Knicks · Hypotheticals... (page 1)
The horserace for the top pick in this 2017 draft is starting to round out and we are only 2 games or so, from the 4th worst record in the league. If we managed to play our way into the top 4 and get the top overall pick in the process, I think there would be a legitimate opportunity to field two competitive offers for Jimmy Butler and Anthony Davis, especially if we recoup future assets in a Melo deal.
The first domino would have to include moving Melo to LAC. They aren't moving their big 3 but I think both sides would agree to a Melo and Courtney Lee swap for Austin Rivers, JJ Redick, (a third team to take Jamal Crawford), a 2021 unprotected pick, a 2023 protected pick, along with a couple 2nd rounders. The Knicks could then move a guy like JJ Redick, once more to a team like POR for an additional first in this year's draft. That move would effectively leave us with Kristaps Porzingis, Willy Hernangomez, Kyle O'Quinn, our 2017 first round pick, our 2019 first round pick, our 2021 first round pick, LACs 2021 first round pick, LACs 2023 protected first round pick and cap space/financial flexibility to field both offers.
From what we've heard of BOS-CHI rumors involving Butler, the Bulls want a top pick in this years draft, a future pick and a capable ball player in the interim- rumored to be Jae Crowder or Avery Bradley. We might struggle to find the latter but could definitely load them up with valuable picks. As for the Pelicans, I think Derrick Rose's expirer, Kristaps, Hernangomez and O'Quinn might make them consider a trade, particularly if we take back bad contracts like Omer Asik, Ajinca Alexis, etc.
So, if it were possible, would you guys do it?
Look, the Warriors and Cavs have the title on lock down for the next few years. The time is best spent drafting young guys and building a good young team.
crzymdups wrote:Dear god, no.Look, the Warriors and Cavs have the title on lock down for the next few years. The time is best spent drafting young guys and building a good young team.
I agree. We have to build the team to catch the next wave in about 3-4 years
I can't believe I'm seeing people say to trade him.
When has trying to take a short cut EVER worked for this team? EVER? It never has. Get a good pick this year and next year a lot of us will be singing a different tune.
crzymdups wrote:Dear god, no.Look, the Warriors and Cavs have the title on lock down for the next few years. The time is best spent drafting young guys and building a good young team.
That is sound reasoning and a major reason why I support building through the draft BUT let's not forget that Jimmy Butler and Anthony Davis are 27 years old and 23 years old, respectively. That gives us an opportunity to not only compete in the now but the future as well.
crzymdups wrote:Kristaps is a once every ten or twenty years type of pick for a franchise to get. You don't trade that.I can't believe I'm seeing people say to trade him.
When has trying to take a short cut EVER worked for this team? EVER? It never has. Get a good pick this year and next year a lot of us will be singing a different tune.
Kristaps is "once every ten or twenty years...talent" but Anthony Davis isn't?
NardDogNation wrote:crzymdups wrote:Kristaps is a once every ten or twenty years type of pick for a franchise to get. You don't trade that.I can't believe I'm seeing people say to trade him.
When has trying to take a short cut EVER worked for this team? EVER? It never has. Get a good pick this year and next year a lot of us will be singing a different tune.
Kristaps is "once every ten or twenty years...talent" but Anthony Davis isn't?
Can we honestly say we know that Kristaps won't be as good as him?
If we try to maximize the pick this year and next, we could end up with a young, cheap trio better than Butler (30th pick), and AD...
crzymdups wrote:NardDogNation wrote:crzymdups wrote:Kristaps is a once every ten or twenty years type of pick for a franchise to get. You don't trade that.I can't believe I'm seeing people say to trade him.
When has trying to take a short cut EVER worked for this team? EVER? It never has. Get a good pick this year and next year a lot of us will be singing a different tune.
Kristaps is "once every ten or twenty years...talent" but Anthony Davis isn't?
Can we honestly say we know that Kristaps won't be as good as him?
If we try to maximize the pick this year and next, we could end up with a young, cheap trio better than Butler (30th pick), and AD...
