Knicks · Get Melo TF out of here!!! (page 4)
Cartman718 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:I'd suspend Rose indefinitely and Melo and KOQ a game for conduct detrimental to the team, with the hope Melo then waives his NTCwhy KOQ?
I have no issues with KOQ but if you were hypothetically to suspend Melo for quitting on the team, you'd pretty much be forced to suspend KOQ too
Has Boogie even done something as bad as that?
TPercy wrote:Funny because the main argument for keeping Melo is that he takes up the responsibility of a father figure to the young ones. Melo pulling shit like this completely nullify that argument and since he is likely not going to get suspended, he sends a message that this kind of behavior is tolerable. What ever happened the to the guy who was organizing workouts for new players so that the team could gel together? Can't say that I'm fully on the "trade Melo" train, but you can't help but be extremely disappointed.Has Boogie even done something as bad as that?
I'd consider this on par with stuff Boogie has done or refusing to play in games ("Rest" plague). I don't think that sends the right message either. Players only get away with it because the league is non-competitive.
It certainly seems like he asked to be ejected, his complaining was basically nothing compared to stuff I've seen go without a T, let alone an ejection. Consistent complainers like Green come to mind. Guy butchers somebody then goes insane when a foul is called. Melo's reaction was pretty rationale given it was a pretty poor miss by the officials.
A trade will be difficult more because of the CBA than the NTC. If there was a realistic scenario where he could compete following a trade (there aren't many), then I don't think we would have much trouble finding a taker and moving him. This is a problem for a lot of teams. They would probably like to unload a few guys but the salary match rule really limits things. I do have some concerns over how others would perceive the move given the fact that NY is already a place nobody wants to play because of media/fan pressure and heightened scrutiny.
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
It was more a response to the claim people have made over the past 3 years that Melo's contract would one day be a bargain. I never bought it. The Knicks overpay for almost all their players, and then fans wonder why the roster has so many holes.You have no idea what Melo's real economic impact on the Knicks are to assess value of such a contract...I would venture to say he must be more than a bargain given TV deals that were able to signed at increased rates in 2013 during and after the 54 win season..These business men were more than willing to re-up his agreement weren't they...
The fact that people still tune in to watch these soft candy arse players Phil brought in who play with no passion and pride should be a testament to his value as a player...
I'm talking about impact on wins and losses. I'm not interested in Dolan's wallet though I think he'd make more with a team that regularly went deep in the playoffs anyway.
Impact on wins and losses have a lot more to do with team composition, coach, GM than with one player..If your argument was true, Kareem wouldn't need to go to the Lakers to win Championships...You have pushed this narrative for years knowing the flawed argument it presents...Until you give him GM responsibility to assemble a team of people he thinks he can win with, he should be blameless..Blame Phil..He gutted the team and decided to go with rookie coaches and an inexperienced soft players who want to get along...Surely you can't be blind to that fact unless it's convenient...I have never said it was just one player. To say that I'm knowingly making a false argument (when it's not even an argument I'm making) is unfair. I have always said Melo is just symptom of a problem that predated him by many years - overpaying in almost every transaction. He's currently the biggest symptom of that problem on our roster (though Noah is not far behind). But if they get rid of him and just overpay for other players, it won't make any difference.
I can go back and pull up arguments that you made prior to his signing the most recent contract to argue my point...Completely disagree about over paying...A guy who can help a team to the second round of the playoffs in NYC is more than worth 25 mil per year easily...Get the right coaches and player around him..If the GM decides to bring in people who only listens to him and only run his system in today's game then all bets are off...Maybe you are looking for a miracle worker at 25 mil per..You seemingly aren't willing to lay the blame where it should be...Maybe we disagree on roster construction..But at least you have seen him lead a team to the second round and that you can't argue...You can say that isn't worth 25 mil but Dolan may say different..
No, you can't. There is no way I argued he was the one and only problem.
Regarding the rest of what you said, the problem is that it is very hard to thoroughly fill out the rest of the roster when you spend 1/4 the cap on a guy who's just an aging volume scorer. It was predictable that when you spend that much on a guy like Melo, the roster will have holes. (And again that doesn't mean Melo is the only problem. He's just the biggest of many current symptoms of the problem.)No you wouldn't say he is the one and only problem but you would make opaque suggestions that he is responsible for the team's problems..The talent assemble on the starting unit can get us to the second round with a coach who emphasis defense...Our GM wanted a coach who would run his system...Our coach and bench as it turns out isn't up to that task..The guy with the biggest contract gets the blame I get it..But at this point I think he should go..I hope he allows for a trade...I jsut want to see this team flushed of management and coaches and players again and start anew...It's just tiring talking about one guy who isn't the problem when the rest of the roster sucks...It's like reading all the fake news and not talking about the real issues...Melo has become a distraction in what the real problem of this organization is..When you see Breen on TV saying Melo is the problem, pushing fake news, is when you know the house is about to implode...
Sure, if you spend 1/4 of the cap on Melo (or any player), you could still make it to the 2nd round. You're just making that task a lot harder. The more you overpay one player, the more you handicap yourself and the more flawless the rest of your decisions have to be though. It's unlikely that a GM/owner team that overpaid that much for one player would have the right judgment to fill out the rest of the roster effectively. The same flawed judgment involved in overpaying Melo led to all the other overpaying the Knicks did before him and have done since.Sure, that's easy to say when you don't have the task of running a business and putting people in seats...When you are a now publicly traded company like MSG, continued 20 and 30 win seasons aren't an option...So assessing "correct judgements" is solely based on point of view...For my part, I try to at least be realistic...
Plenty of corporations make short-term sacrifices for long-term prosperity. It's clear MSG/Dolan don't do that though. In that sense you're right. Unless they change their philosophy, I expect many more decades of terrible basketball. (It's ironic that, despite what you said, they've had continued 20 to 30 win seasons anyway.)
Long term prosperity via a full rebuild isn't a given, yours is just a point of view that many here think could lead to prosperity...Nothing is perfect, there are many factors involved like good GM and coaches and lots of luck..Take Chicago for example, they have been rebuilding for the last two decades and is thinking about dumping Jimmy Butler and launching a third decade of rebuild..Atlanta have been rebuilding since Dominique and beyond, Milwaukee since Kareem and beyond...Nothing is a given..Just preferences that suits your taste...Heat got lucky putting pieces together and so did Dallas in the last decade...The key in my opinion is a good GM and coach combination on the same page with opportunity to take advantage of and luck...
