Knicks · Article: Stop Expecting Derrick Rose to Be Something He Never Was (page 2)
mreinman@ 7/20/2016 7:09 PM
EnySpree wrote:
mreinman wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Good article...
We shouldn't be arguing about Rose being MVP Rose.... he just needs to be the Rose he's always been. Which is the same player. He's a east to west player. Go hard to the rim. Anything else is gravy.
Bottom line, the Knicks got better. Hallelujah
we better hope that he is not the player that he has been the last few years.
Last year he was 16 and 4 in 31 mins.... if he could do that then I want that. Health is a concern but he's due to have a healthy year.... plus it's his contract year
how about if it was 16 points on 50 shots? How'd you like him then?
EnySpree@ 7/20/2016 7:16 PM
ActionJackson wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Remember this play? It cost the Spurs a trip to the Finals that year. Glad it wasn't us, lol.
That may appear to be Strickland's fault but it's actually Sean Elliot's screw up. Any player from NYC like Strick that made eye contact with his man on the wing would've naturally expected his dude to cut to the basket catch the perfectly thrown dime and bang it home. If Strick was guilty of anything it was in NOT recognizing that it was soft as butter Elliot out there hanging around the perimeter eager to chuck up a three with no time left on the clock, instead of aggressively driving to the hole. Coastal differences i guess
I remember that. Stupid kid mistake. Wasn't that bad because he played for Portland right after that.
He's one of my all time favorite point guards. If Derrick Rose could channel some of poise and patience he would be so much better. Funny to say that after watching that video lol
EnySpree@ 7/20/2016 7:18 PM
mreinman wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
mreinman wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Good article...
We shouldn't be arguing about Rose being MVP Rose.... he just needs to be the Rose he's always been. Which is the same player. He's a east to west player. Go hard to the rim. Anything else is gravy.
Bottom line, the Knicks got better. Hallelujah
we better hope that he is not the player that he has been the last few years.
Last year he was 16 and 4 in 31 mins.... if he could do that then I want that. Health is a concern but he's due to have a healthy year.... plus it's his contract year
how about if it was 16 points on 50 shots? How'd you like him then?
How about if it was 16 points on 7 shots? How'd you like him then?
GustavBahler@ 7/20/2016 7:21 PM
ActionJackson wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Remember this play? It cost the Spurs a trip to the Finals that year. Glad it wasn't us, lol.
That may appear to be Strickland's fault but it's actually Sean Elliot's screw up. Any player from NYC like Strick that made eye contact with his man on the wing would've naturally expected his dude to cut to the basket catch the perfectly thrown dime and bang it home. If Strick was guilty of anything it was in NOT recognizing that it was soft as butter Elliot out there hanging around the perimeter eager to chuck up a three with no time left on the clock, instead of aggressively driving to the hole. Coastal differences i guess
Nice, lol. Im sure Rod would approve.
Bonn1997@ 7/20/2016 7:25 PM
EnySpree wrote:
mreinman wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Good article...
We shouldn't be arguing about Rose being MVP Rose.... he just needs to be the Rose he's always been. Which is the same player. He's a east to west player. Go hard to the rim. Anything else is gravy.
Bottom line, the Knicks got better. Hallelujah
we better hope that he is not the player that he has been the last few years.
Last year he was 16 and 4 in 31 mins.... if he could do that then I want that. Health is a concern but he's due to have a healthy year.... plus it's his contract year
That's 16 points on 16 shots. The average team takes 85 shots a game. So clearly a point a shot isn't going to cut it.
GustavBahler@ 7/20/2016 7:26 PM
EnySpree wrote:
ActionJackson wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Remember this play? It cost the Spurs a trip to the Finals that year. Glad it wasn't us, lol.
That may appear to be Strickland's fault but it's actually Sean Elliot's screw up. Any player from NYC like Strick that made eye contact with his man on the wing would've naturally expected his dude to cut to the basket catch the perfectly thrown dime and bang it home. If Strick was guilty of anything it was in NOT recognizing that it was soft as butter Elliot out there hanging around the perimeter eager to chuck up a three with no time left on the clock, instead of aggressively driving to the hole. Coastal differences i guess
I remember that. Stupid kid mistake. Wasn't that bad because he played for Portland right after that.
