Knicks · I have the solution!! (page 2)

KP isn't our saviour.
Neither is Melo.
Melo is on decline.
KP on the way up.
Team has to rebuild and giving Melo more control of the team is the last way to achieve that.

KP can play great team defense if the team around him is quick and athletic and they all get on the same page. KP is one of the best rim protectors in the league. He struggles at times defensively but far from a defensive problem that you have to quit on.

There's not a single coach in the league that would bench KP on this current Knicks squad. Some may move him to 5, others may make some other adjustments to their defensive schemes.

But benching a player that is 21 giving a team 19/7/2 and on his pace to set the all time record for 3 pointers and blocks in a single season is ridiculous.

Melo certainly isn't worth that - unless one is a Melo fan first.

I've never said KP will carry the team to greatness. But I know it's a fact Melo never will be part of a contending Knick team. At least KP can be if he develops the right way. How good was Dirk defensively in his second season? Would benching Dirk have done Dallas good in the long run? Come on get outta here with this BS

You lost respect from any level headed discussion on KP when you said the Knicks would be better off having drafted Mudiay. The same Mudiay Denver is shopping less than 2 years into his career and was one of the worst shooters in the league last year.

What the Melo crowd hates about KP is his presence makes Phil Jacksons decision to trade Melo easier. Well that's too bad. If Melo were a great player he would have made the playoffs by now. He isn't good enough to carry the team yet wants the plays, salary, and role that is assigned to a player that should carry the team. Well most of us have seen enough. Time to move on. Willy, KP are two great first steps. Got to go get a 3, 2 and 1 that can play with them longterm. Have some vets already that are goood for bench roles in BJ, Lee, Holiday, OQuinn, Noah, Thomas.

BRIGGS wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:Knicks fans are going to be crushed when they realize Hernangomez and Kuz are nothing but bench role player and Baker will be out of the league in two years.

Willy G will be a quality 20-25 min back ip 4-5. I'm inclined to agree on the 24 year old Baker. Nate wolters was way better and is not playing nba basketball now. Kuz is ok. Something has gotten to him and he's no rookie anyway

I agree with this but if you read around this site, members here believe he can start next to KP. At this point, I honestly do even think KP should be starting.

Kuzminskas,I am really a fan of his. I'm HOPING that, in his case, its just a matter of getting used to the speed and play of the NBA.

Kuz can be a good backup. He has improved his defence. Not a starter though.
Willy I think can be a 28 minutes type of starter.

nyknickzingis wrote:KP isn't our saviour.
Neither is Melo.
Melo is on decline.
KP on the way up.
Team has to rebuild and giving Melo more contro.

KP can play great team defense if the team around him is quick and athletic and they all get on the same page. KP is one of the best rim protectors in the league. He struggles at times defensively but far from a defensive problem that you have to quit on.

There's not a single coach in the league that would bench KP on this current Knicks squad. Some may move him to 5, others may make some other adjustments to their defensive schemes.

But benching a player that is 21 giving a team 19/7/2 and on his pace to set the all time record for 3 pointers and blocks in a single season is ridiculous.

Melo certainly isn't worth that - unless one is a Melo fan first.

I've never said KP will carry the team to greatness. But I know it's a fact Melo never will be part of a contending Knick team. At least KP can be if he develops the right way. How good was Dirk defensively in his second season? Would benching Dirk have done Dallas good in the long run? Come on get outta here with this BS

You lost respect from any level headed discussion on KP when you said the Knicks would be better off having drafted Mudiay. The same Mudiay Denver is shopping less than 2 years into his career and was one of the worst shooters in the league last year.

What the Melo crowd hates about KP is his presence makes Phil Jacksons decision to trade Melo easier. Well that's too bad. If Melo were a great player he would have made the playoffs by now. He isn't good enough to carry the team yet wants the plays, salary, and role that is assigned to a player that should carry the team. Well most of us have seen enough. Time to move on. Willy, KP are two great first steps. Got to go get a 3, 2 and 1 that can play with them longterm. Have some vets already that are goood for bench roles in BJ, Lee, Holiday, OQuinn, Noah, Thomas.

