Knicks · Trade is in Phil's hands not Melo's (page 1)
I haven't seen this big negative since Phil officially began the Melo trade talks. Let's be honest first the team went into a tailspin. Only after they were 14-10 and then crashed into 16-20 or something like that did Phil begin the talks.
That's all they are right now. People wanted someone with balls and leadership skills instead of Dolan. This is Phil. Good and bad. He is taking all the heat and willing to take big risks even though the criticism comes with it. Such as drafting KP. Firing Fisher. Making a Rose trade. Now Melo on the block. We have leadership and someone who is not afraid of public pressure. I prefer our current situation to 3 years ago or 5 years ago. We will have young players capspace and veterans to trade or work with (like Melo/Rose/lee). We are in a much better spot than we were 3 years ago when PJ arrived.
nyknickzingis wrote:I think what we are seeing is the team also play less complacent since the Melo trade talks officially began. We are playing better ball the last 10 games and that's despite the injuries to KP and Rose in many of those games.I haven't seen this big negative since Phil officially began the Melo trade talks. Let's be honest first the team went into a tailspin. Only after they were 14-10 and then crashed into 16-20 or something like that did Phil begin the talks.
That's all they are right now. People wanted someone with balls and leadership skills instead of Dolan. This is Phil. Good and bad. He is taking all the heat and willing to take big risks even though the criticism comes with it. Such as drafting KP. Firing Fisher. Making a Rose trade. Now Melo on the block. We have leadership and someone who is not afraid of public pressure. I prefer our current situation to 3 years ago or 5 years ago. We will have young players capspace and veterans to trade or work with (like Melo/Rose/lee). We are in a much better spot than we were 3 years ago when PJ arrived.
Most definitely this is a better state of affairs now. We have some building blocks in place and not only cap space but PICKS!!! Gotta be able to see beyond this current moment and the tough losses.
Phil has a lot of work to do over the next few weeks and this summer. The next decisions will be extremely important to establish the future direction of the franchise. This should be very exciting times.
T Wolves
Sixers
Maybe Magic if their Dragic trade falls through
King's are crazy enough
Bucks maybe a long shot
Add Willy being legit starter talent and that we are going to be drafting a lottery talent this summer.
There's anywhere from 30-40 million in cap space this summer.
We can add some serious young talent to this team that can play with KP, Willy. We can keep Melo and he needs to get on the same page with KP and play team ball. If Melo wants to play simply to be the man, he has to move on. If he is willing to stay to be Dad Melo, we should keep him.
Get this team a point guard that can give the team some outside shooting and 7-8 assists a night, we will develop the young players as well as be more competitive
Took the Rose/Noah/Lee with Melo experiment to go all in and it failed. But we are not stuck with that position for good. Rose is a free agent. Melo and Lee can easily be traded if we want. Or we can keep them to be vets that can help the team win more games.
It's not a good situation for KP, Willy and our 2017 lotto pick if next year they play on a 60 loss team. It's good they may play with vets like Melo, Lee, Noah (hopefully Noah off the bench). I have yet to see a team that did what the Lakers are doing or the Sixers (tank every year) and end up with a championship team.
EnySpree wrote:The beautiful thing about everything is we don't have to trade Melo.... would we like to? Yes. Melo had the no trade clause. If he express that staying in NY is more important than anything, then he can stay. We have so many other options to move players and gain assets for the draft. The Knicks are rebuilding whether anybody likes it or not. I think Phil might be done trYing to get Melo help. The future is nowi dont mind keeping him but it makes sense for both sides to make a trade. Obviously we will never get close to what we gave up but even one good young player especially a point guard would be enticing
StarksEwing1 wrote:EnySpree wrote:The beautiful thing about everything is we don't have to trade Melo.... would we like to? Yes. Melo had the no trade clause. If he express that staying in NY is more important than anything, then he can stay. We have so many other options to move players and gain assets for the draft. The Knicks are rebuilding whether anybody likes it or not. I think Phil might be done trYing to get Melo help. The future is nowi dont mind keeping him but it makes sense for both sides to make a trade. Obviously we will never get close to what we gave up but even one good young player especially a point guard would be enticing
Yeah man it is what it is now. Melo might end up coming of the bench like Zach Randolph. Not a knock to his talent, but KP and Willy ate the 4 & 5 and we can't be playing games trying to accommodate Melo at the 4.
