Off Topic · OT: Family of Charlotte Shooting Victim Releases Video! (page 2)
nixluva wrote:The thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that it doesn't seem like there was an effort to de-escalate the situation. What was the reason why they pulled guns on this man in the 1st place? Apparently Mr. Scott was just minding his business waiting for his kid to be dropped off. Why were plain clothed Cops there to begin with and how did they end up focusing on him just sitting in his car? There are just too many details missing at this point. The police need to give a clear picture of how this all started so it's not so unclear.It really seems like another case of cops behaving like they're god on the streets and can do and say whatever they want to people and if you don't comply they have your life in their hands. And too many folks are OK with it until it happens to someone close to them.
I agree with you other point, I have yet to hear why they were interacting with him in the first place. Could've been they were effing with him and he figured "here we go again" with the cops.
Welpee wrote:nixluva wrote:The thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that it doesn't seem like there was an effort to de-escalate the situation. What was the reason why they pulled guns on this man in the 1st place? Apparently Mr. Scott was just minding his business waiting for his kid to be dropped off. Why were plain clothed Cops there to begin with and how did they end up focusing on him just sitting in his car? There are just too many details missing at this point. The police need to give a clear picture of how this all started so it's not so unclear.It really seems like another case of cops behaving like they're god on the streets and can do and say whatever they want to people and if you don't comply they have your life in their hands. And too many folks are OK with it until it happens to someone close to them.I agree with you other point, I have yet to hear why they were interacting with him in the first place. Could've been they were effing with him and he figured "here we go again" with the cops.
You seem to really have a good idea of how this should have been handled. Where did you get your experience dealing with noncompliant armed people?
izybx wrote:Welpee wrote:nixluva wrote:The thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that it doesn't seem like there was an effort to de-escalate the situation. What was the reason why they pulled guns on this man in the 1st place? Apparently Mr. Scott was just minding his business waiting for his kid to be dropped off. Why were plain clothed Cops there to begin with and how did they end up focusing on him just sitting in his car? There are just too many details missing at this point. The police need to give a clear picture of how this all started so it's not so unclear.It really seems like another case of cops behaving like they're god on the streets and can do and say whatever they want to people and if you don't comply they have your life in their hands. And too many folks are OK with it until it happens to someone close to them.I agree with you other point, I have yet to hear why they were interacting with him in the first place. Could've been they were effing with him and he figured "here we go again" with the cops.
You seem to really have a good idea of how this should have been handled. Where did you get your experience dealing with noncompliant armed people?
The question should be where did those cops get their training? How are cops in every city trained and what is the best set of practices that can help to reduce escalated interactions. I can tell you that they did NOT practice the best tactics in this case. Often in most of these shooting cases the BEST practices were not used. Often the cops were TOO CLOSE and put themselves in a situation where only one outcome was most likely.
nixluva wrote:izybx wrote:Welpee wrote:nixluva wrote:The thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that it doesn't seem like there was an effort to de-escalate the situation. What was the reason why they pulled guns on this man in the 1st place? Apparently Mr. Scott was just minding his business waiting for his kid to be dropped off. Why were plain clothed Cops there to begin with and how did they end up focusing on him just sitting in his car? There are just too many details missing at this point. The police need to give a clear picture of how this all started so it's not so unclear.It really seems like another case of cops behaving like they're god on the streets and can do and say whatever they want to people and if you don't comply they have your life in their hands. And too many folks are OK with it until it happens to someone close to them.I agree with you other point, I have yet to hear why they were interacting with him in the first place. Could've been they were effing with him and he figured "here we go again" with the cops.
You seem to really have a good idea of how this should have been handled. Where did you get your experience dealing with noncompliant armed people?
The question should be where did those cops get their training? How are cops in every city trained and what is the best set of practices that can help to reduce escalated interactions. I can tell you that they did NOT practice the best tactics in this case. Often in most of these shooting cases the BEST practices were not used. Often the cops were TOO CLOSE and put themselves in a situation where only one outcome was most likely.