He's one of my all time favorite point guards. If Derrick Rose could channel some of poise and patience he would be so much better. Funny to say that after watching that video lol
Bad for the Spurs, good for Portland. Rod had some serious skills. I get the feeling that even if Mark Jackson was the one who was traded, it would have ended the same way. Wish we had him in NY in his prime years, that would have been something.
dk7th@ 7/20/2016 7:27 PM
newyorker4ever wrote:
dk7th wrote:
nixluva wrote:
dk7th wrote:Pretty much everything I have been saying. Thanks anyway.
Forgive me but I don't remember what you've been saying about Rose. Perhaps you could clarify your take on Rose for us.
He has been vastly overrated and in no way should have been awarded the MVP. He still has a lot to prove and I mean especially in the shot selection category. He should work on deferring to KP6 and Melo and probably in that order. Twelve shots per game and a usage of no more edthan 25%. He also has some sketchy character issues which should give you pause. He also needs to find perimeter players on his reckless forays into the lane and not merely his pickers. Lastly, he needs to show a n eagerness to defend the position because he has flat out sucked at it his entire career. Since you almost never address defense you might dwell on that, especially since an eagerness to defend tends to be closely related to character.
Hmmmmmmm i don't remember you saying all that. Link??
dk7th wrote:Pretty much everything I have been saying. Thanks anyway.
Forgive me but I don't remember what you've been saying about Rose. Perhaps you could clarify your take on Rose for us.
He has been vastly overrated and in no way should have been awarded the MVP. He still has a lot to prove and I mean especially in the shot selection category. He should work on deferring to KP6 and Melo and probably in that order. Twelve shots per game and a usage of no more edthan 25%. He also has some sketchy character issues which should give you pause. He also needs to find perimeter players on his reckless forays into the lane and not merely his pickers. Lastly, he needs to show a n eagerness to defend the position because he has flat out sucked at it his entire career. Since you almost never address defense you might dwell on that, especially since an eagerness to defend tends to be closely related to character.
I partly agree, but his defense will never be above average because of the energy is uses on the offensive end. It's funny how all the stats never indicates the players around the player.
That bulls team had very few scorers, they had more defenders then anything, which is why the were a top defensive team. Just like allan houston was a awful defender on a top notch defensive team.
All a player has to do is know his role and fit the system, everything else falls in place. As soon as you start giving players roles they have no business being in, your basically fckd..
nixluva@ 7/20/2016 10:00 PM
The key to me isn't to focus on the things Rose did poorly. How does Hornacek get Rose to play a better brand of ball with this group??? From what I can see Rose was excellent when he was on the move with the ball. His poor shooting seems to have come primarily when he was a stand still Jump Shooter. Simply cutting down on those poor shots will easily improve his efficiency. It's a matter of focusing on the best parts of his game.
One thing I noticed when looking at Rose's game logs was that he was Extremely up and down, especially early in the year. I'm encouraged by the fact that he did find consistently good performances later in the season. The key point is that Rose wasn't inefficient in every game but rather he had some really bad games that brought his efficiency down. The poor performances could be a matter of fatigue, I don't know, but I see a lot of positives in the fact that he had a lot of very good games.
This was an interesting analysis from the season before last.
For an examination of player performance at the single-game level, Kevin Ferrigan’s DRE is a handy metric. DRE connects single game box score statistics to RAPM, creating a per 100 possession estimate of a player’s total impact. It can also be calculated across a stretch of games or an entire season. DRE was not fond of Rose last year, rating him at -2.35 for the season (0.00 represents an average level of performance). But looking at how his DRE changed based on how many days of rest he had before each game reveals a fairly wide spread.
The difference between Rose on no rest and Rose on two days of rest was 2.01 points per 100 possessions, an enormous difference in performance. On no rest, his DRE -3.45, far worse than any other player in the league who played at least 750 minutes with one team. On two days of rest, he came in at -1.46, about the same as Andrew Wiggins. Again, DRE is just one way of estimating player performance but the difference here is startling. At the team level, an margin of 2.01 points per 100 possessions works out to between five and six extra wins over the course of an 82-game season.
We shouldn't be arguing about Rose being MVP Rose.... he just needs to be the Rose he's always been. Which is the same player. He's a east to west player. Go hard to the rim. Anything else is gravy.
Bottom line, the Knicks got better. Hallelujah
we better hope that he is not the player that he has been the last few years.