smackeddog wrote:All this focus on a melo trade - I'm more desperate to see a rose trade, I'm hopeful we can get something of interest back. That article today said at least one opposing team was interested. I think potential landing spots are:T Wolves
Sixers
Maybe Magic if their Dragic trade falls through
King's are crazy enough
Bucks maybe a long shot
I'm with you on this and would much rather keep Melo and trade Rose over trading Melo and keeping Rose.
newyorker4ever wrote:Rose is gone regardless.smackeddog wrote:All this focus on a melo trade - I'm more desperate to see a rose trade, I'm hopeful we can get something of interest back. That article today said at least one opposing team was interested. I think potential landing spots are:T Wolves
Sixers
Maybe Magic if their Dragic trade falls through
King's are crazy enough
Bucks maybe a long shotI'm with you on this and would much rather keep Melo and trade Rose over trading Melo and keeping Rose.
StarksEwing1 wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:Rose is gone regardless.smackeddog wrote:All this focus on a melo trade - I'm more desperate to see a rose trade, I'm hopeful we can get something of interest back. That article today said at least one opposing team was interested. I think potential landing spots are:T Wolves
Sixers
Maybe Magic if their Dragic trade falls through
King's are crazy enough
Bucks maybe a long shotI'm with you on this and would much rather keep Melo and trade Rose over trading Melo and keeping Rose.
Yeah after the season he is but i'd rather he be gone now and get something for him and although i agree he'll be gone after the season i wouldn't put anything past Phil and his thinking cause he could surprise everyone and sign him. I don't think that will happen but Phil is Phil.
EnySpree wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:EnySpree wrote:The beautiful thing about everything is we don't have to trade Melo.... would we like to? Yes. Melo had the no trade clause. If he express that staying in NY is more important than anything, then he can stay. We have so many other options to move players and gain assets for the draft. The Knicks are rebuilding whether anybody likes it or not. I think Phil might be done trYing to get Melo help. The future is nowi dont mind keeping him but it makes sense for both sides to make a trade. Obviously we will never get close to what we gave up but even one good young player especially a point guard would be enticingYeah man it is what it is now. Melo might end up coming of the bench like Zach Randolph. Not a knock to his talent, but KP and Willy ate the 4 & 5 and we can't be playing games trying to accommodate Melo at the 4.
Melos ego is larger than Phil's. As long as melo is a knick, he will never agree to coming off the bench. Currently he has the franchise and fans on lock down. That's why only 3 nba players have a NTC.
Whenever you top two players are ball dominant offensively, it's like playing basketball in quicksand. Eventually u stop moving and become a spectator like the rest of us. I think Rose would be better off as a six man on the team. That way he can come into the game and go nut, with passing as his 3rd or 4th option.
newyorker4ever wrote:Yeah you never know. I agree I think he could be gone at the deadline IF anyone is interested. We know Rose is great at going to the rim but thats about itStarksEwing1 wrote:newyorker4ever wrote:Rose is gone regardless.smackeddog wrote:All this focus on a melo trade - I'm more desperate to see a rose trade, I'm hopeful we can get something of interest back. That article today said at least one opposing team was interested. I think potential landing spots are:T Wolves
Sixers
Maybe Magic if their Dragic trade falls through
King's are crazy enough
Bucks maybe a long shotI'm with you on this and would much rather keep Melo and trade Rose over trading Melo and keeping Rose.
Yeah after the season he is but i'd rather he be gone now and get something for him and although i agree he'll be gone after the season i wouldn't put anything past Phil and his thinking cause he could surprise everyone and sign him. I don't think that will happen but Phil is Phil.
nyknickzingis wrote:Just realize KP is number 5 ranked in under 25 aged prospects in the league.
