ChuckBuck wrote:Why you guys beefing over DRose so hard? Doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. He does somewhat decent and Knicks bow out 2nd round, Phil still won't resign him due to injury risk. Just a bad bet period. Phil has his eyes set squarely on 2017 free agency and the stacked NBA Draft. We all know Rose is as good as gone after this season.
First of all you don't know what this Knicks team will be able to do in the Playoffs. For all we know they could make the ECF's. Talent wise they have a roster that should be capable of making a serious playoff run.
As for Rose being resigned by Phil, that also is impossible to say right now. We do know that Phil isn't thinking the way you suggest cuz he's said that he hopes Rose will be here beyond next season. If Rose balls out and the Knicks get to an ECF I doubt that Phil will be reluctant to sign Rose as long as the contract meets what he feels is right. We can't know what that would be at this point. In terms of FA's that's also a tough read at this point. We've seen that top FA's don't really move that often, which is why Phil made the TRADE for Rose in the first place.
Right now Phil has the most complete team he's had as a GM/Prez. He's gonna watch how this plays out and what happens with Trade possibilities as well as the Free Agent Market, but if this team is very successful he's gonna want to keep it together. Why else commit to Noah for that many years if you have no intention of also keeping Rose?
nixluva wrote:blkexec wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:I don't know why you think anyone is suggesting Rose will have to "carry" the Knicks. My point in saying the Knicks big 3 is Rose, Melo and KP infers that they all carry part of the load so no single player is overburdened! Also dk7th, Rose is still PLENTY athletic enough for the position. Just cuz he isn't dunking as much as in the past doesn't mean he's not athletic anymore. Rose is gonna be doing what JH ALWAYS has his guards do. The same things Dragic, Bledsoe, Isaiah or Knight did. Why would we expect anything different?
Now you are kinda backtracking a bit. Yesterday you were saying melo and rose will carry most of the load
Melo and rose will control the offense.....KP will feed off of the lack of attention or mis matches down low. Everybody is saying the same things......not sure why everybody is disagreeing.
I'm the biggest KP fan in here... . said it before the draft that he has superstar potential. He killed it in his first year.. He will do the same and more in his second year. This is a triangle/horny offensive system. But that's not going to stop rose or jennings from pushing the rock. Looking for KP on lobs or melo in the corner......Rose will control the fast pace action all season. Melo will take the most shots. Both players will dominate transition and half court sets. KP is not durrant. He will have to depend on triangle half court sets and rose passing him the ball on fast breaks. What's so hard for everybody to understand.....or agree on. I love the fan enthusiasm before the season begins. But everybody is really saying the same things....
Also Rose dominated the bulls offense because he was stuck between understanding how to play like a normal guard and not rely on dunks and layups, while staying injury free.... Plus he never played with a player like melo, who he respects and will defer to......and he never played with someone like KP. My guess is rose should average the most assist in his career......proving to be a real PG and not just a scoring guard. But like melo, if he has the rock near the end of the shot clock, he's putting it up over 3 people. KP doesn't have that type of tunnel vision.....he comes from a culture of team ball.. Melo and Rose are gunners......regardless if anybody thinks it should be different, they are still gunners.....and KP is a system player (for now). That will / should change once melo steps down. Gunners usually dominate the offense, espically at the PG spot since they have the ball in their hands the most.
This pretty much all I've been saying. Plus as you pointed out Rose will get more assists with this group. I don't know how anyone could not understand what it means when I say Rose, Melo and KP are our big 3!!! Does that not indicate they will all have big roles next season? Now how they play together will follow normal and logical paths according to their skills as you said.
he is a shitty passer. how do you expect a shitty passer to get more assists from shitty passes? on the contrary, his teammates shooting percentages will go down from key areas on the floor. they'll have to gather the misguided pass, the ill-timed pass, and then be rushed.
not all passes. lobs should be better, so should finishing at the basket on breaks, which should be more plentiful with rose. but in the halfcourt? the fg% of his teammates will go down. just watch.
StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:dk7th wrote:yeah.... no. so this moron says lets build the team around rose and melo. ha ha.garbage article with a douchebag point of view. lets hope the knicks never come close to this scenario. just horrible analysis.
next.
Totally agree with this.
Bunk ass article. In no universe should Rose nor Melo be the primary option with a God in your presence...
You guys realize that it's only logical to talk about Rose and Melo as the lead of the offensive attack? This isn't to suggest that KP won't be a primary target as well. That's why they call it a Big 3. All 3 players will be the likely leaders of this team's offense.I simply can't fathom why KNICKS FANS would be so annoyed at such a logical point made in this article. It's absurd not to recognize that Rose and Melo will be expected to carry a large portion of the load and that they would look to make things easier on KP and let him build up his game naturally rather than forcing it. The more KP shows he can handle the more he'll get to do. As the 3rd option KP will not be place at any disadvantage. If his game develops faster and he can handle more then fine.
No way in hell KP is the third option. Rose isnt the same player anymore, i think he can still help us but he isnt the player he once was. Im fine if melo gets some more touches but KP should be looked at as our main weapon too
You seem to also be missing the main point. There is simply no need to FORCE things with KP. If he develops during the course of the season into a primary option along the lines of a Dirk, then nothing is going to stop the Knicks from featuring him that way. However, that has yet to be proven. He's not starting the season off with that kind of pressure. There's no need to place that kind of pressure on him either. Let it happen naturally!!! Rose and Melo are vets and already used to that kind of pressure so let them take it and allow KP to find his game without that pressure.
im not missing the point at all. I know you are a very optimistic person but i think you may be expecting too much from Rose at this point. Melo and KP should be the big guns in the offense
My optimism has NOTHING to do with my main point which is that Rose and Melo as vets with proven histories of being lead players should continue that role and let KP play off of them at least to start so that there's less pressure on KP. There is simply no reason to force things with KP. Let KP naturally take on what he's comfortable with. If he shows he is ready for more there would be no problem with letting him take it on, but no way you force it early.
