Off Topic · Noah Anti-War disses West Point Cadets..... (page 5)
A One was a sailor in WW2
B The other was in a concentration camp as a prisoner
I understand both. I understand that these people my family--I could not be here without them--both were put in peril either protecting others and in the other case being the victim of a rogue nation. My Grandpa told me of many guys he was with who DID not make it back--dead. The other he only escaped due to the US military and 50%++ of that entire side of my family--dead tortured and killed.. How many of our families have the same issue? So many of us would NOT be here without our military OR maybe we would be in concentration camps without our military who knows? I dont want to see young men die--but I also want to respect those who serve us to keep us safe. There is respect and disrespect--there is common sense and then there is tweaked reality that is self righteous
BRIGGS wrote:What stops KP Derrick Rose Ron Baker Carmelo from saying the same thing as Noah? What if 6 guys did the same thing? I do NOT like guns--Ive never owned one I never shot one--I dont like violence I dont want anyone to die. But I do know that there are many people in this world like BOTH my grand fathers whoA One was a sailor in WW2
B The other was in a concentration camp as a prisonerI understand both. I understand that these people my family--I could not be here without them--both were put in peril either protecting others and in the other case being the victim of a rogue nation. My Grandpa told me of many guys he was with who DID not make it back--dead. The other he only escaped due to the US military and 50%++ of that entire side of my family--dead tortured and killed.. How many of our families have the same issue? So many of us would NOT be here without our military OR maybe we would be in concentration camps without our military who knows? I dont want to see young men die--but I also want to respect those who serve us to keep us safe. There is respect and disrespect--there is common sense and then there is tweaked reality that is self righteous
This country has been at war for almost 20 years non-stop. There hasn't been an empire in the history of the world who could conquer Afghanistan. Alexander the Great couldnt do it, and no one else since. Noah doesn't want to see any more kids die for empire, here or anywhere else. To me that is showing more concern for the troops than showing up for a fing dinner.
WP76 wrote:Where did I say he should lie? I thought he wanted, justifiably, to spend time at home.
Noah has never brought up spending time with new child as the reason he wanted to skip as far as I can tell. If you suggest that that should have been his answer to stay classy, than you are suggesting he should have lied.
martin wrote:WP76 wrote:Where did I say he should lie? I thought he wanted, justifiably, to spend time at home.Noah has never brought up spending time with new child as the reason he wanted to skip as far as I can tell. If you suggest that that should have been his answer to stay classy, than you are suggesting he should have lied.
While Noah never mentioned his newborn, it was brought up on this board and I, perhaps wrongly, accepted it as a motivating/mitigating factor in his actions. I never said (nor meant to imply) that he should've been dishonest. While it was absolutely his right to make a political statement I just didn't think it appropriate to do so under the circumstances that he did and I'll leave it at that.
WP76 wrote:martin wrote:WP76 wrote:Where did I say he should lie? I thought he wanted, justifiably, to spend time at home.Noah has never brought up spending time with new child as the reason he wanted to skip as far as I can tell. If you suggest that that should have been his answer to stay classy, than you are suggesting he should have lied.
While Noah never mentioned his newborn, it was brought up on this board and I, perhaps wrongly, accepted it as a motivating/mitigating factor in his actions. I never said (nor meant to imply) that he should've been dishonest. While it was absolutely his right to make a political statement I just didn't think it appropriate to do so under the circumstances that he did and I'll leave it at that.
Here's the thing though, he didn't make a statement. Zero, none. He was quietly going about his business. Marc Berman of the NY Post made it an issue by posting a nonsense article about it to get clicks.
This is not the same as taking a public stance by taking a knee during the anthem as a very visible gesture.