Add Willy being legit starter talent and that we are going to be drafting a lottery talent this summer.There's anywhere from 30-40 million in cap space this summer.
We can add some serious young talent to this team that can play with KP, Willy. We can keep Melo and he needs to get on the same page with KP and play team ball. If Melo wants to play simply to be the man, he has to move on. If he is willing to stay to be Dad Melo, we should keep him.
Get this team a point guard that can give the team some outside shooting and 7-8 assists a night, we will develop the young players as well as be more competitive
Took the Rose/Noah/Lee with Melo experiment to go all in and it failed. But we are not stuck with that position for good. Rose is a free agent. Melo and Lee can easily be traded if we want. Or we can keep them to be vets that can help the team win more games.
It's not a good situation for KP, Willy and our 2017 lotto pick if next year they play on a 60 loss team. It's good they may play with vets like Melo, Lee, Noah (hopefully Noah off the bench). I have yet to see a team that did what the Lakers are doing or the Sixers (tank every year) and end up with a championship team.
Speaking of that under 25 list, willy could easily be considered for the back end of that list if he continues to improve this rapidly. Willy could end up better than Randle and maker, for example, who are the last 2 names on the list.
nyknickzingis wrote:Took the Rose/Noah/Lee with Melo experiment to go all in and it failed. But we are not stuck with that position for good. Rose is a free agent. Melo and Lee can easily be traded if we want. Or we can keep them to be vets that can help the team win more games.
Noah's contract is the worst contract in the entire NBA. And there are some real stinkers for contracts out there, which is saying quite a bit about how badly the Noah deal will hurt the Knicks this year and the next three years after. After waiting to get Stoudamire and Bargs OFF the payroll, the Knicks go ahead and lock in another bad big man contract for a long time.
Rose COST the Knicks Robin Lopez and Jerian Grant. Lopez played actual team basketball, he wasn't elite in any one area, but wasn't horrible in any one area either. He was on a good value contract, his age wasn't prohibitive for the length of the deal and he wanted to play here. He also cost the Knicks nothing but cap space. He fit the four criteria of a good FA signing A) Helps you now B) Offers a viable trade asset both now and later C) Signed to a value contract against the life of the deal D) Team would not be paying him deep into his decline phase of his career.
While Jerian Grant might not pan out, and that's looking more and more true each day, it's still, as a matter of principle, a bad idea to keep trading your cost controlled young players instead of giving them some chance to develop. (While Grant's window is closing, at least some kind of upside exists, where it does not with a broken down Noah and Rose. )
Part of the deal also was dumping Jose Calderon's contract.
Which goes back to the horrible deal that sent Chandler/Felton for Larkin, Ellington, Dalembert, Calderon and two picks, one of which, IIRC, ended up being Early.
For a team with so few assets when he walked in the door, botching the Noah, Rose, Chandler situations, plus not trading Melo immediately, before the NTC and when he would have had the most trade value in terms of return, are all back breaking moves. The Jazz drafting Rudy Gobert with a 2nd round pick is a sign of good work. The Warriors finding guys like Monta Ellis and Gilbert Arenas in the 2nd round is good work. The Hawks getting Kent Bazemore for a 2 year/4 million deal when he was stuck behind a deep Warriors team is good work. Robert Covington for peanuts when anyone could have signed him by the 76ers is good work.
Taking Zinger with the 4th overall pick, given upside and positional value and projected draft value, is just not screwing it all up while you are there.
Jackson has made a few good decisions, but with so little margin for error, he's made some pretty long term bad ones as well.
Could a young front office type from the Warriors or Spurs or Rockets done better? I honestly think so. Wow, not gutting all your teams future draft picks. I don't know if you should win an award or accolades for what is basically common sense about team building. There are probably a couple of homeless guys near Grand Central Station that could figure that out.
The bar was very very low. Wasn't hard for Jackson to do better than that benchmark.
