a lot of flack for speculating at the time - but I do think Phil underwent a MAJOR philosophy shift between the end of the season in April when it sounded like Rambis would be the coach and he didn't want to invest in point guards... and now when he have made major moves for DRose and a quality risk signing in Jennings and hired Hornacek at head coach who may run the Triangle, but will feature pick and rolls and faster pace.
I believe Phil never was going to hire Rambis. He loves to say one thing and do another when it comes to the media. He made a career out of it. Mind games. I never took the Rambis stuff serious. Why didn't he hire Rambis over Fish or Kerr if he was so great a leader? Phil knew where Rambis could help - an assistant and someone that reports back to Phil.
Where I agree with you is the change of thinking. I believe this is all on Hornachek and their meeting. I believe Hornachek approached it in a way that made Phil realize he had to try something differently than how he won as a coach because the talent the Knicks have or could have realistically is vastly different than than that Lakers or his Bullls team had. For one those teams had a Kobe or Jordan to overshadow the need for a real point guard. Sure if you have a Lebron James you don't need a really effective point guard (won with Chalmers in Miami). However will the Knicks ever get that kind of talent? And posting up well Shaq was the most dominant post player arguably ever and Pau Gasol in his peak was a great post player. Knicks just didn't have the means to attain players like that for Phil to keep ignoring the point guard position. You saw this free agency and summer everything happen the way Hornachek wants it. He wanted a real driving point guard and that's what he got. He wanted a backup who has starting ability and they got that. With the option to even run 2 point guard lineups.
It will be a very interesting year. I won't say anything with confirmation or conviction in regards to where we will end up but I do believe a playoff run is realistic.
crzymdups wrote:nixluva wrote:What you guys are saying is over the top. Every recruit for the draft said the focus was Triangle. Summer League was Triangle and it's still Triangle in D League. All that's happened is a tweak. The Triangle is still the core of the system but with some changes. There really isn't anything wrong with the underlying system. They just needed to increase the pace, PnR and 3's. All of which has been part of the system but now the focus on these aspects should increase.The draft? Summer league? hmmmm... those reallllllly don't seem to be the focus right now.
Of course not during Free Agency! Still they have a D League team to field and the Triangle is still very much the core system with some of Hornacek's spices on top. So really what is the point being made? Rose and Noah have played Triangle and even with new players added only one starter is green to the Triangle.
nixluva wrote:What you guys are saying is over the top. Every recruit for the draft said the focus was Triangle. Summer League was Triangle and it's still Triangle in D League. All that's happened is a tweak. The Triangle is still the core of the system but with some changes. There really isn't anything wrong with the underlying system. They just needed to increase the pace, PnR and 3's. All of which has been part of the system but now the focus on these aspects should increase.
Rambis as head coach was all mind games.
But the point guard moves - that is Phil trusting Hornachek. I believe whatever it is about Jeff, Phil completely trusts him and his system.
nyknickzingis wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:KP and O'Quinn. Early might be back. Also Rambis is still here.I was going to make a larger post about this, and obviously I caught a lot of flack for speculating at the time - but I do think Phil underwent a MAJOR philosophy shift between the end of the season in April when it sounded like Rambis would be the coach and he didn't want to invest in point guards... and now when he have made major moves for DRose and a quality risk signing in Jennings and hired Hornacek at head coach who may run the Triangle, but will feature pick and rolls and faster pace.
I believe Phil never was going to hire Rambis. He loves to say one thing and do another when it comes to the media. He made a career out of it. Mind games. I never took the Rambis stuff serious. Why didn't he hire Rambis over Fish or Kerr if he was so great a leader? Phil knew where Rambis could help - an assistant and someone that reports back to Phil.
Where I agree with you is the change of thinking. I believe this is all on Hornachek and their meeting. I believe Hornachek approached it in a way that made Phil realize he had to try something differently than how he won as a coach because the talent the Knicks have or could have realistic all is vastly different than than that Lakers. You saw this free agency and summer everything happen the way Hornachek wants it. He wanted a real driving point guard and that's what he got. He wanted a backup who has starting ability and they got that. With the option to even run 2 point guard lineups. He wanted a big that didn't post up at 5, instead be a facilitating big.It will be a very interesting year. I won't say anything with confirmation or conviction in regards to where we will end up but I do believe a playoff run is realistic.