I really have no idea what you ChuckBuck and dk7th are going on about when it comes to this Rose thing. Rose is not coming here to take a backseat. He's going to have a prominent role. He's the lead guard for goodness sakes. While Rose had a rough start due to the Orbital Surgery, he did start to get his game going and I suspect he's gonna come into next season raring to go in a contract year.
Melo is going to also come into next season looking to lead along with Noah and Rose. This nonsense about Rose and Melo not being up to it is crazy. The Knicks Big 3 is Rose, Melo and KP, PERIOD!!!
it's not forcing things! he's already shown he is ready for more, which translates to he's comfortable taking on more. he was a close second in rookie of the year and he ranked in the top 5 among power forwards last year. he wants the responsibility and the pressure and does not need to be coddled or brought along slowly. by doing so you are putting him behind the other two. he is a phenomenon but no-- "lets take it slow."
"we just spent 20 million dollars on a washed up player so lets make him part of our "big 3." by telling rose "it's your team because you a re the lead guard" you are actually hindering kp6's growth.
i am speaking about what we have seen while you are speaking about what we have yet to see.
Excellent Post. KP is clearly ready to take the next step without having to force it.
KP is already a primary scorer for this team but he doesn't come into the season with a history of being the #1 option which you guys are completely missing. Rose has been an MVP and leader of his team. Melo has won a scoring title and been the #1 option on his teams. KP as talented as he is, has yet to play an entire season as the primary scoring option, PERIOD!!! Now if KP shows in camp that he's ready to take on that kind of role it will be evident to Hornacek and he can adjust things as necessary. However, there's no reason to push Rose aside as if he is just some scrub we brought in to only pass the ball. Let's not get carried away with the Rose criticisms. What we needed most was an uptempo and penetrating PG. This is something that Rose does very well to this very day. Rose will pass the ball to his fellow starters. It's simply not true that he won't pass the ball to them.
im not missing any point. Ive probably played and watched just as much bball as you have. I NEVER called Rose washed up, in fact i said he will help. HOWEVER this isnt 2012 rose anymore. All those injuries have taken a toll..you would be a fool to deny that. As for KP i understand he wasnt the main option last year and in spain but that was mostly because of his age. Aftwr a successful rookie year he will be able to take the next step along side melo as our main options
I'm not just talking to you ya know! Some of what I'm writing is directed at dk7th.
Regarding Rose the injury thing is obvious but what goes underrated is just how much he still has left. You will see just how good he stil is next season. You guys can keep TALKIN him down but you're making a huge mistake.
We all know how talented KP is. The fact remains that he has yet to show he is ready to be a #1 option. There literally no reason to thrust him into that role just yet. Let him do his thing with other teams focused on Rose and Melo! He'll be able to do lots of damage that way minus unnecessary pressure. This is a good situation that many young players don't have the luxury of having.
How am i talking him down? I clearly said multiple times that he will HELP us. However he isnt the same player he was. Its not a knock just the facts of life. Im a diehard knick fan but i always try to be objective
The suggestion that Rose is not going to be a lead option along with Melo is talking him down. He's gonna have the ball in his hands a lot and both Melo and KP will benefit from his ability to push and penetrate, which he still does at an elite level.
whatever man if you think thats talking him down then i dont know what to tell you. I just think you should temper expectations with Rose. Just because he isnt a elite mvp anymore doesnt mean he isnt a good player anymore.
it's hard to have a conversation with nix because you aren't ever going to get him to concede anything, because we're all haters if we're concerned about Rose's (1) health, (2) rape trial, (3) that the players haven't played together and we don't know if it's going to work (a la Amar'e and Melo), etc.
nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:Why you guys beefing over DRose so hard? Doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. He does somewhat decent and Knicks bow out 2nd round, Phil still won't resign him due to injury risk. Just a bad bet period. Phil has his eyes set squarely on 2017 free agency and the stacked NBA Draft. We all know Rose is as good as gone after this season.
First of all you don't know what this Knicks team will be able to do in the Playoffs. For all we know they could make the ECF's. Talent wise they have a roster that should be capable of making a serious playoff run.
As for Rose being resigned by Phil, that also is impossible to say right now. We do know that Phil isn't thinking the way you suggest cuz he's said that he hopes Rose will be here beyond next season. If Rose balls out and the Knicks get to an ECF I doubt that Phil will be reluctant to sign Rose as long as the contract meets what he feels is right. We can't know what that would be at this point. In terms of FA's that's also a tough read at this point. We've seen that top FA's don't really move that often, which is why Phil made the TRADE for Rose in the first place.
Right now Phil has the most complete team he's had as a GM/Prez. He's gonna watch how this plays out and what happens with Trade possibilities as well as the Free Agent Market, but if this team is very successful he's gonna want to keep it together. Why else commit to Noah for that many years if you have no intention of also keeping Rose?
ha ha ha you're being ridiculous now. rose is on a one-year contract while noah is on a four-year contract. noah is by far more valuable to the knicks as a passing big man, a defender, a leader, and a mentor to kp6. it is a perfect fit.
and you've finally somehow answered my question. you've decided rose will have passed the one-year audition. take a close look at the language i magnified in your post. ChuckBuck is right to call it a bad bet, even it's only a year. meanwhile almost every projection model has the knicks winning between 37-45 games. ecf finals?!?
then there's this:
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:Why you guys beefing over DRose so hard? Doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. He does somewhat decent and Knicks bow out 2nd round, Phil still won't resign him due to injury risk. Just a bad bet period. Phil has his eyes set squarely on 2017 free agency and the stacked NBA Draft. We all know Rose is as good as gone after this season.