Last year he was 16 and 4 in 31 mins.... if he could do that then I want that. Health is a concern but he's due to have a healthy year.... plus it's his contract year
how about if it was 16 points on 50 shots? How'd you like him then?
How about if it was 16 points on 7 shots? How'd you like him then?
man crush love!
Cartman718@ 7/21/2016 12:00 PM
dk7th wrote:
nixluva wrote:
dk7th wrote:Pretty much everything I have been saying. Thanks anyway.
Forgive me but I don't remember what you've been saying about Rose. Perhaps you could clarify your take on Rose for us.
He has been vastly overrated and in no way should have been awarded the MVP. He still has a lot to prove and I mean especially in the shot selection category. He should work on deferring to KP6 and Melo and probably in that order. Twelve shots per game and a usage of no more edthan 25%. He also has some sketchy character issues which should give you pause. He also needs to find perimeter players on his reckless forays into the lane and not merely his pickers. Lastly, he needs to show a n eagerness to defend the position because he has flat out sucked at it his entire career. Since you almost never address defense you might dwell on that, especially since an eagerness to defend tends to be closely related to character.
Sketchy character issues? You mean like JR who provided the Cavs some critical buckets in the comeback. Need to find perimeter players on his reckless forays? Other than Luol Deng, who was really a decent shooter from the outside during his best years in Chicago? Eagerness to defend the position? Would you rather have Jose? Great character but like you said "flat out sucked at it his entire career".
People do get better at defense if they want to, look at Melo. Even Jimmy Butler, its not like the way he defends now is the same as his rookie year.
Rose is 27, there's ample time and capacity for improvement. You are right about one thing...He still has a lot to prove. And why wouldn't he go about doing exactly that? Especially in a contract year.
SupremeCommander@ 7/21/2016 1:48 PM
Cartman718 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
nixluva wrote:
dk7th wrote:Pretty much everything I have been saying. Thanks anyway.
Forgive me but I don't remember what you've been saying about Rose. Perhaps you could clarify your take on Rose for us.
He has been vastly overrated and in no way should have been awarded the MVP. He still has a lot to prove and I mean especially in the shot selection category. He should work on deferring to KP6 and Melo and probably in that order. Twelve shots per game and a usage of no more edthan 25%. He also has some sketchy character issues which should give you pause. He also needs to find perimeter players on his reckless forays into the lane and not merely his pickers. Lastly, he needs to show a n eagerness to defend the position because he has flat out sucked at it his entire career. Since you almost never address defense you might dwell on that, especially since an eagerness to defend tends to be closely related to character.
Sketchy character issues? You mean like JR who provided the Cavs some critical buckets in the comeback. Need to find perimeter players on his reckless forays? Other than Luol Deng, who was really a decent shooter from the outside during his best years in Chicago? Eagerness to defend the position? Would you rather have Jose? Great character but like you said "flat out sucked at it his entire career".
People do get better at defense if they want to, look at Melo. Even Jimmy Butler, its not like the way he defends now is the same as his rookie year.
Rose is 27, there's ample time and capacity for improvement. You are right about one thing...He still has a lot to prove. And why wouldn't he go about doing exactly that? Especially in a contract year.
this is the rare time I agree with dk... "sketchy character issues" is a bit of an understatement. Have you read about the gang rape he is accused of? I'm guessing you're completely unaware of the situation considering you are comparing his character to JR's
CrushAlot@ 7/21/2016 2:34 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
nixluva wrote:
dk7th wrote:Pretty much everything I have been saying. Thanks anyway.
Forgive me but I don't remember what you've been saying about Rose. Perhaps you could clarify your take on Rose for us.
He has been vastly overrated and in no way should have been awarded the MVP. He still has a lot to prove and I mean especially in the shot selection category. He should work on deferring to KP6 and Melo and probably in that order. Twelve shots per game and a usage of no more edthan 25%. He also has some sketchy character issues which should give you pause. He also needs to find perimeter players on his reckless forays into the lane and not merely his pickers. Lastly, he needs to show a n eagerness to defend the position because he has flat out sucked at it his entire career. Since you almost never address defense you might dwell on that, especially since an eagerness to defend tends to be closely related to character.