Yes, perhaps it was Hornacek. I am not sure. Chris Herring and Seth Rosenthal have posted that they talked to people in the Knicks organization who believed Rambis was on the verge of being hired. I think Phil underwent a major philosophy change, even to interview Hornacek. I'm not saying it was not Phil's decision to make that philosophy change - who knows what precipitated it - but I do think there was a major change from the end of the season to about mid-May when he hired Hornacek. I'm in favor of the moves. To me, before he was trying to do a slow build with almost no draft picks and Melo signed to a max deal and it made no sense. Going for it during Melo's window makes sense to me. But the shift was notable to me.
Just think - as recently as three-four weeks ago we were all talking about a potentiaal starting backcourt of Wroten and Jerian Grant side by side - there were multiple reports that Phil Jackson thought Wroten might be the starting PG. Now we have DRose, Jennings, Courtney Lee.
nixluva wrote:Phil said that they made up their minds about needing a PG before Hornacek. Perhaps they started negotiations with the Bulls before Horny as well. Whatever it was I'm glad they made all the moves they have.
Where did he say that? Not trying to troll or anything, just honestly curious. I don't remember him saying that. I remember very clearly him saying that he didn't want to "get caught up in the need for a PG, for overpaying for one."
I'm at the point now where I realize that what Phil says to the media and what he winds up doing don't have much relation to each other... but still... the shift in emphasis is interesting and to me notable.
nyknickzingis wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:KP and O'Quinn. Early might be back. Also Rambis is still here.I was going to make a larger post about this, and obviously I caught a lot of flack for speculating at the time - but I do think Phil underwent a MAJOR philosophy shift between the end of the season in April when it sounded like Rambis would be the coach and he didn't want to invest in point guards... and now when he have made major moves for DRose and a quality risk signing in Jennings and hired Hornacek at head coach who may run the Triangle, but will feature pick and rolls and faster pace.
I believe Phil never was going to hire Rambis. He loves to say one thing and do another when it comes to the media. He made a career out of it. Mind games. I never took the Rambis stuff serious. Why didn't he hire Rambis over Fish or Kerr if he was so great a leader? Phil knew where Rambis could help - an assistant and someone that reports back to Phil.
Where I agree with you is the change of thinking. I believe this is all on Hornachek and their meeting. I believe Hornachek approached it in a way that made Phil realize he had to try something differently than how he won as a coach because the talent the Knicks have or could have realistically is vastly different than than that Lakers or his Bullls team had. For one those teams had a Kobe or Jordan to overshadow the need for a real point guard. Sure if you have a Lebron James you don't need a really effective point guard (won with Chalmers in Miami). However will the Knicks ever get that kind of talent? And posting up well Shaq was the most dominant post player arguably ever and Pau Gasol in his peak was a great post player. Knicks just didn't have the means to attain players like that for Phil to keep ignoring the point guard position. You saw this free agency and summer everything happen the way Hornachek wants it. He wanted a real driving point guard and that's what he got. He wanted a backup who has starting ability and they got that. With the option to even run 2 point guard lineups.It will be a very interesting year. I won't say anything with confirmation or conviction in regards to where we will end up but I do believe a playoff run is realistic.
Hornacek...maybe Anthony, I just don't think it was Dolan changed Phil. Maybe Phil just stepped back and looked at things differently.
The Rose trade kicked things off. Which side initiated the trade? Maybe Phil rolled the dice on that one and everything else fell into step afterwards. Somebody in another thread pointed out how Rose pushed for Noah and Noah pushed for Lee, and who knows how Jennings was first approached.
Your last line is probably exactly how I think...only thing I would have mentioned is the health factor- which is probably why you're a bit hesitant.
A big if...but if everyone is healthy, minimal games are missed during the regular season, and our entire squad is healthy for the playoffs, I simply cannot see how we won't be a major "player" in the playoffs. We should be able to compete against almost any team in the EC, IMO, and give the Cavs a run for their money.
WaltLongmire wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:KP and O'Quinn. Early might be back. Also Rambis is still here.I was going to make a larger post about this, and obviously I caught a lot of flack for speculating at the time - but I do think Phil underwent a MAJOR philosophy shift between the end of the season in April when it sounded like Rambis would be the coach and he didn't want to invest in point guards... and now when he have made major moves for DRose and a quality risk signing in Jennings and hired Hornacek at head coach who may run the Triangle, but will feature pick and rolls and faster pace.