There's a lot of twists and turns along the way before Kristaps gets to be as good as Davis currently is, mostly because or the decisive advantage Davis has on the defensive end. So why wait, when you can basically get that in the now and still have as many years of upside?
P.S., I am playing devil's advocate. I still prefer the route of rebuilding more organically but have talked my way into potentially supporting something like this...if we can add a 2nd legit superstar like Jimmy Butler. A major "pro" for this side of the argument is that these guys are "ready made" and don't have to worry about a toxic environment potentially derailing their development into stars. That's a major sell for me since I am concerned about how all this negative press might hurt Porzingis' and our draft picks psyche. I also want to return to a time when we were a rugged defensive team, which both Davis and Butler are bona-fide studs at.
NardDogNation wrote:crzymdups wrote:NardDogNation wrote:crzymdups wrote:Kristaps is a once every ten or twenty years type of pick for a franchise to get. You don't trade that.I can't believe I'm seeing people say to trade him.
When has trying to take a short cut EVER worked for this team? EVER? It never has. Get a good pick this year and next year a lot of us will be singing a different tune.
Kristaps is "once every ten or twenty years...talent" but Anthony Davis isn't?
Can we honestly say we know that Kristaps won't be as good as him?
If we try to maximize the pick this year and next, we could end up with a young, cheap trio better than Butler (30th pick), and AD...
There's a lot of twists and turns along the way before Kristaps gets to be as good as Davis currently is, mostly because or the decisive advantage Davis has on the defensive end. So why wait, when you can basically get that in the now and still have as many years of upside?
P.S., I am playing devil's advocate. I still prefer the route of rebuilding more organically but have talked my way into potentially supporting something like this...if we can add a 2nd legit superstar like Jimmy Butler. A major "pro" for this side of the argument is that these guys are "ready made" and don't have to worry about a toxic environment potentially derailing their development into stars. That's a major sell for me since I am concerned about how all this negative press might hurt Porzingis' and our draft picks psyche. I also want to return to a time when we were a rugged defensive team, which both Davis and Butler are bona-fide studs at.
If the Bulls trade Butler, I feel like they could get a lot more than we could offer.
Maybe if we had a top 5 pick to offer...
Though really, if you guys have issues with Melo not moving the ball... have you seen Butler play? He really is a ball stopper. I think he thinks he's a lot better than he actually is.
NardDogNation wrote:So, if it were possible, would you guys do it?
Some thoughts, it's an interesting pair of scenarios, but things I think would have to be openly addressed before any kind of deal could be consummated
A) Could the existing NOP front office survive trading Anthony Davis. I would say No to be honest. This is the type of trade that 99 percent of owners would simply veto from a marketing perspective. Trading multiple parts for a higher end player may be feasible in baseball or rarely in the NFL, but historically its ended up badly for teams in the NBA. Trading Davis would essentially boil down to him refusing to resign with the NOP and expiring on his rookie deal, he would need to openly attack the fan base in the press ( a common strategy to get traded out of town), the Knicks would need to offer the best overall option out of ALL options for possible trade ( other teams simply have more assets and more flexibility), the NOP front office would need an incoming and fresh GM or one outgoing to make the deal because a guy trying to keep his job could not make this trade and survive it i.e. a new GM would be seen under marching orders and this legacy would be the fault of the previous regime and an outgoing doesn't care since he's getting clipped anyway AND Davis would have to OK with signing a MAX extension with the Knicks, which would be instantly gutted to get him on their roster, except for Noah's dead contract.
Could it happen? Yes, in theory. Would it happen? It would need 8-9 super unlikely things to occur in a very specific sequence. And Davis would want to come to NY above all else. Is that very common in terms of NBA player and marketplace history? Not very common. Guys want max money, max years and the best chance to win.
B) What third team would want Jamal Crawford? He's aging, now injury prone, and he's never been a seamless fit on a roster and he's a bad contract. You could move him IF a positive trade asset was going with him. Who pays that asset? The Knicks have close to no trade leverage with Melo ( trade kicker and NTC) so any incoming asset in return for the Melo deal would need to instantly go out to comp a team to take in Crawfords deal.