They didn't exercise the best tactics? I'm just saying, how do you know? How do you know they weren't doing exactly what they should have done in such a situation? Nix, do you have any experience or training in these types of circumstances? Does anyone here?
izybx wrote:nixluva wrote:izybx wrote:Welpee wrote:nixluva wrote:The thing that bothers me about this whole thing is that it doesn't seem like there was an effort to de-escalate the situation. What was the reason why they pulled guns on this man in the 1st place? Apparently Mr. Scott was just minding his business waiting for his kid to be dropped off. Why were plain clothed Cops there to begin with and how did they end up focusing on him just sitting in his car? There are just too many details missing at this point. The police need to give a clear picture of how this all started so it's not so unclear.It really seems like another case of cops behaving like they're god on the streets and can do and say whatever they want to people and if you don't comply they have your life in their hands. And too many folks are OK with it until it happens to someone close to them.I agree with you other point, I have yet to hear why they were interacting with him in the first place. Could've been they were effing with him and he figured "here we go again" with the cops.
You seem to really have a good idea of how this should have been handled. Where did you get your experience dealing with noncompliant armed people?
The question should be where did those cops get their training? How are cops in every city trained and what is the best set of practices that can help to reduce escalated interactions. I can tell you that they did NOT practice the best tactics in this case. Often in most of these shooting cases the BEST practices were not used. Often the cops were TOO CLOSE and put themselves in a situation where only one outcome was most likely.They didn't exercise the best tactics? I'm just saying, how do you know? How do you know they weren't doing exactly what they should have done in such a situation? Nix, do you have any experience or training in these types of circumstances? Does anyone here?
Seems like you do. Please give us your best assessment.
Put your gun away so you can talk to him? So he can kill you? And your wife and kids can bury you and tell people about how you got yourself killed but it was worth it because you cared more about being sensitive then being alive? What's next, someone going to ask why they didn't shoot the gun out of his hands? Hey they do it in the movies right?
Drives me crazy. You have no idea how dangerous a situation that is. Lives are taken by decisions that take a microsecond to make. You guys have the luxury to sit safely at home and second guess things. All they know is that the guy has a gun and isn't dropping it. You know why? Because he is thinking about killing you! Rational people don't behave this way! Convicted violent felons do!
Stop trying to manufacture social injustice, it's ridiculous at this point. We have to cherry pick stories from across the globe now to fit this narrative. Now people are saying cops planted a gun. Smh. You think cops drive around with guns to plant on people? You guys have no idea.
izybx wrote:We have a career criminal, with a long history of violence, who is armed and not complying. What can you do as a cop on the scene. Get more distance? Why? A handgun is lethal to hundereds of meters! Back up to the point where he can escape? So he can shoot up a daycare, or a mall, or his wife?Put your gun away so you can talk to him? So he can kill you? And your wife and kids can bury you and tell people about how you got yourself killed but it was worth it because you cared more about being sensitive then being alive? What's next, someone going to ask why they didn't shoot the gun out of his hands? Hey they do it in the movies right?
Drives me crazy. You have no idea how dangerous a situation that is. Lives are taken by decisions that take a microsecond to make. You guys have the luxury to sit safely at home and second guess things. All they know is that the guy has a gun and isn't dropping it. You know why? Because he is thinking about killing you! Rational people don't behave this way! Convicted violent felons do!
Stop trying to manufacture social injustice, it's ridiculous at this point. We have to cherry pick stories from across the globe now to fit this narrative. Now people are saying cops planted a gun. Smh. You think cops drive around with guns to plant on people? You guys have no idea.
OK I can tell you that I come for a LONG TIME military and Law enforcement family. From the Civil War all the way up to Afghanistan. My dad is a retired NY Police Lieutenant, who also taught at the Academy and my Uncle was an NYPD Chief, the highest ranking African American. I have a LIFETIME of stories about tough situations. All I can say is that even my Dad and Uncle had run ins with Police when they were not on duty. This isn't new. It's just more exposed due to Camera Phones and more Media.