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
It was more a response to the claim people have made over the past 3 years that Melo's contract would one day be a bargain. I never bought it. The Knicks overpay for almost all their players, and then fans wonder why the roster has so many holes.You have no idea what Melo's real economic impact on the Knicks are to assess value of such a contract...I would venture to say he must be more than a bargain given TV deals that were able to signed at increased rates in 2013 during and after the 54 win season..These business men were more than willing to re-up his agreement weren't they...
The fact that people still tune in to watch these soft candy arse players Phil brought in who play with no passion and pride should be a testament to his value as a player...
I'm talking about impact on wins and losses. I'm not interested in Dolan's wallet though I think he'd make more with a team that regularly went deep in the playoffs anyway.
Impact on wins and losses have a lot more to do with team composition, coach, GM than with one player..If your argument was true, Kareem wouldn't need to go to the Lakers to win Championships...You have pushed this narrative for years knowing the flawed argument it presents...Until you give him GM responsibility to assemble a team of people he thinks he can win with, he should be blameless..Blame Phil..He gutted the team and decided to go with rookie coaches and an inexperienced soft players who want to get along...Surely you can't be blind to that fact unless it's convenient...I have never said it was just one player. To say that I'm knowingly making a false argument (when it's not even an argument I'm making) is unfair. I have always said Melo is just symptom of a problem that predated him by many years - overpaying in almost every transaction. He's currently the biggest symptom of that problem on our roster (though Noah is not far behind). But if they get rid of him and just overpay for other players, it won't make any difference.
I can go back and pull up arguments that you made prior to his signing the most recent contract to argue my point...Completely disagree about over paying...A guy who can help a team to the second round of the playoffs in NYC is more than worth 25 mil per year easily...Get the right coaches and player around him..If the GM decides to bring in people who only listens to him and only run his system in today's game then all bets are off...Maybe you are looking for a miracle worker at 25 mil per..You seemingly aren't willing to lay the blame where it should be...Maybe we disagree on roster construction..But at least you have seen him lead a team to the second round and that you can't argue...You can say that isn't worth 25 mil but Dolan may say different..
No, you can't. There is no way I argued he was the one and only problem.
Regarding the rest of what you said, the problem is that it is very hard to thoroughly fill out the rest of the roster when you spend 1/4 the cap on a guy who's just an aging volume scorer. It was predictable that when you spend that much on a guy like Melo, the roster will have holes. (And again that doesn't mean Melo is the only problem. He's just the biggest of many current symptoms of the problem.)No you wouldn't say he is the one and only problem but you would make opaque suggestions that he is responsible for the team's problems..The talent assemble on the starting unit can get us to the second round with a coach who emphasis defense...Our GM wanted a coach who would run his system...Our coach and bench as it turns out isn't up to that task..The guy with the biggest contract gets the blame I get it..But at this point I think he should go..I hope he allows for a trade...I jsut want to see this team flushed of management and coaches and players again and start anew...It's just tiring talking about one guy who isn't the problem when the rest of the roster sucks...It's like reading all the fake news and not talking about the real issues...Melo has become a distraction in what the real problem of this organization is..When you see Breen on TV saying Melo is the problem, pushing fake news, is when you know the house is about to implode...
Sure, if you spend 1/4 of the cap on Melo (or any player), you could still make it to the 2nd round. You're just making that task a lot harder. The more you overpay one player, the more you handicap yourself and the more flawless the rest of your decisions have to be though. It's unlikely that a GM/owner team that overpaid that much for one player would have the right judgment to fill out the rest of the roster effectively. The same flawed judgment involved in overpaying Melo led to all the other overpaying the Knicks did before him and have done since.Sure, that's easy to say when you don't have the task of running a business and putting people in seats...When you are a now publicly traded company like MSG, continued 20 and 30 win seasons aren't an option...So assessing "correct judgements" is solely based on point of view...For my part, I try to at least be realistic...
Plenty of corporations make short-term sacrifices for long-term prosperity. It's clear MSG/Dolan don't do that though. In that sense you're right. Unless they change their philosophy, I expect many more decades of terrible basketball. (It's ironic that, despite what you said, they've had continued 20 to 30 win seasons anyway.)Long term prosperity via a full rebuild isn't a given, yours is just a point of view that many here think could lead to prosperity...Nothing is perfect, there are many factors involved like good GM and coaches and lots of luck..Take Chicago for example, they have been rebuilding for the last two decades and is thinking about dumping Jimmy Butler and launching a third decade of rebuild..Atlanta have been rebuilding since Dominique and beyond, Milwaukee since Kareem and beyond...Nothing is a given..Just preferences that suits your taste...Heat got lucky putting pieces together and so did Dallas in the last decade...The key in my opinion is a good GM and coach combination on the same page with opportunity to take advantage of and luck...
When I talk about rebuilding, I'm talking about adding (mostly) younger players who are actually worth their salaries (as indicated by both the eye test and the metrics). I disagree with the premise that that would lead to a less successful team. Even in the immediate term, I do not think it would be a team that was worse than what we've had. There is no need to take a step backwards in this case (and there isn't much room to go backwards from these last few years anyway). I think you're defining "rebuilding" differently than I am. I just mean a new philosophy and mostly new players. I don't mean tanking or even going backwards.
SwishAndDish13 wrote:TPercy wrote:Funny because the main argument for keeping Melo is that he takes up the responsibility of a father figure to the young ones. Melo pulling shit like this completely nullify that argument and since he is likely not going to get suspended, he sends a message that this kind of behavior is tolerable. What ever happened the to the guy who was organizing workouts for new players so that the team could gel together? Can't say that I'm fully on the "trade Melo" train, but you can't help but be extremely disappointed.Has Boogie even done something as bad as that?
I'd consider this on par with stuff Boogie has done or refusing to play in games ("Rest" plague). I don't think that sends the right message either. Players only get away with it because the league is non-competitive.
It certainly seems like he asked to be ejected, his complaining was basically nothing compared to stuff I've seen go without a T, let alone an ejection. Consistent complainers like Green come to mind. Guy butchers somebody then goes insane when a foul is called. Melo's reaction was pretty rationale given it was a pretty poor miss by the officials.