BRIGGS wrote:What stops KP Derrick Rose Ron Baker Carmelo from saying the same thing as Noah? What if 6 guys did the same thing? I do NOT like guns--Ive never owned one I never shot one--I dont like violence I dont want anyone to die. But I do know that there are many people in this world like BOTH my grand fathers whoA One was a sailor in WW2
B The other was in a concentration camp as a prisonerI understand both. I understand that these people my family--I could not be here without them--both were put in peril either protecting others and in the other case being the victim of a rogue nation. My Grandpa told me of many guys he was with who DID not make it back--dead. The other he only escaped due to the US military and 50%++ of that entire side of my family--dead tortured and killed.. How many of our families have the same issue? So many of us would NOT be here without our military OR maybe we would be in concentration camps without our military who knows? I dont want to see young men die--but I also want to respect those who serve us to keep us safe. There is respect and disrespect--there is common sense and then there is tweaked reality that is self righteous
What would Trump say about your Grandfathers comrade in arms who were captured? Or died in battle? He denegrated a silver star family because of their religion. A family whose son died in battle for our country.
Trump is always "Joking" about things that get the crowd really going. He can retract them later when called on it. I don't know how you can back a guy that does this:http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/politics/d...
How do you honor your lost relatives? By voting for a man who seemingly will say anything to be elected including calling POW's losers? Take a mans purple heard as a gift, and quantify a famlilys grief because they are muslim?
WP76 wrote:But that's the point, he didn't "vent" anything! We wouldn't have even known anything about this if the media didn't report on it and ask him for comment. He did not hold a press conference and recite some manifesto. He gave a respectful, thoughtful explanation about his feeling and why he did not attend. Whether you share his feelings nor not, I fail to see what he did that lacked tact or class. I think you're being incredibly unfair to the guy.Welpee wrote:WP76 wrote:Well, the same way Noah has a right to his opinion that you say comes across as "ill-informed and rude" you are entitled to your opinion which could be viewed as self-righteous and pompous. Once again, we ask our athletes to be authentic and genuine until they do or say what we don't like. Then they're suppose to either lie about their feelings, tow the company line or just stay quite.martin wrote:WP76 wrote:As rarely as I agree with Frank Isola, I think he nailed this when he said that Noah's gesture was "rude." If you have a host who's extending you a dinner invitation, you accept or politely decline (see above). To handle it as Noah did is, at best, poor decision making or, at worst, classless.How did Noah handle this? Insofar as I can tell, he declined to attend.
He should've just said, "given the fact that I'm a new father, I'd like to decline the dinner invitation to spend time with my newborn." Again, non-issue at that point.
Instead he gives some brain dead rationalization of "I don't like the idea of kids killing kids" which comes off as short-sighted, ill-informed, and rude. There's a big difference between the two approaches because one shows intelligence and class; the other not so much.
What a country.
I do know what people (athlete or not) with any degree or tact or class would've done in that situation and I so stated. If that comes across as "self righteous and pompous" then so be it. Noah's very much entitled to his feelings but this was neither the time nor the forum to vent them.
WP76 wrote:Where did I say he should lie? I thought he wanted, justifiably, to spend time at home. In any case, it's his right to decline with or without an explanation. I just have an issue in his making, in my opinion, a political statement inappropriate to the time and circumstance. Sometimes saying less is better.So now you're inside his head and think you know his true motivation for doing what he did? Wow. Just wow!Bottom line: I disagree with how he handled the situation which, of course, is equally my prerogative.