It seems to me that there are many situations where deadly force can't be avoided, but far too many times where it could be avoided. We're not saying that we know for sure in this situation since NO ONE has a clear idea of exactly what happened in charlotte. The way the officials are handling this is not instilling confidence tho. In general confrontations between Police and African Americans is out of balance with how things go down with other races. Surely you can understand that there is a real problem.
Nix, how would you have handled this situation?
izybx wrote:Your dad having training is not the same. You have ZERO experience or training. ZERO. So in you mind you try to fit this incident into things you understand. You have never stopped anyone, never fought a criminal, never chased a bad guy. You have never done police work! So how can you even begin to understand the decision. Along process that goes into deciding to use deadly physical force?Nix, how would you have handled this situation?
Generally speaking, you didn't find his response fairly measured? I don't want to put words into Nix's mouth but it seems like all he was doing and/or wondering is, given the lack of knowing more, could the situation been de-esculated/handled differently so that a death could have been avoided.
martin wrote:izybx wrote:Your dad having training is not the same. You have ZERO experience or training. ZERO. So in you mind you try to fit this incident into things you understand. You have never stopped anyone, never fought a criminal, never chased a bad guy. You have never done police work! So how can you even begin to understand the decision. Along process that goes into deciding to use deadly physical force?Nix, how would you have handled this situation?
Generally speaking, you didn't find his response fairly measured? I don't want to put words into Nix's mouth but it seems like all he was doing and/or wondering is, given the lack of knowing more, could the situation been de-esculated/handled differently so that a death could have been avoided.
Nix is a total gentleman. I don't mean to come across as confrontational. In a situation like this, where a person presents an immediate threat of serious physical injury or death, the way the situation ends will be determined by the armed man. If he drops the gun, he lives, if he doesn't, he will probably get shot. They used a taser on him, which in my opinion was a poor decision. but they tried. After that, there's nothing that can be done.
izybx wrote:martin wrote:izybx wrote:Your dad having training is not the same. You have ZERO experience or training. ZERO. So in you mind you try to fit this incident into things you understand. You have never stopped anyone, never fought a criminal, never chased a bad guy. You have never done police work! So how can you even begin to understand the decision. Along process that goes into deciding to use deadly physical force?Nix, how would you have handled this situation?
Generally speaking, you didn't find his response fairly measured? I don't want to put words into Nix's mouth but it seems like all he was doing and/or wondering is, given the lack of knowing more, could the situation been de-esculated/handled differently so that a death could have been avoided.
Nix is a total gentleman. I don't mean to come across as confrontational. In a situation like this, where a person presents an immediate threat of serious physical injury or death, the way the situation ends will be determined by the armed man. If he drops the gun, he lives, if he doesn't, he will probably get shot. They used a taser on him, which in my opinion was a poor decision. but they tried. After that, there's nothing that can be done.
I'm confused, they used a taser in the Charlotte shooting too? I thought that was just the Tulsa shooting.
I haven't watched the video from the OP, just read a transcript. Just don't feel like it.
izybx wrote:martin wrote:izybx wrote:Your dad having training is not the same. You have ZERO experience or training. ZERO. So in you mind you try to fit this incident into things you understand. You have never stopped anyone, never fought a criminal, never chased a bad guy. You have never done police work! So how can you even begin to understand the decision. Along process that goes into deciding to use deadly physical force?Nix, how would you have handled this situation?
Generally speaking, you didn't find his response fairly measured? I don't want to put words into Nix's mouth but it seems like all he was doing and/or wondering is, given the lack of knowing more, could the situation been de-esculated/handled differently so that a death could have been avoided.
Nix is a total gentleman. I don't mean to come across as confrontational. In a situation like this, where a person presents an immediate threat of serious physical injury or death, the way the situation ends will be determined by the armed man. If he drops the gun, he lives, if he doesn't, he will probably get shot. They used a taser on him, which in my opinion was a poor decision. but they tried. After that, there's nothing that can be done.
