Knicks · Where the heck is Hillary Clinton? (page 227)

BRIGGS wrote:

djsunyc wrote:i think there's a large contingent of trump voters that KNOW things aren't going to get better for them so they would rather see others suffer as well.

Wow man. Dude keep busy and stop thinking too much.

it's the anger vote. some people just understand their jobs aren't coming back so they voted out of anger for a man that divided the country up in races.

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:TPP Dead, Trump not even in office yet. Just took a visit to the White House. Good sign of things to come.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/11/politi...

Any of you see his tax reform plan? I've never seen anything like that regarding tax reform. We will see how much he gets done. Benefits people and companies.
Instead of trickle down economics, it looks like trickle up.

Snippet

Key Findings:
Mr. Trump’s tax plan would substantially lower individual income taxes and the corporate income tax and eliminate a number of complex features in the current tax code.
Mr. Trump’s plan would cut taxes by $11.98 trillion over the next decade on a static basis. However, the plan would end up reducing tax revenues by $10.14 trillion over the next decade when accounting for economic growth from increases in the supply of labor and capital.
The plan would also result in increased outlays due to higher interest on the debt, creating a ten-year deficit somewhat larger than the estimates above.
According to the Tax Foundation’s Taxes and Growth Model, the plan would significantly reduce marginal tax rates and the cost of capital, which would lead to an 11 percent higher GDP over the long term provided that the tax cut could be appropriately financed.
The plan would also lead to a 29 percent larger capital stock, 6.5 percent higher wages, and 5.3 million more full-time equivalent jobs.
The plan would cut taxes and lead to higher after-tax incomes for taxpayers at all levels of income.

Snippet

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details...

What amazes me is that Republicans care about deficits and debt until they win the presidency..How are they going to pay for that..Weren't you asking me be about debt just a few day ago???

Read it. But for starters people spend more, our GDP goes up and there is the tax money. (edit - I meant to add with taxes from consumer spending, as we all will have more money. Companies will too and they will hire more.) That is closer to how taxes were supposed to work (except back then there was no tax on labor.) Now they tax everything.

So what happened to Reagan and George Bush when they cut taxes and blew a massive hole into the budget and created massive deficits??..Where are all the phantom money that everyone was support to see from tax cuts...You get into office and deficits don't matter anymore then next you say it the democrats fault...The biggest spending presidents were Reagan and Bush then you tell people it was the Democrats and they believe it..Even you believe it...

You don't think any of the things Trump talked about doing will be accomplished or do you not believe they will help offset tax cuts?

Such as ending the Syrian refugees program and funding for anchor babies, clean energy funding, NATO payments, etc.

I would imagine these things should provide some additional savings/funding for the US...

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

The framers of the Constitution were afraid of a democracy (mob rule), that is the point. We are a Constitutional Republic. Slaves or no slaves, not the point.
Point about a few States essentially electing a president still stands.

You can argue that the system needs to be updated, sure, I am for that. But that would require a lot of discussion and finally agreement.

Mob rule?? What does that even mean??...I posted an article from Time Mag a few pages ago about how the electoral college came about...Do yourself a favor and read...And please do direct me to write ups about mob rule...

Ron Paul understands the constitution quite well.

The Electoral College vs. Mob Rule

November 1, 2004
[size=3]
Tuesday’s presidential election is likely to be relatively close, at least in terms of popular vote totals. Should either candidate win the election but lose the overall popular vote, we will be bombarded with calls to abolish the electoral college, just as we were after the contested 2000 presidential election. After all, the pundits will argue, it would be “undemocratic” to deny the presidency to the man who received the most votes.

This argument is hostile to the Constitution, however, which expressly established the United States as a constitutionally limited republic and not a direct democracy. The Founding Fathers sought to protect certain fundamental freedoms, such as freedom of speech, against the changing whims of popular opinion. Similarly, they created the electoral college to guard against majority tyranny in federal elections. The president was to be elected by the 50 states rather than the American people directly, to ensure that less populated states had a voice in national elections. This is why they blended electoral college votes between U.S. House seats, which are based on population, and U.S. Senate seats, which are accorded equally to each state. The goal was to balance the inherent tension between majority will and majority tyranny. Those who wish to abolish the electoral college because it’s not purely democratic should also argue that less populated states like Rhode Island or Wyoming don’t deserve two senators.

