Knicks · GameThread: Lakers in town for the 7pm game, watch on TNT (page 13)

nyknickzingis wrote:One knock on Hornachek, he's been really stubborn with the starters roles. Even Breen suggested that with the constant complaints that the team is low on energy, stagnant, not moving quick enough on D, why not play smaller and quicker? Why not give KP at 5, Melo at 4, Holiday at 3, Rose at 2 and BJ at 1 a try for a few games? What's the worst thing that can happen there? We lose? I just don't get his stubborness when it comes to the starters.

Anyway I did like how they played in the 4th and tend to play in general with the 2nd unit and KP. That's our best bet moving forward. Find players that like to play at a high pace, unselfish, can shoot and defend. Easier said than done, but we should abandon the "lets trade for another team's franchise player who is on his way down" model for good. It's been our model for too long. This Melo/Rose disaster pairing should cement that.

Agreed. If players are t getting your message put them on the bench so they can watch the other players who are getting it. Full accountability. Worst case coach is wrong and the players who are playing poorly actually need the rest. Best case they respond

Great player hate to lose. All players hate to sit

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Don't worry this is all gonna change soon. Phil knows he has to make the move to this being about KP and the future.

This will literally be the third tear down rebuild in like 3.5 years under Phil. I wonder if Dolan is starting to lose patience. He was at the game tonight, don't know if he stayed for those "METTA METTA METTA" chants... but if he did, there's a good bet he didn't like them.

This is the kind of game that gets a coach or gm fired.

I mean, I don't want to harp on this - but Hornacek does not seem like a very good coach. He's in a horrible position, put there by Phil, but man this looks like a complete mess. The team is in shambles and has no plan on offense or defense.

It's the players!!! More than anything it's PLAYERS FIRST and then the coach. It's not like there's some secret defense that none of the Knicks coaches know about. At a certain point you have to fill your team with 2 way players that play TEAM BALL if you want to win.

Maybe it's the players but. Maybe it is the president but who usually takes the fall?

Dolan has to have spoken to Phil who I'm sure has told him the path forward is to rebuild around KP. I don't think Dolan is going to panic. He gave Glen Sather AMPLE time to rebuild the Rangers and I expect he'll be patient with Phil knowing how popular KP is and having a chance to add more young talent.

Hopefully. Do you think Jeff's job is secure? I loved the hire but this has been a huge let down.

I think you have to give Jeff a chance to work with a young group of talent that will play HARD and listen. The young guys do that and I suspect things will look much different in terms of effort and hustle. Even if they still lose it won't be as lethargic.

When Phil was a coach he sometimes let the players play through rough patch so they could figure it out themselves i.e. Not hyper w time outs etc

Maybe that's what he's doing w Jeff

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Don't worry this is all gonna change soon. Phil knows he has to make the move to this being about KP and the future.

This will literally be the third tear down rebuild in like 3.5 years under Phil. I wonder if Dolan is starting to lose patience. He was at the game tonight, don't know if he stayed for those "METTA METTA METTA" chants... but if he did, there's a good bet he didn't like them.

This is the kind of game that gets a coach or gm fired.

I mean, I don't want to harp on this - but Hornacek does not seem like a very good coach. He's in a horrible position, put there by Phil, but man this looks like a complete mess. The team is in shambles and has no plan on offense or defense.

It's the players!!! More than anything it's PLAYERS FIRST and then the coach. It's not like there's some secret defense that none of the Knicks coaches know about. At a certain point you have to fill your team with 2 way players that play TEAM BALL if you want to win.

Maybe it's the players but. Maybe it is the president but who usually takes the fall?

Dolan has to have spoken to Phil who I'm sure has told him the path forward is to rebuild around KP. I don't think Dolan is going to panic. He gave Glen Sather AMPLE time to rebuild the Rangers and I expect he'll be patient with Phil knowing how popular KP is and having a chance to add more young talent.

Hopefully. Do you think Jeff's job is secure? I loved the hire but this has been a huge let down.

I think you have to give Jeff a chance to work with a young group of talent that will play HARD and listen. The young guys do that and I suspect things will look much different in terms of effort and hustle. Even if they still lose it won't be as lethargic.

Yeah but something happened. The team looked a lot better early on. Hiring a guy that likes to play two point guards at once and filling the roster with 5 centers doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't think it is as simple as getting young guys in. There is a disconnect someplace.