BRIGGS wrote:What stops KP Derrick Rose Ron Baker Carmelo from saying the same thing as Noah? What if 6 guys did the same thing? I do NOT like guns--Ive never owned one I never shot one--I dont like violence I dont want anyone to die. But I do know that there are many people in this world like BOTH my grand fathers whoPerhaps in the future the Knicks should takes steps to understand the climate of the team to see if holding camp on a military facility is a problem for anyone. Say the Knicks were planning to hold camp in North Carolina and a percentage of the team had a problem with it because of what's happening down there, wouldn't it be prudent for the Knicks to reconsider their plans?A One was a sailor in WW2
B The other was in a concentration camp as a prisonerI understand both. I understand that these people my family--I could not be here without them--both were put in peril either protecting others and in the other case being the victim of a rogue nation. My Grandpa told me of many guys he was with who DID not make it back--dead. The other he only escaped due to the US military and 50%++ of that entire side of my family--dead tortured and killed.. How many of our families have the same issue? So many of us would NOT be here without our military OR maybe we would be in concentration camps without our military who knows? I dont want to see young men die--but I also want to respect those who serve us to keep us safe. There is respect and disrespect--there is common sense and then there is tweaked reality that is self righteous
BRIGGS wrote:What stops KP Derrick Rose Ron Baker Carmelo from saying the same thing as Noah?
Nothing.
What if 6 guys did the same thing?
Then we'd know what we already should.
We live in the United States of America, where having the ability to think and act critically is at the core of our values.
but I also want to respect those who serve us to keep us safe.
And no one is stopping you, or cares to define for YOU what that respect means. I'm not sure any information exists suggestng Noah encourages his teammates to join him or criticized them for attending.
There is respect and disrespect--there is common sense and then there is tweaked reality that is self righteous
No, there is your opinion of what that is and your fellow citizens own opinion as to what that is.
What one of your grandfathers fought for was so that you have the right to act of your conscious and other people can and should do the same.
Briggs, your grandfather fought so you would never have to. Your grandfather fought so your daughter never has to face the horror of it.
It was a gift. Those who object to the object racism you cannot understand (nor I) but they can also protest that "One Nation under god" is not being upheld.
Your Grandfather fought for that ideal and the freedoms our boys sacrificed for are not being respected.
Trumps divisive campaign reeks of the thug like attitude that Hitler used to gain power. He empowered the uneducated nationalist into believing they came first and other "Races" were conspiring to take what they felt was rightly theirs. How can I say this? "America First". Maybe its not meant to say "americans first", but look at the rallies and the chants. We have all seen it and read about it. You can run from Brooklyn and assimilate among the Trump supporters in your neighbor hood and be judgemental from the privileged perch you now have but your grandfather didn't, nor did your relatives who bought into "Germans first".
Yet, you openly support Donald J. Trump!
Nalod wrote:
Briggs, your grandfather fought so you would never have to. Your grandfather fought so your daughter never has to face the horror of it.
It was a gift. Those who object to the object racism you cannot understand (nor I) but they can also protest that "One Nation under god" is not being upheld.Your Grandfather fought for that ideal and the freedoms our boys sacrificed for are not being respected.
Trumps divisive campaign reeks of the thug like attitude that Hitler used to gain power. He empowered the uneducated nationalist into believing they came first and other "Races" were conspiring to take what they felt was rightly theirs. How can I say this? "America First". Maybe its not meant to say "americans first", but look at the rallies and the chants. We have all seen it and read about it. You can run from Brooklyn and assimilate among the Trump supporters in your neighbor hood and be judgemental from the privileged perch you now have but your grandfather didn't, nor did your relatives who bought into "Germans first".Yet, you openly support Donald J. Trump!
BRIGGS wrote:If the guy wasnt just a narcissist arsehole I might be interest in voting for him. Im NOT voting for Bush. I dont trust Trump with Nukes--simple as that.
With supporters like Briggs, who needs something something...
Knickoftime wrote:jrodmc wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:DrAlphaeus wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Let me write this basic answerIf it wasn't for millions of American soldiers who died. As in gave their live in the cause of providing a country full of freedoms, there would be no J Noah's available yo be direspectful . But hey fck them they're dead and were here. So all of these young kids who give their lives to train and maybe their own life to protect Noah and his kids. Yeah let's get rid of the military and the flag. Let's listen to quiet riot in schools and fck we don't need the police either. We can self police ourselves
That applies to some of our country's wars. Much of the time now our military is a Department of Offense (as Jill Stein put it), not Defense.