First of all you don't know what this Knicks team will be able to do in the Playoffs. For all we know they could make the ECF's. Talent wise they have a roster that should be capable of making a serious playoff run.
As for Rose being resigned by Phil, that also is impossible to say right now. We do know that Phil isn't thinking the way you suggest cuz he's said that he hopes Rose will be here beyond next season. If Rose balls out and the Knicks get to an ECF I doubt that Phil will be reluctant to sign Rose as long as the contract meets what he feels is right. We can't know what that would be at this point. In terms of FA's that's also a tough read at this point. We've seen that top FA's don't really move that often, which is why Phil made the TRADE for Rose in the first place.
Right now Phil has the most complete team he's had as a GM/Prez. He's gonna watch how this plays out and what happens with Trade possibilities as well as the Free Agent Market, but if this team is very successful he's gonna want to keep it together. Why else commit to Noah for that many years if you have no intention of also keeping Rose?
ha ha ha you're being ridiculous now. rose is on a one-year contract while noah is on a four-year contract. noah is by far more valuable to the knicks as a passing big man, a defender, a leader, and a mentor to kp6. it is a perfect fit.
and you've finally somehow answered my question. you've decided rose will have passed the one-year audition. take a close look at the language i magnified in your post. ChuckBuck is right to call it a bad bet, even it's only a year. meanwhile almost every projection model has the knicks winning between 37-45 games. ecf finals?!?
then there's this:
I pointed this out before. You are ignoring Jackson's words and actions when you talk about Rose.
“It’s about the season ahead of us,” Jackson said. “Derrick’s got a drive in him. I know he’s going to do well. It’s part of it. We’ll cross that as we go along for next year. We’d like to have him long-term. Certainly one of the great things about it.”
http://nypost.com/2016/06/24/phil-jackso...In regards to the 21 million dollar civil suit, she tried three times to file a suit against Rose but the first two lawyers would not take her case. Some of the text communications between Rose and the accuser have been released and are worth reading before you condemn Rose. I will post the link to the texts. The accuser claimed Rose and his buddies broke into her place. The texts are time stamped and she is asking him to come to her place with the belt she left in his bathroom. Rose wanted her to come to his place but she sent his driver back to get Rose to come to her place.
http://bossip.com/1303666/bossip-exclusi...
CrushAlot wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:Why you guys beefing over DRose so hard? Doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. He does somewhat decent and Knicks bow out 2nd round, Phil still won't resign him due to injury risk. Just a bad bet period. Phil has his eyes set squarely on 2017 free agency and the stacked NBA Draft. We all know Rose is as good as gone after this season.
First of all you don't know what this Knicks team will be able to do in the Playoffs. For all we know they could make the ECF's. Talent wise they have a roster that should be capable of making a serious playoff run.
As for Rose being resigned by Phil, that also is impossible to say right now. We do know that Phil isn't thinking the way you suggest cuz he's said that he hopes Rose will be here beyond next season. If Rose balls out and the Knicks get to an ECF I doubt that Phil will be reluctant to sign Rose as long as the contract meets what he feels is right. We can't know what that would be at this point. In terms of FA's that's also a tough read at this point. We've seen that top FA's don't really move that often, which is why Phil made the TRADE for Rose in the first place.
Right now Phil has the most complete team he's had as a GM/Prez. He's gonna watch how this plays out and what happens with Trade possibilities as well as the Free Agent Market, but if this team is very successful he's gonna want to keep it together. Why else commit to Noah for that many years if you have no intention of also keeping Rose?
ha ha ha you're being ridiculous now. rose is on a one-year contract while noah is on a four-year contract. noah is by far more valuable to the knicks as a passing big man, a defender, a leader, and a mentor to kp6. it is a perfect fit.
and you've finally somehow answered my question. you've decided rose will have passed the one-year audition. take a close look at the language i magnified in your post. ChuckBuck is right to call it a bad bet, even it's only a year. meanwhile almost every projection model has the knicks winning between 37-45 games. ecf finals?!?
then there's this:
I pointed this out before. You are ignoring Jackson's words and actions when you talk about Rose.
“It’s about the season ahead of us,” Jackson said. “Derrick’s got a drive in him. I know he’s going to do well. It’s part of it. We’ll cross that as we go along for next year. We’d like to have him long-term. Certainly one of the great things about it.”
http://nypost.com/2016/06/24/phil-jackso...
In regards to the 21 million dollar civil suit, she tried three times to file a suit against Rose but the first two lawyers would not take her case. Some of the text communications between Rose and the accuser have been released and are worth reading before you condemn Rose. I will post the link to the texts. The accuser claimed Rose and his buddies broke into her place. The texts are time stamped and she is asking him to come to her place with the belt she left in his bathroom. Rose wanted her to come to his place but she sent his driver back to get Rose to come to her place.
http://bossip.com/1303666/bossip-exclusi...
That's just Phil's spin zone for the media. He spun it several times during his tenure as Knicks prez. He's spun it about Derek Fisher, about Triangle, about Rambis. Here's what's really on the mind of an NBA executive that has to commit to an athlete long term:
Phil knew when to cut ties with Fish, when to cut Triangle to a more pace and space offense, to cut his best friend in favor of Horny. You dam well know if he tries to resign Rose it will be a lowball 1 or 2 year deal, and you know Reggie Rose and Derrick are looking for that 4 year last big contract for sure.
All of the stuff posted above are interesting facts. I prefer to look at what Rose should be able to do with the Knicks. The things this team needed that Rose actually does at a level we haven't seen. It's easy to only talk about his flaws but what about his strengths?