A presidential campaign in a purely democratic system would look very strange indeed, as any rational candidate would focus only on a few big population centers. A candidate receiving a large percentage of the popular vote in California, Texas, Florida, and New York, for example, could win the presidency with very little support in dozens of other states. Moreover, a popular vote system would only intensify political pandering, as national candidates would face even greater pressure than today to take empty, middle-of-the-road, poll-tested, mainstream positions. Direct democracy in national politics would further dilute regional differences of opinion on issues, further narrow voter choices, and further emasculate political courage.

Those who call for the abolition of the electoral college are hostile to liberty. Not surprisingly, most advocates of abolition are statist elites concentrated largely on the east and west coasts. These political, economic, academic, media, and legal elites overwhelmingly favor a strong centralized federal government, and express contempt for the federalist concept of states’ rights. They believe in omnipotent federal power, with states acting as mere glorified federal counties carrying out commands from Washington.

The electoral college threatens the imperial aims of these elites because it allows the individual states to elect the president, and in many states the majority of voters still believe in limited government and the Constitution. Voters in southern, midwestern, and western states- derided as “flyover” country-- tend to value family, religion, individual liberty, property rights, and gun rights. Washington elites abhor these values, and they hate that middle and rural America hold any political power whatsoever. Their efforts to discredit the electoral college system are an open attack on the voting power of the pro-liberty states.

Sadly, we have forgotten that states created the federal government, not the other way around. The electoral college system represents an attempt, however effective, to limit federal power and preserve states’ rights. It is an essential part of our federalist balance. It also represents a reminder that pure democracy, mob rule, is incompatible with liberty.[/size=4]

http://ronpaulquotes.com/Texas_Straight_...

Fancy words and utter BS. The electoral college does the exact thing it set out to prevent. Instead of letting larger states with people in them to be represented by the government it allows a handful of smaller swing states to decide the election. This doesn't make democracy incompatible with liberty because thereally is nothing in what he wrote that leads to that conclusion. Its just white noise wrapped in fancy jargon. If Clinton had won PA and MI and lost Wisconsin and NH the two districts in Maine and Nevada would be deciding who is president. Real brilliant work by the founding fathers.

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:The DNC looks like it's going FULL THROTTLE for the Progressive wing. Bernie, Warren, Ellis etc. This is going to be very interesting to watch develop. IMO this was a long time coming but the Hillary failure was necessary to make it possible. There will also be some new blood coming in I expect. The youth will have more of a voice.

Not going to read anything into these till I see the centrist/right wing thrown out of the party or rendered completely impotent, like GOP elites were rendered by the tea party. We need grass roots movements to take over and clean house and rid us of this bloodsucking parasitic or cancerous growth that Billary represented.

Well the most prominent old heads of the DNC are pretty much done at this point. Almost by default we're going to be seeing the top player left take charge. That's all the Progressive Wing people. Think about it. In terms of the most vocal and popular people you have Warren and Bernie right at the top. There is no one else who has the clout to assume control. The Progressive Wing is ascendant.

Trump transition team.....

Pence is chair, Christie, Gen Flynn, Dr. Carson, Newt, and Guliani. Britbart Bannon, and the Trump kids.
Alex Jones will have a place in Trumps world. True Deplorable.

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:The DNC looks like it's going FULL THROTTLE for the Progressive wing. Bernie, Warren, Ellis etc. This is going to be very interesting to watch develop. IMO this was a long time coming but the Hillary failure was necessary to make it possible. There will also be some new blood coming in I expect. The youth will have more of a voice.

Not going to read anything into these till I see the centrist/right wing thrown out of the party or rendered completely impotent, like GOP elites were rendered by the tea party. We need grass roots movements to take over and clean house and rid us of this bloodsucking parasitic or cancerous growth that Billary represented.