I would love to hear an honest, off the record account from Jeff about what he thinks of this season...

Exactly! I suspect he would say the highest paid players were the biggest disappointments and the young guys have a bright future

Of rose Melo and Noah who is playing up to their contract?

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

I love the dumbasses who can't get over the hate they have for a player, long enough to open their eyes and see the real issues. Like 121 points given up!!. Melo is clearly not playing like he did last year. However, he has no one that cuts to basket, like Rolo did, that can actually score around basket. Nor does he have PG that will keep the ball moving or can make an outside shot, Was at game and Melo was not the problem. Unless your blinded. KP looked like a high school kid who just got called up. Akward as hell. And if you think he will be able to create his own shot.. your dreaming. Rose was disconnected and can not help a team in any other way but layups around the basket. I was screaming for him to, at least once, use his penetration to set someone else up. Without jumping in the air and causing a turnover that is. KP is being played much harder by defenders and he freezes. Once he gets ball he just looks for outside shot, realizes he cant drive and then passes back to PG on top. Never looks to pass to a cutter or dribble to pass to a shooter. But the true true dumbasses ignore the fact the co alpha male has fouled out of more games than any other Knick, is leading NBA in pump fake fouls and was absent, once again, in first half. Not to mention, is doing disappearing act, once again, this year afyer good start. But thats no big deal, Melo should be able to lead with solid NBA talent like KO, Willy, Kuz and Holiday. And the dysfunctional black hole of Rose. Yeah real dumbasses. We should probably get Lin back on the team to make things better. Lmao. Maybe people are so upset because they are realizing that their hate for Melo is not going to change the fact this team, built by Zen master, and to be lead by our Unicorn, is not and will not be very good. Sure it's fun to watch underdog over achievers play for short periods of time and do well. But these jackals won't put up with the soft spot they have for their favorite hopeful, if the team is getting their asses kicked by 20.

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

The biggest problem for the Knicks is net negative players. While some can fill it up on the offense other don't hold water on the defense. Everyone loves to play the offensive side but nobody wants to do the dirty work on the defensive side.

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Vmart wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

The biggest problem for the Knicks is net negative players. While some can fill it up on the offense other don't hold water on the defense. Everyone loves to play the offensive side but nobody wants to do the dirty work on the defensive side.

Agreed. Defense is our biggest problem. Which is the thing that takes the longest time to excel at, as a unit. Hard to do with limited continuity on the roster. But your right, Melo's, is clearly not able to defend at 3. However, he has a bit more luck with 4's and effort level is still there for the most part. KP is not able to defend a stretch 4 or strong 5. Rose lets everyone go by hoping for help and Jennings plays guys too high and allows them to drive. Kuz, KO, Willy need work. Think right now, Holiday may be our best defender.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

No. Just no. Melo is fucking awful on defense and he rarely tries.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

Its not even about assigning blame, something I dont do or find productive. The questions are simple... is Melo holding us back? Do we have a future with Melo as a centerpiece? What is best for the future of the team? Look at Melo's #s, starting with his WS/48 and plenty of others.. this is not going in a positive direction

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

No. Just no. Melo is fucking awful on defense and he rarely tries.

Fucking awful No way. Thought we are talking effort right? Will agree if you show me proof of Mondays game where he just didnt try. Again lapses, yes. Enough to say no other Knick is as guilty of lapses than him? No way. KP leaves his guy how many times a game? Gets caught up in air how many times a game? Kuz, KO? What was KO +/- in limited time? COme on. Your suppose to be open minded.

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

No. Just no. Melo is fucking awful on defense and he rarely tries.

Fucking awful No way. Thought we are talking effort right? Will agree if you show me proof of Mondays game where he just didnt try. Again lapses, yes. Enough to say no other Knick is as guilty of lapses than him? No way. KP leaves his guy how many times a game? Gets caught up in air how many times a game? Kuz, KO? What was KO +/- in limited time? COme on. Your suppose to be open minded.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:I love the dumb a**es who equate Melo getting shots/points with Melo playing good.

Post game were careful as always but clearly pointing the finger in Melo direction.

Trait wig even had to jump in and interrupt Wally kissing Melos but and saying "but Wally - he is clearly not playing like he was early last season - not doing any of the little things".