I believe Phil never was going to hire Rambis. He loves to say one thing and do another when it comes to the media. He made a career out of it. Mind games. I never took the Rambis stuff serious. Why didn't he hire Rambis over Fish or Kerr if he was so great a leader? Phil knew where Rambis could help - an assistant and someone that reports back to Phil.
Where I agree with you is the change of thinking. I believe this is all on Hornachek and their meeting. I believe Hornachek approached it in a way that made Phil realize he had to try something differently than how he won as a coach because the talent the Knicks have or could have realistically is vastly different than than that Lakers or his Bullls team had. For one those teams had a Kobe or Jordan to overshadow the need for a real point guard. Sure if you have a Lebron James you don't need a really effective point guard (won with Chalmers in Miami). However will the Knicks ever get that kind of talent? And posting up well Shaq was the most dominant post player arguably ever and Pau Gasol in his peak was a great post player. Knicks just didn't have the means to attain players like that for Phil to keep ignoring the point guard position. You saw this free agency and summer everything happen the way Hornachek wants it. He wanted a real driving point guard and that's what he got. He wanted a backup who has starting ability and they got that. With the option to even run 2 point guard lineups.It will be a very interesting year. I won't say anything with confirmation or conviction in regards to where we will end up but I do believe a playoff run is realistic.
Hornacek...maybe Anthony, I just don't think it was Dolan changed Phil. Maybe Phil just stepped back and looked at things differently.The Rose trade kicked things off. Which side initiated the trade? Maybe Phil rolled the dice on that one and everything else fell into step afterwards. Somebody in another thread pointed out how Rose pushed for Noah and Noah pushed for Lee, and who knows how Jennings was first approached.
Your last line is probably exactly how I think...only thing I would have mentioned is the health factor- which is probably why you're a bit hesitant.
A big if...but if everyone is healthy, minimal games are missed during the regular season, and our entire squad is healthy for the playoffs, I simply cannot see how we won't be a major "player" in the playoffs. We should be able to compete against almost any team in the EC, IMO, and give the Cavs a run for their money.
I think it was Hornacek. Hornacek is a veteran coach who worked as an assistant before he was a head coach. He knew what he wanted to do and clicked with Phil. He isn't being mentored or told how to coach he is a partner in a team situation and Phil is getting guys that fit what he wants to do. That wasn't the case with Fisher or Rambis in my opinion. Fisher had most of his coaching staff chosen for him. Everything started with Jeff. He said he wanted a point guard to bridge the gap between Jose and Wroten/Grant. Rose, and Jennings are huge upgrades at the position.
CrushAlot wrote:WaltLongmire wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:KP and O'Quinn. Early might be back. Also Rambis is still here.I was going to make a larger post about this, and obviously I caught a lot of flack for speculating at the time - but I do think Phil underwent a MAJOR philosophy shift between the end of the season in April when it sounded like Rambis would be the coach and he didn't want to invest in point guards... and now when he have made major moves for DRose and a quality risk signing in Jennings and hired Hornacek at head coach who may run the Triangle, but will feature pick and rolls and faster pace.
I believe Phil never was going to hire Rambis. He loves to say one thing and do another when it comes to the media. He made a career out of it. Mind games. I never took the Rambis stuff serious. Why didn't he hire Rambis over Fish or Kerr if he was so great a leader? Phil knew where Rambis could help - an assistant and someone that reports back to Phil.
Where I agree with you is the change of thinking. I believe this is all on Hornachek and their meeting. I believe Hornachek approached it in a way that made Phil realize he had to try something differently than how he won as a coach because the talent the Knicks have or could have realistically is vastly different than than that Lakers or his Bullls team had. For one those teams had a Kobe or Jordan to overshadow the need for a real point guard. Sure if you have a Lebron James you don't need a really effective point guard (won with Chalmers in Miami). However will the Knicks ever get that kind of talent? And posting up well Shaq was the most dominant post player arguably ever and Pau Gasol in his peak was a great post player. Knicks just didn't have the means to attain players like that for Phil to keep ignoring the point guard position. You saw this free agency and summer everything happen the way Hornachek wants it. He wanted a real driving point guard and that's what he got. He wanted a backup who has starting ability and they got that. With the option to even run 2 point guard lineups.It will be a very interesting year. I won't say anything with confirmation or conviction in regards to where we will end up but I do believe a playoff run is realistic.
