Knicks · The answer is "42" (page 1)
Let's break it down.
New York is naturally cursed by the commercial demand to play the highest paid players rather than the players who are most effective. We've watched this act for thirty years or more. In fact, I attribute the appreciation and affection that Knicks fans have for the 11-15 players on the team as a yearning for that passion from players 1-10.
Hornacek [Rambis, and the rest of the coaching staff] are prisoners of the golden handcuffs that keep high-priced players on the floor ths limiting their options. Rambis can teach defense 24 x 7 and players who are deaf to it won't execute. Horny can run Triangles, pick and rolls, whatever turns you on, and at the end of the day brain-dead players will do in the coach and the system.
This particular set of high-priced players first lack chemistry. Spike Lee is more inspiring than any one of them [let's give Kristaps a bye given his sophomore status]. And that lack of chemistry manifests itself as lethargic play.
Let's take Noah for example. Yeah he's not as spry as he used to be but he's got some passion for winning but no passion for self-improvement. He's battling on the offensive boards and always in the thick of it. There's a putback - a bunny - to be had yet time after time after time he can't make the play. That's not age, lack of passion, that's all about not getting in the gym and fixing that shot.
And Melo? Makes millions on volume shooting. No hustle, no passion, no urgency.
Rose - playing for a contract. No commitment to the rest of the team.
Lee phones it in.
Not a lick of defense from a one of them aside from Noah. Every game they look like a bunch of strangers in a pickup game.
Ten, fifteen, twenty point leads are so predictably followed by bad judgement, selfish play, of just giddy indifference that the end of games make every fan look like Nostradamus.
The season is not lost - *yet* but this has got to change. I'm not talking about any grandious "blow it all up and start again" rhetoric or wishful NBA draft fantasies. The only way to make change and get high-priced players off the court in NY is to trade them.
At least two of the rotation players need to move.
I am for tank. The players I like are KP, Willie, Kuz and Baker because they are the Knicks from the very beginning. The others could careless for them. Their pride is elsewhere.
franco12 wrote:I agree with both of you - I think there is some sound insight - but ownership is largely driving this thing into the ditch - in fact, the reason we can't right the ship is the fact that we've been in such a deep hole, you don't dig out overnight - which is what Phil has been trying to do.
What I like about Phil's leadership is that he's driven a steady course out of the ditch - as quickly as the rules allow. And, yes patience is needed until its obvious something's amiss.
Something is amiss.
Vmart wrote:We now know free agency doesn't work. Trades don't work either what is left to do but the draft which has yielded a franchise type player. If the draft was the success why not go at it again. We sure as hell haven't got FA that has turned this franchise around and we haven't gotten anything in the trade market but side ways deals that take away the only advantage which is the teams draft picks.I am for tank. The players I like are KP, Willie, Kuz and Baker because they are the Knicks from the very beginning. The others could careless for them. Their pride is elsewhere.
FA 'can' work and does. We are far better off because of it in terms of talent. And we have players who, though not stars, could get us to the playoffs if we can get the starphucks out of the way. As I said, in NY, the only way to get them out of the way is to trade them.
The draft was successful but three teams ahead of us weren't nor were many picking after us. Tanking is a fool's errand. take your chances with the pick you get.
No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.
The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).
That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?
This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...
Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.
At least we have KP.
If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.
crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.
The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).
That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?
This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...
Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.
At least we have KP.
If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.
I actually think this team still has a chance to get it's act together and finish the year strong. #1 get KP FULLY healthy. #2 keep moving away from the Triangle cuz these guys are better playing PnR basketball. #3 Keep working on the Defense and developing the younger players.
There is still a lot of untapped talent on this team. Still more development needed by some of the younger guys. Jeff has to ignore Phil and Rambis and just do his own thing. I believe he did that last game. They went with a 4 Out PnR heavy offense EARLY and kept doing it. It's CRYSTAL CLEAR that these players are better playing a Modern Spread Offense.
crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.
The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).
That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?
This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...
Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.
At least we have KP.