The Knicks for some god forsaken reason came out force feeding the ball to Melo and after jacking up about 5 of the first 7 shots of the game Melo wasn't even running back on D.

Basically the team is collectively sitting in that locker room wondering why are we running things thru this ball -hog and the defense you saw is what you get when the team is falling apart.

Way to lead Melo -- you are the King of empty stats and meaningless points.

+100000000000

Fair question. Do you think it's Melo's fault that he is and has been a post up player? Or do you think it's the fault of fans/GM to expect a post up player to become a speed offense player? Would you make Curry a post up player and tell him not to shoot a quick three?

And do you really think offense is our biggest problem?

I think that player leadership is a problem. I think defense is the problem. Melo and Rose are by far the biggest culprits of both.

Melo is not DadMelo this year, and his post up offense is nice when he is on but more often than not that exact type of offense stifles the entire team.

Melo BARELY tries on defense (same with Rose) and that is contagious from your team leaders.

We cant just keep saying things because its what people say. Fact is Melo is definatley trying on defense. Has been for last few years. Just not the Denver Melo anymore. Just go to a game and you will be surprised. Does he have lapses at times, yes. But is his effort there, i think so.

As for DadMelo... when was the last time you saw KP, KO or Noah back their defender under basket for a good position? Rolo had about 5 or 6 a game in which it was easy for Melo or anyone else to pass him the ball for a nice quick score. When did you see AA not take the shot when Melo passed it to him on a double team? Lee? Including a game winner.

As for Melo being the problem on Defense. If what you say was true, then would it not make sense that our defense would improve with Melo on the floor. In last nights game, think Melo went out down 9 or 10 after 1. When he cam back in they were down 16 or 17 and had given up uncontested layups. And do you think that playing him out of position is also on coaches. As he does not defend well at 3. But I get it, blame the high profile player. Its just frustrating as a guy that played the game to have fans ignore the true talent level of other players. The fact is, Melo has a special talent, even at this age, and other guys on the squad are just not near a high NBA level. Which you need nowadays to compete. Look at LBJ. Even with Love and Erving, he knows he needs more. Dont see how Knick fans can ignore the players we have had. Can give you a long list of players in the last three years that people have hyped up to be really good but have gone on to be bench players or D league players on other teams.

how can you say Melo tries on defense and say you watch this team this year? Same with Rose... I have been one of Melo's biggest supporters here and he has simply stopped giving effort there. The only time he tries at all is during the 2 minute drill.

Its not even about assigning blame, something I dont do or find productive. The questions are simple... is Melo holding us back? Do we have a future with Melo as a centerpiece? What is best for the future of the team? Look at Melo's #s, starting with his WS/48 and plenty of others.. this is not going in a positive direction

Amn I calling Melo a defensive jugernaut? No I am saying why all the bitching about one guy without mention of any other player including the Unicorn and the level of actual NBA talent on the team and ofcourse illustrious GM? Nothing less or more. Just short sighted to blame one guy for 121 defensive effort. It is a 9 man game right? Its just too easy by the whinning cry babies on here. They have a losing team so they have to go after the easiest target. Typical fans that probably have had as much basketball experience as their wives.

Is he the center piece? No. Can he be a integral part of a team? Yes. Is he the best we have? Absolutely! Are things going to get better when he is traded? You will see. If the second quarter of last night game is an indication then it sure as hell will not. Just a bunch of over achievers getting their asses kicked every game. WIth each one having a good game every once in a while. Look at how people talk about Kuz or Willy or KO when they have one good game. Ignoring the previous games or even years(KO case) of lack of production. Its what fans do. Over hype their pipe dreams and blame a guy who is good for not being LBJ.

The best ratings for Melo lineups defensively are

Noah-Anthony-Thomas-Lee-Rose 1.01
Noah-Anthony-Kuz-lee-Rose .96

The current starting 5 with Melo at 3 is one of our worst. 1.15
Last nights starting 5 with OQuinn at 5 instead of Noah is even worse at 1.25

Few things I've come to terms with.

Melo is a 4. At 3 he is forcing post ups on smaller guys isolating too much and defensively he's slow as hell.
Noah's value as a defender may be underrated.

Problem - KP is a 4. Maybe KP can close at 5 but he's most comfortable at 4.

So ask yourself Melo fans. Are you Knick fans or Melo first fans? To me the choice is simple. Move Melo to 4 or trade him. Since KP is not ready to be a 5, you just have to trade Melo. No other choice.

