Knicks · Hornacek just earned my respect - stands up for Melo, calls Phil a "distraction" (page 2)
Knixkik wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:ramtour420 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Hornacek always defends melo and melo repays him by just playing the way he always has and ignoring Hornacek s plays and refuses to play any defense+1 let me add if I might, he also refuses to pass, to move without the ball, to fill up lanes in transition, and to own up to his shortcomings as a player. On the other hand tho he is really into his brand, fashion etc.
They Knicks have Rose and KP who are absolutely horrible defensive players. They are certainly bigger causes for the defense being bad then Melo. We can't possibly blame one guy for everything. Also the switch everything defensive philosophy is horrible and ineffective. I can't even think of a game where I was like wow...we wouldn't have given up 120 pts if Melo was a better weak side defender. That def cost us 35pts tonight. What a wild assertion.I will never understand this rep about KP. He's number 2 in the league at defensive FG% at the rim. That's the second best in the league. No ELITE rim protector is a bad defensive player. He is asked to defend perimeter players at 7'3, and not sure if that makes him a bad defender. Chris Paul isn't a bad defensive player because he can't defend post players. That's just me.
Listen, I agree that he defends well by the rim, but the reality is, he is playing the 4 and almost all the 4s (many 5s as well) in the league can stretch the floor, and he is getting absolutely torched on the perimeter. While he is good by the rim, much of the game is played on the perimeter now. The game is officiated to be played on the perimeter. A change in defensive philosophy and him working on it can help to mitigate it but we need to acknowledge what is happening on the floor.
Knixkik wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:ramtour420 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Hornacek always defends melo and melo repays him by just playing the way he always has and ignoring Hornacek s plays and refuses to play any defense+1 let me add if I might, he also refuses to pass, to move without the ball, to fill up lanes in transition, and to own up to his shortcomings as a player. On the other hand tho he is really into his brand, fashion etc.
They Knicks have Rose and KP who are absolutely horrible defensive players. They are certainly bigger causes for the defense being bad then Melo. We can't possibly blame one guy for everything. Also the switch everything defensive philosophy is horrible and ineffective. I can't even think of a game where I was like wow...we wouldn't have given up 120 pts if Melo was a better weak side defender. That def cost us 35pts tonight. What a wild assertion.I will never understand this rep about KP. He's number 2 in the league at defensive FG% at the rim. That's the second best in the league. No ELITE rim protector is a bad defensive player. He is asked to defend perimeter players at 7'3, and not sure if that makes him a bad defender. Chris Paul isn't a bad defensive player because he can't defend post players. That's just me.
How elite was KP under the rim last night when D.Jordan won the game for them under the basket??
arkrud wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:arkrud wrote:ESOMKnicks wrote:Hornacek is working hard on getting fired. It must be the culture of the Dolan-led organization, which takes composed and successful people and makes them look like whiny moronic losers. Would anyone maybe plonk four billion bucks to buy MSG out? Too bad it's been losing money in the last 12 months.On the other hand, the Rangers have been managed well over the years, under the same Mr. Dolan, so ho figure.
Rangers blow it out completely and did 5 years rebuild from 0.
They hire development coach and drafted very well.
Then they hire disciplinarian coach and established the culture of winning.
Now after 10 years they hire winning coach and are perennial contenders.
Knicks if they want to do same are not even at starting point.
They did get development coach and now Phil trying to speed up the blow up.
But it looks like we still have 2 more season to go before this happened... if we will stay the course.
Hopefully Mills and Huston will stick with the plan and Dolan will stay out of bbal moving forward.I think your giving Phil too much credit. Phil has an ego as big an anybody. He will not be here for the rebuild. Probably just looking for info to pain Melo as the sole reason this didn't work in his new book after we get done giving him all this money and he walks away.
I do not think Phil is relevant too much.
Knicks have to rebuild this way or another or they will continue to suck infinitely.
Phil is the end of the road... When he and Melo will be gone there will be nothing left.
So rebuild is inevitable.
So you are syaing the knicks have a better chance building through then draft then actually making good trades, and signing solid FA.
There's a problem with both tatics, you can get a high pick, it may turn out to be a bennett, or winslow, or jahil or just a overall project. You can trade for a solid player, a very good players, and he turns into a dud, like most of the players we currently have.