If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.
Dude you name like 4 teams out 30, do the math on that percentage. We had Ewing and no high draft picks for 15 years and made the playoffs all of them. Even in the walt frazier days, they made trades to build championship teams. They didnt build through no lottery.
You want to talk Lottery, look at what KD just did, look at what shaq did, labron, payton, the list is endless. Your precious draft picks will leave your ass high and dry if your not winning, and improving every year..It's the nature of sports. Ewing gave 15 yrs to this franchise and there wasn't a GM that could bring in the peices.
You think KP is going to sit around ny after watching the nba finals on tv yr after yr while we keep sucking and not having enough. It's never been all about draft picks, Its all about making the right moves.
High price stars win championships, Curry would have been 20+ mill now if it wasnt for his ankle issues prior to his rookie contrat ending.
Phil is all about puttin the circle in the square box and and lets see if we can make a triangle, he's not even on the same page as the coaching staff he hires.. It's harder to get on the same page when one person is in the begining of the book, and the other is in the middle.
This is the best starting 5 the knicks have had in 20 yrs, a balance starting 5, and I mean that as far as talent. The problem is, there's no sacrificing in that line up.
Aside from melo and Rose, the starting line up should have been shooking up so you can maximize your talent. Like letting kp come off the bench to play with jennings (a more willing passer) and willy (his former teammate)
The only way to make change and get high-priced players off the court in NY is to trade them.
At least two of the rotation players need to move.
Which high priced players are you wanting to trade? Is it possible to trade them? The three highest paid players on the Knicks are Melo, Rose, and Noah. Melo cannot be traded. His salary makes it almost impossible to move him. In addition he has the ntc clause given to him by the current club prez. Rose's salary is almost as high, he has a horrific injury history, and recently has demonstrated some very concerning emotional/ and or character issues. Noah's play, contract and age also make him a guy that would be extremely difficult to move. I think Lee could easily be traded but he has a very reasonable contract. He also reportedly took less to be a Knick and play with Noah. Do you trade that player?
fwk00 wrote:There are a number of stupid loops that just won't go away. The Melo haters, the Phil haters, the Rambis haters, the Triangle haters, the Rose/Noah haters, the Horny haters, the Asshola experience, and so on. Perpetual circlular blame.Let's break it down.
New York is naturally cursed by the commercial demand to play the highest paid players rather than the players who are most effective. We've watched this act for thirty years or more. In fact, I attribute the appreciation and affection that Knicks fans have for the 11-15 players on the team as a yearning for that passion from players 1-10.
Hornacek [Rambis, and the rest of the coaching staff] are prisoners of the golden handcuffs that keep high-priced players on the floor ths limiting their options. Rambis can teach defense 24 x 7 and players who are deaf to it won't execute. Horny can run Triangles, pick and rolls, whatever turns you on, and at the end of the day brain-dead players will do in the coach and the system.
This particular set of high-priced players first lack chemistry. Spike Lee is more inspiring than any one of them [let's give Kristaps a bye given his sophomore status]. And that lack of chemistry manifests itself as lethargic play.
Let's take Noah for example. Yeah he's not as spry as he used to be but he's got some passion for winning but no passion for self-improvement. He's battling on the offensive boards and always in the thick of it. There's a putback - a bunny - to be had yet time after time after time he can't make the play. That's not age, lack of passion, that's all about not getting in the gym and fixing that shot.
And Melo? Makes millions on volume shooting. No hustle, no passion, no urgency.
Rose - playing for a contract. No commitment to the rest of the team.
Lee phones it in.
Not a lick of defense from a one of them aside from Noah. Every game they look like a bunch of strangers in a pickup game.
Ten, fifteen, twenty point leads are so predictably followed by bad judgement, selfish play, of just giddy indifference that the end of games make every fan look like Nostradamus.
The season is not lost - *yet* but this has got to change. I'm not talking about any grandious "blow it all up and start again" rhetoric or wishful NBA draft fantasies. The only way to make change and get high-priced players off the court in NY is to trade them.