Well the most prominent old heads of the DNC are pretty much done at this point. Almost by default we're going to be seeing the top player left take charge. That's all the Progressive Wing people. Think about it. In terms of the most vocal and popular people you have Warren and Bernie right at the top. There is no one else who has the clout to assume control. The Progressive Wing is ascendant.

If you want Ellison to be chair, I've seen this petition:
https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/make...

Howard Dean plans to run again. I'm not sure how the position is decided.

gr33d wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:TPP Dead, Trump not even in office yet. Just took a visit to the White House. Good sign of things to come.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/11/politi...

Any of you see his tax reform plan? I've never seen anything like that regarding tax reform. We will see how much he gets done. Benefits people and companies.
Instead of trickle down economics, it looks like trickle up.

Snippet

Key Findings:
Mr. Trump’s tax plan would substantially lower individual income taxes and the corporate income tax and eliminate a number of complex features in the current tax code.
Mr. Trump’s plan would cut taxes by $11.98 trillion over the next decade on a static basis. However, the plan would end up reducing tax revenues by $10.14 trillion over the next decade when accounting for economic growth from increases in the supply of labor and capital.
The plan would also result in increased outlays due to higher interest on the debt, creating a ten-year deficit somewhat larger than the estimates above.
According to the Tax Foundation’s Taxes and Growth Model, the plan would significantly reduce marginal tax rates and the cost of capital, which would lead to an 11 percent higher GDP over the long term provided that the tax cut could be appropriately financed.
The plan would also lead to a 29 percent larger capital stock, 6.5 percent higher wages, and 5.3 million more full-time equivalent jobs.
The plan would cut taxes and lead to higher after-tax incomes for taxpayers at all levels of income.

Snippet

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details...

What amazes me is that Republicans care about deficits and debt until they win the presidency..How are they going to pay for that..Weren't you asking me be about debt just a few day ago???

Read it. But for starters people spend more, our GDP goes up and there is the tax money. (edit - I meant to add with taxes from consumer spending, as we all will have more money. Companies will too and they will hire more.) That is closer to how taxes were supposed to work (except back then there was no tax on labor.) Now they tax everything.

So what happened to Reagan and George Bush when they cut taxes and blew a massive hole into the budget and created massive deficits??..Where are all the phantom money that everyone was support to see from tax cuts...You get into office and deficits don't matter anymore then next you say it the democrats fault...The biggest spending presidents were Reagan and Bush then you tell people it was the Democrats and they believe it..Even you believe it...

You don't think any of the things Trump talked about doing will be accomplished or do you not believe they will help offset tax cuts?

Such as ending the Syrian refugees program and funding for anchor babies, clean energy funding, NATO payments, etc.

I would imagine these things should provide some additional savings/funding for the US...

The republican answer for offsetting big tax cuts for the rich and increase military spending is that it will spur growth which it never has...It didn't spur growth with Reagan and didn't spur growth with Bush..We got left with a giant debt bill which then blamed Democrats for..Under Bush's multiple tax cut for the rich, he met a surplus after Clinton and blew a 11 trillion dollar hole in our debt...Add to that, he left us with a massive recession which blew another 5 trillion hole in the debt..Republicans are now saying that it was Obama's fault that our debt is now hovering around 19 trillion dollars...

So trump has also proposed a 1 trillion dollar infrastructure spending bill on top of the other proposals...Will he build a Wall and who will pay for it??..You won't touch NAFTA because we are winning there..That was campaign hogwash...One reason he would suspend NATO payments is because he is probably helping Russia after they delivered him an election..But it will make us less safe in the process because we will have less international intelligence...Let's see him spin magic, I'll be watching...

Trump to keep parts of Obamacare..The back peddling begins...

holfresh wrote:Trump to keep parts of Obamacare..The back peddling begins...

Maybe he'll nominate Merrick Garland!!!