A trade will be difficult more because of the CBA than the NTC. If there was a realistic scenario where he could compete following a trade (there aren't many), then I don't think we would have much trouble finding a taker and moving him. This is a problem for a lot of teams. They would probably like to unload a few guys but the salary match rule really limits things. I do have some concerns over how others would perceive the move given the fact that NY is already a place nobody wants to play because of media/fan pressure and heightened scrutiny.
Honestly I don't see the Melo move having a significant impact on how other players would perceive it. How many other big potential free agents or superstars for that matter would pull what Melo did? Plus if the words of NBA executives hold any weight, playing with Porzingis is viewed as an enticing prospect.
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
It was more a response to the claim people have made over the past 3 years that Melo's contract would one day be a bargain. I never bought it. The Knicks overpay for almost all their players, and then fans wonder why the roster has so many holes.You have no idea what Melo's real economic impact on the Knicks are to assess value of such a contract...I would venture to say he must be more than a bargain given TV deals that were able to signed at increased rates in 2013 during and after the 54 win season..These business men were more than willing to re-up his agreement weren't they...
The fact that people still tune in to watch these soft candy arse players Phil brought in who play with no passion and pride should be a testament to his value as a player...
I'm talking about impact on wins and losses. I'm not interested in Dolan's wallet though I think he'd make more with a team that regularly went deep in the playoffs anyway.
Impact on wins and losses have a lot more to do with team composition, coach, GM than with one player..If your argument was true, Kareem wouldn't need to go to the Lakers to win Championships...You have pushed this narrative for years knowing the flawed argument it presents...Until you give him GM responsibility to assemble a team of people he thinks he can win with, he should be blameless..Blame Phil..He gutted the team and decided to go with rookie coaches and an inexperienced soft players who want to get along...Surely you can't be blind to that fact unless it's convenient...I have never said it was just one player. To say that I'm knowingly making a false argument (when it's not even an argument I'm making) is unfair. I have always said Melo is just symptom of a problem that predated him by many years - overpaying in almost every transaction. He's currently the biggest symptom of that problem on our roster (though Noah is not far behind). But if they get rid of him and just overpay for other players, it won't make any difference.
I can go back and pull up arguments that you made prior to his signing the most recent contract to argue my point...Completely disagree about over paying...A guy who can help a team to the second round of the playoffs in NYC is more than worth 25 mil per year easily...Get the right coaches and player around him..If the GM decides to bring in people who only listens to him and only run his system in today's game then all bets are off...Maybe you are looking for a miracle worker at 25 mil per..You seemingly aren't willing to lay the blame where it should be...Maybe we disagree on roster construction..But at least you have seen him lead a team to the second round and that you can't argue...You can say that isn't worth 25 mil but Dolan may say different..
No, you can't. There is no way I argued he was the one and only problem.
Regarding the rest of what you said, the problem is that it is very hard to thoroughly fill out the rest of the roster when you spend 1/4 the cap on a guy who's just an aging volume scorer. It was predictable that when you spend that much on a guy like Melo, the roster will have holes. (And again that doesn't mean Melo is the only problem. He's just the biggest of many current symptoms of the problem.)No you wouldn't say he is the one and only problem but you would make opaque suggestions that he is responsible for the team's problems..The talent assemble on the starting unit can get us to the second round with a coach who emphasis defense...Our GM wanted a coach who would run his system...Our coach and bench as it turns out isn't up to that task..The guy with the biggest contract gets the blame I get it..But at this point I think he should go..I hope he allows for a trade...I jsut want to see this team flushed of management and coaches and players again and start anew...It's just tiring talking about one guy who isn't the problem when the rest of the roster sucks...It's like reading all the fake news and not talking about the real issues...Melo has become a distraction in what the real problem of this organization is..When you see Breen on TV saying Melo is the problem, pushing fake news, is when you know the house is about to implode...
Sure, if you spend 1/4 of the cap on Melo (or any player), you could still make it to the 2nd round. You're just making that task a lot harder. The more you overpay one player, the more you handicap yourself and the more flawless the rest of your decisions have to be though. It's unlikely that a GM/owner team that overpaid that much for one player would have the right judgment to fill out the rest of the roster effectively. The same flawed judgment involved in overpaying Melo led to all the other overpaying the Knicks did before him and have done since.Sure, that's easy to say when you don't have the task of running a business and putting people in seats...When you are a now publicly traded company like MSG, continued 20 and 30 win seasons aren't an option...So assessing "correct judgements" is solely based on point of view...For my part, I try to at least be realistic...
Plenty of corporations make short-term sacrifices for long-term prosperity. It's clear MSG/Dolan don't do that though. In that sense you're right. Unless they change their philosophy, I expect many more decades of terrible basketball. (It's ironic that, despite what you said, they've had continued 20 to 30 win seasons anyway.)Long term prosperity via a full rebuild isn't a given, yours is just a point of view that many here think could lead to prosperity...Nothing is perfect, there are many factors involved like good GM and coaches and lots of luck..Take Chicago for example, they have been rebuilding for the last two decades and is thinking about dumping Jimmy Butler and launching a third decade of rebuild..Atlanta have been rebuilding since Dominique and beyond, Milwaukee since Kareem and beyond...Nothing is a given..Just preferences that suits your taste...Heat got lucky putting pieces together and so did Dallas in the last decade...The key in my opinion is a good GM and coach combination on the same page with opportunity to take advantage of and luck...
When I talk about rebuilding, I'm talking about adding (mostly) younger players who are actually worth their salaries (as indicated by both the eye test and the metrics). I disagree with the premise that that would lead to a less successful team. Even in the immediate term, I do not think it would be a team that was worse than what we've had. There is no need to take a step backwards in this case (and there isn't much room to go backwards from these last few years anyway). I think you're defining "rebuilding" differently than I am. I just mean a new philosophy and mostly new players. I don't mean tanking or even going backwards.