People talk about his shooting % but those numbers can be deceiving. For one thing just look at Pull Up Jumpers. Rose actually shot well on Pull Ups after the All Star break. Among guards he was one of the top players in attempts. Now look at his FG% compared to all the other top guards from 2pt range. He has a low 3pt % which lowers his eFG%, but he rarely took pull up 3pt shots compared to the other top guards.
Pull Up Shots: Any jump shot outside 10 feet where a player took 1 or more dribbles before shooting.
Player Team GP W L MIN PTS FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% eFG%
Stephen Curry GSW 29 24 5 34.8 11.6 4.2 10.0 41.7 3.2 7.6 42.5 57.9
Brandon Knight PHX 10 3 7 34.7 9.8 3.7 9.9 37.4 2.4 6.0 40.0 49.5
Chris Paul LAC 26 17 9 32.1 9.3 4.1 9.7 42.2 1.2 3.7 31.6 48.2
James Harden HOU 27 14 13 39.7 8.4 3.4 9.4 36.4 1.6 5.0 32.1 44.9
Damian Lillard POR 28 17 11 35.0 8.4 3.3 9.2 35.3 1.9 5.1 38.0 45.7
John Wall WAS 26 14 12 36.2 7.4 3.4 9.1 37.6 0.5 1.5 35.0 40.5
Kobe Bryant LAL 21 4 17 25.9 6.9 3.0 9.1 32.8 0.9 3.0 28.1 37.5
Jrue Holiday NOP 18 7 11 33.4 7.7 3.3 8.4 39.1 1.2 3.7 31.3 46.0
Kemba Walker CHA 29 21 8 35.3 7.3 2.9 8.0 35.9 1.6 4.6 35.6 46.1
Russ Westbrook OKC 26 15 11 34.5 6.9 3.0 8.0 37.0 1.0 3.5 28.6 43.3
CJ McCollum POR 28 17 11 34.3 7.1 3.2 7.6 41.6 0.8 1.9 40.4 46.5
Kyrie Irving CLE 27 17 10 33.1 6.4 2.8 7.4 38.0 0.7 2.7 27.0 43.0
Jamal Crawford LAC 26 16 10 28.0 5.6 2.4 7.1 34.1 0.8 2.5 31.3 39.5
DeMar DeRozan TOR 26 18 8 35.6 5.4 2.7 7.0 37.7 0.1 0.3 25.0 38.3
Derrick Rose CHI 21 10 11 30.9 6.4 3.1 7.0 44.5 0.2 0.7 28.6 45.9
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/...Drives: Any touch that starts at least 20 feet of the hoop and is dribbled within 10 feet of the hoop and excludes fast breaks. Measures the total number of drives as well as the points, assists and shooting percentages on drives to the basket.
Player Team GP W L MIN DRIVES FGM FGA FG% FTM FTA FT% PTS PTS% PASS PASS% AST AST% TO TO% PF PF%
Eric Bledsoe PHX 31 12 19 34.2 11.7 2.3 4.9 46.4 1.6 1.9 86.4 6.2 53.2 4.5 38.0 1.1 9.4 1.1 9.1 1.3 11.3
Isaiah Thomas BOS 81 47 34 32.2 11.7 2.6 5.8 45.4 2.4 2.9 83.7 7.6 65.2 3.8 32.7 1.0 8.9 0.7 5.9 1.9 15.8
DeMar DeRozan TOR 77 52 25 35.9 11.6 2.9 5.8 50.6 2.8 3.4 83.0 8.7 74.4 3.7 31.4 0.9 8.1 0.5 4.0 2.2 18.5
Ish Smith PHI 77 16 61 29.1 11.1 2.2 5.0 44.6 0.6 1.0 63.5 5.1 45.6 5.1 45.6 1.4 12.6 0.6 5.1 0.7 6.3
Jeff Teague ATL 79 47 32 28.5 11.1 2.4 5.2 45.7 1.7 2.0 82.9 6.4 57.5 4.0 36.3 0.9 8.3 0.8 7.0 1.2 11.1
Reggie Jackson DET 79 43 36 30.7 10.6 3.0 6.1 49.0 1.5 1.7 86.9 7.5 70.0 2.9 27.3 0.9 8.2 0.7 6.9 1.1 10.5
Tyreke Evans NOP 25 11 14 30.6 10.4 2.3 5.2 43.8 1.9 2.2 85.5 6.4 61.7 3.2 30.3 0.8 8.0 0.9 8.8 1.2 11.9
Russ Westbrook OKC 80 55 25 34.4 10.1 2.4 4.8 50.7 2.3 2.8 82.1 7.1 70.7 3.2 31.5 1.1 11.0 0.8 7.6 1.7 17.1
Rajon Rondo SAC 71 29 42 35.4 9.9 2.1 4.1 50.7 0.4 0.7 54.2 4.5 45.7 4.3 43.0 1.4 14.1 1.0 10.1 0.5 4.8
Jrue Holiday NOP 65 27 38 28.2 9.8 2.7 5.3 50.4 1.6 1.9 86.1 6.9 71.0 3.0 30.7 0.8 8.7 0.5 4.9 1.2 12.3
Damian Lillard POR 75 40 35 35.7 9.8 2.7 5.5 48.2 2.5 2.7 91.1 7.8 79.4 2.4 24.3 0.8 7.9 0.5 5.4 1.6 16.4
Kyle Lowry TOR 76 53 23 36.9 9.5 1.9 4.4 44.3 1.5 1.8 84.2 5.4 56.4 3.4 35.3 1.1 11.5 0.6 6.8 1.2 12.3
James Harden HOU 82 41 41 38.1 9.4 2.1 4.3 49.6 2.9 3.4 86.0 7.2 76.6 2.5 26.5 0.9 9.2 0.9 9.4 2.1 22.2
Goran Dragic MIA 72 44 28 32.8 9.4 1.8 3.4 52.8 0.7 1.0 70.4 4.4 46.2 4.6 48.8 1.3 14.1 0.8 8.1 0.6 6.8
Kyrie Irving CLE 53 37 16 31.5 8.9 2.7 5.3 50.7 1.1 1.3 81.2 6.5 72.3 2.5 28.3 0.6 7.2 0.4 4.4 0.9 9.9
Derrick Rose CHI 66 32 34 31.8 8.9 2.8 5.5 51.0 1.3 1.7 76.1 6.9 76.9 2.1 23.3 0.6 6.5 0.6 7.1 1.0 11.5
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/... Pick And Roll Ball Handler
FT Score And One SF TO
Player Team GP Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% Freq Freq Freq Freq Freq Percentile
Reggie Jackson DET 79 896 55.9% 0.88 785 318 715 44.5 47.6 7.9% 14.2% 7.3% 2.0% 41.3% 77.2
Damian Lillard POR 75 815 43.0% 0.92 751 259 628 41.2 47.8 11.4% 13.6% 9.6% 2.3% 40.9% 84.8
Kemba Walker CHA 81 789 46.7% 0.89 705 261 629 41.5 46.2 10.1% 10.9% 8.4% 0.9% 41.8% 80.7
Chris Paul LAC 74 749 51.9% 0.94 705 284 604 47.0 50.3 7.7% 12.6% 3.9% 0.9% 44.5% 89.0
Russ Westbrook OKC 80 722 35.4% 0.85 614 219 502 43.6 47.7 12.7% 19.9% 10.7% 2.2% 40.6% 70.7