Call it whatever you want Bonn if it wasn't here you wouldn't be here
Same thing with doctors, police, etc. As a nation, we're all interdependent. Do I have to go to dinners for everyone?If you are a public figure who makes incredible earnings you should be first in line to do the minimum to support the countries military. I'm not sure Noah would be as happy in a concentration camp somewhere
This is out of order BRIGGS. People supporting their military were responsible for concentration camps in the first place. What a shitty dramatic escalation of where grown men decide to eat dinner.
Wow are you guys naive. Without the military you would not have the life you do. Case closed
Indeed true.
We also probably would not have the life we do if we didn't annex one of the world's largest, most abundantly rich, most naturally defendable land masses by committing genocide against the civilizations that already inhabited it.
We probably would not have the life with do if we didn't build our pre-industrial economy on the backs of slave labor.
We might not have life we all do if we were not the only civilization in the history of humankind to use a nuclear weapon on another... twice.
Your 'point' has no meaning. The idea that a person can't object to specific applications of our standing military is intellectually barren.
Your 'counterpoints' also are meaningless.
The civilizations that already inhabited it were slightly busy committing atrocious acts against each other, as well as anyone else that happened along, while fighting alongside the French or English. Missed those days in history class, did you? Ever see a Franciscan monk without any weapons being skinned alive?
All countries had slaves (including the ones we imported slaves from) maybe the whole world should just disband it's governments and militaries. Also, I forget why the North won the Civil War. Was it so we could all benefit from slave labor?
Had lots of family dying in the Pacific theatre during WWII, did you? Ever read anything about what the Japanese were planning towards the end of that war? Had a great alternative plan that would have ended it all sooner?
No one's saying Noah can't object until his man bun falls off. He could have objected any one of a million other ways. More power to his free speech.
Being disrespectful or choosing an inappropriate way to object is the point. Not his rights as an American citizen.
Is your point that we annexed North America under the doctrine of Manifest Destiny because native American cultures deserved it? It was to make the world better? They forced the U.S.'s hand?
Yes, most country's histories are stained by slavery. I'm not accustomed, however, to the argument that the U.S. is just another nation in the world community?
None of your rebuttals justifying these things is the point, however.
The point always was the argument that a person of conscious should put their brain on hold in some broad deference to ideals they don't believe in is both moronic and unamerican.
Being disrespectful and inappropriate is a completely subjective matter and will naturally be defined differently by those with different views. The important thing is what's the intentions of people like Noah or Kaepernick. Deciding for someone else they intend to disrespect others or institutions is ridiculous.
Tremendous. When all else fails, play the everything is relative card. What if Noah took a shit on the West Point flag? What if he decided to throw what he picks out of his toes at the colonel during the dinner?
What is your point?
West Point decided Noah's action was inappropriate. Anyone with a brain that can possibly understand the incoherence of saying there are no objective realities is a little tough to have a meaningful conversation with.
jrodmc wrote:Tremendous. When all else fails, play the everything is relative card.
If you call the foundation of our 1st amendment a 'card', then yes, I'll play that card and that whole deck all day, every day.
Now this of course is not a first amendment issue, but it does inform our society's stance of this issue. Freedom of expression is the backbone of what our nation stands for, and is of course and as should be obvious, inherently an issue of relativeness.
What if Noah took a shit on the West Point flag? What if he decided to throw what he picks out of his toes at the colonel during the dinner?
He did neither of those things. So now you're going to deal from the bottom of the 'slippery slope' deck?
What is your point?
You already responded to it, so I have to assume you understood it.
West Point decided Noah's action was inappropriate.
As is THEIR prerogative to 'decide' to hold that opinion. But as we've established, West Point speaks for West Point, they don't speak for Noah.
Or me. Or any of the number of your fellow Knicks fans who as this thread indicates, find nothing inappropriate about Noah's position.