Fair enough and well said
DrAlphaeus wrote:izybx wrote:martin wrote:izybx wrote:Your dad having training is not the same. You have ZERO experience or training. ZERO. So in you mind you try to fit this incident into things you understand. You have never stopped anyone, never fought a criminal, never chased a bad guy. You have never done police work! So how can you even begin to understand the decision. Along process that goes into deciding to use deadly physical force?Nix, how would you have handled this situation?
Generally speaking, you didn't find his response fairly measured? I don't want to put words into Nix's mouth but it seems like all he was doing and/or wondering is, given the lack of knowing more, could the situation been de-esculated/handled differently so that a death could have been avoided.
Nix is a total gentleman. I don't mean to come across as confrontational. In a situation like this, where a person presents an immediate threat of serious physical injury or death, the way the situation ends will be determined by the armed man. If he drops the gun, he lives, if he doesn't, he will probably get shot. They used a taser on him, which in my opinion was a poor decision. but they tried. After that, there's nothing that can be done.
I'm confused, they used a taser in the Charlotte shooting too? I thought that was just the Tulsa shooting.
I haven't watched the video from the OP, just read a transcript. Just don't feel like it.
I could be mixed up. I thought I read that, but maybe it is Tulsa that I was reading about
izybx wrote:martin wrote:izybx wrote:Your dad having training is not the same. You have ZERO experience or training. ZERO. So in you mind you try to fit this incident into things you understand. You have never stopped anyone, never fought a criminal, never chased a bad guy. You have never done police work! So how can you even begin to understand the decision. Along process that goes into deciding to use deadly physical force?Nix, how would you have handled this situation?
Generally speaking, you didn't find his response fairly measured? I don't want to put words into Nix's mouth but it seems like all he was doing and/or wondering is, given the lack of knowing more, could the situation been de-esculated/handled differently so that a death could have been avoided.
Nix is a total gentleman. I don't mean to come across as confrontational. In a situation like this, where a person presents an immediate threat of serious physical injury or death, the way the situation ends will be determined by the armed man. If he drops the gun, he lives, if he doesn't, he will probably get shot. They used a taser on him, which in my opinion was a poor decision. but they tried. After that, there's nothing that can be done.
The thing is that there are videos showing police peacefully ending situations where a White persona has a gun and they didn't resort to shooting them. The ratios of Black people who get shot with or without a gun are WAY out of proportion.
According to the most recent census data, there are nearly 160 million more white people in America than there are black people. White people make up roughly 62 percent of the U.S. population but only about 49 percent of those who are killed by police officers. African Americans, however, account for 24 percent of those fatally shot and killed by the police despite being just 13 percent of the U.S. population. As The Post noted in a new analysis published last week, that means black Americans are 2.5 times as likely as white Americans to be shot and killed by police officers.U.S. police officers have shot and killed the exact same number of unarmed white people as they have unarmed black people: 50 each. But because the white population is approximately five times as great as the black population, that means unarmed black Americans were five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer.
Police have shot and killed a young black man (ages 18 to 29) - such as Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri -175 times since January 2015; 24 of them were unarmed. Over that same period, police have shot and killed 172 young white men, 18 of whom were unarmed. Once again, while in raw number there were similar totals of white and black victims, blacks were killed at rates disproportionate to their percentage of the U.S. population. Of all of the unarmed people shot and killed by police in 2015, 40 percent of them were black men, even though black men make up just 6 percent of the nation's population."
And, when considering shootings confined within a single race, a black person shot and killed by police is more likely to have been unarmed than a white person. About 13 percent of all black people who have been fatally shot by police since January 2015 were unarmed, compared with 7 percent of all white people.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio...
This isn't just a Black issue. It's a Police Practices issue across the board, but it is slanted negatively towards African Americans. As in all things in this country AA's are usually doing worse than Whites in terms of outcomes. It's not outside of the norm for just about every metric in American society.