John Wall WAS 77 721 40.2% 0.73 524 225 560 40.2 42.3 5.0% 17.9% 4.4% 0.7% 35.4% 38.3
CJ McCollum POR 80 642 37.4% 0.92 593 243 521 46.6 50.4 6.7% 13.7% 5.9% 1.6% 43.0% 85.5
Jrue Holiday NOP 65 618 51.7% 0.87 536 213 501 42.5 45.6 8.3% 12.6% 7.1% 1.9% 40.8% 75.2
James Harden HOU 82 606 25.9% 0.97 588 165 370 44.6 49.2 20.0% 21.5% 17.7% 2.6% 44.6% 91.4
DeMar DeRozan TOR 78 593 32.4% 0.99 588 214 445 48.1 48.3 17.0% 10.8% 15.3% 3.0% 49.7% 92.8
Kyle Lowry TOR 77 582 35.7% 0.86 502 171 423 40.4 46.0 12.5% 16.2% 10.8% 1.4% 40.2% 73.8
Isaiah Thomas BOS 82 568 31.0% 0.86 487 159 412 38.6 42.6 14.4% 14.6% 10.2% 1.6% 40.8% 72.8
Dennis Schroder ATL 80 568 54.4% 0.71 403 158 417 37.9 39.9 8.6% 19.4% 6.9% 1.4% 34.9% 34.8
Derrick Rose CHI 66 563 43.5% 0.84 474 207 466 44.4 44.8 7.6% 12.3% 7.3% 2.7% 41.4% 68.3
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/pl...I expect that the PnR production should improve with this roster. Rose will have much better targets around him and that will make the game easier for him and for his teammates.
"What you know is that Kristaps Porzingis, a 20-year-old rookie, had to be the second scoring option night in and night out. If he didn’t deliver, the team was in trouble. With Rose as the starting point guard, Porzingis now becomes the third scoring option in the starting line up."
"We already know that Derrick Rose is a fierce contender—a fighter with hustle and muscle on both ends of the court. The type of point guard that is not afraid to absorb contact and get easy points by going to the free throw line."
"With this kind of repertoire, Porzingis will have the ability to rely on more experienced playmakers. The type of players who can perform consistently on a nightly basis. Derrick Rose will allow Kristaps to grow as they rely on each other to put points on the board."
"Let us not forget about Carmelo Anthony. After long pleads to the front office for some scoring help, it has finally arrived."
http://dailyknicks.com/2016/06/24/knicks...
More garbage. Just inept reasoning. Begging the question at its best. Why such a stupid assumption.
dk7th wrote:More garbage. Just inept reasoning. Begging the question at its best. Why such a stupid assumption.
Why in the world is it a stupid assumption? It's the most logical thing to do when you have a young stud and he's placed in a more comfortable situation because you have talented vets around him. The thing is that KP is still going to be taking a lot of shots as one of the big 3 on this team. He's one of the top scoring options but he won't have to force things as some young players are forced to do with less talent and experience around them. KP can play smart, team ball and that is a good thing.
nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:More garbage. Just inept reasoning. Begging the question at its best. Why such a stupid assumption.
Why in the world is it a stupid assumption? It's the most logical thing to do when you have a young stud and he's placed in a more comfortable situation because you have talented vets around him. The thing is that KP is still going to be taking a lot of shots as one of the big 3 on this team. He's one of the top scoring options but he won't have to force things as some young players are forced to do with less talent and experience around them. KP can play smart, team ball and that is a good thing.
simple yes/no question: do you want rose to take more shots than kp6? yes or no
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:More garbage. Just inept reasoning. Begging the question at its best. Why such a stupid assumption.
Why in the world is it a stupid assumption? It's the most logical thing to do when you have a young stud and he's placed in a more comfortable situation because you have talented vets around him. The thing is that KP is still going to be taking a lot of shots as one of the big 3 on this team. He's one of the top scoring options but he won't have to force things as some young players are forced to do with less talent and experience around them. KP can play smart, team ball and that is a good thing.
simple yes/no question: do you want rose to take more shots than kp6? yes or no
This is a STUPID question, because Rose, Melo and KP are most likely going to have the most shot attempts per game which is how it should be.