The Clippers also have no incentive to trade draft picks, much less four of them, for Melo. No team would do that practically. Also any 2023 pick would extend beyond the range of where the current CBA applies to standards for how rookie contracts operate. No team would want to trade that far into uncertainty. A couple of 2nds? Maybe. But firsts, much less several and an unprotected pick? Sorry, I just can't see it. Flip the teams and circumstances around, if the Knicks and Clippers situations were reversed, would you want the Knicks to trade four picks, a young player and move an additional asset to move Crawford ( since it's still unclear who pays that specific tab) for two years of a ball stopping no defense chucker eating massive cap while playing a redundant position ( i.e. they already have Griffin at PF)?
I simply do not see any trade scenario where Melo moves and the Knicks do not take in a bad contract in exchange. The salary matching is just too hard without taking in a bad contract, and Melo is not going to a gutted team, not with his NTC.
I'll always give you specific credit for thinking out of the box and at least considering what other teams need and want and how they might operate in trade scenarios, but I think the issues I just brought up are too complicated to overcome for the Knicks.
It might simply be that the Knicks have to take in Austin Rivers, turn this trade into a four team massive trade, and use Austin Rivers to flip him to another team for expirings and a positive asset, if possible, and use that asset to pay for another team to absorb Crawfords contract. And this would mean Melo would move and nothing positive would come back except getting him off the roster and opening up future cap space. To me, this is the only realistic scenario to not eat Crawfords contract.
To move Melo off the roster, the Knicks need to eat something ugly. Sorry to say it, I just don't see a way around it at this point.
C) Trading for Jimmy Butler would be trading for a player in his prime, outside of cost control, to acquire him would gut the team of it's most valuable young cost controlled assets PLUS it would be trading big for small. How could you build around Butler? He doesn't seem like a low maintenance type, how would he react to NY, it's rabid media and no roster around him?
crzymdups wrote:NardDogNation wrote:crzymdups wrote:NardDogNation wrote:crzymdups wrote:Kristaps is a once every ten or twenty years type of pick for a franchise to get. You don't trade that.I can't believe I'm seeing people say to trade him.
When has trying to take a short cut EVER worked for this team? EVER? It never has. Get a good pick this year and next year a lot of us will be singing a different tune.
Kristaps is "once every ten or twenty years...talent" but Anthony Davis isn't?
Can we honestly say we know that Kristaps won't be as good as him?
If we try to maximize the pick this year and next, we could end up with a young, cheap trio better than Butler (30th pick), and AD...
There's a lot of twists and turns along the way before Kristaps gets to be as good as Davis currently is, mostly because or the decisive advantage Davis has on the defensive end. So why wait, when you can basically get that in the now and still have as many years of upside?
P.S., I am playing devil's advocate. I still prefer the route of rebuilding more organically but have talked my way into potentially supporting something like this...if we can add a 2nd legit superstar like Jimmy Butler. A major "pro" for this side of the argument is that these guys are "ready made" and don't have to worry about a toxic environment potentially derailing their development into stars. That's a major sell for me since I am concerned about how all this negative press might hurt Porzingis' and our draft picks psyche. I also want to return to a time when we were a rugged defensive team, which both Davis and Butler are bona-fide studs at.If the Bulls trade Butler, I feel like they could get a lot more than we could offer.
Maybe if we had a top 5 pick to offer...
Though really, if you guys have issues with Melo not moving the ball... have you seen Butler play? He really is a ball stopper. I think he thinks he's a lot better than he actually is.
The only team that could potentially trump an offer of a no.1 overall pick would be the Celtics and seeing how a deal hasn't been consummated as of yet, it leads me to believe that the Celti s are unwilling to pay said cost. It remains to be seen if the Bulls are serious about moving Butler but if they are, I don't see how a no.1 overall pick and future assets couldn't get it done. Kevin Love, at roughly the same age and roughly the same star capacity, was moved for just the pick alone, which leads me to believe that Butler could not be priced much higher than that.