It doesn't work that way...If you want another team's free agent you have to pay up..It's a bidding war because everyone has money too...we may even be at a disadvantage because no one wants the scrutiny would playing here...Look at Portland paying up for players that haven't performed...Only the better teams get player willing to take less to play for a title...
holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
It was more a response to the claim people have made over the past 3 years that Melo's contract would one day be a bargain. I never bought it. The Knicks overpay for almost all their players, and then fans wonder why the roster has so many holes.You have no idea what Melo's real economic impact on the Knicks are to assess value of such a contract...I would venture to say he must be more than a bargain given TV deals that were able to signed at increased rates in 2013 during and after the 54 win season..These business men were more than willing to re-up his agreement weren't they...
The fact that people still tune in to watch these soft candy arse players Phil brought in who play with no passion and pride should be a testament to his value as a player...
I'm talking about impact on wins and losses. I'm not interested in Dolan's wallet though I think he'd make more with a team that regularly went deep in the playoffs anyway.
Impact on wins and losses have a lot more to do with team composition, coach, GM than with one player..If your argument was true, Kareem wouldn't need to go to the Lakers to win Championships...You have pushed this narrative for years knowing the flawed argument it presents...Until you give him GM responsibility to assemble a team of people he thinks he can win with, he should be blameless..Blame Phil..He gutted the team and decided to go with rookie coaches and an inexperienced soft players who want to get along...Surely you can't be blind to that fact unless it's convenient...I have never said it was just one player. To say that I'm knowingly making a false argument (when it's not even an argument I'm making) is unfair. I have always said Melo is just symptom of a problem that predated him by many years - overpaying in almost every transaction. He's currently the biggest symptom of that problem on our roster (though Noah is not far behind). But if they get rid of him and just overpay for other players, it won't make any difference.
I can go back and pull up arguments that you made prior to his signing the most recent contract to argue my point...Completely disagree about over paying...A guy who can help a team to the second round of the playoffs in NYC is more than worth 25 mil per year easily...Get the right coaches and player around him..If the GM decides to bring in people who only listens to him and only run his system in today's game then all bets are off...Maybe you are looking for a miracle worker at 25 mil per..You seemingly aren't willing to lay the blame where it should be...Maybe we disagree on roster construction..But at least you have seen him lead a team to the second round and that you can't argue...You can say that isn't worth 25 mil but Dolan may say different..
No, you can't. There is no way I argued he was the one and only problem.
Regarding the rest of what you said, the problem is that it is very hard to thoroughly fill out the rest of the roster when you spend 1/4 the cap on a guy who's just an aging volume scorer. It was predictable that when you spend that much on a guy like Melo, the roster will have holes. (And again that doesn't mean Melo is the only problem. He's just the biggest of many current symptoms of the problem.)No you wouldn't say he is the one and only problem but you would make opaque suggestions that he is responsible for the team's problems..The talent assemble on the starting unit can get us to the second round with a coach who emphasis defense...Our GM wanted a coach who would run his system...Our coach and bench as it turns out isn't up to that task..The guy with the biggest contract gets the blame I get it..But at this point I think he should go..I hope he allows for a trade...I jsut want to see this team flushed of management and coaches and players again and start anew...It's just tiring talking about one guy who isn't the problem when the rest of the roster sucks...It's like reading all the fake news and not talking about the real issues...Melo has become a distraction in what the real problem of this organization is..When you see Breen on TV saying Melo is the problem, pushing fake news, is when you know the house is about to implode...
Sure, if you spend 1/4 of the cap on Melo (or any player), you could still make it to the 2nd round. You're just making that task a lot harder. The more you overpay one player, the more you handicap yourself and the more flawless the rest of your decisions have to be though. It's unlikely that a GM/owner team that overpaid that much for one player would have the right judgment to fill out the rest of the roster effectively. The same flawed judgment involved in overpaying Melo led to all the other overpaying the Knicks did before him and have done since.Sure, that's easy to say when you don't have the task of running a business and putting people in seats...When you are a now publicly traded company like MSG, continued 20 and 30 win seasons aren't an option...So assessing "correct judgements" is solely based on point of view...For my part, I try to at least be realistic...
Plenty of corporations make short-term sacrifices for long-term prosperity. It's clear MSG/Dolan don't do that though. In that sense you're right. Unless they change their philosophy, I expect many more decades of terrible basketball. (It's ironic that, despite what you said, they've had continued 20 to 30 win seasons anyway.)Long term prosperity via a full rebuild isn't a given, yours is just a point of view that many here think could lead to prosperity...Nothing is perfect, there are many factors involved like good GM and coaches and lots of luck..Take Chicago for example, they have been rebuilding for the last two decades and is thinking about dumping Jimmy Butler and launching a third decade of rebuild..Atlanta have been rebuilding since Dominique and beyond, Milwaukee since Kareem and beyond...Nothing is a given..Just preferences that suits your taste...Heat got lucky putting pieces together and so did Dallas in the last decade...The key in my opinion is a good GM and coach combination on the same page with opportunity to take advantage of and luck...
When I talk about rebuilding, I'm talking about adding (mostly) younger players who are actually worth their salaries (as indicated by both the eye test and the metrics). I disagree with the premise that that would lead to a less successful team. Even in the immediate term, I do not think it would be a team that was worse than what we've had. There is no need to take a step backwards in this case (and there isn't much room to go backwards from these last few years anyway). I think you're defining "rebuilding" differently than I am. I just mean a new philosophy and mostly new players. I don't mean tanking or even going backwards.It doesn't work that way...If you want another team's free agent you have to pay up..It's a bidding war because everyone has money too...we may even be at a disadvantage because no one wants the scrutiny would playing here...Look at Portland paying up for players that haven't performed...Only the better teams get player willing to take less to play for a title...
I agree with that mostly. Free agency is probably the least likely way for a bad, unappealing team to add good players. Most likely, we have to get better through trades, drafting, and intelligent smaller FA signings (like more KOQs). There isn't the quick fix FA signing that you guys want. Overpaying for deeply flawed big name players is what's harmed the franchise all century.
Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
It was more a response to the claim people have made over the past 3 years that Melo's contract would one day be a bargain. I never bought it. The Knicks overpay for almost all their players, and then fans wonder why the roster has so many holes.You have no idea what Melo's real economic impact on the Knicks are to assess value of such a contract...I would venture to say he must be more than a bargain given TV deals that were able to signed at increased rates in 2013 during and after the 54 win season..These business men were more than willing to re-up his agreement weren't they...
The fact that people still tune in to watch these soft candy arse players Phil brought in who play with no passion and pride should be a testament to his value as a player...