You say your all about the youth movement and Knicks but it sometimes seems ur all about protecting your vision of KP being the answer. As my thread on what can be done suggested, moving KP to second unit(not benching him the whole game as you make it sound) with Willy gives you what you want. A chance for KP to be the main guy. And as mentioned, with minutes at 5, it won't affect his playing time. Although at the 5, he will quickly get into foul trouble and get pushed around. And just to be clear, the idea that KP is Dirk half way through his second year is some higher bullshit. And If we are going compare the two situations, Dirk was not competing to play the same position as a hall of Famer when he came up with the Mavs. Know it's hard for you to realize that or hear it. But do you think any team in NBA history would have benched their hall of fame guy for a second year player? Specially when the hall of famer is still outplaying him? No way.

Additionally, waiving Noah and Rose will do a lot more for the youth movement than just trading Melo. And again, no one gets it. I am not defending Melo as a perfect player. Just don't understand how everyone is missing what I see to be the bigger problems. Phil, Noah and Rose. Not to mention, that those are problems that don't have a NTC.

As for Mudiay, mentioned him as a better pick as it filled an obvious void. Which is sometimes more important than a better player. Which KP clearly is. And as we have seen, as you mentioned, having two good players out of position does not equate to wins.

Youth movement is something like

Willy 22
KP 21
Kuz 27
Holiday 27
Jennings or Rose (27/28)

Baker is not starting quality
I don't think Kuz is either.
Holiday maybe but he would need to be around a few stars.

So my plan is youth movement but it can't happen until Melo is traded and our 2017 draft picks are made. We have three picks coming. One in the lottery.

But my plan for post Melo trade:

Willy gets 26 min @ 5 KP gets 10 min @ 5 Noah 12 min
KP gets 20 min @ 4 Kuz and Lance rest
Athletic 2-way starting 3 backed up by Holiday
Athletic 2-way starting 2 backed up Lee
Rose or BJ for 30 min @ 1 backed up by a young project point guard draft pick

We can achieve this easily through trading Melo and drafting

As for Melo not waiving his NTC. Then status quo. Keep Melo at 3. Reduce his minutes. Start Willy and KP. Look for an athletic 2-way backcourt. Same plan as above only you do everything in your power to get an athletic defensive backcourt. Melo has a player option in 2018 I think. He will opt out for more guaranteed money. Till then add two lottery picks (2017 and 2018) to KP, Willy. Young players develop a little slower with Melo but so long as the team adds young talent that's the key.

nyknickzingis wrote:Youth movement is something like

Willy 22
KP 21
Kuz 27
Holiday 27
Jennings or Rose (27/28)

Baker is not starting quality
I don't think Kuz is either.
Holiday maybe but he would need to be around a few stars.

So my plan is youth movement but it can't happen until Melo is traded and our 2017 draft picks are made. We have three picks coming. One in the lottery.

But my plan for post Melo trade:

Willy gets 26 min @ 5 KP gets 10 min @ 5 Noah 12 min
KP gets 20 min @ 4 Kuz and Lance rest
Athletic 2-way starting 3 backed up by Holiday
Athletic 2-way starting 2 backed up Lee
Rose or BJ for 30 min @ 1 backed up by a young project point guard draft pick

We can achieve this easily through trading Melo and drafting

As for Melo not waiving his NTC. Then status quo. Keep Melo at 3. Reduce his minutes. Start Willy and KP. Look for an athletic 2-way backcourt. Same plan as above only you do everything in your power to get an athletic defensive backcourt. Melo has a player option in 2018 I think. He will opt out for more guaranteed money. Till then add two lottery picks (2017 and 2018) to KP, Willy. Young players develop a little slower with Melo but so long as the team adds young talent that's the key.