Butler might be a ball stopper but he has also been capable of finding teammates, which is partially reflected in his apg. Most good players tend to have a "ball stopper" quality about them (see Durant, Isiab Thomas, Kyrie Irving, etc.). It does not necessarily have to negate their overall contribution to winning basketball games and I think a headier coach like Hornancek can find the right blend to make it work for all parties.
TripleThreat wrote:NardDogNation wrote:So, if it were possible, would you guys do it?
Some thoughts, it's an interesting pair of scenarios, but things I think would have to be openly addressed before any kind of deal could be consummatedA) Could the existing NOP front office survive trading Anthony Davis. I would say No to be honest. This is the type of trade that 99 percent of owners would simply veto from a marketing perspective. Trading multiple parts for a higher end player may be feasible in baseball or rarely in the NFL, but historically its ended up badly for teams in the NBA. Trading Davis would essentially boil down to him refusing to resign with the NOP and expiring on his rookie deal, he would need to openly attack the fan base in the press ( a common strategy to get traded out of town), the Knicks would need to offer the best overall option out of ALL options for possible trade ( other teams simply have more assets and more flexibility), the NOP front office would need an incoming and fresh GM or one outgoing to make the deal because a guy trying to keep his job could not make this trade and survive it i.e. a new GM would be seen under marching orders and this legacy would be the fault of the previous regime and an outgoing doesn't care since he's getting clipped anyway AND Davis would have to OK with signing a MAX extension with the Knicks, which would be instantly gutted to get him on their roster, except for Noah's dead contract.
Could it happen? Yes, in theory. Would it happen? It would need 8-9 super unlikely things to occur in a very specific sequence. And Davis would want to come to NY above all else. Is that very common in terms of NBA player and marketplace history? Not very common. Guys want max money, max years and the best chance to win.
B) What third team would want Jamal Crawford? He's aging, now injury prone, and he's never been a seamless fit on a roster and he's a bad contract. You could move him IF a positive trade asset was going with him. Who pays that asset? The Knicks have close to no trade leverage with Melo ( trade kicker and NTC) so any incoming asset in return for the Melo deal would need to instantly go out to comp a team to take in Crawfords deal.
The Clippers also have no incentive to trade draft picks, much less four of them, for Melo. No team would do that practically. Also any 2023 pick would extend beyond the range of where the current CBA applies to standards for how rookie contracts operate. No team would want to trade that far into uncertainty. A couple of 2nds? Maybe. But firsts, much less several and an unprotected pick? Sorry, I just can't see it. Flip the teams and circumstances around, if the Knicks and Clippers situations were reversed, would you want the Knicks to trade four picks, a young player and move an additional asset to move Crawford ( since it's still unclear who pays that specific tab) for two years of a ball stopping no defense chucker eating massive cap while playing a redundant position ( i.e. they already have Griffin at PF)?
I simply do not see any trade scenario where Melo moves and the Knicks do not take in a bad contract in exchange. The salary matching is just too hard without taking in a bad contract, and Melo is not going to a gutted team, not with his NTC.
I'll always give you specific credit for thinking out of the box and at least considering what other teams need and want and how they might operate in trade scenarios, but I think the issues I just brought up are too complicated to overcome for the Knicks.
It might simply be that the Knicks have to take in Austin Rivers, turn this trade into a four team massive trade, and use Austin Rivers to flip him to another team for expirings and a positive asset, if possible, and use that asset to pay for another team to absorb Crawfords contract. And this would mean Melo would move and nothing positive would come back except getting him off the roster and opening up future cap space. To me, this is the only realistic scenario to not eat Crawfords contract.
To move Melo off the roster, the Knicks need to eat something ugly. Sorry to say it, I just don't see a way around it at this point.
C) Trading for Jimmy Butler would be trading for a player in his prime, outside of cost control, to acquire him would gut the team of it's most valuable young cost controlled assets PLUS it would be trading big for small. How could you build around Butler? He doesn't seem like a low maintenance type, how would he react to NY, it's rabid media and no roster around him?