Anyone with a brain that can possibly understand the incoherence of saying there are no objective realities is a little tough to have a meaningful conversation with.
I'm not at all surprised you'd have difficulty communicating with someone who doesn't share a subjective opinion that you personally regard as an objective reality. Some things explain themselves.
But as it stands, you've done nothing to actually support it being a objective reality, you've only made the claim, which to paraphrase you, anyone with a brain stem can do.
Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:What stops KP Derrick Rose Ron Baker Carmelo from saying the same thing as Noah?Nothing.
What if 6 guys did the same thing?Then we'd know what we already should.
We live in the United States of America, where having the ability to think and act critically is at the core of our values.
but I also want to respect those who serve us to keep us safe.And no one is stopping you, or cares to define for YOU what that respect means. I'm not sure any information exists suggestng Noah encourages his teammates to join him or criticized them for attending.
There is respect and disrespect--there is common sense and then there is tweaked reality that is self righteousNo, there is your opinion of what that is and your fellow citizens own opinion as to what that is.
What one of your grandfathers fought for was so that you have the right to act of your conscious and other people can and should do the same.
So I guess anyone is free to be disrespectful in the good ole USA. Is that what they are teaching at Princeton these days? I'm sure you teach your kids to hide under their desks during the pledge of allegiance. Give me a break you laughable goof
BRIGGS wrote:So I guess anyone is free to be disrespectful in the good ole USA.
Yes.
They are.
Which is sort of the whole point of the good ole USA.
BRIGGS wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:What stops KP Derrick Rose Ron Baker Carmelo from saying the same thing as Noah?Nothing.
What if 6 guys did the same thing?Then we'd know what we already should.
We live in the United States of America, where having the ability to think and act critically is at the core of our values.
but I also want to respect those who serve us to keep us safe.And no one is stopping you, or cares to define for YOU what that respect means. I'm not sure any information exists suggestng Noah encourages his teammates to join him or criticized them for attending.
There is respect and disrespect--there is common sense and then there is tweaked reality that is self righteousNo, there is your opinion of what that is and your fellow citizens own opinion as to what that is.
What one of your grandfathers fought for was so that you have the right to act of your conscious and other people can and should do the same.
So I guess anyone is free to be disrespectful in the good ole USA. Is that what they are teaching at Princeton these days? I'm sure you teach your kids to hide under their desks during the pledge of allegiance. Give me a break you laughable goof
Yeah this anti war stance is BS! I mean the nerve. What's wrong with some thinking we are forcing kids to die for oil and foreign interest while disguising it to the "living room stupid", sitting in their arm chairs, as patriotic defense of our country. Who would have the
nerve to take this position? Ali, everyone in the 60's, and anyone who had a relative come back from the Gulf in a body bag or with PTSD. Btw, how is missing a dinner and saying your against war disrespectful to the USA? Is war synonymous with the USA?
Knickoftime wrote:The point always was the argument that a person of conscious should put their brain on hold in some broad deference to ideals they don't believe in is both moronic and unamerican.
No, the point is not about putting anyone's brain on hold, person of conscience or otherwise. This hasn't been about ideals or Noah supporting anything Noah doesn't happen to believe in. Making this about that is truly moronic. By attending a dinner and listening to a talk, no one was asking Noah to put his brain on hold, support "kids killing kids all over the world" or violate any other high ideal he holds.
It was a dinner invite. Not a recruitment event. Not a USO war bonds fundraiser. Not a briefing to review and approve the next mission the Army is being called to fulfill.
Funny, as the article pointed out, he didn't feel any high ideal violation when playing ball with the current CommanderinChief, who actually makes the calls to send these kids out that Noah is so overly concerned about. He's deploying a whole bunch of them to Afghanistan this December, actually. Guess it's also a relative matter as to who you can pick to be subjectively disrespectful or inappropriate to.