Noah doing 12 min per game and getting 17M? Won't happen.
KP can't play 5 yet. Proved it last night. Got outplayed and could not cover PnR.
Your starting line up is a joke as it would mean we kept Rose and Noah. But I know you prefer anything over keeping our best player with the NTC.
Willy, KP, Kuz, Holiday and Jennings would be the weakest staring limeup in the league. Don't see how you think that would help KP.
Agree that Baker is not a starting PG..but he has a higher IQ than Jennings or Rose. Would platoon Jennings and Baker if Jennings resigns on the cheap.

HofstraBBall wrote:Waive Rose and Noah if you cant trade them for any kind of draft picks. Rose may have better demand for team looking for penetrator.

Give young guys a real chance to play. Give Melo a chance to play his only position at 4. Give KP a chance to be main focus with second unit.

If it doesnt work, After year is over, Trade Melo for more draft picks. Trade KO for draft picks. Trade LT for draft picks. Either way we win. If we suck, higher picks, young guys get a chance, KP develops as main offense threat.

If this doesnt work I will pay everyone on here a crisp $1 bill. And by everyone I mean those that agree with me. Lmao.

Start the know it all crap fest.

Stretching Noah in Year 1 of a four year deal is insane.

The formula, IIRC, is 2X+1, that means the remaining 54 million of his contract and the last three years turn into SEVEN YEARS of cap hits of 7.7-7.8 million a season. Even with the cap going up, that's paying a guy TO NOT PLAY FOR YOU. You are paying him to play for someone else. Yes, you are opening up 10 million more for those three years, but you are chewing up back end cap space in future years when those future years, that space could be critical. Seven years is basically forever in sports timelines.

Waiving Noah is insane. Yes, he's the worst overall large contract in the NBA right now, but his fourth year, he might be useful as an expiring deal for a salary match ( again, several years from now, it's unclear what the market landscape would be) Even if he can only give you 10 good minutes a night, that's still 10 good minutes you are not getting and paying for it for SEVEN YEARS to not get it.

That you'd even consider trading Noah as some kind of even shot in the dark option outside of his 4th year, is pretty much insane. That you'd pay his cap hit for SEVEN YEARS to give those 10 minutes for someone else is even more insane.

What you seem to be implying is Melo and KP can't play together. So what are the Knicks going to do? Give each of them 24 minutes a night on different units?

If you trade Melo in the offseason, it's getting 5 cents on the dollar instead of 15 cents on the dollar now and 10 cents on the dollar at the deadline.

Here's a solution,

A) Hire a young up and coming GM candidate and let him actually run the team. This means firing Phil Jackson.

B) Trade Melo for whatever you can get for him, which will likely include at least one bad contract at length.

C) Trade everyone, including Zinger to move Noah's contract off the books if possible. The Noah and Lee moves and the likely bad contract coming in the Melo trade is going to kill the kids window of development.

D) Tank and keep tanking and just start over.

The best trade asset is Zinger. And he is the only hope ( and even then, a slim one) to move Noah's bad contract off the roster and maybe get some future assets.

No one wants to hear it, but the Knicks have to start over from rock bottom, yet again. What the last three years have been are an example that you can't shortcut the rebuilding process.

There is, IMHO, no other practical option but to start over from scratch.

Willy and KP played well again today started together
Good play against a contender

KPs defense outstanding

He's a 4
Willy is our 5

Build the team that way - period.

nyknickzingis wrote:Willy and KP played well again today started together
Good play against a contender

KPs defense outstanding

He's a 4
Willy is our 5

Build the team that way - period.