At least two of the rotation players need to move.
Very well said. And accurate.
crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.
The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).
That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?
This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...
Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.
At least we have KP.
If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.
Yeah, I was referring to hitchhikers guide, not Lance Thomas.
IMO, the problem is not management per se. The NBAdoes not compensate for the differences in taxes from one franchise to another. That is one problem the Knicks have especially with the higher priced FAs. Miami's offer being equal to ours is always a sweeter financial deal. This is true for many franchises on the up and downside of the equation.
NY's fanbase and media base, while certainly basketball knowledgeable, may be the most vicious in all of sports. This eliminates many players who self-select their way out of ever truly wanting to sign here. This is not to say their agents don't advertise that NY "is interested" whenever they want to up the ante.
I'm an outlier in that I think Dolan has always wanted a winner and has tried his best to make it so. Obviously, he spent many years failing. And I may be an outlier in that I am wholeheartedly supportive of PJ. I cannot think of anyone smarter, more invested in the Knicks improving, or more dedicated to getting it done. It should be noted that Dolan has repeatedly attracted GMs and management who helped build contenders elsewhere. We are on the right track, IMO.
I'm fascinated by the Rose incident.While the conventional wisdom is [loudly] to punish the player with suspension, Phil has chosen to pragmatically motivate Rose by standing by Rose as a player and punishing the behavior with a large fine that likely makes its way to a local charity. maybe Phil recognises that young players from tough backgrounds are used to being punished right or wrong and more of that response will not yield the desired effect. This is as ZEN as it gets folks. Let's see if Rose resonds to kindness better than public and team embarassment.
I disagree about the teardowns. I hated layden/Houston teams - they were awful. I lament that Larry Brown was side-railed but I liked what Isiah Thomas tried to do under the circumstances. While it didn't work out, it was an honest effort to beat the odds. the Walsh/D'Antoni regime was also looking good until the disasterous Bargnani deal [forced on the Knicks by that agents group from hell].
Phil's attempt is looking great future-wise but stumbling recently. IMO, Jennings, Thomas, Sasha, and even Lee should be made available in trade. I add Lee because I think he has high value in a year where we are unlikely to be able to cash in on his window. Baker and Kuz need minutesand a player or two who play both eneds of the court.
I have never advocated trading first round picks unless the return is outstanding. I don't imagine Phil making that kind of deal.
knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.
The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).
That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?
This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...
Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.
At least we have KP.
If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.
Dude you name like 4 teams out 30, do the math on that percentage. We had Ewing and no high draft picks for 15 years and made the playoffs all of them. Even in the walt frazier days, they made trades to build championship teams. They didnt build through no lottery.
You want to talk Lottery, look at what KD just did, look at what shaq did, labron, payton, the list is endless. Your precious draft picks will leave your ass high and dry if your not winning, and improving every year..It's the nature of sports. Ewing gave 15 yrs to this franchise and there wasn't a GM that could bring in the peices.
You think KP is going to sit around ny after watching the nba finals on tv yr after yr while we keep sucking and not having enough. It's never been all about draft picks, Its all about making the right moves.
High price stars win championships, Curry would have been 20+ mill now if it wasnt for his ankle issues prior to his rookie contrat ending.
Phil is all about puttin the circle in the square box and and lets see if we can make a triangle, he's not even on the same page as the coaching staff he hires.. It's harder to get on the same page when one person is in the begining of the book, and the other is in the middle.
This is the best starting 5 the knicks have had in 20 yrs, a balance starting 5, and I mean that as far as talent. The problem is, there's no sacrificing in that line up.
Aside from melo and Rose, the starting line up should have been shooking up so you can maximize your talent. Like letting kp come off the bench to play with jennings (a more willing passer) and willy (his former teammate)
Unless the bottom falls out through an unfortunate series of evets there's no sane logic in tanking - none. We have our pick no matter what number it falls on. That's enough to be in the draft game.