I've been looking at the Trump tax cuts (they affect everyone and companies) and this is really going to stimulate the economy. Everyone will have more money to spend now. Glance down at that chart. Everyone in the USA can really benefit.) A lot of people who really can use the money will have it as will companies. The latter can hire more people. (Going from 35% to 15%! WE can start putting pressure on them to come home, heck, now they might want to.) Hopefully companies start giving more full time work, so Americans don't have to work multiple part time jobs, with often no benefits, to make ends meat. A lot of good can come from this.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details...

earthmansurfer wrote:I've been looking at the Trump tax cuts (they affect everyone and companies) and this is really going to stimulate the economy. Everyone will have more money to spend now. Glance down at that chart. Everyone in the USA can really benefit.) A lot of people who really can use the money will have it as will companies. The latter can hire more people. (Going from 35% to 15%! WE can start putting pressure on them to come home, heck, now they might want to.) Hopefully companies start giving more full time work, so Americans don't have to work multiple part time jobs, with often no benefits, to make ends meat. A lot of good can come from this.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details...

Answer one question, If the debts grows as a result of these moves, will you own it???..16 trillion of the current debt is Bush...Will you own the debt going forward???

earthmansurfer wrote:I've been looking at the Trump tax cuts (they affect everyone and companies) and this is really going to stimulate the economy. Everyone will have more money to spend now. Glance down at that chart. Everyone in the USA can really benefit.) A lot of people who really can use the money will have it as will companies. The latter can hire more people. (Going from 35% to 15%! WE can start putting pressure on them to come home, heck, now they might want to.) Hopefully companies start giving more full time work, so Americans don't have to work multiple part time jobs, with often no benefits, to make ends meat. A lot of good can come from this.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details...

Do you know what happened the last time they tried this?

earthmansurfer wrote:I've been looking at the Trump tax cuts (they affect everyone and companies) and this is really going to stimulate the economy. Everyone will have more money to spend now. Glance down at that chart. Everyone in the USA can really benefit.) A lot of people who really can use the money will have it as will companies. The latter can hire more people. (Going from 35% to 15%! WE can start putting pressure on them to come home, heck, now they might want to.) Hopefully companies start giving more full time work, so Americans don't have to work multiple part time jobs, with often no benefits, to make ends meat. A lot of good can come from this.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details...

You sound like we all did when Isaiah Thomas first took over as GM

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Trump to keep parts of Obamacare..The back peddling begins...

Maybe he'll nominate Merrick Garland!!!

Supreme court is red meat to his base..I think he goes all conservative there...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:Trump to keep parts of Obamacare..The back peddling begins...

Maybe he'll nominate Merrick Garland!!!

Supreme court is red meat to his base..I think he goes all conservative there...

Does he care what they think anymore? So is repealing Obamacare and he just backpedaled. But you might be right. No one knows what he'll do.

holfresh wrote:

gr33d wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:TPP Dead, Trump not even in office yet. Just took a visit to the White House. Good sign of things to come.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/11/politi...

Any of you see his tax reform plan? I've never seen anything like that regarding tax reform. We will see how much he gets done. Benefits people and companies.
Instead of trickle down economics, it looks like trickle up.

Snippet

Key Findings:
Mr. Trump’s tax plan would substantially lower individual income taxes and the corporate income tax and eliminate a number of complex features in the current tax code.
Mr. Trump’s plan would cut taxes by $11.98 trillion over the next decade on a static basis. However, the plan would end up reducing tax revenues by $10.14 trillion over the next decade when accounting for economic growth from increases in the supply of labor and capital.
The plan would also result in increased outlays due to higher interest on the debt, creating a ten-year deficit somewhat larger than the estimates above.
According to the Tax Foundation’s Taxes and Growth Model, the plan would significantly reduce marginal tax rates and the cost of capital, which would lead to an 11 percent higher GDP over the long term provided that the tax cut could be appropriately financed.
The plan would also lead to a 29 percent larger capital stock, 6.5 percent higher wages, and 5.3 million more full-time equivalent jobs.
The plan would cut taxes and lead to higher after-tax incomes for taxpayers at all levels of income.