It's not even effort.
Just match up wise Melo at 3 doesn't work for us against most teams. But guess what? Guess who wanted Melo at 4 for years? MDA. Guess who hated that? Melo. Melo doesn't want to do what's best for the team. Best for the team is Melo play 4 and play a Dad Melo role. What does Melo like to do? Play 3 and shoot first. Yet people still support the guy.

nyknickzingis wrote:Anthony at 3 is a horrible defender. There is statistical proof.

The best ratings for Melo lineups defensively are

Noah-Anthony-Thomas-Lee-Rose 1.01
Noah-Anthony-Kuz-lee-Rose .96

The current starting 5 with Melo at 3 is one of our worst. 1.15
Last nights starting 5 with OQuinn at 5 instead of Noah is even worse at 1.25

Few things I've come to terms with.

Melo is a 4. At 3 he is forcing post ups on smaller guys isolating too much and defensively he's slow as hell.
Noah's value as a defender may be underrated.

Problem - KP is a 4. Maybe KP can close at 5 but he's most comfortable at 4.

So ask yourself Melo fans. Are you Knick fans or Melo first fans? To me the choice is simple. Move Melo to 4 or trade him. Since KP is not ready to be a 5, you just have to trade Melo. No other choice.

It's not even effort.
Just match up wise Melo at 3 doesn't work for us against most teams. But guess what? Guess who wanted Melo at 4 for years? MDA. Guess who hated that? Melo. Melo doesn't want to do what's best for the team. Best for the team is Melo play 4 and play a Dad Melo role. What does Melo like to do? Play 3 and shoot first. Yet people still support the guy.

Agreed. So what do you think we can get for KP?
Here is the thing, KP still can't guard a stretch 4, or 5 and definately not a 3, which btw, your good 4' can do. As the the 3 and 4 should be interchangeable on defense. But your right, the young Unicorn is not going anywhere. And Melo is better suited at 4. Question is, when will Melo decide it's enough? Tired of while situation and hope he chooses to go elsewhere. Then watch out, KP will have a target on his chest. And many will be commenting the whole way through.

Melo or Rose are elite at nothing defensively. KP has all the tools to be a good defender and already is a great rim protector. Give him 2 more years and get a better defensive coaching staff.

I mean compare him to Dirk defensively or Bargnani. Come on he's light years better at the same age.

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

crzymdups wrote:KP getting much better looks now. Why oh why don't they do this earlier in the game?

One thing that I've never got about Melo - he uses his bullets early in the game. You watch a guy like Chris Paul or Lebron and they use the first three quarters to set up their teammates and then they score a lot in the 4th quarter if needed.

Anyway.

Because those guys play to win, Melo plays to "get his"

I think he wants to win, I just don't think he gets it.

edit: We also have seen how much better he plays with a smart PG like Billups or Kidd.

Wanting to win and not getting it are not compatible. He has had an entire career worth of coaches telling him what to do. He definitely knows what he needs to change, he is too fukking selfish to even bother trying.

I don't really buy that. I just think that people expect him to be able to be a master playmaker like Lebron and it's really not in his skillset. Because of their draft history, he'll always be compared to Lebron, but that's not him. Melo should've always been the leading scorer on a team where ANOTHER guy had the ball in his hands the whole time. Like if he'd played his whole career with Billups or Kidd or CP3. That's what Melo needed. He only got it a few years of his career.

Whatever - they've hit the point of no return now. Melo needs to go. It's the best for all parties.

I guess I don't buy that either. People have had fairly reasonable expectations of him. He has never once in his career shown the will or desire to play hard consistently on both sides of the ball and put the team ahead of his own needs. If he had done those two simple things about 95% of his detractors would see him differently. No one realistically expects him to be Lebron, he just isn't even close to being that good.

Interesting that the new article suggests both that he doesn't really care about winning to the extent a Kobe or a Jordan did and that Phil at least did want to build him up along those lines. It just goes to show that talent alone doesn't make winners it makes sore losers unless it comes equipped with the determination to win. Melo has put himself ahead of everything else his entire career and it's finally catching up to him. That is the true definition of selfishness. Now I am not saying he cannot be unselfish outside of basketball or he had not done charitable things but that isn't what we are discussing here. He had shown single-minded selfishness in everything basketball.