But none of it matters if the owner and president are on some BS
nixluva wrote:Phil is trying to set this team up for future success. He never intended to be here forever but he has seriously tried to preserve and add to our draft picks and find young talent. You have to look beyond what he did to pacify Melo. He has 3 Picks in this draft and has preserved cap space. All of this will only help the franchise going forward.
You gotta agree with this. Phil has done plenty of wrong with certain contracts and the way he's handling this Melo thing but i think with so much focus on the bad that he's done people are over looking a lot of the good things he's done for this teams future. This team is set up to have a good rebuild with the young players we already have and the draft picks he's kept and added for us. Obviously the bad stuff is what we hear about every single day from the media which we the fans start running with as well so it pretty drowns out any of the good thing we have to look forward to but in say 2 or 3 years this team will look totally different and with some right moves/draft picks there's a good chance that we're all singing a different tune in 3 years.
newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:Phil is trying to set this team up for future success. He never intended to be here forever but he has seriously tried to preserve and add to our draft picks and find young talent. You have to look beyond what he did to pacify Melo. He has 3 Picks in this draft and has preserved cap space. All of this will only help the franchise going forward.You gotta agree with this. Phil has done plenty of wrong with certain contracts and the way he's handling this Melo thing but i think with so much focus on the bad that he's done people are over looking a lot of the good things he's done for this teams future. This team is set up to have a good rebuild with the young players we already have and the draft picks he's kept and added for us. Obviously the bad stuff is what we hear about every single day from the media which we the fans start running with as well so it pretty drowns out any of the good thing we have to look forward to but in say 2 or 3 years this team will look totally different and with some right moves/draft picks there's a good chance that we're all singing a different tune in 3 years.
The Media and Fans that are killing Phil and the Knicks franchise should be a little more patient. Let the detractors get back to me if we come out of this draft with some quality young players. It's not easy to try and rebuild in NY and Phil is actually trying to accomplish that underneath all the things he's done to try and add some help around Melo. It's not like Phil has had picks to work with every year. From now on he will tho.
newyorker4ever wrote:nixluva wrote:Phil is trying to set this team up for future success. He never intended to be here forever but he has seriously tried to preserve and add to our draft picks and find young talent. You have to look beyond what he did to pacify Melo. He has 3 Picks in this draft and has preserved cap space. All of this will only help the franchise going forward.You gotta agree with this. Phil has done plenty of wrong with certain contracts and the way he's handling this Melo thing but i think with so much focus on the bad that he's done people are over looking a lot of the good things he's done for this teams future. This team is set up to have a good rebuild with the young players we already have and the draft picks he's kept and added for us. Obviously the bad stuff is what we hear about every single day from the media which we the fans start running with as well so it pretty drowns out any of the good thing we have to look forward to but in say 2 or 3 years this team will look totally different and with some right moves/draft picks there's a good chance that we're all singing a different tune in 3 years.
No one can deny that KP was a great pick. As was Willy.
He has given away Tim Hardaway, Jerian Grant, Galloway though... so not all great moves with our young guys.
Also, this notion that he hasn't traded picks is good. But it's worth remembering that because the 2014 and 2016 picks were traded, he wasn't allowed to offer the 2015 or 2017 picks in trades until actual draft night. The earliest pick he could trade was the 2018 pick - I remember that he tried to offer that pick for Jeff Teague at some point, but Atlanta didn't want it because it was too far out.
Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.
As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.
The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.
crzymdups wrote:Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.
The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.
The team was not coming together. The team just got its hat handed to them by Cleveland and it was over. Instead of rising to the challenge the team weak minded as it is fold like a cheap tent. Melo wants to stay in NY and I think he will out last Phil. Melo needs to change his game for the team, stop being difiant and adjust. If that means drawing doubles and passing then so be it. Phil gave Melo a NTC because he believed Melo would adjust his game and probably thought he could get him to change. That is Phil's failure. He has probably spoken to Melo and got no results from him. Now Phil trying to reach Melo through Media, unfortunately Phil doesn't know Melo and the NY media as well as he knew Jordan and Kobe and the media surrounding them.
Phil needs to get out of the seat and coach or stay quiet and keep everything in house.
Horny does this with all his vets. He defends Noah. He starts Noah. He defends Melo, he lets Melo to isolate a ton. He hasn't really gotten in the faces of his veterans like he should have. They've had too many games like the Laker game, and too little like the Clippers game.