Snippet

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details...

What amazes me is that Republicans care about deficits and debt until they win the presidency..How are they going to pay for that..Weren't you asking me be about debt just a few day ago???

Read it. But for starters people spend more, our GDP goes up and there is the tax money. (edit - I meant to add with taxes from consumer spending, as we all will have more money. Companies will too and they will hire more.) That is closer to how taxes were supposed to work (except back then there was no tax on labor.) Now they tax everything.

So what happened to Reagan and George Bush when they cut taxes and blew a massive hole into the budget and created massive deficits??..Where are all the phantom money that everyone was support to see from tax cuts...You get into office and deficits don't matter anymore then next you say it the democrats fault...The biggest spending presidents were Reagan and Bush then you tell people it was the Democrats and they believe it..Even you believe it...

You don't think any of the things Trump talked about doing will be accomplished or do you not believe they will help offset tax cuts?

Such as ending the Syrian refugees program and funding for anchor babies, clean energy funding, NATO payments, etc.

I would imagine these things should provide some additional savings/funding for the US...

The republican answer for offsetting big tax cuts for the rich and increase military spending is that it will spur growth which it never has...It didn't spur growth with Reagan and didn't spur growth with Bush..We got left with a giant debt bill which then blamed Democrats for..Under Bush's multiple tax cut for the rich, he met a surplus after Clinton and blew and 11 trillion dollar hole in our debt...Add to that, he left us with a massive recession which blew another 5 trillion hole in the debt..Republicans are now saying that it was Obama's fault that our deficit is now hovering around 19 trillion dollars...

So trump has also proposed a 1 trillion dollar infrastructure spending bill on top of the other proposals...Will he build a Wall and who will pay for it??..You won't touch NAFTA because we are winning there..That was campaign hogwash...One reason he would suspend NATO payments is because he is probably helping Russia after they delivered him an election..But it will make us less safe in the process because we will have less international intelligence...Let's see him spin magic, I'll be watching...

Trump was selling his Snake Oil and they bought it just like all these other Republicans. They're great at tricking the voters into believing them. Their typical trick is to do everything to mess things up under Democrat Presidents. Obstruction and negative Rhetoric. Slow downs, Sequesters, Debt Ceiling battles. All of which cost money and JOBS. Once they've done enough damage the voters blame the Dems even tho things always improve under Dems, despite all the tricks Republicans use to make things worse.

We've been saying this all along. Trump is gonna do what all Republican Presidents do... CUT TAXES and RUN UP THE DEBT! The Economy, the Poor and Middle Class do better under Democratic Presidents. Despite all the Republican efforts to wreck things.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/28/these_5_...

I thought this was about discussion, but that can't happen, just attacks and negative questions.
This thread is turning into a trial.

At least war with Russia is off the table. See if you can last the whole video and try to smile....

earthmansurfer wrote:I thought this was about discussion, but that can't happen, just attacks and negative questions.
This thread is turning into a trial.

At least war with Russia is off the table. See if you can last the whole video and try to smile....

It was never on the table,both sides would have too much to lose. America only attacks small impoverished countries

Forget politics as usual--the Trump factor.

Of course hes going to keep a part of Obamacare and 15mm illegals are going no where. You negotiate high and then fall in the middle. This way both sides are happy and you get jobs done--you remove gridlock. This guy is a high energy business machine. Hes going to produce. So stop with the guy is racist leader of the KKK cant talk to my daughter about it--sit back and watch the art of the deal come to life for the USA. Hes going to make all the people in the US white black Chinese Hispanic very happy. Hes a narcissist and he wants his legacy--this guy wants to really improve America--it was so easy to see. those calling him a fraud will get their arses handed to them again. You watch what I say--this guy will end uo the best President in our lifetimes.

There are some charts on the website that the article refers to...

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/why_...

Why the White Working Class Rebelled: Neoliberalism Is Killing Them (Literally)

By Juan Cole

The Democratic Party has been the Establishment for eight years, and the Clintons have arguably been the Establishment for 24 years. Since the late 1990s, members of the white working class with high school or less have seen their life-chances radically decline, even to the point where they are dying at much higher rates than they have a right to expect.