Hornacek...maybe Anthony, I just don't think it was Dolan changed Phil. Maybe Phil just stepped back and looked at things differently.The Rose trade kicked things off. Which side initiated the trade? Maybe Phil rolled the dice on that one and everything else fell into step afterwards. Somebody in another thread pointed out how Rose pushed for Noah and Noah pushed for Lee, and who knows how Jennings was first approached.
Your last line is probably exactly how I think...only thing I would have mentioned is the health factor- which is probably why you're a bit hesitant.
A big if...but if everyone is healthy, minimal games are missed during the regular season, and our entire squad is healthy for the playoffs, I simply cannot see how we won't be a major "player" in the playoffs. We should be able to compete against almost any team in the EC, IMO, and give the Cavs a run for their money.
I think it was Hornacek. Hornacek is a veteran coach who worked as an assistant before he was a head coach. He knew what he wanted to do and clicked with Phil. He isn't being mentored or told how to coach he is a partner in a team situation and Phil is getting guys that fit what he wants to do. That wasn't the case with Fisher or Rambis in my opinion. Fisher had most of his coaching staff chosen for him. Everything started with Jeff. He said he wanted a point guard to bridge the gap between Jose and Wroten/Grant. Rose, and Jennings are huge upgrades at the position.
I agree with this. But also, wasn't there a philosophy change needed to even get to Hornacek?
crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:KP and O'Quinn. Early might be back. Also Rambis is still here.I was going to make a larger post about this, and obviously I caught a lot of flack for speculating at the time - but I do think Phil underwent a MAJOR philosophy shift between the end of the season in April when it sounded like Rambis would be the coach and he didn't want to invest in point guards... and now when he have made major moves for DRose and a quality risk signing in Jennings and hired Hornacek at head coach who may run the Triangle, but will feature pick and rolls and faster pace.
I believe Phil never was going to hire Rambis. He loves to say one thing and do another when it comes to the media. He made a career out of it. Mind games. I never took the Rambis stuff serious. Why didn't he hire Rambis over Fish or Kerr if he was so great a leader? Phil knew where Rambis could help - an assistant and someone that reports back to Phil.
Where I agree with you is the change of thinking. I believe this is all on Hornachek and their meeting. I believe Hornachek approached it in a way that made Phil realize he had to try something differently than how he won as a coach because the talent the Knicks have or could have realistic all is vastly different than than that Lakers. You saw this free agency and summer everything happen the way Hornachek wants it. He wanted a real driving point guard and that's what he got. He wanted a backup who has starting ability and they got that. With the option to even run 2 point guard lineups. He wanted a big that didn't post up at 5, instead be a facilitating big.It will be a very interesting year. I won't say anything with confirmation or conviction in regards to where we will end up but I do believe a playoff run is realistic.
Yes, perhaps it was Hornacek. I am not sure. Chris Herring and Seth Rosenthal have posted that they talked to people in the Knicks organization who believed Rambis was on the verge of being hired. I think Phil underwent a major philosophy change, even to interview Hornacek. I'm not saying it was not Phil's decision to make that philosophy change - who knows what precipitated it - but I do think there was a major change from the end of the season to about mid-May when he hired Hornacek. I'm in favor of the moves. To me, before he was trying to do a slow build with almost no draft picks and Melo signed to a max deal and it made no sense. Going for it during Melo's window makes sense to me. But the shift was notable to me.
Just think - as recently as three-four weeks ago we were all talking about a potentiaal starting backcourt of Wroten and Jerian Grant side by side - there were multiple reports that Phil Jackson thought Wroten might be the starting PG. Now we have DRose, Jennings, Courtney Lee.
Hard to figure Jackson out, and he's tricked us a number of times- especially before the 2016 draft. Our early interest in KP, the secret Russell workout, trading to get Hernangomez and Grant. Add the Hornacek hiring to this list and the Rose trade. Few rumors about any of this stuff.
We live in an age where everyone seems to believe that life should be transparent and all answers should be given to use when we want them. Jackson talks a lot of philosophy, but he keeps his cards well hidden from the press, and he's done a pretty good job keeping info he doesn't want out there covered up.
I'm not even sure how open he is to some of the folks who Herring and Rosenthal talked to.
I get no sense of what he wants, other than that he prefers players who are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good in order to build a winning team.