Sketchy character issues? You mean like JR who provided the Cavs some critical buckets in the comeback. Need to find perimeter players on his reckless forays? Other than Luol Deng, who was really a decent shooter from the outside during his best years in Chicago? Eagerness to defend the position? Would you rather have Jose? Great character but like you said "flat out sucked at it his entire career".
People do get better at defense if they want to, look at Melo. Even Jimmy Butler, its not like the way he defends now is the same as his rookie year.
Rose is 27, there's ample time and capacity for improvement. You are right about one thing...He still has a lot to prove. And why wouldn't he go about doing exactly that? Especially in a contract year.
this is the rare time I agree with dk... "sketchy character issues" is a bit of an understatement. Have you read about the gang rape he is accused of? I'm guessing you're completely unaware of the situation considering you are comparing his character to JR's
There seems to be a lot to that case. It is a civil suit for 20 mil filed by a woman that he was involved with previously. Obviously there would be an effort to discredit the woman from Rose's camp but there is text stuff and a roommate etc. that at least give it the appearance that it might have been consenual. If he did it he needs to be held accountable but this isn't like a Kobe situation.
EnySpree@ 7/21/2016 2:51 PM
mreinman wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
mreinman wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
mreinman wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Good article...
We shouldn't be arguing about Rose being MVP Rose.... he just needs to be the Rose he's always been. Which is the same player. He's a east to west player. Go hard to the rim. Anything else is gravy.
Bottom line, the Knicks got better. Hallelujah
we better hope that he is not the player that he has been the last few years.
Last year he was 16 and 4 in 31 mins.... if he could do that then I want that. Health is a concern but he's due to have a healthy year.... plus it's his contract year
how about if it was 16 points on 50 shots? How'd you like him then?
How about if it was 16 points on 7 shots? How'd you like him then?
man crush love!
I don't get it....
Cartman718@ 7/21/2016 3:11 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
dk7th wrote:
nixluva wrote:
dk7th wrote:Pretty much everything I have been saying. Thanks anyway.
Forgive me but I don't remember what you've been saying about Rose. Perhaps you could clarify your take on Rose for us.
He has been vastly overrated and in no way should have been awarded the MVP. He still has a lot to prove and I mean especially in the shot selection category. He should work on deferring to KP6 and Melo and probably in that order. Twelve shots per game and a usage of no more edthan 25%. He also has some sketchy character issues which should give you pause. He also needs to find perimeter players on his reckless forays into the lane and not merely his pickers. Lastly, he needs to show a n eagerness to defend the position because he has flat out sucked at it his entire career. Since you almost never address defense you might dwell on that, especially since an eagerness to defend tends to be closely related to character.
Sketchy character issues? You mean like JR who provided the Cavs some critical buckets in the comeback. Need to find perimeter players on his reckless forays? Other than Luol Deng, who was really a decent shooter from the outside during his best years in Chicago? Eagerness to defend the position? Would you rather have Jose? Great character but like you said "flat out sucked at it his entire career".
People do get better at defense if they want to, look at Melo. Even Jimmy Butler, its not like the way he defends now is the same as his rookie year.
Rose is 27, there's ample time and capacity for improvement. You are right about one thing...He still has a lot to prove. And why wouldn't he go about doing exactly that? Especially in a contract year.
this is the rare time I agree with dk... "sketchy character issues" is a bit of an understatement. Have you read about the gang rape he is accused of? I'm guessing you're completely unaware of the situation considering you are comparing his character to JR's
There seems to be a lot to that case. It is a civil suit for 20 mil filed by a woman that he was involved with previously. Obviously there would be an effort to discredit the woman from Rose's camp but there is text stuff and a roommate etc. that at least give it the appearance that it might have been consenual. If he did it he needs to be held accountable but this isn't like a Kobe situation.
Uh yeah accused being the key word there? would we be discussing it so much if the accuser had sued for only 500K? these women after star athletes make up these numbers in their heads and say i am going with this, has there been any math provided by anyone as to how she arrived at the 20 million figure? fans see the $20mill tag and immediately think the worst.
nixluva@ 7/21/2016 3:33 PM
I can't judge a guy to be of poor character when I don't have the facts. If this was a Criminal Case i'd be much more skeptical. I don't want this thread to become all about DRose's legal issues. If someone wants to start another thread on that go ahead. Read this article on the subject and make your own thread if you want.
nixluva wrote:I can't judge a guy to be of poor character when I don't have the facts. If this was a Criminal Case i'd be much more skeptical. I don't want this thread to become all about DRose's legal issues. If someone wants to start another thread on that go ahead. Read this article on the subject and make your own thread if you want.