A year ago Anne Case and Angus Deaton, Princeton University economists, published a study with the startling finding that since 1999 death rates have been going up for white Americans aged 45-54. It is even worse than it sounds, since death rates were declining for the general population.

One of the big reasons for this increased death rate has been increased use of opiods and other drugs, leading to overdoses, along with liver disease from drinking too much alcohol and increased suicide rates. The problems were especially acute among working class and rural whites with only high school or less, and later studies found that they extended to younger members of this social class in their 20s and 30s. Loss of good-paying manufacturing jobs was clearly a primary reason for this despair.

Compared to 1999, white workers, according to another recent study in the Commonwealth Foundation: “have lower incomes, fewer are employed, and fewer are married.” This study found other causes for the increased death rates than just the ones mentioned above, but didn’t deny the Princeton findings. Here is their chart:

The only comparison I can think of to this situation is what happened to Russians in the 1990s after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Russian Federation had a population of nearly 150 million in 1990 and thereafter fell to about 144 million. The end of the Soviet Union caused their confidence in the future to collapse and the end of the old economic system created very high unemployment. They stopped having children and drank themselves to death.

Neoliberalism– putting the market in charge of social policy and actually encouraging industries to move abroad for higher profit margins (but for fewer industrial jobs at home)– had much the same effect on the white working class as the fall of the Soviet system had on the Russian working class. Look at what happened to the proportion of the US economy accounted for by industry when Neoliberal policies became dominant:

h/t MinnPost

People who argue that the working class in the US is coddled, with too many benefits and is too well-paid infuriate me. German workers have good benefits and pay, and German industry is thriving in a way that American industry is not. It is about the overall policies enacted by the government.

And consider these conclusions of Mark Levinson of the Congressional Research Service:

The United States’ share of global manufacturing activity declined fro m 28% in 2002, following the end of the 2001 U.S. recession, to 16.5% in 2011. Since then, the U.S. share has risen to 17.2%. These estimates are based on the value of each country’s manufacturing in U.S. dollars; part of the decline in the U.S. share was due to a 23% decline in the value of the dollar between 2002 and 2011, and part of the rise since 2011 is attributable to a stronger dollar.

China displaced the United States as the largest manufacturing country in 2010. Again, part of China’s rise by this measure has been due to the appreciation of its currency, the renminbi, against the U.S. dollar.

Manufacturing output, measured in each country’s local currency adjusted for inflation, has grown more slowly in the United States over the past decade than in China, Japan, Germany, and Mexico.

And among the prime operators of the Neoliberal system were the Clintons.

There is an intervening irony. The one thing that helped working class whites with their increasing health problems was Obamacare. But that help was blunted by the Republican statehouses that refused to support it. So some of the rage of the workers about Obamacare was connived at by the GOP, which didn’t want them to have health care in the first place. (The GOP only really represents big business, which didn’t want to pay for it).

The rage of these workers accounted for the unpredictability of the 2016 election, since they voted in very large numbers for Donald Trump. (There were lots of other constituencies for Trump, but many of them were longstanding GOP groups; the white working class mostly voted Democratic). What appealed to them in Trump’s message was

1. protectionism and slamming trade partners like China and Japan, which Trump and his audience saw as having gained unfair advantages

2. Attacks on NAFTA and TPP and making an issue of industries and jobs lost to Mexico and China.

3. Attacks on Hillary Clinton over her massively well paid speeches to the big banks on Wall Street, whose shenanigans had cost many in the white working class their homes.

4. Anti-immigrant sentiment, the sense of losing jobs and cultural supremacy to incoming workers.

The Democratic Party’s refusal to do anything about Wall Street mega-fraud in 2009 and after came home to roost. In other words, the Clintons were inextricably entangled in the very policies that white workers saw as having ruined their lives. And objectively speaking, they weren’t wrong.

And the white working class punished the Democratic Party for not being a Left party.