2015-16
Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA ▾
1 Derrick Rose 27 66 66 31.8 6.8 15.9
2 Jimmy Butler 26 67 67 36.9 7.0 15.4
3 Pau Gasol 35 72 72 31.8 6.5 13.8
4 Nikola Mirotic 24 66 38 24.9 3.8 9.2 2014-15
Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA ▾
1 Derrick Rose 26 51 51 30.0 6.6 16.4
2 Pau Gasol 34 78 78 34.4 7.3 14.8
3 Jimmy Butler 25 65 65 38.7 6.5 14.0
4 Aaron Brooks 30 82 21 23.0 4.2 10.0
If you think KP, Melo and Lee won't get shots you're seriously mistaken. For one thing Rose respects these guys and that will always lead to more passes. There will be PLENTY of shots to go around next season. Higher tempo quicker shots. It all adds up to more shots for everyone.
No matter how much you try to talk down Rose it's not gonna work.
nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:More garbage. Just inept reasoning. Begging the question at its best. Why such a stupid assumption.
Why in the world is it a stupid assumption? It's the most logical thing to do when you have a young stud and he's placed in a more comfortable situation because you have talented vets around him. The thing is that KP is still going to be taking a lot of shots as one of the big 3 on this team. He's one of the top scoring options but he won't have to force things as some young players are forced to do with less talent and experience around them. KP can play smart, team ball and that is a good thing.
simple yes/no question: do you want rose to take more shots than kp6? yes or no
This is a STUPID question, because Rose, Melo and KP are most likely going to have the most shot attempts per game which is how it should be. 2015-16
Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA ▾
1 Derrick Rose 27 66 66 31.8 6.8 15.9
2 Jimmy Butler 26 67 67 36.9 7.0 15.4
3 Pau Gasol 35 72 72 31.8 6.5 13.8
4 Nikola Mirotic 24 66 38 24.9 3.8 9.2 2014-15
Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA ▾
1 Derrick Rose 26 51 51 30.0 6.6 16.4
2 Pau Gasol 34 78 78 34.4 7.3 14.8
3 Jimmy Butler 25 65 65 38.7 6.5 14.0
4 Aaron Brooks 30 82 21 23.0 4.2 10.0
If you think KP, Melo and Lee won't get shots you're seriously mistaken. For one thing Rose respects these guys and that will always lead to more passes. There will be PLENTY of shots to go around next season. Higher tempo quicker shots. It all adds up to more shots for everyone.
No matter how much you try to talk down Rose it's not gonna work.
It is a stupid question. Hornacek's teams have had their point guards shoot more than his forwards. Frye averaged 10 shots a game for Hornacek that first year. KP gets more shots than 10 a game and has a bigger role than Frye but I would anticipate Hornacek having Rose shoot more.
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:More garbage. Just inept reasoning. Begging the question at its best. Why such a stupid assumption.
Why in the world is it a stupid assumption? It's the most logical thing to do when you have a young stud and he's placed in a more comfortable situation because you have talented vets around him. The thing is that KP is still going to be taking a lot of shots as one of the big 3 on this team. He's one of the top scoring options but he won't have to force things as some young players are forced to do with less talent and experience around them. KP can play smart, team ball and that is a good thing.
simple yes/no question: do you want rose to take more shots than kp6? yes or no
This is a STUPID question, because Rose, Melo and KP are most likely going to have the most shot attempts per game which is how it should be. 2015-16
Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA ▾
1 Derrick Rose 27 66 66 31.8 6.8 15.9
2 Jimmy Butler 26 67 67 36.9 7.0 15.4
3 Pau Gasol 35 72 72 31.8 6.5 13.8
4 Nikola Mirotic 24 66 38 24.9 3.8 9.2 2014-15
Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA ▾
1 Derrick Rose 26 51 51 30.0 6.6 16.4
2 Pau Gasol 34 78 78 34.4 7.3 14.8
3 Jimmy Butler 25 65 65 38.7 6.5 14.0
4 Aaron Brooks 30 82 21 23.0 4.2 10.0
If you think KP, Melo and Lee won't get shots you're seriously mistaken. For one thing Rose respects these guys and that will always lead to more passes. There will be PLENTY of shots to go around next season. Higher tempo quicker shots. It all adds up to more shots for everyone.
No matter how much you try to talk down Rose it's not gonna work.
It is a stupid question. Hornacek's teams have had their point guards shoot more than his forwards. Frye averaged 10 shots a game for Hornacek that first year. KP gets more shots than 10 a game and has a bigger role than Frye but I would anticipate Hornacek having Rose shoot more.
PLUS Rose is going to be put in great position to score early on fast breaks and in PnR in this offense. As a scoring PG that handles the ball it's obvious that Rose has more opportunity to score the ball. That said Rose is not going to ignore Melo, KP and Lee. That's simply not going to happen. There's no proof that such a thing has any chance of happening.
If Rose gets more shots than KP, it's a stupid hire and stupid offense. PERIOD.
Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.
KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.
Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.
ChuckBuck wrote:If Rose gets more shots than KP, it's a stupid hire and stupid offense. PERIOD.Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.
KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.
Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.
What is logical is that Rose is going to be one of the top 3 shot takers along with Melo and KP. Obviously it's highly likely that Melo and KP could end up taking slightly more or slightly less but it's going to be close. As I posted above Rose and his other top scorers on the Bulls the last 2 years were close in scoring. This is a NON ISSUE!!!
nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:If Rose gets more shots than KP, it's a stupid hire and stupid offense. PERIOD.Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.
KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.
Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.