I think talking about what he is, could be, or should be is directly applicable to this thread. i'm not going to compartmentalize him as a player separately from who he is as an individual. what purpose does that serve other than letting me feel good about the roster? I will not do that because there are thing more important than loving the Knicks.
maybe he's not a criminal, but he's still sketchy and not someone I'd want my wife, my sister, my mother, or any of my female friends to be around. "sketchy character issues" I think is relatively tame way of putting it.
his story also sounds like bullshit to me. doesn't mean he's a rapist but seriously wtf how does this make sense:
“Rose said the woman and her friend left his home several hours later, but around 1 a.m., his friends Allen and Hampton told him they were all going over to her apartment.
Rose claimed he and his friends didn’t talk about why they were driving over there but they didn’t have to – he said he knew what was going to happen so late at night, according to the transcripts.
He said he thought Allen was going to sleep with the woman, but his only intention of going over there was to “gaze upon her.” Rose said he didn’t notice if either of his friends brought lubricant but said it would be strange if they did. He also said that he’d never participated in group sex with Hampton and Allen before.
Once they arrived, Rose said they called the woman to come let them in, and after a 15 to 20 minute wait she eventually came to open the door while wearing a pair of pajamas.
Rose admitted that he Allen and Hampton all had sex with the woman – but there was no discussion who got to go first with her. And he said the men didn’t discuss what happened after they left.
Rose admitted that he Allen and Hampton all had sex with the woman – but there was no discussion who got to go first with her. And he said the men didn’t discuss what happened after they left.”
nixluva wrote:I can't judge a guy to be of poor character when I don't have the facts. If this was a Criminal Case i'd be much more skeptical. I don't want this thread to become all about DRose's legal issues. If someone wants to start another thread on that go ahead. Read this article on the subject and make your own thread if you want.
I think talking about what he is, could be, or should be is directly applicable to this thread. i'm not going to compartmentalize him as a player separately from who he is as an individual. what purpose does that serve other than letting me feel good about the roster? I will not do that because there are thing more important than loving the Knicks.
maybe he's not a criminal, but he's still sketchy and not someone I'd want my wife, my sister, my mother, or any of my female friends to be around. "sketchy character issues" I think is relatively tame way of putting it.
his story also sounds like bullshit to me. doesn't mean he's a rapist but seriously wtf how does this make sense:
“Rose said the woman and her friend left his home several hours later, but around 1 a.m., his friends Allen and Hampton told him they were all going over to her apartment.
Rose claimed he and his friends didn’t talk about why they were driving over there but they didn’t have to – he said he knew what was going to happen so late at night, according to the transcripts.
He said he thought Allen was going to sleep with the woman, but his only intention of going over there was to “gaze upon her.” Rose said he didn’t notice if either of his friends brought lubricant but said it would be strange if they did. He also said that he’d never participated in group sex with Hampton and Allen before.
Once they arrived, Rose said they called the woman to come let them in, and after a 15 to 20 minute wait she eventually came to open the door while wearing a pair of pajamas.
Rose admitted that he Allen and Hampton all had sex with the woman – but there was no discussion who got to go first with her. And he said the men didn’t discuss what happened after they left.
Rose admitted that he Allen and Hampton all had sex with the woman – but there was no discussion who got to go first with her. And he said the men didn’t discuss what happened after they left.”
LIke I said you can create your own thread on this subject. It has nothing to do with BASKETBALL!!! You are basically moralizing on this thread which isn't about Derrick Rose's morals or lack thereof.
Kemet@ 7/21/2016 7:04 PM
Good Article ... In 2010-11 Miami Heats BIG-3 (Decision) won the MVP The aftermath Heat beat Bulls in 5 games
Im still not feeelin the Rose to Knicks trade ... The thought of the Knicks taking the extra cap money to get Noah to provide the Knicks with a BIG-man rotation for the season that consist of Noah/Lopez/KP/and Quinn to dominate the paint and glass for 82 games .. makes me wanna keep our two cheap Combo-Guards Grant/Galloway .. plus make the trade that were suppose to happen last offseason sending Calderon to the Lakers for some future 2nd rounders.
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