Never a period with you regarding KP. Bro. We get it. You love KP and think he will be a Hall of Famer. For the 30th time, Got it. Your constant heart attack when someone suggests KP has a weakness kinda proves that's all you really care about. Funny you didn't mention Melo hitting all the big shots down the stretch. KP shot 40%. But absolutely played energy defense. Willy also had another great game. But I've said several times I like Willy's game. And I think you have an issue understanding what is said about KP. He has trouble with stretch 4's. And trouble with strong offensive 5's. Who exactly was the Spurs stretch 4 that he was guarding? Or the All start Center he was guarding? And I know you like to make every thread about how great KP is. But this was about how KP and Melo are out of position and how Noah and Rose are bigger problems. But I know you will continue to pigeon hole people into having to argue with you on how great KP is.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Willy and KP played well again today started together
Good play against a contender

KPs defense outstanding

He's a 4
Willy is our 5

Build the team that way - period.

Never a period with you regarding KP. Bro. We get it. You love KP and think he will be a Hall of Famer. For the 30th time, Got it. Your constant heart attack when someone suggests KP has a weakness kinda proves that's all you really care about. Funny you didn't mention Melo hitting all the big shots down the stretch. KP shot 40%. But absolutely played energy defense. Willy also had another great game. But I've said several times I like Willy's game. And I think you have an issue understanding what is said about KP. He has trouble with stretch 4's. And trouble with strong offensive 5's. Who exactly was the Spurs stretch 4 that he was guarding? Or the All start Center he was guarding? And I know you like to make every thread about how great KP is. But this was about how KP and Melo are out of position and how Noah and Rose are bigger problems. But I know you will continue to pigeon hole people into having to argue with you on how great KP is.

Aldridge is both a star, a great offensive big, and a capable stretch 4/5. KP did an excellent job on him.

Knixkik wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Willy and KP played well again today started together
Good play against a contender

KPs defense outstanding

He's a 4
Willy is our 5

Build the team that way - period.

Never a period with you regarding KP. Bro. We get it. You love KP and think he will be a Hall of Famer. For the 30th time, Got it. Your constant heart attack when someone suggests KP has a weakness kinda proves that's all you really care about. Funny you didn't mention Melo hitting all the big shots down the stretch. KP shot 40%. But absolutely played energy defense. Willy also had another great game. But I've said several times I like Willy's game. And I think you have an issue understanding what is said about KP. He has trouble with stretch 4's. And trouble with strong offensive 5's. Who exactly was the Spurs stretch 4 that he was guarding? Or the All start Center he was guarding? And I know you like to make every thread about how great KP is. But this was about how KP and Melo are out of position and how Noah and Rose are bigger problems. But I know you will continue to pigeon hole people into having to argue with you on how great KP is.

Aldridge is both a star, a great offensive big, and a capable stretch 4/5. KP did an excellent job on him.

He gave up 8 points guarding Aldridge in 8 minutes in first quarter. And that was with AD missing a wide open 3 that KP left him open. Guarded Lee and Bertans whole 2nd. Did have a couple of good stops one on one against him in second half and like I said he had high energy and played well all around. But Spurs did not feed Aldridge much in second half. Maybe why they lost. But again, getting tired of trying to prove people wrong by putting KP down. Just don't like when it's not said the way it was. KP has showed all year his biggest challenge is covering good stretch 4's, specially the real good 3pt shooters, and solid post up bigs. Not a secret. But always follow it by saying he is still very young and talented.

TripleThreat wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Waive Rose and Noah if you cant trade them for any kind of draft picks. Rose may have better demand for team looking for penetrator.

Give young guys a real chance to play. Give Melo a chance to play his only position at 4. Give KP a chance to be main focus with second unit.

If it doesnt work, After year is over, Trade Melo for more draft picks. Trade KO for draft picks. Trade LT for draft picks. Either way we win. If we suck, higher picks, young guys get a chance, KP develops as main offense threat.

If this doesnt work I will pay everyone on here a crisp $1 bill. And by everyone I mean those that agree with me. Lmao.

Start the know it all crap fest.

Stretching Noah in Year 1 of a four year deal is insane.