Bottom line is Phil Jackson is a proven great and winner. The way he sees the game, the way he picks apart the mistakes in someone's demeanor, he is doing so because he knows that is not enough to win. People can whine all they want about how Phil has gone about this, but his analysis has been spot on.
Kobe Bryant used to loathe Phil. Hate him. Not even talk to him. They barely spoke to one another. This was during the time I believe Shaq was on the Lakers. It worked. Kobe was a winner. I hate Kobe's personality. I hate seeing him talk or immitate Jordan. But the guy backed it up. He knew what Phil was challenging him to do and he did. He was a great. Melo's a fruit cake next to Kobe. That's not even the point here. The point is Melo wants to hear none of what is actually wrong with his game. Whether it's from Phil. George Karl. Mike D'Antoni. He wants a yes man that kisses his ass.
I can't believe there is such a large portion of Knick fans that don't get this. Melo is a selfish player who has held the Knicks behind. He does not give a rats ass about the Knicks winning. He is in New York to make money, to establish his brand and to be happy with his family. All nice reasons for him individually, but as fans we should want much more. We should want to be a playoff team with a group of 4-5 good young players in their primes. That's not happening so long as Melo is holding the Knicks by the balls.
Phil's doing the Knicks a gigantic favor if he can get Melo out of town. The Knicks need to have 3-4 more players of Kristaps and Willy's talent level. That should be the immediate goal. The vets should be like Noah, Lee, Jennings. Guys coming in who know their role and want to help facilitate the young players into their maximum potential and move the ball.
That said, I do hope the Knicks can get something for Melo. But it is Horny's job to get everyone bought in and a great way to do that is to support them
nyknickzingis wrote:That has been Hornachek's biggest failure. He hasn't been able to see what Phil is trying to do. He's sucking up to Melo always. The coach that got the most out of Melo was George Karl. His team I think went to the Conference Finals with Melo in Denver, Karl pushed Melo to move the ball and play like a team leader and not just a scoring machine. He also challenged his defense.Horny does this with all his vets. He defends Noah. He starts Noah. He defends Melo, he lets Melo to isolate a ton. He hasn't really gotten in the faces of his veterans like he should have. They've had too many games like the Laker game, and too little like the Clippers game.
Bottom line is Phil Jackson is a proven great and winner. The way he sees the game, the way he picks apart the mistakes in someone's demeanor, he is doing so because he knows that is not enough to win. People can whine all they want about how Phil has gone about this, but his analysis has been spot on.
Kobe Bryant used to loathe Phil. Hate him. Not even talk to him. They barely spoke to one another. This was during the time I believe Shaq was on the Lakers. It worked. Kobe was a winner. I hate Kobe's personality. I hate seeing him talk or immitate Jordan. But the guy backed it up. He knew what Phil was challenging him to do and he did. He was a great. Melo's a fruit cake next to Kobe. That's not even the point here. The point is Melo wants to hear none of what is actually wrong with his game. Whether it's from Phil. George Karl. Mike D'Antoni. He wants a yes man that kisses his ass.
I can't believe there is such a large portion of Knick fans that don't get this. Melo is a selfish player who has held the Knicks behind. He does not give a rats ass about the Knicks winning. He is in New York to make money, to establish his brand and to be happy with his family. All nice reasons for him individually, but as fans we should want much more. We should want to be a playoff team with a group of 4-5 good young players in their primes. That's not happening so long as Melo is holding the Knicks by the balls.
Phil's doing the Knicks a gigantic favor if he can get Melo out of town. The Knicks need to have 3-4 more players of Kristaps and Willy's talent level. That should be the immediate goal. The vets should be like Noah, Lee, Jennings. Guys coming in who know their role and want to help facilitate the young players into their maximum potential and move the ball.
Again - Phil's tactics may work if he's actually coaching the team. As an executive tweeting from the shadows, who admittedly has not developed a relationship with Melo over three full years here... it's not working.
I don't think anyone is objecting to the idea behind what Phil is saying - yes, Melo should move the ball more and YES, at this point it is probably better that Melo and the team part ways.
The issue is HOW he is trying to do it. In the real world, intentions don't mean much. You are judged on how effectively you carry out your intentions.
Phil has failed to carry out his intention to A) install system basketball, B) instill the Garden with the sort of culture he promised and hoped for, C) get Melo to magically turn into a ball moving superstar when he never was one (the idea he was under George Karl is frankly laughable), D) assembling a roster of basketball players suited to play the Triangle.
