Knicks · Article: New York Knicks have a tremendous starting lineup! (page 2)
blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
What is so hard to believe? Rose doesn't have as far to improve as you're making it sound. Once he recovered from his Orbital Surgery Rose played pretty well.
Noah should be fine after a long rest for his knees due to the Shoulder surgery. They both seem primed for bounce back seasons.
mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096
Lance: .062
Sasha: .060
It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?
shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?
It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
mreinman wrote:shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.
DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that
martin wrote:mreinman wrote:shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.
DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before that
Perhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?
Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.
nixluva wrote:IMO some players are stat stuffers that look great on paper but when you watch them in games they don't really drive the action and aren't go to guys in the Crunch time when you need a basket. We know for a fact that Rose can be a go to guy in crunch time. We know Rose can initiate offense. He's not an efficient shooter like Jose but he can impact a game unlike Jose. If you go only by the stats you can often miss the intangible ways a player impacts a team or game. Lance Thomas wasn't a Stat Star but his impact was definitely very real when you watched Knicks games. Once he went down the team lost a lot of the presence he brought.
I remember you posting many WS charts last year. This year not so much ... because of Rose?
You certainly need the eye test to measure the outliers, however .013 speaks for itself. Its called puke.
mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.
DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before thatPerhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?
Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.
Well call me old school. I haven't got up to speed with these analytical stats yet. And I'm an engineer by trade looking for a job..... So I better catch up. Plus I haven't looked at drose that close last year because I never thought we had a chance to get him. But I know what he brings to the table. And like Lance stated, rose is a dog like melo and noah... player to go along with the other fighters we already have.
But since these stats are picking up steam I will now do my homework and investigate. I figured since rose was able to play 67 games and put up decent stats, it was better than the 10 games he played the yr before and sat all season. Now entering a contract year, he has something to prove. Before he tried to prove that he was the same MVP player, came back too early. Then he proved that he can play more that 10 games without getting hurt.....Is it fair to compare or analyze a players stat when they are recovering from physical and mental injuries? Or when they have a different role between the bulls and the Knicks? Just asking......
blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.
DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before thatPerhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?
Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.
Well call me old school. I haven't got up to speed with these analytical stats yet. And I'm an engineer by trade looking for a job..... So I better catch up. Plus I haven't looked at drose that close last year because I never thought we had a chance to get him. But I know what he brings to the table. And like Lance stated, rose is a dog like melo and noah... player to go along with the other fighters we already have.
But since these stats are picking up steam I will now do my homework and investigate. I figured since rose was able to play 67 games and put up decent stats, it was better than the 10 games he played the yr before and sat all season. Now entering a contract year, he has something to prove. Before he tried to prove that he was the same MVP player, came back too early. Then he proved that he can play more that 10 games without getting hurt.....Is it fair to compare or analyze a players stat when they are recovering from physical and mental injuries? Or when they have a different role between the bulls and the Knicks? Just asking......
Fair post ...
I am not saying if its fair or unfair but stats people don't assume that things will that much different from their previous few years. Can he be better? Of course, he can't get worse. Will he go from bottom of the league to average? He can but I would not bet on it.
He is a curious experiment being that he went from MVP to practically homeless and now trying to resurrect his career. The problem with him is that he can't shoot and he can't just rely on the freaky freaky athleticism that he once had. He has to now because a smart, settled and efficient player, basically completely change his game.
I know that guys like Nix are certain that it will happen and he will give you 100 reasons why it could but until he does it on the court, I am not sold or betting on him.
Lets also not forget that his defense is hardenesque so its not like he has that to fall back on.
mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.
DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before thatPerhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?
Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.
Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.
This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.
mreinman wrote:nixluva wrote:IMO some players are stat stuffers that look great on paper but when you watch them in games they don't really drive the action and aren't go to guys in the Crunch time when you need a basket. We know for a fact that Rose can be a go to guy in crunch time. We know Rose can initiate offense. He's not an efficient shooter like Jose but he can impact a game unlike Jose. If you go only by the stats you can often miss the intangible ways a player impacts a team or game. Lance Thomas wasn't a Stat Star but his impact was definitely very real when you watched Knicks games. Once he went down the team lost a lot of the presence he brought.I remember you posting many WS charts last year. This year not so much ... because of Rose?
You certainly need the eye test to measure the outliers, however .013 speaks for itself. Its called puke.
Don't be silly. I did those lists to look at Free Agents to fill out the roster. We aren't looking for Free Agents right now are we??? We have our roster and at the end of the year we can see how this team did and compare how they all did statistically. I will probably do another list later in the season as it becomes relevant. Right now it's too early to be doing such a list.
With regard to Rose did you look at my other thread showing how well he played against All Star PG's? Why not comment on that thread and see if you have anything to add to that conversation. Did we have a PG that could do that against top PG's? IF you haven't taken a look at it please do.