And I agree comepletely that its all about putting talent and chemistry on the court. This year the Knicks are loaded with talent and need to tweak the chemistry. IMO, the triangle criticism is out-of-control. The Porzingis posse has no problem with it, the knuckleheads will fail in any system.
CrushAlot wrote:The only way to make change and get high-priced players off the court in NY is to trade them.
At least two of the rotation players need to move.
Which high priced players are you wanting to trade? Is it possible to trade them? The three highest paid players on the Knicks are Melo, Rose, and Noah. Melo cannot be traded. His salary makes it almost impossible to move him. In addition he has the ntc clause given to him by the current club prez. Rose's salary is almost as high, he has a horrific injury history, and recently has demonstrated some very concerning emotional/ and or character issues. Noah's play, contract and age also make him a guy that would be extremely difficult to move. I think Lee could easily be traded but he has a very reasonable contract. He also reportedly took less to be a Knick and play with Noah. Do you trade that player?
Pragmatically, I don't imagine Melo, Rose or Noah being moved. Lee's value is at an all-time high - if there's a sure thing tradeable asset its Lee. Now You need a high first-rounder or a rock solid young player in return [this is the year we need a Debusschere quality acquisition - somebody who plays to win on both sides of the court - somebody probably flyting under the radar).
My feeling about Thomas is that while he's a "hard-worker" [and we all admire and salute that] he's the wrong guy to replace Melo on the court. Kuz, while still learning defense is the firepower you want on the court. Sliding Thomas down the bench seems wrong. I'd move him to a team that would appreciate what he brings [Memphis, Detroit, Denver, Phx, maybe a few others].
Sasha, IMO, needs to simply become another coach. Groom a kid from the D-league or someone who got released.Get either a gunner or a defensive specialist, we'd be looking for minutes in games slipping out of control either way.
Jennings, like Thomas is one of those guys who loves being in NY, works hard and so on but Holiday and Baker have shown they need more minutes. He has real trade value - see what it is...
blkexec wrote:Phills knick championship team was a mix of FAs and draft picks. So it doesn't matter where the talent comes from.....its all about the recipe of ingredients. It's like phill already has a recipe, but he's missing some of his main ingredients.
Agreed. We're closing in on the right mix but not quite there yet.
Two chemistry minded trades:
Lee, Jennings and Thomas for Knight and Dudley
Lee and Jennings for Rubio and Shabazz M.
Some clearing space/improving bench trades:
Lee, Jennings and Plumlee for Bogut and Dallas' second-rounder (#34 at the moment)
Jennings and N'Dour for Devin Harris and the Dallas second-rounder
Jennings for Derrick Williams
Thomas and N'Dourfor Connaughton and Aminu
I'm also a big fan of Terry Rozier and Jamal Murray, neither of whom can I figure out a way to get over here.
Hail Mary;
Lee and Jennings the Houston second-rounder (#57-ish) to reunite Dragic with Horny
fwk00 wrote:As far as trading these guys, here are a handful of probable or improbable trades I'd pursue;Two chemistry minded trades:
Lee, Jennings and Thomas for Knight and Dudley
Lee and Jennings for Rubio and Shabazz M.
Some clearing space/improving bench trades:
Lee, Jennings and Plumlee for Bogut and Dallas' second-rounder (#34 at the moment)
Jennings and N'Dour for Devin Harris and the Dallas second-rounder
Jennings for Derrick Williams
Thomas and N'Dourfor Connaughton and Aminu
I'm also a big fan of Terry Rozier and Jamal Murray, neither of whom can I figure out a way to get over here.
Hail Mary;
Lee and Jennings the Houston second-rounder (#57-ish) to reunite Dragic with Horny
Okay, I like either of those first two trades, but particularly the Phoenix one.
fwk00 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.
The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).
That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?
This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...
Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.
At least we have KP.
If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.
Dude you name like 4 teams out 30, do the math on that percentage. We had Ewing and no high draft picks for 15 years and made the playoffs all of them. Even in the walt frazier days, they made trades to build championship teams. They didnt build through no lottery.