The formula, IIRC, is 2X+1, that means the remaining 54 million of his contract and the last three years turn into SEVEN YEARS of cap hits of 7.7-7.8 million a season. Even with the cap going up, that's paying a guy TO NOT PLAY FOR YOU. You are paying him to play for someone else. Yes, you are opening up 10 million more for those three years, but you are chewing up back end cap space in future years when those future years, that space could be critical. Seven years is basically forever in sports timelines.

Waiving Noah is insane. Yes, he's the worst overall large contract in the NBA right now, but his fourth year, he might be useful as an expiring deal for a salary match ( again, several years from now, it's unclear what the market landscape would be) Even if he can only give you 10 good minutes a night, that's still 10 good minutes you are not getting and paying for it for SEVEN YEARS to not get it.

That you'd even consider trading Noah as some kind of even shot in the dark option outside of his 4th year, is pretty much insane. That you'd pay his cap hit for SEVEN YEARS to give those 10 minutes for someone else is even more insane.

What you seem to be implying is Melo and KP can't play together. So what are the Knicks going to do? Give each of them 24 minutes a night on different units?

If you trade Melo in the offseason, it's getting 5 cents on the dollar instead of 15 cents on the dollar now and 10 cents on the dollar at the deadline.

Here's a solution,

A) Hire a young up and coming GM candidate and let him actually run the team. This means firing Phil Jackson.

B) Trade Melo for whatever you can get for him, which will likely include at least one bad contract at length.

C) Trade everyone, including Zinger to move Noah's contract off the books if possible. The Noah and Lee moves and the likely bad contract coming in the Melo trade is going to kill the kids window of development.

D) Tank and keep tanking and just start over.

The best trade asset is Zinger. And he is the only hope ( and even then, a slim one) to move Noah's bad contract off the roster and maybe get some future assets.

No one wants to hear it, but the Knicks have to start over from rock bottom, yet again. What the last three years have been are an example that you can't shortcut the rebuilding process.

There is, IMHO, no other practical option but to start over from scratch.

A lot of great info. This goes with one of my biggest point for starting the thread, Noah will be a huge problem for next 3.5 years. That and that KP and Melo can't play the 4 and 3 defensively.

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Willy and KP played well again today started together
Good play against a contender

KPs defense outstanding

He's a 4
Willy is our 5

Build the team that way - period.

Never a period with you regarding KP. Bro. We get it. You love KP and think he will be a Hall of Famer. For the 30th time, Got it. Your constant heart attack when someone suggests KP has a weakness kinda proves that's all you really care about. Funny you didn't mention Melo hitting all the big shots down the stretch. KP shot 40%. But absolutely played energy defense. Willy also had another great game. But I've said several times I like Willy's game. And I think you have an issue understanding what is said about KP. He has trouble with stretch 4's. And trouble with strong offensive 5's. Who exactly was the Spurs stretch 4 that he was guarding? Or the All start Center he was guarding? And I know you like to make every thread about how great KP is. But this was about how KP and Melo are out of position and how Noah and Rose are bigger problems. But I know you will continue to pigeon hole people into having to argue with you on how great KP is.

Yeah, I care about KP's development because KP is the Knicks future. I care just the same about Willy's. I don't care about players who are making 20+ million a year like Rose and Melo who play D on occasion, who do not lead, and who will not be part of a winning team in NY. Do you enjoy 50 loss years every year? I don't. I wnat to build for the future.

KP was guarding one of the best 3's in the league in some of the switches yesterday, a tougher assignment than most stretch 4's. He did well yesterday, but it was also because our perimeter players were not allowing their man to get free easily. It all starts with perimeter D. If players do a good job on their man, the bigs are not out of position. KP's got weaknesses defensively but he is one of the best rim protectors in the league. He can be a huge asset defensively if the team had players that stayed with their man. KP could block shots and stay closer to the rim, instead of having to constantly switch onto smaller quicker players.