Season Age Tm Pos G WS/48
2008-09 20 CHI PG 81 .078
2009-10 21 CHI PG 78 .100
2010-11 22 CHI PG 81 .208
2011-12 23 CHI PG 39 .211
2013-14 25 CHI PG 10 -0.036
2014-15 26 CHI PG 51 .038
2015-16 27 CHI PG 66 .009
Career 406 .106
Either way, he's definitely going in the opposite direction you'd want.
martin wrote:mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.
DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before thatPerhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?
Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.
Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.
This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.
So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!
Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.
WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.
If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.
mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.
DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before thatPerhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?
Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.
Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.
This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.
So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!
Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.
WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.
If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.
Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!
nixluva wrote:mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:shinmen wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:he really really doesn't. He was GOOD player last year. The problem is what we have seen with many Knick teams in the past, we bring in good players when we need them to be great. Rose was not good enough to be the leading scorer, shot taker and ball handler for that Bulls team last year and they were average. Bulls needed MVP Rose to be a good team. Instead they just got a good player who tried to be an MVP and they were an average team. Saying Rose was not a good player last year is false is just not true. Rose isn't a good MVP player? He is.blkexec wrote:mreinman wrote:blkexec wrote:nixluva wrote:EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:Malcolm wrote:I'm still waiting to see some evidence that Rose can play effectively in the
Triangle.That's the bottom line for this team.
I don't know why this keeps coming up, but Rose played some Triangle under Thibs in Chicago! He most certainly can run Pinch Post Dribble Handoffs as he has many times with Noah. People talk as if these basic concepts are going to be foreign to Rose. Rose doesn't play off the ball a lot but he has done it before.Malcolm wrote:If Knicks don't score often enough in transition to justify the Rose trade,
then things can get ugly chemistry-wise.Anthony will be okay with transition-first modification of the Triangle as
long as it's producing points -- Rose getting "his" points.
Just so we're clear, The Triangle was ALWAYS a Transition 1st offense. That really isn't a modification.Learn the seven dimensions of a sound offense
By Phil Jackson and Tex Winter
Seven Principles of the Sound OffenseAn effective offense, to my way of thinking, features the following dimensions.
1. Penetration. Players must penetrate the defense, and the best way to do this is the fast break, because basketball is a full-court game, from baseline to baseline.
>snip<
Finally, I want the offense to flow from rebound to fast break, to quick offense, to a system of offense. The defenses in the NBA are so good because the players are so big, quick, and well coached. Add the pressure that the 24-second clock rule applies to the offense to find a good shot, and the defense gets even better.
Malcolm wrote:But if Rose isn't effective in that, then he's got to make some marvelous
transformation into a world class Triangle guard to help Anthony get "his"
points.I'm waiting to see that . . .
Melo can score PERIOD. He doesn't need Triangle or anything in particular to score. He proved this in Denver, under MDA and Woodson and on the Olympic Team. He'll be just fine in Hornacek's schemes.I tell you Nixluva if you weren't here I don't know what this forum would be like. Guys want to be ignorant. Guys want to talk negative just because that's the real reason they follow the team. The negativity is their true passion.
For me all that matters is right now and the future. Can't change the past. This group is much more well thought out in addition to the improvement in talent. There are fewer holes IMO. The top 7 players are all solid IMO. The bench is full of unproven talent but they do have talent.
What caught my attention was Hornacek saying he wasn't going to use a Platoon system. That has always bothered me. I prefer a rotation that tries to make sure you always have some of your starting quality players on the floor. With a solid top 7 players Hornacek should have no trouble being able to do that. When you have less talent then it becomes much harder to set rotations that are effective. I think we have just enough talent to make it work.
Every year, I am optimistic about this team.....But thats just me being a fan and hoping for the best (glass half full). But this year, there's no need to stretch the true. We actually have a solid 8 this year, if you count at least 1 bench player out side of the 7, will step up. Could be KOQ, Willy or Mindy, who's already putting in volunteer work. With a solid 8, you will always have a solid team on the floor....
1. Melo
2. KP
3. Rose
4. Noah
5. Lee
6. Jennings
7. Thomas
8. K O'Quinn, Mindy, WillyThe bench is not a weakness, when surrounded by 8 solid NBA players, stars and potential super star (KP).
you are just assuming that Rose will completely turn it around and that Noah will be healthy. Huge question marks. If those two things happen, of course we will be solid.
I understand your fear with rose and Noah......and yes I'm assuming they will be healthy. But there's reason for optimism. Noah has a history of playing hurt....Hes a energy guy and banger like the old school Knicks. So usually energy guys who play defense and pass are glue guys who doesn't rely on an offensive skill set. And I will give the Knicks the benefit of doubt that we check him out physically before giving him a 4 yr contract. On top of that, hes back in his normal starting role and he can teach KP to eventually become the starting center. Then he's playing on a team he grew up watching.....that's enough motivation alone to last this season. If he turns into amari.... OK.....that's the risk we take. But don't forget amari carried this franchise his first year....and we never had a young replacement like KP back then. So there was good reason to be pessimistic. Not the same situation now with KP.