You want to talk Lottery, look at what KD just did, look at what shaq did, labron, payton, the list is endless. Your precious draft picks will leave your ass high and dry if your not winning, and improving every year..It's the nature of sports. Ewing gave 15 yrs to this franchise and there wasn't a GM that could bring in the peices.
You think KP is going to sit around ny after watching the nba finals on tv yr after yr while we keep sucking and not having enough. It's never been all about draft picks, Its all about making the right moves.
High price stars win championships, Curry would have been 20+ mill now if it wasnt for his ankle issues prior to his rookie contrat ending.
Phil is all about puttin the circle in the square box and and lets see if we can make a triangle, he's not even on the same page as the coaching staff he hires.. It's harder to get on the same page when one person is in the begining of the book, and the other is in the middle.
This is the best starting 5 the knicks have had in 20 yrs, a balance starting 5, and I mean that as far as talent. The problem is, there's no sacrificing in that line up.
Aside from melo and Rose, the starting line up should have been shooking up so you can maximize your talent. Like letting kp come off the bench to play with jennings (a more willing passer) and willy (his former teammate)
Unless the bottom falls out through an unfortunate series of evets there's no sane logic in tanking - none. We have our pick no matter what number it falls on. That's enough to be in the draft game.
And I agree comepletely that its all about putting talent and chemistry on the court. This year the Knicks are loaded with talent and need to tweak the chemistry. IMO, the triangle criticism is out-of-control. The Porzingis posse has no problem with it, the knuckleheads will fail in any system.
I didn't say tank. I said don't trade first round picks to try to right this ship and stop trying to take shortcuts. Where did I say tank? I said rebuild the team using our draft picks - don't trade them away for the likes of Bargnani or Steve Francis or Eddy Curry or Stephon Marbury, etc.
Indiana is a team that predominantly keeps its picks and they always have a very competitive team. They just got Myles Turner at 13 and that looks like a steal. One of the few times they've traded their first rounder in the past ten years? They got George Hill... for a pick that became Kawhi Leonard.
All I'm saying is keep the damn picks. I'm not opposed to signing free agents or trades of existing contracts. But I want a young group of players we slowly build.
Knicks1248 says I only named 4 teams out of 30. Check out the Utah Jazz, Portland, Indiana, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Lakers, Washington, Celtics, Orlando, Sixers, Raptors, Hawks, Grizzlies.
Those teams all build around their draft picks. You can augment with signings and the like, but those teams KEEP their picks. And make good ones. Not all those teams are having great seasons, but they mostly have deep rosters and abilities to make moves. And some of those teams are very good.
crzymdups wrote:fwk00 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:Isn't Lance Thomas number 42? I would argue he is not the answer.No hitchhiker's guide contains the solution here.
The problem is the management as installed by Dolan and Mills. They enabled Marbury, they enabled Melo, they're in the process of enabling Rose (which should tell you everything you need to know when it comes to whether or not they'll re-sign him).
That means no accountability, players further down the totem pole who resent the star treatment given to the big boys, and things like zero effort on D. Why play hard on D if you don't get taken out of the game? Why make the extra pass and find the best shot when your leader doesn't bother most of the time?
This team is a mess, and dare I quote Phil - "clumsily constructed"...
Isn't it funny that in three complete tear downs of the roster that he's never been able to better the supposed clumsy roster he inherited. In Woodson, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Felton, Pablo, etc's final season the team went 37-45 after the disastrous Bargnani trade and Tyson missing a good portion of the season with a broken leg. We're in Phil's 4th full season and he's never won more than 32.
At least we have KP.
If Dolan tries to make a panic move to right the ship and "move two rotation players" and that includes shipping out a first round pick, I might truly be done with this team. Dolan - if you're listening - can we for once rebuild the team with draft picks? Have you noticed how much the Garden faithful love rookie players EVERY SINGLE TIME? Imagine if we had 3 or 4 straight years in the lottery and got two stars and two very solid rotation players. That's how you build a team - c.f. Golden State, OKC, San Antonio, heck even Cleveland did that after they lost Lebron and that worked out pretty well for them. There's no short cut here.