Further, all these problems - a coach who won't confront Melo? Hired by Phil. Melo hard to trade because of a NTC? Given by Phil.
Again, my issue is HOW Phil is trying to accomplish his goals. His methods have failed repeatedly and have never been effective... and they've always been the same. He hasn't said "hey, tweeting inscrutable bullshit isn't working. hey, insulting the greatest players in the game (Steph Curry and Lebron) via twitter isn't working... maybe I should try to focus on my own team and try to build a relationship with Melo to get what I want?"
Nope. He just keeps tweeting and arranging "Melo is no gud" takedown stories with his media pals. In the end, you are judged on your results, not your intentions. It's true for Melo and it's true for Phil. If Phil's intention was to paint Melo as the bad guy and drive him out of town, it looks like that too is failing. So, yes, his intention is in the right place - it is his execution that is the problem. Phil has made himself the bad guy and a laughingstock and driven people to support Melo.
Knixkik wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:ramtour420 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Hornacek always defends melo and melo repays him by just playing the way he always has and ignoring Hornacek s plays and refuses to play any defense+1 let me add if I might, he also refuses to pass, to move without the ball, to fill up lanes in transition, and to own up to his shortcomings as a player. On the other hand tho he is really into his brand, fashion etc.
They Knicks have Rose and KP who are absolutely horrible defensive players. They are certainly bigger causes for the defense being bad then Melo. We can't possibly blame one guy for everything. Also the switch everything defensive philosophy is horrible and ineffective. I can't even think of a game where I was like wow...we wouldn't have given up 120 pts if Melo was a better weak side defender. That def cost us 35pts tonight. What a wild assertion.I will never understand this rep about KP. He's number 2 in the league at defensive FG% at the rim. That's the second best in the league. No ELITE rim protector is a bad defensive player. He is asked to defend perimeter players at 7'3, and not sure if that makes him a bad defender. Chris Paul isn't a bad defensive player because he can't defend post players. That's just me.
Watch a game where he reaches for silly fouls, gets caught up in the air on pump fakes(even though he is over 7 feet tall) and leaves his man wide open for threes. Problem is most "Rim protectors are 5's not guys required to cover stretch 4's. He cant play 5 (too small) and cant cover 4's, as you said.
crzymdups wrote:No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.
The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.
Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?
Tell you what I do understand...
Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.
fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.
The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.
Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?
Tell you what I do understand...
Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.
Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a shit job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a shit job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.
And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.
crzymdups wrote:What is it do you think I am defending? I dont have a ton of nice to say about Phil aside from not trading picks. Yes I have offered some perspective a bit deeper than Phil sucks Phil sucks Phil sucks. If you see that as defending him so be it.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.
The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.
Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?
Tell you what I do understand...
Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a shit job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a shit job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.
And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.
The guy I am tired of defending is Melo. I still think he's a great player but he's not a leader or a face of a franchise. He's simply too OK with losing so long as he's scoring and building his brand. I think thats what set Phil off, along with a refusal to stop the ball holding ISO play. Its possible seeing KP hold it longer and longer is pissing him off as well, not to mention KP's defensive regression from last year. Could it simply be that he see's a negative influence on KP? Those dots certainly connect as well. We were not playing great at 14-10. We were winning games 1-1 and closing out last possession with wins. I think its more likely Phil simply didnt see it as sustainable. To think a tweet, that was complimentary as well as having some valid criticism, could crumble this season so entirely tells me we need tougher player. That starts with the guy who's the face of the franchise and everyone's buddy in the lockerroom.
Billups said Melo needs strong leadership. Tyson said losing Kidd's leadership is what hurt the Knicks above all else. We just need to break away from this relationship. It will NOT make us a better team. It will allow us to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward.
fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:What is it do you think I am defending? I dont have a ton of nice to say about Phil aside from not trading picks. Yes I have offered some perspective a bit deeper than Phil sucks Phil sucks Phil sucks. If you see that as defending him so be it.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.
The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.
Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?
Tell you what I do understand...
Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a shit job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a shit job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.
And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.