The greater socio economic issues are what need to be addressed. The police departments across the country can't be held accountable for what is wrong.
izybx wrote:But nix, as we both know, young black men are more likely to commit crimes than any other ethnic group, and therefore are more likely to face police contact. This isn't the fault of the police. It's a societal problem, and when municipalities try to hamstring the police with draconian discipline and unreasonable policy it doesn't work. Look at Chicago and Baltimore. The place is falling apart because the cops can't workThe greater socio economic issues are what need to be addressed. The police departments across the country can't be held accountable for what is wrong.
I wonder how much of those statistics on crime involved drugs. In the hood there are so many police and they stop cars with Black kids all day every day. Meanwhile there are way fewer cops patrolling white neighborhoods and stopping cars full of white kids. It's what can skew the crime statistics when you make a ton of arrests for minor stuff.
I agree that cops are asked to deal with way too much crap that is caused by socioeconomic problems. This is why I work in underserved communities and try to help young people as much as I can.
nixluva wrote:izybx wrote:But nix, as we both know, young black men are more likely to commit crimes than any other ethnic group, and therefore are more likely to face police contact. This isn't the fault of the police. It's a societal problem, and when municipalities try to hamstring the police with draconian discipline and unreasonable policy it doesn't work. Look at Chicago and Baltimore. The place is falling apart because the cops can't workThe greater socio economic issues are what need to be addressed. The police departments across the country can't be held accountable for what is wrong.
I wonder how much of those statistics on crime involved drugs. In the hood there are so many police and they stop cars with Black kids all day every day. Meanwhile there are way fewer cops patrolling white neighborhoods and stopping cars full of white kids. It's what can skew the crime statistics when you make a ton of arrests for minor stuff.
I agree that cops are asked to deal with way too much crap that is caused by socioeconomic problems. This is why I work in underserved communities and try to help young people as much as I can.
Crime stats are based on the seven major crime complaints:
Murder
Rape
Robbery
Felony assault
Burglary
Grand larceny
Grand larceny auto
These categories are how crime is tracked, and they are deliberately chosen to prevent the skewed statistics that you referenced. Now where crime is high, officers are deployed and (traditionally) expected to perform enforcement. So this is why Brownsville has more cops than the upper east side. I sit in on crime strategy meetings, believe me, no one cares about the demographic of where we send officers. All we care about are "hot spots" of crime, and how we will address them.
izybx wrote:nixluva wrote:izybx wrote:But nix, as we both know, young black men are more likely to commit crimes than any other ethnic group, and therefore are more likely to face police contact. This isn't the fault of the police. It's a societal problem, and when municipalities try to hamstring the police with draconian discipline and unreasonable policy it doesn't work. Look at Chicago and Baltimore. The place is falling apart because the cops can't workThe greater socio economic issues are what need to be addressed. The police departments across the country can't be held accountable for what is wrong.
I wonder how much of those statistics on crime involved drugs. In the hood there are so many police and they stop cars with Black kids all day every day. Meanwhile there are way fewer cops patrolling white neighborhoods and stopping cars full of white kids. It's what can skew the crime statistics when you make a ton of arrests for minor stuff.
I agree that cops are asked to deal with way too much crap that is caused by socioeconomic problems. This is why I work in underserved communities and try to help young people as much as I can.
Crime stats are based on the seven major crime complaints:
Murder
Rape
Robbery
Felony assault
Burglary
Grand larceny
Grand larceny autoThese categories are how crime is tracked, and they are deliberately chosen to prevent the skewed statistics that you referenced. Now where crime is high, officers are deployed and (traditionally) expected to perform enforcement. So this is why Brownsville has more cops than the upper east side. I sit in on crime strategy meetings, believe me, no one cares about the demographic of where we send officers. All we care about are "hot spots" of crime, and how we will address them.
That's good to know but it doesn't change the ramifications of all the extra cops leading to more encounters over mundane things and not Murders and Rapes. The issues with a lot of these troublesome police shootings are occurring with non violent encounters and traffic stops rather than Police responding to a violent incident. No one has an issue with Police doing their job stopping crime but there have been too many unarmed people getting shot. You know the situations like a Tamir Rice or Terrence Crutcher.