I'm talking about impact on wins and losses. I'm not interested in Dolan's wallet though I think he'd make more with a team that regularly went deep in the playoffs anyway.
Impact on wins and losses have a lot more to do with team composition, coach, GM than with one player..If your argument was true, Kareem wouldn't need to go to the Lakers to win Championships...You have pushed this narrative for years knowing the flawed argument it presents...Until you give him GM responsibility to assemble a team of people he thinks he can win with, he should be blameless..Blame Phil..He gutted the team and decided to go with rookie coaches and an inexperienced soft players who want to get along...Surely you can't be blind to that fact unless it's convenient...I have never said it was just one player. To say that I'm knowingly making a false argument (when it's not even an argument I'm making) is unfair. I have always said Melo is just symptom of a problem that predated him by many years - overpaying in almost every transaction. He's currently the biggest symptom of that problem on our roster (though Noah is not far behind). But if they get rid of him and just overpay for other players, it won't make any difference.
I can go back and pull up arguments that you made prior to his signing the most recent contract to argue my point...Completely disagree about over paying...A guy who can help a team to the second round of the playoffs in NYC is more than worth 25 mil per year easily...Get the right coaches and player around him..If the GM decides to bring in people who only listens to him and only run his system in today's game then all bets are off...Maybe you are looking for a miracle worker at 25 mil per..You seemingly aren't willing to lay the blame where it should be...Maybe we disagree on roster construction..But at least you have seen him lead a team to the second round and that you can't argue...You can say that isn't worth 25 mil but Dolan may say different..
No, you can't. There is no way I argued he was the one and only problem.
Regarding the rest of what you said, the problem is that it is very hard to thoroughly fill out the rest of the roster when you spend 1/4 the cap on a guy who's just an aging volume scorer. It was predictable that when you spend that much on a guy like Melo, the roster will have holes. (And again that doesn't mean Melo is the only problem. He's just the biggest of many current symptoms of the problem.)No you wouldn't say he is the one and only problem but you would make opaque suggestions that he is responsible for the team's problems..The talent assemble on the starting unit can get us to the second round with a coach who emphasis defense...Our GM wanted a coach who would run his system...Our coach and bench as it turns out isn't up to that task..The guy with the biggest contract gets the blame I get it..But at this point I think he should go..I hope he allows for a trade...I jsut want to see this team flushed of management and coaches and players again and start anew...It's just tiring talking about one guy who isn't the problem when the rest of the roster sucks...It's like reading all the fake news and not talking about the real issues...Melo has become a distraction in what the real problem of this organization is..When you see Breen on TV saying Melo is the problem, pushing fake news, is when you know the house is about to implode...
Sure, if you spend 1/4 of the cap on Melo (or any player), you could still make it to the 2nd round. You're just making that task a lot harder. The more you overpay one player, the more you handicap yourself and the more flawless the rest of your decisions have to be though. It's unlikely that a GM/owner team that overpaid that much for one player would have the right judgment to fill out the rest of the roster effectively. The same flawed judgment involved in overpaying Melo led to all the other overpaying the Knicks did before him and have done since.Sure, that's easy to say when you don't have the task of running a business and putting people in seats...When you are a now publicly traded company like MSG, continued 20 and 30 win seasons aren't an option...So assessing "correct judgements" is solely based on point of view...For my part, I try to at least be realistic...
Plenty of corporations make short-term sacrifices for long-term prosperity. It's clear MSG/Dolan don't do that though. In that sense you're right. Unless they change their philosophy, I expect many more decades of terrible basketball. (It's ironic that, despite what you said, they've had continued 20 to 30 win seasons anyway.)Long term prosperity via a full rebuild isn't a given, yours is just a point of view that many here think could lead to prosperity...Nothing is perfect, there are many factors involved like good GM and coaches and lots of luck..Take Chicago for example, they have been rebuilding for the last two decades and is thinking about dumping Jimmy Butler and launching a third decade of rebuild..Atlanta have been rebuilding since Dominique and beyond, Milwaukee since Kareem and beyond...Nothing is a given..Just preferences that suits your taste...Heat got lucky putting pieces together and so did Dallas in the last decade...The key in my opinion is a good GM and coach combination on the same page with opportunity to take advantage of and luck...
When I talk about rebuilding, I'm talking about adding (mostly) younger players who are actually worth their salaries (as indicated by both the eye test and the metrics). I disagree with the premise that that would lead to a less successful team. Even in the immediate term, I do not think it would be a team that was worse than what we've had. There is no need to take a step backwards in this case (and there isn't much room to go backwards from these last few years anyway). I think you're defining "rebuilding" differently than I am. I just mean a new philosophy and mostly new players. I don't mean tanking or even going backwards.It doesn't work that way...If you want another team's free agent you have to pay up..It's a bidding war because everyone has money too...we may even be at a disadvantage because no one wants the scrutiny would playing here...Look at Portland paying up for players that haven't performed...Only the better teams get player willing to take less to play for a title...
I agree with that mostly. Free agency is probably the least likely way for a bad, unappealing team to add good players. Most likely, we have to get better through trades, drafting, and intelligent smaller FA signings (like more KOQs). There isn't the quick fix FA signing that you guys want. Overpaying for deeply flawed big name players is what's harmed the franchise all century.
It takes a lot of luck for things to fall into place. I would just as well look to sign younger players on bargain deals (like O'Quinn) and just stay patient. I'll keep Jennings as a stopgap PG because he seems to hold himself accountable and won't be too costly. He can create plays and at least makes KP better. Can't just role out there with a backup PG, need legit talent. He's not the answer, but is ok while developing or searching for a young PG. If Melo wants to stay, that's fine. He's still a good 2nd option, but he will have to understand the direction of the team and how he is just along for the ride. The quick fix plan is over. We tried to build around him in the short term. Now, we shift entirely to KP, and Melo has an option to continue to support the plan and take pressure off of KP on the offensive end of the floor.
SwishAndDish13 wrote:TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
Melo gets more than his fair share of roasting. I would even say it's irrationally high most the time given the rosters we've put together during his time here. My biggest concern out of this is that most modern players has zero interest in dealing with that which makes NY an unpopular destination.