The guy I am tired of defending is Melo. I still think he's a great player but he's not a leader or a face of a franchise. He's simply too OK with losing so long as he's scoring and building his brand. I think thats what set Phil off, along with a refusal to stop the ball holding ISO play. Its possible seeing KP hold it longer and longer is pissing him off as well, not to mention KP's defensive regression from last year. Could it simply be that he see's a negative influence on KP? Those dots certainly connect as well. We were not playing great at 14-10. We were winning games 1-1 and closing out last possession with wins. I think its more likely Phil simply didnt see it as sustainable. To think a tweet, that was complimentary as well as having some valid criticism, could crumble this season so entirely tells me we need tougher player. That starts with the guy who's the face of the franchise and everyone's buddy in the lockerroom.
Billups said Melo needs strong leadership. Tyson said losing Kidd's leadership is what hurt the Knicks above all else. We just need to break away from this relationship. It will NOT make us a better team. It will allow us to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward.
Yes, I've said that many times, too. I agree with the last part.
And I agree with the fact that we need to move on from Melo. But did I give Melo a no trade clause? Did I give Melo a 15% trade kicker? No. That's what Phil did. I don't disagree with his intentions, but I disagree with his methods and I think they've been proven to be ineffective. Phil's attempts to nudge Melo toward the door have resulted in Melo doubling down on staying here, created rifts on the team, and apparently one with the coach, too. Could this have been handled better? YES. And THAT is Phil's job. Everyone can see it's time to move on from Melo - Everyone. What matters is getting it done and how you do that. So far Phil has done a terrible job at it and we are currently, once again, back in our familiar spot as laughing stock of the entire league.
That last part about being the laughingstock of the entire league gets more tired to me than defending Melo, to be honest.
crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:What is it do you think I am defending? I dont have a ton of nice to say about Phil aside from not trading picks. Yes I have offered some perspective a bit deeper than Phil sucks Phil sucks Phil sucks. If you see that as defending him so be it.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.
The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.
Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?
Tell you what I do understand...
Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a shit job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a shit job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.
And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.
The guy I am tired of defending is Melo. I still think he's a great player but he's not a leader or a face of a franchise. He's simply too OK with losing so long as he's scoring and building his brand. I think thats what set Phil off, along with a refusal to stop the ball holding ISO play. Its possible seeing KP hold it longer and longer is pissing him off as well, not to mention KP's defensive regression from last year. Could it simply be that he see's a negative influence on KP? Those dots certainly connect as well. We were not playing great at 14-10. We were winning games 1-1 and closing out last possession with wins. I think its more likely Phil simply didnt see it as sustainable. To think a tweet, that was complimentary as well as having some valid criticism, could crumble this season so entirely tells me we need tougher player. That starts with the guy who's the face of the franchise and everyone's buddy in the lockerroom.
Billups said Melo needs strong leadership. Tyson said losing Kidd's leadership is what hurt the Knicks above all else. We just need to break away from this relationship. It will NOT make us a better team. It will allow us to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward.
Yes, I've said that many times, too. I agree with the last part.
And I agree with the fact that we need to move on from Melo. But did I give Melo a no trade clause? Did I give Melo a 15% trade kicker? No. That's what Phil did. I don't disagree with his intentions, but I disagree with his methods and I think they've been proven to be ineffective. Phil's attempts to nudge Melo toward the door have resulted in Melo doubling down on staying here, created rifts on the team, and apparently one with the coach, too. Could this have been handled better? YES. And THAT is Phil's job. Everyone can see it's time to move on from Melo - Everyone. What matters is getting it done and how you do that. So far Phil has done a terrible job at it and we are currently, once again, back in our familiar spot as laughing stock of the entire league.
That last part about being the laughingstock of the entire league gets more tired to me than defending Melo, to be honest.
I don't understand why your offended if they are laughing stocks or not. It doesn't matter. Its a state of the moment which can change. Complacency is what needs to be fought here that is what the real problem is. Phil I truly believe knows what the mistake he made with Melo and its no doubt the NTC. Melo is all about the money and he wants his destination plus the extra cash. Most likely the best deals are other teams than what Melo wants.
The question is you know the Knicks and Melo are not going to win here its a given. I don't understand why Melo doesn't want to move on you would think he wants a ring.