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:KP's post game is very revealing

He mentions not feeling involved for the first 3 quarters. Not in the flow.

Also mentions no trust on either end of the floor. Too much individual play.

I interpret this as Melo and Rose are killing us.

Why would you hear and interpret it any differently..KP started 0-6..

KP needs to be in rhythm and the way Rose plays doesn't create anything for him. Then you have Melo who can get his regardless of the offense and doesn't need help. KP is not that way. Especially this early in his career. KP needs a better flow to the offense which doesn't happen the way it should with Rose at the point.

This roster has to change. They took a shot at it but the parts don't work with Rose and Melo as the top dogs. This team needs a legit PG to get the best out of these players. Rose had a chance to be that PG but he simply doesn't try to be a ball distributor and play maker.

I really don't want to knock KP..You force me to when you don't hold him accountable..You blame others for what KP isn't doing...Early in the game, Melo and KP running a pick and roll at the top of the key..KP doesn't roll to create a passing lane to get the ball..Melo didn't pass..I saw the same play with Willy and Melo, Willy got the ball immeadistely..KP has lots of work to do but all you guys blame others for his shortcomings..

Say what you want about KP, but I can almost guarantee that nearly every front office exec in the league is blaming KP's struggles solely on the knicks and would be confident that KP would thrive in another system that doesn't focus on heavy isolation and a slowdown offense that tries to regulate KP to a Ryan Anderson type role. KP is being misused and his confidence is being badly effected on both ends becauae he's a young player who is still trying to figure out his nba role. We need to do right by him or we will hinder his development and further be the laughingstock of the league.

KP came into the season saying he has worked on and improved his three point shooting..He also said he worked on his handle..So blame the organization..

KP is not to blame for Rose not being a distributor and leader or Melo doing more ISO this year than being DadMelo! The vets are supposed to lead the way. Rose n Melo have a tall target out there and still haven't figured out how to take advantage of that every game. They have the ball THE MOST.

The can score the ball better than KP, that's why they have it the MOST...They are not being paid millions to hold KP's hand..

Excuse me but the object is to play TEAM BALL. What does it matter if Melo can score if no one else can get in rhythm or any flow cuz the ball isn't moving as it should.

And I don't mean any old touch but rather meaningful ball and player movement that leads to good shots in rhythm and on time!!! KP's not always getting the ball at the right time in the right spots. Not with Rose and Melo. It's messed up his game.

0-6...

Like I said not in rhythm or the right spots!!! Perhaps you can at least try to accept that it does make a difference when and how you get the ball. Melo and Rose are ISO players that can just make something out of nothing but not everyone is good with that.

It's gonna make a huge difference when KP has a PG that knows how to set him up and teammates that move the ball. KP looked better later with BJ and the kids. IMO what is wrong with KP is not enough of a flow and pace to the game.

My guess is his head is in space...He is afraid when Melo leaves it will be all on his shoulders and he can't handle it..He knows he isn't ready to take over..The team is shook because they are saying if this can happen to Melo, what about me...Nice culture change...

I think he doesn't like Rose.

It could be!!! Rose plays ALOOF and DISCONNECTED from everyone. As I've said many times where are all the highlights of Rose to KP? They should have at least some chemistry by now! Some plays that you can see being their Signature play like Stockton and Malone. Tell me that CP3 or Lebron wouldn't have KP at All Star level by now if they played with KP!!!

And how will they do that? Feed him Wheaties and iron pills??

Nah! You know CP3 would help KP greatly as would Lebron. Those 2 are leaders that move the ball and look to make players BETTER!!! KP has needed that and it's obvious he's not getting that from Rose or Melo. KP needs confidence and consistency as he develops!!! The kid is 21 and you're ragging on him like he's been a bum! KP started off just fine but the chemistry never developed and that's on Rose n Melo!!!

Top leadership players like CP3 and Lebron would not have let KP average above 30 minute of playing-time per game in their rotation during KP rookie season nor second-season in the NBA.
Plus Fisher/Rambis/Horn has not worked on one or two consistent scoring moves for KP to develop down to a science nor did any of the coaches tutor KP on defending the paint area switches with Lopez or Noah ..
KP has talent and potential that the Knicks are not developing right .. There were no team-ball in Fisher/Rambis season n there's no team-ball in Jeff Horn system.