Just for evidence

Benching KP was one of the craziest ideas I've heard. I'm so happy Willy is finally starting. I don't think it makes any sense for the team to care about the current season's veterans outside of making sure they play within a team concept (Which to Melo's credit, he is doing since Phil's tweets).

I actually think Melo has been playing great on offense the last few games (after the Laker game). He does not come out looking for his shot. He slowly works himself into the game. He looks to pass often, especially in the 1st half. Late in games begins to be more aggressive with his shot. That's winning basketball. Melo has it in him, but the problem is for whatever reason he reverts. If he can stay like this the rest of the season, he will be an asset to the team and the young players like Willy and KP. Because for whatever the issues are on D, a Willy/KP/Melo front court when Melo moves the ball is fantastic. Melo draws attention, as does KP. They all can finish plays. Willy is good at finishing around the rim and in the paint. KP is great at catch and shoot or off some drives. Melo can do a little of everything - catch&shoot, post, drive. I really wish we had 2 extremely athletic, young defensive minded guaards to work with that front court. Rose/Lee can too easily outmatched and beaten by their man against quicker and athletic guard led teams. Puts everyone out of place within a few seconds and our D breaks down easily.

I'm shocked people still think KP is a 5 at this point in his career.

nyknickzingis wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Willy and KP played well again today started together
Good play against a contender

KPs defense outstanding

He's a 4
Willy is our 5

Build the team that way - period.

Never a period with you regarding KP. Bro. We get it. You love KP and think he will be a Hall of Famer. For the 30th time, Got it. Your constant heart attack when someone suggests KP has a weakness kinda proves that's all you really care about. Funny you didn't mention Melo hitting all the big shots down the stretch. KP shot 40%. But absolutely played energy defense. Willy also had another great game. But I've said several times I like Willy's game. And I think you have an issue understanding what is said about KP. He has trouble with stretch 4's. And trouble with strong offensive 5's. Who exactly was the Spurs stretch 4 that he was guarding? Or the All start Center he was guarding? And I know you like to make every thread about how great KP is. But this was about how KP and Melo are out of position and how Noah and Rose are bigger problems. But I know you will continue to pigeon hole people into having to argue with you on how great KP is.

Yeah, I care about KP's development because KP is the Knicks future. I care just the same about Willy's. I don't care about players who are making 20+ million a year like Rose and Melo who play D on occasion, who do not lead, and who will not be part of a winning team in NY. Do you enjoy 50 loss years every year? I don't. I wnat to build for the future.

KP was guarding one of the best 3's in the league in some of the switches yesterday, a tougher assignment than most stretch 4's. He did well yesterday, but it was also because our perimeter players were not allowing their man to get free easily. It all starts with perimeter D. If players do a good job on their man, the bigs are not out of position. KP's got weaknesses defensively but he is one of the best rim protectors in the league. He can be a huge asset defensively if the team had players that stayed with their man. KP could block shots and stay closer to the rim, instead of having to constantly switch onto smaller quicker players.

Just for evidence

Agree with most. Btw, Melo guarded Leonard quite a bit in second half.

My point has always been our best line up is with Melo at 4. Old school says you don't let a second year player push a HOF vet out. Specially when vet is still better than him.. Does not mean KP's future would be hurt by playing more with sexond unit. Reason why he comes out first in 1st quarters. So i cant be that crazy.

Would rather see Willy at 5 Melo at 4 and Holiday, Kuz or LT at 3. Willy is a true 5. Has always been. He was always the choice at 5, even with KP on roster in Spain. KP just not a 5. And you can't argue that KP has to stay with good shooting stretch 4's. He can't just leave them early and give up open 3's. You can't just use the excuse that someone else should rotate. Not an effective way to play defense. Our record has shown this to be true.

But don't think we need to go back and forth. You think KP should be the main guy and Melo is in his way. Understood. I think you don't push a HOF player to the side for a second year player that is not better yet. Specially if you cant trade the HOF. Think we can save a lot of redundant posts by agreeing to disagree. As I think Melo is going nowhere.