Rose also has something to prove and we have Jennings as a backup. Rose is also years removed from knee surgery..... Not months. And his knee held up for a full season. Room for optimism.
In general every team and fan has injury concerns and worries and fears. If lebron goes down, cavs are toast. Lebron has been injury free, but that doesn't mean he can't get injured.....kyrie played less games than rose last year, but nobody is saying anything about him. Health is a part of the game. But motivation and chemistry is something that's just as valuable if not more.
At the end of the day, KP will benefit from playing with so much talent around him.... Teaching him how to prepare and become one of the NBA elites. Its a win......win. Gotta give Phil his props. And ive never been a huge Phil supporter.
No one is questioning Noah's motivation. He is as good as they get in regards to heart and determination. The question is, will he hold up.
Rose on the other hand, even if he holds up (big if), he has not been a good player over the last few years when healthy. Now I know Nix can post numerous charts citing month x's that were ok but he has a ton to prove on the court if he could actually be a good player again.
I think people are taking Rose MVP talent for granted. Just because he's not playing at an MVP level anymore, doesn't mean he's trash...lol...It means he's still better than the average NBA player (compared to Jose who was below the average)....And the more he gets healthy, the better he will perform. Last year was a great year for Rose, compared to his previous years. Each year, he's going to get healthier and healthier.....We got Rose at the best price and the best time you can get a former 27yr old MVP. This year, the Knicks will be able to beat any team in the NBA. Next year is a different story, but this year, everybody will be coming into training camp healthy and motivated. It's hard for me to complain about that, especially as a long time suffering knick fan. I can say with confidence that this year we will compete. Thats all I can ask for.
Crazy to me how people these days can get away with saying that Rose was a good player last year, he was complete trash!
I know that some of you old schoolers are stuck on the eye test but get with the times! This guy had a WS48 of .013! You can't get worse. What am I missing? His defense?
I genuinely don't understand this stat. If we compare WS48 of some of our players last year, it really doesn't translate the eye test at all.
KP: .102
Calderon: .096Lance: .062
Sasha: .060It would mean that KP brought just a bit more to the team than Calderon and Lance brought as much as Sasha.
Is it really a good indicator of the quality of a player?It is an overall excellent indicator for offense, not for defense. Calderon is a very efficient player on offense but does not have a high usage and plays zero defense. Sasha sucks. Lance was good for part of the year and sucked for another part. KP was not efficient and is still young so that will rise and it is common for young players to be low until they figure out how to maximize their efficiency.
Of course, just like any stat there will always be outliers.
No way to mask a .013 unless you are mr peaches himself.
Hard to quantify that this stat means much or at least it needs more explanation.
DWade: .103 this past year
DWade: .086 the year before thatPerhaps wade had 2 inefficient subpar years (look at his TS and compare it to his good years). How about looking at how wade did in his prime good years to better assess and understand the stat?
Also, look at the top 100 in ws48 and you will see a pretty solid list.
Carderon had a pretty subpar season too and yet he and Wade are within statistical margins of each other and yet we both know that their respective impact on the offensive side are worlds apart.
This stat may be decent for the top 25 but irrelevant or not relevant when comparing players in different situations. It's a stat and stats need perspective and insight and don't hold too much water in a vacuum.
So with 5 minutes of research and one comparison you just judged and concluded that a stat that is considered the gold standard by most including (I would assume) our coach is irrelevant? C'mon ... you can do better than that!
Of course with any stats you will find many out liars. You will also find many diamonds in the rough and will have an idea when to sign and not sign a player.
WS48 could have clearly told you to stay away from Afflalo. That Kyle Lowry had major potential. That Phil Jackson was making terrible moves and was a clueless GM. That Jeff Hornacek was an extremely underrated player. That Iverson was horribly overrated and fooled by extreme eye candy. That John Stockton was so so underrated.
If you used WS48 and completely ignored your eyes and blindly managed a team vs. ignoring the stat, you probably would do twice as good with your eyes closed. The stat is actually quite consistent and players are extremely aware of it and know that it will affect their $$.
Not all Win Shares are created equal. How a player achieves his Win share total will be different from another player and as a GM is building his team he may have a need for a specific set of skills and pass on a player that shows a higher WS/48 in the interest of building a proper team. That GM may also factor in intangibles to a much higher degree than WS/48. As in the case of a player like Lance Stephenson for example. Kevin Love has a nice WS/48 but my eyeballs tell me I don't want him!!!
Kevin Love is a good player but his WS has been on a steady decline playing out of position with lebron. I definitely would want him on my team but I also worry about his defense and his health.
GM's factor in many advanced stats that we are not even privy to. Teams like the spurs are all in with this stuff. Hopefully one day the knicks will come around.