A.) Come what may, the Pelicans front office is highly unlikely to be retained should they guage the market for Davis or not. Outside of Anthony Davis (giftwrapped to them by the league), the franchise has no tangible assets to show for having been subpar all of these years. And the damage done by men like Dell Demps has been amplified by their penchant for overpaying subpar players to long-term deals. Heading into the 20017-2018 season, the franchise is committed to approximately $80 million ($79.3 according to HoopsHype) and will still have Jrue Holiday to re-sign, as well as 7 vacant roster spots to fill. With a cap estimated to be about $103 million, the Pelicans have very little flexibility to upgrade the roster and have very few alternatives to replace Jrue Holiday if they fail to meet his contract demands.
Few teams get better or better their situation by moving a talent like Anthony Davis but do the Pelicans really have a choice? They won't have the money to build a competitive roster around him and keeping him barely furthers their bottom line (are estimated to have only made $16 million in profits last season).
Enter: Kristaps Porzingis (and company). No, he is not the player Davis is at the moment BUT he has the potential to reach that level of stardom, while creating a level of intrigue that will keep fans coming to the games in the interim. Should the Knicks assume several of the horrendous contracts Demps penned, the Pelicans will have the tools to hit the proverbial "reset button" to clear their books and healthily build around another rising star big man. Doing so might also affect their bottom-line since the lowered overhead in player salaries might allow them to even turn more of a profit than they did with half-sold arenas with Davis.
B.) Jamal Crawford's contract is effectively a one year flier, since this season has nearly concluded and third year is non-guaranteed. With more thsn half of the league having cap space yet again, what free agents are the Nets or Sixers reasonably going to pursue that won't be similarly overpaid? At the very least, Crawford at least allows your payroll to reach the salary-floor and offers an "entertaining" style of play until either franchise stabilizes themselves and are able to become a sustainable winner.
As for whether the Clippers would overpay for Melo, I think they would. This is the Doc Rivers show and I have very little confidence in his judgment of talent, which could allow us to get an upperhand in negotiations; particularly with CP3 and Blake Griffin as impending free agents. Two future firsts would be a must for me though. Not only are we giving up an "all-star" player, we are also replacing JJ Redick with the cost-controlled contract of Courtney Lee that could help replicate some of what they would invitably lose when JJ walks for a bigger pay-day. That has value and we'd need to be appropriately compensated for the expense.
C.) Up until he started publically criticizing teammates, Butler has been fairly low-key. I view this season as an anomaly and still believe he has the mental makeup of a winner (which Tom Thibs seems to vouch for). I do think the asking price for him will be high but if we were to get the no.1 overall pick in the draft, I do feel that a deal would be feasible....but we'd definitely need several enticing draft picks as well.
Butler/Davis does not appeal to me. I'd argue we would be in the same W-L boat as we are right now.
I am not a big Melo fan, but he is an all-star level/top 20-25 player. A very good scorer. KP and Willy are going to the rising stars game. Basically our entire starting frontcourt is going to be represent at the AS weekend. It tells you where our problems are.
BACKCOURT.
Zero leadership outside of Jennings, who is not a starter on a good team. He's a good reserve.
Little defense.
If I trade KP, Willy, and others, I want to get a top 5 backcourt player. Anthony Davis is a great big, better than KP. KP may never become as good as AD. However, what we need is backcourt talent. We need a point guard badly. Someone that leads the team, that can take ownership of the offense and how it's run. Defensively we need guards that take pride in defense, are physical, tough. I don't have a clue how we attain this, but we need to.
Even with Melo's poor defensive habits, KP's inconsitency and Willy's "green" defense, the Knicks front court is one of the best in the league. How many teams have a 3 that gives you 23 a night, a 4 that gives you 18/7/2 (2 three pointers and 2 blocks a game) and a 5 that is a double/double machine? Not many front courts have that.