What is logical is that Rose is going to be one of the top 3 shot takers along with Melo and KP. Obviously it's highly likely that Melo and KP could end up taking slightly more or slightly less but it's going to be close. As I posted above Rose and his other top scorers on the Bulls the last 2 years were close in scoring. This is a NON ISSUE!!!
it's an issue: the dynamic of the knicks MUST BE in service of developing kp6, and allowing him to go as far as HE wants to go. kp6 is the present and future of this franchise; rose is here merely to serve that end. if rose ends up being self serving and taking more shots than kp6-- a distinct possibility-- the knicks will underachieve. chuckbuck is absolutely spot on. the knicks and hornacek should have a battle plan in place with such a definitive talent. he needs no coddling or "protection" from overrated one-year audition players. let kp6 be all he can be and wants to be RIGHT NOW.
almost every team has two players taking the lion's share of the shots and then there's a SIGNIFICANT drop-off for third. i know this because i have researched it.
so, one more chance: do you want rose taking more shots than kp6? it's a yes/no question. do have the stones to answer the question?
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:If Rose gets more shots than KP, it's a stupid hire and stupid offense. PERIOD.Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.
KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.
Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.
What is logical is that Rose is going to be one of the top 3 shot takers along with Melo and KP. Obviously it's highly likely that Melo and KP could end up taking slightly more or slightly less but it's going to be close. As I posted above Rose and his other top scorers on the Bulls the last 2 years were close in scoring. This is a NON ISSUE!!!
it's an issue: the dynamic of the knicks MUST BE in service of developing kp6, and allowing him to go as far as HE wants to go. kp6 is the present and future of this franchise; rose is here merely to serve that end. if rose ends up being self serving and taking more shots than kp6-- a distinct possibility-- the knicks will underachieve. chuckbuck is absolutely spot on. the knicks and hornacek should have a battle plan in place with such a definitive talent. he needs no coddling or "protection" from overrated one-year audition players. let kp6 be all he can be and wants to be RIGHT NOW.
almost every team has two players taking the lion's share of the shots and then there's a SIGNIFICANT drop-off for third. i know this because i have researched it.
so, one more chance: do you want rose taking more shots than kp6? it's a yes/no question. do have the stones to answer the question?
That's pretty much the whole argument dk7th and I have. As long as Rose plays his role and keeps his mouth shut and doesn't overstep it, and doesn't come out the Knicks gate pretending to be 2011 NBA MVP Rose chucking up 20 shots a game, the Knicks offense and morale should be okay. If he tries too hard to earn that last big payday for himself and his prick brother Reggie, then we in trouble, and the lockerroom will be one big cancerverse.
ChuckBuck wrote:dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:If Rose gets more shots than KP, it's a stupid hire and stupid offense. PERIOD.Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.
KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.
Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.
What is logical is that Rose is going to be one of the top 3 shot takers along with Melo and KP. Obviously it's highly likely that Melo and KP could end up taking slightly more or slightly less but it's going to be close. As I posted above Rose and his other top scorers on the Bulls the last 2 years were close in scoring. This is a NON ISSUE!!!
it's an issue: the dynamic of the knicks MUST BE in service of developing kp6, and allowing him to go as far as HE wants to go. kp6 is the present and future of this franchise; rose is here merely to serve that end. if rose ends up being self serving and taking more shots than kp6-- a distinct possibility-- the knicks will underachieve. chuckbuck is absolutely spot on. the knicks and hornacek should have a battle plan in place with such a definitive talent. he needs no coddling or "protection" from overrated one-year audition players. let kp6 be all he can be and wants to be RIGHT NOW.
almost every team has two players taking the lion's share of the shots and then there's a SIGNIFICANT drop-off for third. i know this because i have researched it.
so, one more chance: do you want rose taking more shots than kp6? it's a yes/no question. do have the stones to answer the question?
That's pretty much the whole argument dk7th and I have. As long as Rose plays his role and keeps his mouth shut and doesn't overstep it, and doesn't come out the Knicks gate pretending to be 2011 NBA MVP Rose chucking up 20 shots a game, the Knicks offense and morale should be okay. If he tries too hard to earn that last big payday for himself and his prick brother Reggie, then we in trouble, and the lockerroom will be one big cancerverse.
exactly, and these roles should be pre-established based on a plan, an agenda-- NOT on some cockamamie "history" of a dude on a one-year contract. a "scoring point guard" is the kiss of death in terms of shot distribution.
rose's numbers are very bad as a shooter who takes as many shots as he does: about 17 shots a game, 42% between 3 feet and the 3 point line. he only makes layups 50% of the time. his usage vs. assist rate is a ghastly .88:1 which is not near point guard territory.
the recipe for success for rose is
1) taking an average of 12 shots a game, only good shots. those 5 extra bad shots should be going to kp6 and melo.
2) his usage should be well below 25%. 28% is too high for his lack of efficiency, and 4 or 5 fewer percentage points would indicate his ability to properly share the ball
3) he should average 6-7 assists a game.
if he achieves these numbers he will be doing his job!
dk7th wrote:nixluva wrote:ChuckBuck wrote:If Rose gets more shots than KP, it's a stupid hire and stupid offense. PERIOD.Rose should ideally be 3rd banana, averaging 12-14 shots tops, and serving as transition pusher and pick and pop partner to KP. Rose should also take advantage of his chemistry with Noah on backdoor cuts to the hoop in the half court.
KP/Melo should be top of the food chain as far as the Knicks offense are concerned. Both should have plenty of opportunities taking turns, with Melo sometimes leading the Knicks and sometimes KP shouldering the load. Should be a 1 and 1a situation with touches depending on the match-up.
Sometimes it'll be advantageous for Melo at 4, sometimes KP will have a clear edge at the 4. Either way, Rose's inefficient ass should not be hoisting bricks up like he's the first option.