Vmart wrote:crzymdups wrote:fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:What is it do you think I am defending? I dont have a ton of nice to say about Phil aside from not trading picks. Yes I have offered some perspective a bit deeper than Phil sucks Phil sucks Phil sucks. If you see that as defending him so be it.fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:No we dont. I guess I am one of the ignorant. Phil has said he wants to play, build a roster around and have a coach that implements system basketball around ball movement and defense. He has said several times it does NOT have to be the triangle, but that he uses that example as its what he's familiar with.Vmart wrote:I don't think you guys understand what Phil is doing. He is trying to ignite a fire in Melo to win and not lose. Stop accepting losses as ho-hum. Losses should eat at him like the worst thing in the world for his legacy.As Shaq has said - these media mind games might work better if Phil was the coach and leading Melo in practice every day, establishing something positive in their relationship. Right now from all accounts, Melo and Phil's only relationship is Phil sniping through the media at Melo. It doesn't seem to be working all that well.
The simple fact is that this team was playing well and seemed to be coming together at 14-10 before Phil started sniping. I think Phil wants Melo to win, but I also think that he wants Melo to win via the Triangle. And Phil has once again not built a team capable of playing the Triangle. Speaking of being concerned with legacies, I think we all understand that Phil cares as much about the legacy of the Triangle as anything else.
Phil has always been an egotistical prick. We all knew that from watching coach the Lakers and Bulls. MJ was one of the leagues biggest a-holes. Kobe too. Lebron yells and snipes at teammates. But Melo wants everyone to be his buddy. See where I am going with this?
Tell you what I do understand...
Melo cares more about scoring points, AS games and Olympic medals than winning games in the NBA. Get em next time. Negative attention bothers MElo. Losing not so much.
Phil cares more about winning games than the triangle, his legacy or Jeannie's ass.Well, like I said, you get judged by results not intentions. You have the head coach Phil hired saying Phil is becoming a distraction. Every player on the team is sick of this circus. Courtney Lee, a player signed by Phil six months ago, says they're "beyond pep talks from Phil now." He's doing a shit job and it's amazing you guys continue to defend this crap. He was one of the best coaches of all time. He's doing a shit job here in a different role. Jordan was one of the best players of all time. And a terrible GM. It happens. All roles in basketball are not the same and require different skillsets.
And Phil wants to install the Triangle. Charley Rosen bemoaned Hornacek not committing to installing the Triangle. That's Phil talking. If you don't believe that, we can agree to disagree.
The guy I am tired of defending is Melo. I still think he's a great player but he's not a leader or a face of a franchise. He's simply too OK with losing so long as he's scoring and building his brand. I think thats what set Phil off, along with a refusal to stop the ball holding ISO play. Its possible seeing KP hold it longer and longer is pissing him off as well, not to mention KP's defensive regression from last year. Could it simply be that he see's a negative influence on KP? Those dots certainly connect as well. We were not playing great at 14-10. We were winning games 1-1 and closing out last possession with wins. I think its more likely Phil simply didnt see it as sustainable. To think a tweet, that was complimentary as well as having some valid criticism, could crumble this season so entirely tells me we need tougher player. That starts with the guy who's the face of the franchise and everyone's buddy in the lockerroom.
Billups said Melo needs strong leadership. Tyson said losing Kidd's leadership is what hurt the Knicks above all else. We just need to break away from this relationship. It will NOT make us a better team. It will allow us to take a step back in order to take 2-3 steps forward.
Yes, I've said that many times, too. I agree with the last part.
And I agree with the fact that we need to move on from Melo. But did I give Melo a no trade clause? Did I give Melo a 15% trade kicker? No. That's what Phil did. I don't disagree with his intentions, but I disagree with his methods and I think they've been proven to be ineffective. Phil's attempts to nudge Melo toward the door have resulted in Melo doubling down on staying here, created rifts on the team, and apparently one with the coach, too. Could this have been handled better? YES. And THAT is Phil's job. Everyone can see it's time to move on from Melo - Everyone. What matters is getting it done and how you do that. So far Phil has done a terrible job at it and we are currently, once again, back in our familiar spot as laughing stock of the entire league.
That last part about being the laughingstock of the entire league gets more tired to me than defending Melo, to be honest.
I don't understand why your offended if they are laughing stocks or not. It doesn't matter. Its a state of the moment which can change. Complacency is what needs to be fought here that is what the real problem is. Phil I truly believe knows what the mistake he made with Melo and its no doubt the NTC. Melo is all about the money and he wants his destination plus the extra cash. Most likely the best deals are other teams than what Melo wants.The question is you know the Knicks and Melo are not going to win here its a given. I don't understand why Melo doesn't want to move on you would think he wants a ring.
Yes, you're missing what I'm upset about. It's not the idea that Melo needs to move on. It is HOW PHIL JACKSON IS DOING HIS JOB.