In regards to the trade which is the topic at hand, the CBA is arguably a bigger problem than the NTC. If trades like that were manageable they could at least ask him for a list and try to do something. Other than LAC, I can't think of many plausible trades that are even possible and he would accept.
Oh totally agreed. That's why I wish he only got blasted for this. It's something I think he actually deserves it for. He's irrationally attacked all the damn time and I'm sure it's going to continue which is unfortunate and very annoying.
Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
It was more a response to the claim people have made over the past 3 years that Melo's contract would one day be a bargain. I never bought it. The Knicks overpay for almost all their players, and then fans wonder why the roster has so many holes.You have no idea what Melo's real economic impact on the Knicks are to assess value of such a contract...I would venture to say he must be more than a bargain given TV deals that were able to signed at increased rates in 2013 during and after the 54 win season..These business men were more than willing to re-up his agreement weren't they...
The fact that people still tune in to watch these soft candy arse players Phil brought in who play with no passion and pride should be a testament to his value as a player...
I'm talking about impact on wins and losses. I'm not interested in Dolan's wallet though I think he'd make more with a team that regularly went deep in the playoffs anyway.
Impact on wins and losses have a lot more to do with team composition, coach, GM than with one player..If your argument was true, Kareem wouldn't need to go to the Lakers to win Championships...You have pushed this narrative for years knowing the flawed argument it presents...Until you give him GM responsibility to assemble a team of people he thinks he can win with, he should be blameless..Blame Phil..He gutted the team and decided to go with rookie coaches and an inexperienced soft players who want to get along...Surely you can't be blind to that fact unless it's convenient...I have never said it was just one player. To say that I'm knowingly making a false argument (when it's not even an argument I'm making) is unfair. I have always said Melo is just symptom of a problem that predated him by many years - overpaying in almost every transaction. He's currently the biggest symptom of that problem on our roster (though Noah is not far behind). But if they get rid of him and just overpay for other players, it won't make any difference.
I can go back and pull up arguments that you made prior to his signing the most recent contract to argue my point...Completely disagree about over paying...A guy who can help a team to the second round of the playoffs in NYC is more than worth 25 mil per year easily...Get the right coaches and player around him..If the GM decides to bring in people who only listens to him and only run his system in today's game then all bets are off...Maybe you are looking for a miracle worker at 25 mil per..You seemingly aren't willing to lay the blame where it should be...Maybe we disagree on roster construction..But at least you have seen him lead a team to the second round and that you can't argue...You can say that isn't worth 25 mil but Dolan may say different..
No, you can't. There is no way I argued he was the one and only problem.
Regarding the rest of what you said, the problem is that it is very hard to thoroughly fill out the rest of the roster when you spend 1/4 the cap on a guy who's just an aging volume scorer. It was predictable that when you spend that much on a guy like Melo, the roster will have holes. (And again that doesn't mean Melo is the only problem. He's just the biggest of many current symptoms of the problem.)No you wouldn't say he is the one and only problem but you would make opaque suggestions that he is responsible for the team's problems..The talent assemble on the starting unit can get us to the second round with a coach who emphasis defense...Our GM wanted a coach who would run his system...Our coach and bench as it turns out isn't up to that task..The guy with the biggest contract gets the blame I get it..But at this point I think he should go..I hope he allows for a trade...I jsut want to see this team flushed of management and coaches and players again and start anew...It's just tiring talking about one guy who isn't the problem when the rest of the roster sucks...It's like reading all the fake news and not talking about the real issues...Melo has become a distraction in what the real problem of this organization is..When you see Breen on TV saying Melo is the problem, pushing fake news, is when you know the house is about to implode...
Sure, if you spend 1/4 of the cap on Melo (or any player), you could still make it to the 2nd round. You're just making that task a lot harder. The more you overpay one player, the more you handicap yourself and the more flawless the rest of your decisions have to be though. It's unlikely that a GM/owner team that overpaid that much for one player would have the right judgment to fill out the rest of the roster effectively. The same flawed judgment involved in overpaying Melo led to all the other overpaying the Knicks did before him and have done since.Sure, that's easy to say when you don't have the task of running a business and putting people in seats...When you are a now publicly traded company like MSG, continued 20 and 30 win seasons aren't an option...So assessing "correct judgements" is solely based on point of view...For my part, I try to at least be realistic...
Plenty of corporations make short-term sacrifices for long-term prosperity. It's clear MSG/Dolan don't do that though. In that sense you're right. Unless they change their philosophy, I expect many more decades of terrible basketball. (It's ironic that, despite what you said, they've had continued 20 to 30 win seasons anyway.)Long term prosperity via a full rebuild isn't a given, yours is just a point of view that many here think could lead to prosperity...Nothing is perfect, there are many factors involved like good GM and coaches and lots of luck..Take Chicago for example, they have been rebuilding for the last two decades and is thinking about dumping Jimmy Butler and launching a third decade of rebuild..Atlanta have been rebuilding since Dominique and beyond, Milwaukee since Kareem and beyond...Nothing is a given..Just preferences that suits your taste...Heat got lucky putting pieces together and so did Dallas in the last decade...The key in my opinion is a good GM and coach combination on the same page with opportunity to take advantage of and luck...
When I talk about rebuilding, I'm talking about adding (mostly) younger players who are actually worth their salaries (as indicated by both the eye test and the metrics). I disagree with the premise that that would lead to a less successful team. Even in the immediate term, I do not think it would be a team that was worse than what we've had. There is no need to take a step backwards in this case (and there isn't much room to go backwards from these last few years anyway). I think you're defining "rebuilding" differently than I am. I just mean a new philosophy and mostly new players. I don't mean tanking or even going backwards.It doesn't work that way...If you want another team's free agent you have to pay up..It's a bidding war because everyone has money too...we may even be at a disadvantage because no one wants the scrutiny would playing here...Look at Portland paying up for players that haven't performed...Only the better teams get player willing to take less to play for a title...