What is logical is that Rose is going to be one of the top 3 shot takers along with Melo and KP. Obviously it's highly likely that Melo and KP could end up taking slightly more or slightly less but it's going to be close. As I posted above Rose and his other top scorers on the Bulls the last 2 years were close in scoring. This is a NON ISSUE!!!
it's an issue: the dynamic of the knicks MUST BE in service of developing kp6, and allowing him to go as far as HE wants to go. kp6 is the present and future of this franchise; rose is here merely to serve that end. if rose ends up being self serving and taking more shots than kp6-- a distinct possibility-- the knicks will underachieve. chuckbuck is absolutely spot on. the knicks and hornacek should have a battle plan in place with such a definitive talent. he needs no coddling or "protection" from overrated one-year audition players. let kp6 be all he can be and wants to be RIGHT NOW.
almost every team has two players taking the lion's share of the shots and then there's a SIGNIFICANT drop-off for third. i know this because i have researched it.
so, one more chance: do you want rose taking more shots than kp6? it's a yes/no question. do have the stones to answer the question?
Nobody wants rose to take more shots than kp. Just like nobody wants to see melo in too many Iso plays. Unfortunately you are in fairy tale land. Rose is looking for a new contract. And the way they play rose is to back off of him, and force him to shoot wide open jumpers. If your telling me that rose should pass up open shots, then this convo is a waste of time. You think Jennings is coming off the bench to force feed kp? Please..... These guys will play their game.....kp must learn how to play with alpha dogs.....u don't win championship's unless you have a team full of talent. Kp will impact the game regardless.....basketball is more than just shot attempts.....Phil is teaching kp how to win.....not how to shoot. What a bad question. It doesn't solve anything! I rather see rose play to win......just like everybody else.....PERIOD.
1st off the fact is that Rose has NOT taken too many shots over the last 2 years, relative to his teammates!
2015-16
Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA ▾
1 Derrick Rose 27 66 66 31.8 6.8 15.9
2 Jimmy Butler 26 67 67 36.9 7.0 15.4
3 Pau Gasol 35 72 72 31.8 6.5 13.8
4 Nikola Mirotic 24 66 38 24.9 3.8 9.2 2014-15
Rk Player Age G GS MP FG FGA ▾
1 Derrick Rose 26 51 51 30.0 6.6 16.4
2 Pau Gasol 34 78 78 34.4 7.3 14.8
3 Jimmy Butler 25 65 65 38.7 6.5 14.0
4 Aaron Brooks 30 82 21 23.0 4.2 10.0
Shooting percentages can be somewhat deceiving if you look at the overall numbers and not at exactly how a player takes shots.
From NBA Sports Vu stats:
Rose averaged 8.9 Drives per game at 51.0%
Rose averaged 7 Pull Up Jumpers per game at 44.5%, 0.7 of those were 3pt shots at 28%, making his eFG% 45.9%.
Rose averaged 1.7 Catch and Shoot Jumpers per game at 33.6% of those 1.5 were from 3pt range at 33.0%, making his eFG% 48.3% on Catch and Shoot.
So what you are looking at is a player that looks a lot less efficient if you look at his overall shooting but the bulk of his game is not dominated by those inefficient shots.
Also Rose was an active PnR Ball Handler
Pick And Roll Ball Handler
FT Score And One SF TO
Player Team GP Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% Freq Freq Freq Freq Freq Percentile
Reggie Jackson DET 79 896 55.9% 0.88 785 318 715 44.5 47.6 7.9% 14.2% 7.3% 2.0% 41.3% 77.2
Damian Lillard POR 75 815 43.0% 0.92 751 259 628 41.2 47.8 11.4% 13.6% 9.6% 2.3% 40.9% 84.8
Kemba Walker CHA 81 789 46.7% 0.89 705 261 629 41.5 46.2 10.1% 10.9% 8.4% 0.9% 41.8% 80.7
Chris Paul LAC 74 749 51.9% 0.94 705 284 604 47.0 50.3 7.7% 12.6% 3.9% 0.9% 44.5% 89.0
Russ Westbrook OKC 80 722 35.4% 0.85 614 219 502 43.6 47.7 12.7% 19.9% 10.7% 2.2% 40.6% 70.7
John Wall WAS 77 721 40.2% 0.73 524 225 560 40.2 42.3 5.0% 17.9% 4.4% 0.7% 35.4% 38.3
CJ McCollum POR 80 642 37.4% 0.92 593 243 521 46.6 50.4 6.7% 13.7% 5.9% 1.6% 43.0% 85.5
Jrue Holiday NOP 65 618 51.7% 0.87 536 213 501 42.5 45.6 8.3% 12.6% 7.1% 1.9% 40.8% 75.2
James Harden HOU 82 606 25.9% 0.97 588 165 370 44.6 49.2 20.0% 21.5% 17.7% 2.6% 44.6% 91.4
DeMar DeRozan TOR 78 593 32.4% 0.99 588 214 445 48.1 48.3 17.0% 10.8% 15.3% 3.0% 49.7% 92.8
Kyle Lowry TOR 77 582 35.7% 0.86 502 171 423 40.4 46.0 12.5% 16.2% 10.8% 1.4% 40.2% 73.8
Isaiah Thomas BOS 82 568 31.0% 0.86 487 159 412 38.6 42.6 14.4% 14.6% 10.2% 1.6% 40.8% 72.8
Dennis Schroder ATL 80 568 54.4% 0.71 403 158 417 37.9 39.9 8.6% 19.4% 6.9% 1.4% 34.9% 34.8
Derrick Rose CHI 66 563 43.5% 0.84 474 207 466 44.4 44.8 7.6% 12.3% 7.3% 2.7% 41.4% 68.3
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/pl...