Dude you name like 4 teams out 30, do the math on that percentage. We had Ewing and no high draft picks for 15 years and made the playoffs all of them. Even in the walt frazier days, they made trades to build championship teams. They didnt build through no lottery.
You want to talk Lottery, look at what KD just did, look at what shaq did, labron, payton, the list is endless. Your precious draft picks will leave your ass high and dry if your not winning, and improving every year..It's the nature of sports. Ewing gave 15 yrs to this franchise and there wasn't a GM that could bring in the peices.
You think KP is going to sit around ny after watching the nba finals on tv yr after yr while we keep sucking and not having enough. It's never been all about draft picks, Its all about making the right moves.
High price stars win championships, Curry would have been 20+ mill now if it wasnt for his ankle issues prior to his rookie contrat ending.
Phil is all about puttin the circle in the square box and and lets see if we can make a triangle, he's not even on the same page as the coaching staff he hires.. It's harder to get on the same page when one person is in the begining of the book, and the other is in the middle.
This is the best starting 5 the knicks have had in 20 yrs, a balance starting 5, and I mean that as far as talent. The problem is, there's no sacrificing in that line up.
Aside from melo and Rose, the starting line up should have been shooking up so you can maximize your talent. Like letting kp come off the bench to play with jennings (a more willing passer) and willy (his former teammate)
Unless the bottom falls out through an unfortunate series of evets there's no sane logic in tanking - none. We have our pick no matter what number it falls on. That's enough to be in the draft game.
And I agree comepletely that its all about putting talent and chemistry on the court. This year the Knicks are loaded with talent and need to tweak the chemistry. IMO, the triangle criticism is out-of-control. The Porzingis posse has no problem with it, the knuckleheads will fail in any system.
I didn't say tank. I said don't trade first round picks to try to right this ship and stop trying to take shortcuts. Where did I say tank? I said rebuild the team using our draft picks - don't trade them away for the likes of Bargnani or Steve Francis or Eddy Curry or Stephon Marbury, etc.
Indiana is a team that predominantly keeps its picks and they always have a very competitive team. They just got Myles Turner at 13 and that looks like a steal. One of the few times they've traded their first rounder in the past ten years? They got George Hill... for a pick that became Kawhi Leonard.
All I'm saying is keep the damn picks. I'm not opposed to signing free agents or trades of existing contracts. But I want a young group of players we slowly build.
Knicks1248 says I only named 4 teams out of 30. Check out the Utah Jazz, Portland, Indiana, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Lakers, Washington, Celtics, Orlando, Sixers, Raptors, Hawks, Grizzlies.
Those teams all build around their draft picks. You can augment with signings and the like, but those teams KEEP their picks. And make good ones. Not all those teams are having great seasons, but they mostly have deep rosters and abilities to make moves. And some of those teams are very good.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply you advocated tanking but its certainly a sentiment being circulated here and elsewhere.
fwk00 wrote:
Let's break it down.
Systematically, what the Knicks need and the league needs is a widespread systematic use of non guaranteed contracts and a hard cap like the NFL operates.
Logistically, the league needs to permanently switch to a 4 point shot option, expanding the size of the floor, raising the height of the rim, reducing the shot clock and increasing the size of the starting lineup on the floor ( instead of 5 players, make it 6 or )
Players can only act like jerks because they can get away with it.
Do think STAT would have been spending time promoting milk baths or some movie festival if he could have been cut anytime after the first year of that deal with all the rest of the money being voided? Or do you think he would have actually tried on defense?
The league needs to widen the general talent pool and create alternative ways to compete and win.
It's true to real life. Hot girls can act like entitled trash and most can get away with it, because their looks are currency. Ugly girls can't get away with the same behavior in the same way.
The NBA system simply does not have an effective checks and balances system in place to not let a few players act like spoiled brats. And Melo simply does not have the self discipline and character to do whats right for winning and his team over his own desires to be an icon.