What we don't have is guards. Man I really thought Phil did something major with the changes he made from Jose/Afflalo. But he has to once again make major changes. Our backcourt just stinks. Lee and Rose are good reserve players. Neither should be starting on a good team. It's so frustrating.
So yeah if forced, I'd probably trade KP, and I'd hate to, but I would. However I'd want a John Wall, Westbrook or Harden type of backcourt player coming back in the trade. If we could get one of those kind of players, as much as I love KP's talent, I'd understand moving him. Outside of that, nah. Lets see where KP is in 2 years. I'd trade him, if the player coming back could immediately being paired with Melo do two things. 1) Move Melo into a 2nd option role. 2) Lead the team to 50 type of wins. The 3 players that come to mind are Wall, Westbrook, Harden. There may be other guards I'm missing, but those 3 stick out to me. All are in their prime. I'd hate to see a talent like KP go, but I'd understand the reasoning.
Vmart wrote:Do your time. Stop looking for short cuts, draft well and high. Build the Knicks in to the next great team in 3-4 years. By that time teams like the Cavs and Warriors will be in decline and the Knicks will be ready to be the next.
Are you sure that we have the environment to properly develop elite talent? To be honest, I've never been comfortable enough with the city or team to think we could get the best out of a young and impressionable. For instance, does Kawhi Leonard take the same developmental path with us as he did with the Spurs?
EnySpree wrote:crzymdups wrote:Dear god, no.Look, the Warriors and Cavs have the title on lock down for the next few years. The time is best spent drafting young guys and building a good young team.
I agree. We have to build the team to catch the next wave in about 3-4 years
This is exactly right. Once golden state and Cleveland are done it's wide open. Super teams will be done and we will have a chance to compete if we stock up on young talent now in addition to KP and Willy and develop them.
crzymdups wrote:I think right now its awful tough to project KP getting to Anthony Davis level. AD's best running mate is JRue and he's always hurt. Davis is a super star talent.. he's really a young KG caliber player. Really tough to presume KP will reach that level, but the bottom line is I agree with crzymdups in regard to the timing. We dont have enough chips to do anything crazy and we dont have the prospects or parts to balance the roster after.NardDogNation wrote:crzymdups wrote:Kristaps is a once every ten or twenty years type of pick for a franchise to get. You don't trade that.I can't believe I'm seeing people say to trade him.
When has trying to take a short cut EVER worked for this team? EVER? It never has. Get a good pick this year and next year a lot of us will be singing a different tune.
Kristaps is "once every ten or twenty years...talent" but Anthony Davis isn't?
Can we honestly say we know that Kristaps won't be as good as him?
If we try to maximize the pick this year and next, we could end up with a young, cheap trio better than Butler (30th pick), and AD...
I would love to be able to add a couple more building block guys, then you can focus on developing that core and managing the roster so we have a chance to add a couple big pieces via FA
https://www.google.com/amp/inkonindy.com...
Also, this season looks like it is quickly going nowhere unless the Pacers magically turn things around after the All-Star break. With all of these factors in mind, George has quickly become non-committal about his future with the Pacers after 2019.“As I told Larry (Bird, the Pacers’ president), I always want to play on a winning team. I want to be a part of a team that has a chance to win (it all). That’s important. Say what you want; I want to compete for something. It’s frustrating just playing the game for stats or for numbers or to showcase yourself. Man, I want a chance to play for a chance to win a championship.”
NardDogNation wrote:Vmart wrote:Do your time. Stop looking for short cuts, draft well and high. Build the Knicks in to the next great team in 3-4 years. By that time teams like the Cavs and Warriors will be in decline and the Knicks will be ready to be the next.Are you sure that we have the environment to properly develop elite talent? To be honest, I've never been comfortable enough with the city or team to think we could get the best out of a young and impressionable. For instance, does Kawhi Leonard take the same developmental path with us as he did with the Spurs?
We have the environment we just don't have the media. That is the real problem in NY. If a star is drafted along with KP the odds of getting better are fast. You may not have the best team but the talent can develop. Even the media will fall in line if the team is competitive.