I agree with that mostly. Free agency is probably the least likely way for a bad, unappealing team to add good players. Most likely, we have to get better through trades, drafting, and intelligent smaller FA signings (like more KOQs). There isn't the quick fix FA signing that you guys want. Overpaying for deeply flawed big name players is what's harmed the franchise all century.It takes a lot of luck for things to fall into place. I would just as well look to sign younger players on bargain deals (like O'Quinn) and just stay patient. I'll keep Jennings as a stopgap PG because he seems to hold himself accountable and won't be too costly. He can create plays and at least makes KP better. Can't just role out there with a backup PG, need legit talent. He's not the answer, but is ok while developing or searching for a young PG. If Melo wants to stay, that's fine. He's still a good 2nd option, but he will have to understand the direction of the team and how he is just along for the ride. The quick fix plan is over. We tried to build around him in the short term. Now, we shift entirely to KP, and Melo has an option to continue to support the plan and take pressure off of KP on the offensive end of the floor.
That won't work either. Keeping Melo around with his flat footed defense and lousy attitude effects the whole team. It's simple really, the leader of a team needs to stand up, play hard and the others follow. If the leader slacks off, the others follow. I don't know what the answer is, but keeping Melo around even as a second fiddle, IMHO is only going to hurt more than help.
rickv3 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:holfresh wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
It was more a response to the claim people have made over the past 3 years that Melo's contract would one day be a bargain. I never bought it. The Knicks overpay for almost all their players, and then fans wonder why the roster has so many holes.You have no idea what Melo's real economic impact on the Knicks are to assess value of such a contract...I would venture to say he must be more than a bargain given TV deals that were able to signed at increased rates in 2013 during and after the 54 win season..These business men were more than willing to re-up his agreement weren't they...
The fact that people still tune in to watch these soft candy arse players Phil brought in who play with no passion and pride should be a testament to his value as a player...
I'm talking about impact on wins and losses. I'm not interested in Dolan's wallet though I think he'd make more with a team that regularly went deep in the playoffs anyway.
Impact on wins and losses have a lot more to do with team composition, coach, GM than with one player..If your argument was true, Kareem wouldn't need to go to the Lakers to win Championships...You have pushed this narrative for years knowing the flawed argument it presents...Until you give him GM responsibility to assemble a team of people he thinks he can win with, he should be blameless..Blame Phil..He gutted the team and decided to go with rookie coaches and an inexperienced soft players who want to get along...Surely you can't be blind to that fact unless it's convenient...I have never said it was just one player. To say that I'm knowingly making a false argument (when it's not even an argument I'm making) is unfair. I have always said Melo is just symptom of a problem that predated him by many years - overpaying in almost every transaction. He's currently the biggest symptom of that problem on our roster (though Noah is not far behind). But if they get rid of him and just overpay for other players, it won't make any difference.
I can go back and pull up arguments that you made prior to his signing the most recent contract to argue my point...Completely disagree about over paying...A guy who can help a team to the second round of the playoffs in NYC is more than worth 25 mil per year easily...Get the right coaches and player around him..If the GM decides to bring in people who only listens to him and only run his system in today's game then all bets are off...Maybe you are looking for a miracle worker at 25 mil per..You seemingly aren't willing to lay the blame where it should be...Maybe we disagree on roster construction..But at least you have seen him lead a team to the second round and that you can't argue...You can say that isn't worth 25 mil but Dolan may say different..
No, you can't. There is no way I argued he was the one and only problem.
Regarding the rest of what you said, the problem is that it is very hard to thoroughly fill out the rest of the roster when you spend 1/4 the cap on a guy who's just an aging volume scorer. It was predictable that when you spend that much on a guy like Melo, the roster will have holes. (And again that doesn't mean Melo is the only problem. He's just the biggest of many current symptoms of the problem.)No you wouldn't say he is the one and only problem but you would make opaque suggestions that he is responsible for the team's problems..The talent assemble on the starting unit can get us to the second round with a coach who emphasis defense...Our GM wanted a coach who would run his system...Our coach and bench as it turns out isn't up to that task..The guy with the biggest contract gets the blame I get it..But at this point I think he should go..I hope he allows for a trade...I jsut want to see this team flushed of management and coaches and players again and start anew...It's just tiring talking about one guy who isn't the problem when the rest of the roster sucks...It's like reading all the fake news and not talking about the real issues...Melo has become a distraction in what the real problem of this organization is..When you see Breen on TV saying Melo is the problem, pushing fake news, is when you know the house is about to implode...
Sure, if you spend 1/4 of the cap on Melo (or any player), you could still make it to the 2nd round. You're just making that task a lot harder. The more you overpay one player, the more you handicap yourself and the more flawless the rest of your decisions have to be though. It's unlikely that a GM/owner team that overpaid that much for one player would have the right judgment to fill out the rest of the roster effectively. The same flawed judgment involved in overpaying Melo led to all the other overpaying the Knicks did before him and have done since.Sure, that's easy to say when you don't have the task of running a business and putting people in seats...When you are a now publicly traded company like MSG, continued 20 and 30 win seasons aren't an option...So assessing "correct judgements" is solely based on point of view...For my part, I try to at least be realistic...
Plenty of corporations make short-term sacrifices for long-term prosperity. It's clear MSG/Dolan don't do that though. In that sense you're right. Unless they change their philosophy, I expect many more decades of terrible basketball. (It's ironic that, despite what you said, they've had continued 20 to 30 win seasons anyway.)Long term prosperity via a full rebuild isn't a given, yours is just a point of view that many here think could lead to prosperity...Nothing is perfect, there are many factors involved like good GM and coaches and lots of luck..Take Chicago for example, they have been rebuilding for the last two decades and is thinking about dumping Jimmy Butler and launching a third decade of rebuild..Atlanta have been rebuilding since Dominique and beyond, Milwaukee since Kareem and beyond...Nothing is a given..Just preferences that suits your taste...Heat got lucky putting pieces together and so did Dallas in the last decade...The key in my opinion is a good GM and coach combination on the same page with opportunity to take advantage of and luck...
When I talk about rebuilding, I'm talking about adding (mostly) younger players who are actually worth their salaries (as indicated by both the eye test and the metrics). I disagree with the premise that that would lead to a less successful team. Even in the immediate term, I do not think it would be a team that was worse than what we've had. There is no need to take a step backwards in this case (and there isn't much room to go backwards from these last few years anyway). I think you're defining "rebuilding" differently than I am. I just mean a new philosophy and mostly new players. I don't mean tanking or even going backwards.It doesn't work that way...If you want another team's free agent you have to pay up..It's a bidding war because everyone has money too...we may even be at a disadvantage because no one wants the scrutiny would playing here...Look at Portland paying up for players that haven't performed...Only the better teams get player willing to take less to play for a title...