Just because you are better than Zeke ( is that really that hard?) doesn't mean there is not a long long road from just OK to excellent. Jackson is not horrible, but the Knicks desperately needed excellent.
Jackson has severely hurt this team over the long haul. I'm not saying Zinger and Hernangomez won't pan out, I am saying let's not pretend there are other guys in the league who could have done just as good or better for far less cost and far less ego involved.
Jackson is not horrible. But that's faint praise. He's mediocre.
blkexec wrote:EnySpree wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:EnySpree wrote:The beautiful thing about everything is we don't have to trade Melo.... would we like to? Yes. Melo had the no trade clause. If he express that staying in NY is more important than anything, then he can stay. We have so many other options to move players and gain assets for the draft. The Knicks are rebuilding whether anybody likes it or not. I think Phil might be done trYing to get Melo help. The future is nowi dont mind keeping him but it makes sense for both sides to make a trade. Obviously we will never get close to what we gave up but even one good young player especially a point guard would be enticingYeah man it is what it is now. Melo might end up coming of the bench like Zach Randolph. Not a knock to his talent, but KP and Willy ate the 4 & 5 and we can't be playing games trying to accommodate Melo at the 4.
Melos ego is larger than Phil's. As long as melo is a knick, he will never agree to coming off the bench. Currently he has the franchise and fans on lock down. That's why only 3 nba players have a NTC.
Whenever you top two players are ball dominant offensively, it's like playing basketball in quicksand. Eventually u stop moving and become a spectator like the rest of us. I think Rose would be better off as a six man on the team. That way he can come into the game and go nut, with passing as his 3rd or 4th option.
Melo coming off the bench is one of the dumbest things i've ever heard.
blkexec wrote:EnySpree wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:EnySpree wrote:The beautiful thing about everything is we don't have to trade Melo.... would we like to? Yes. Melo had the no trade clause. If he express that staying in NY is more important than anything, then he can stay. We have so many other options to move players and gain assets for the draft. The Knicks are rebuilding whether anybody likes it or not. I think Phil might be done trYing to get Melo help. The future is nowi dont mind keeping him but it makes sense for both sides to make a trade. Obviously we will never get close to what we gave up but even one good young player especially a point guard would be enticingYeah man it is what it is now. Melo might end up coming of the bench like Zach Randolph. Not a knock to his talent, but KP and Willy ate the 4 & 5 and we can't be playing games trying to accommodate Melo at the 4.
Melos ego is larger than Phil's. As long as melo is a knick, he will never agree to coming off the bench. Currently he has the franchise and fans on lock down. That's why only 3 nba players have a NTC.
Whenever you top two players are ball dominant offensively, it's like playing basketball in quicksand. Eventually u stop moving and become a spectator like the rest of us. I think Rose would be better off as a six man on the team. That way he can come into the game and go nut, with passing as his 3rd or 4th option.
Be5 doesn't have to agree though. Coach could bench him. What can he say? It's not like starting him is working? It's a team game. I want to get back to that. Phil does too
The thing with Jackson is that he's taking all the heat for this. Melo takes it on the court, but off the court, it's all on Jackson. That's part of why Dolan hired him. Dolan's stepped back, and Phil is in the forefront, almost as if he is the owner (when Phil isn't).
I'm very impressed with how Phil and his people can scout and get talent out of nowhere. KP was lottery talent, but drafting KP took some balls.In NY most wanted one of the more proven college players. Even that aside, you look at getting a Hernangomez in the second round.
We just need to keep drafting well. It's the best way to get longterm stability in this league. With the cap rising, having so many contenders and playoff teams who have capspace puts us at no real advantge to free agents as we're not very good.
With the way Melo has began to play recently, I see no positive in keeping him. He's not even looking to pass. All he does is look for an isolation opportunity. The defensive effort remains weak. Team has been playing better and more cohesive without him. Real shame, because Melo has the talent to be a great point forward. Last year he showed it. All he has to do is look for open teammates ahead of his shot. He isn't. He is thinking about his shot and move every time. It's been evident that he no longer fits this team or the plan.