Knickoftime wrote:Being disrespectful and inappropriate is a completely subjective matter and will naturally be defined differently by those with different views. The important thing is what's the intentions of people like Noah or Kaepernick. Deciding for someone else they intend to disrespect others or institutions is ridiculous.
This is truly fascinating logic. You can judge others by their actions and judge yourself by your intentions. Noah dislikes the military because he views them as "kids killing kids" and that's his high-minded moral right of conscience. But West Point calling Noah's actions disrespectful and inappropriate is a completely subjective matter that may or may not have any actual value based on the intentions of the person who made the supposedly disrespectful and inappropriate act.
Knickoftime wrote:If you call the foundation of our 1st amendment a 'card', then yes, I'll play that card and that whole deck all day, every day.Now this of course is not a first amendment issue, but it does inform our society's stance of this issue. Freedom of expression is the backbone of what our nation stands for, and is of course and as should be obvious, inherently an issue of relativeness.
It's not a first amendment issue, but it's somehow has to have something to do with the foundation of our 1st amendment. Check.
And no one's even stating that Noah doesn't have freedom of expression to express himself in a disrespectful and inappropriate manner.
But self expression isn't even the backbone of this country, the Bill of Rights are actually centered around insuring an abusive government doesn't abridge that or any other rights. And the judicial system gets to spend it's time deciding for all of us what's the legal limit for that expression. Sounds pretty overarchingly objective to me.
jrodmc wrote:What if Noah took a shit on the West Point flag? What if he decided to throw what he picks out of his toes at the colonel during the dinner?
Knickoftime wrote:He did neither of those things. So now you're going to deal from the bottom of the 'slippery slope' deck?
Why, are any of those things not open to subjective definitions?
jrodmc wrote:West Point decided Noah's action was inappropriate.
Knickoftime wrote:As is THEIR prerogative to 'decide' to hold that opinion. But as we've established, West Point speaks for West Point, they don't speak for Noah.
Or me. Or any of the number of your fellow Knicks fans who as this thread indicates, find nothing inappropriate about Noah's position.
So let me get this straight. You think that actions are defined by the value of the intentions behind them, not the actual action itself? The question isn't about Noah's position (anti-war, anti-violence against kids) it's about how he decided to express it at this particular time and whether or not that was disrespectful and inappropriate to West Point and the cadets. What if Noah didn't go to dinner because angels told him not to? What if Noah didn't go to dinner because he hates the idea of LGBT's in the Army, or opening the draft to women? What if Noah didn't go to the dinner because he was busy trying to shut down Planned Parenthood? Still hold the same feelings about the relevance of his action to his genuine Ahmuhrican rights?
jrodmc wrote:Anyone with a brain that can possibly understand the incoherence of saying there are no objective realities is a little tough to have a meaningful conversation with.
Knickoftime wrote:I'm not at all surprised you'd have difficulty communicating with someone who doesn't share a subjective opinion that you personally regard as an objective reality. Some things explain themselves.But as it stands, you've done nothing to actually support it being a objective reality, you've only made the claim, which to paraphrase you, anyone with a brain stem can do.
I'm really just wondering, what is an objective reality in your world? Do they exist? And if they did, how would you know?
Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:So I guess anyone is free to be disrespectful in the good ole USA.Yes.
They are.
Which is sort of the whole point of the good ole USA.
Psssst....don't bother reading the Declaration of Independence. Might blow up your whole "point of the good ole USA".
jrodmc wrote:Knickoftime wrote:BRIGGS wrote:So I guess anyone is free to be disrespectful in the good ole USA.Yes.
They are.
Which is sort of the whole point of the good ole USA.
Psssst....don't bother reading the Declaration of Independence. Might blow up your whole "point of the good ole USA".
There is something in the Declaration of Independence that suggests U.S. citizens are NOT free to pursue happiness by expressing their views?
I must have forgotten the text. I'm open to being corrected by someone who has superior knowledge.