I agree with that mostly. Free agency is probably the least likely way for a bad, unappealing team to add good players. Most likely, we have to get better through trades, drafting, and intelligent smaller FA signings (like more KOQs). There isn't the quick fix FA signing that you guys want. Overpaying for deeply flawed big name players is what's harmed the franchise all century.It takes a lot of luck for things to fall into place. I would just as well look to sign younger players on bargain deals (like O'Quinn) and just stay patient. I'll keep Jennings as a stopgap PG because he seems to hold himself accountable and won't be too costly. He can create plays and at least makes KP better. Can't just role out there with a backup PG, need legit talent. He's not the answer, but is ok while developing or searching for a young PG. If Melo wants to stay, that's fine. He's still a good 2nd option, but he will have to understand the direction of the team and how he is just along for the ride. The quick fix plan is over. We tried to build around him in the short term. Now, we shift entirely to KP, and Melo has an option to continue to support the plan and take pressure off of KP on the offensive end of the floor.
That won't work either. Keeping Melo around with his flat footed defense and lousy attitude effects the whole team. It's simple really, the leader of a team needs to stand up, play hard and the others follow. If the leader slacks off, the others follow. I don't know what the answer is, but keeping Melo around even as a second fiddle, IMHO is only going to hurt more than help.
Melo has been a big brother to Porzingis and has been essential to his development. He has also kept the heat and pressure off of him to take a larger role faster. For all of melo's flaws, his relationship with Porzingis and impact on him is very undervalued. Any attitude issues have been exaggerated by those looking to blame him. Not that he's blameless, but it's exaggerated.
Knicks67 wrote: quite a good video to watch on this topic.
Excellent, thanks for posting.
Any chance you have Phil Jackson's email address.....?! 😄
Bonn1997 wrote:Have we reached the point yet in the new CBA where people were assuring us that Melo's contract would be a bargain? Or is that next year?
Oh man I'm dying lol
CrushAlot wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Interesting that they 'overpaid' and gave the ntc. I thought the ntc was in response to Melo giving a little bit back.TeamBall wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Knixkik wrote:NTC
You think Melo would turn down the chance to live in California and play with Durant, Green, and Curry?!?! And he has a 15% trade kicker - so he'd get about $10 mil extra if he agreed to this (or any) trade.
That had to be more in response to the assertion that it's easy to just say "lets trade him" when he has all the power. At least I think. The warriors wouldn't trade Thompson for Melo so I doubt Knix even took that seriously.With that said, pretty much done with Melo after last night. There was nothing about what he did last night that isn't shameful. It was even commonly agreed on the post game that Melo got himself tossed on purpose. I just wish they blasted him like they do other guys on the team. Disgrace.
It was more a response to the claim people have made over the past 3 years that Melo's contract would one day be a bargain. I never bought it. The Knicks overpay for almost all their players, and then fans wonder why the roster has so many holes.
$124 million vs $129 million over 5yrs? Lol
magicTs wrote:Knicks67 wrote: quite a good video to watch on this topic.Excellent, thanks for posting.
Any chance you have Phil Jackson's email address.....?! 😄
That was damn nice, damn nice
TPercy wrote:Funny because the main argument for keeping Melo is that he takes up the responsibility of a father figure to the young ones. Melo pulling shit like this completely nullify that argument and since he is likely not going to get suspended, he sends a message that this kind of behavior is tolerable. What ever happened the to the guy who was organizing workouts for new players so that the team could gel together? Can't say that I'm fully on the "trade Melo" train, but you can't help but be extremely disappointed.Has Boogie even done something as bad as that?
I am praying that KP is nothing like Melo. I hope he learns not to jack up shots when doubled or tripled, I hope KP doesn't hold the ball to long so his teammates become spectators. I pray that KP uses his teammates to get easy baskets. I hope KP learns the importance or efficiency and shoots over 50% for his entire career. I hope KP doesn't play lazy defense that Melo is so known for which makes him a net 0 player. I hope KP doesn't put himself a head of his teammates and leave them hanging because his team is getting blown out.
Basically just do opposite of Daddy.
Vmart wrote:TPercy wrote:Funny because the main argument for keeping Melo is that he takes up the responsibility of a father figure to the young ones. Melo pulling shit like this completely nullify that argument and since he is likely not going to get suspended, he sends a message that this kind of behavior is tolerable. What ever happened the to the guy who was organizing workouts for new players so that the team could gel together? Can't say that I'm fully on the "trade Melo" train, but you can't help but be extremely disappointed.Has Boogie even done something as bad as that?
I am praying that KP is nothing like Melo. I hope he learns not to jack up shots when doubled or tripled, I hope KP doesn't hold the ball to long so his teammates become spectators. I pray that KP uses his teammates to get easy baskets. I hope KP learns the importance or efficiency and shoots over 50% for his entire career. I hope KP doesn't play lazy defense that Melo is so known for which makes him a net 0 player. I hope KP doesn't put himself a head of his teammates and leave them hanging because his team is getting blown out.
Basically just do opposite of Daddy.
He will learn from Melo's weaknesses. But a lot of good he can learn from him too. He has been good for his development.
Vmart wrote:TPercy wrote:Funny because the main argument for keeping Melo is that he takes up the responsibility of a father figure to the young ones. Melo pulling shit like this completely nullify that argument and since he is likely not going to get suspended, he sends a message that this kind of behavior is tolerable. What ever happened the to the guy who was organizing workouts for new players so that the team could gel together? Can't say that I'm fully on the "trade Melo" train, but you can't help but be extremely disappointed.Has Boogie even done something as bad as that?
I am praying that KP is nothing like Melo. I hope he learns not to jack up shots when doubled or tripled, I hope KP doesn't hold the ball to long so his teammates become spectators. I pray that KP uses his teammates to get easy baskets. I hope KP learns the importance or efficiency and shoots over 50% for his entire career. I hope KP doesn't play lazy defense that Melo is so known for which makes him a net 0 player. I hope KP doesn't put himself a head of his teammates and leave them hanging because his team is getting blown out.
Basically just do opposite of Daddy.
Melo's passing has been good lately but his 2 point FG% for the year is actually lower than the worst shooting NBA team's is.