yellowboy90 wrote:It's hard to evaluate Jeff with the roster Phil gave him while also being stuck with Rambis on the staff.
If you look at the sideline during timeouts, there is one assistant who is engaged in coaching and helping the coach. He looks like hs has the coaches trust. I'm guessing that is the one assistant the coach was allowed to bring in. Hard to make any judgements when there is so much dysfunction in the front office and coaching staff. The coach should be given the lattitude to select his staff and the style of play without interference. Until then, coach gets a pass from me
Rookie wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:It's hard to evaluate Jeff with the roster Phil gave him while also being stuck with Rambis on the staff.
If you look at the sideline during timeouts, there is one assistant who is engaged in coaching and helping the coach. He looks like hs has the coaches trust. I'm guessing that is the one assistant the coach was allowed to bring in. Hard to make any judgements when there is so much dysfunction in the front office and coaching staff. The coach should be given the lattitude to select his staff and the style of play without interference. Until then, coach gets a pass from me
Come on man, this is easily verifiable instead of just guessing based on what you saw for 2 seconds during 1 game.
Coach brought on all the assistants, Rambis was kept on from the previous. Jeff's one guy he wasn't able to bring had moved on to the Cavs who did not let him leave.
2 hold overs, 3 new coaches. So then you are saying the 3 new guys are Jeff's guys? And the 2 remaing holdovers are Jeff's guys. And you can confirm there is no dysfunction amonngst the coaching staff. Thanks, Not lazy honestly didn't know that
I loved the hire at the time at least in part because I thought it meant no more Rambis. It is hard to evaluate him based on the roster he has and Rambis. I think he deserves another year but it should be Rambis free in my opinion.
CrushAlot wrote:I loved the hire at the time at least in part because I thought it meant no more Rambis. It is hard to evaluate him based on the roster he has and Rambis. I think he deserves another year but it should be Rambis free in my opinion.
For me Rambis is only a minor issue. The real issue IMO is the players on the court and how much they actually buy into what Hornacek is asking of them. He needs his guys that will execute what he wants and you can see how Baker actually does what Hornacek is asking. Imagine a more talented player in the same position!!!
nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:I loved the hire at the time at least in part because I thought it meant no more Rambis. It is hard to evaluate him based on the roster he has and Rambis. I think he deserves another year but it should be Rambis free in my opinion.
For me Rambis is only a minor issue. The real issue IMO is the players on the court and how much they actually buy into what Hornacek is asking of them. He needs his guys that will execute what he wants and you can see how Baker actually does what Hornacek is asking. Imagine a more talented player in the same position!!!
As long as you believe that, you will never been on the same page as most. you make so many excuses for phil and his boy it's really unbelievable..
you hardly ever see a head coach not able to pick his own top assistants..so for you to think that's a minor issue, that's a problem.
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:I loved the hire at the time at least in part because I thought it meant no more Rambis. It is hard to evaluate him based on the roster he has and Rambis. I think he deserves another year but it should be Rambis free in my opinion.
For me Rambis is only a minor issue. The real issue IMO is the players on the court and how much they actually buy into what Hornacek is asking of them. He needs his guys that will execute what he wants and you can see how Baker actually does what Hornacek is asking. Imagine a more talented player in the same position!!!
As long as you believe that, you will never been on the same page as most. you make so many excuses for phil and his boy it's really unbelievable..
you hardly ever see a head coach not able to pick his own top assistants..so for you to think that's a minor issue, that's a problem.
Hornacek is a grown man! He is free to quit if the presence of Rambis was a problem for him. Hornacek has been having more issues with getting Melo and Rose to fully buy in than he's had any big issues with Rambis being an assistant.
We've seen some growth from KP, Willy, Baker and Holiday. I think the younger players are responding to the coaching. Seems to me that Hornacek is using Rambis when he needs and when doesn't he does what he thinks needs to be done. The Knicks style of play is NOTHING like Rambis tried to do.
In an ideal world, the head coach has credibility with his players as do the assistant coaches. In our case, I'm not sure Melo or D-Rose really listen to anyone...could you see Popovich having either of them on his roster?
Similarly, Rambis (regardless of what you think of his coaching abilities; in my case, not much) doesn't give the impression that many (any) of the players respect his input. Admittedly, that's purely a subjective observation. I don't think Hornacek would have Rambis on his staff if he had any choice in the matter.
In spite of the lack of results, I want to give Hornacek more time. IMO we're a team that's better than its record. What've we had 15 losses this year by five or fewer points? To me that's indicative of a team that has to learn how to win/finish games. JH deserves the chance to see if he can take the team to that next step.
CrushAlot wrote:I loved the hire at the time at least in part because I thought it meant no more Rambis. It is hard to evaluate him based on the roster he has and Rambis. I think he deserves another year but it should be Rambis free in my opinion.
I agree. It is hard not feel like Rambis was foisted on him by Phil. Who knows how much Rambis did or did not impact the season... but really... has he proven he adds anything to the team in three full years since Phil signed on?
Tonight's game is not really a good sign for Hornacek so far. No Melo holding the ball or supposedly playing no D to blame things on... they're down 19-6 to the terrible Magic who are tanking and missing Vucevic
crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:I loved the hire at the time at least in part because I thought it meant no more Rambis. It is hard to evaluate him based on the roster he has and Rambis. I think he deserves another year but it should be Rambis free in my opinion.
I agree. It is hard not feel like Rambis was foisted on him by Phil. Who knows how much Rambis did or did not impact the season... but really... has he proven he adds anything to the team in three full years since Phil signed on?
He's the defensive coordinator and now the offensive coordinator too
...Not to mention phil undermining his authority like he did with Fish as well. Not sure how much different it would be without Rambis. Big chief triangle will still be here...
crzymdups wrote:Tonight's game is not really a good sign for Hornacek so far. No Melo holding the ball or supposedly playing no D to blame things on... they're down 19-6 to the terrible Magic who are tanking and missing Vucevic
So what does the 110 points and the win say now for him?
Hornachek has a great mind on offense.
He has made the Triangle much better than when the team ran it with Fisher.
We're running Triangle mixed in with pick rolls, drag screens, and secondary breaking offense. The team's putting up 106 for the season which based on the talent we have is pretty solid.
The problem is his defensive coaching. I feel he doesn't call enough time outs to address defense. He needs more defensive talent (young fresher legs) but he also doesn't coach enough defense from what I see.
I'd give him one more season to show what he can do with a younger more athletic team and also I'd like to see him free of the Melo/Rose pairing which was a horrible move by Phil.
Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?
From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.
Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!
You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.
We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.
So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?
Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?
What's the team's record since they began involving the Triangle consistently?
I believe it's 3-4 with two 1 point/possesion losses to Toronto and 76ers. Easily could be 6-1 in this stretch since the ASB running more Triangle.
Jeff's made the Triangle look good. The offense is a combination of Triangle, secondary break, pick and rolls, drag screens/weaves. He's done a nice job in regards to the offense. Our out of bounds plays after a time out are usually fantastic. That is an indication of a good coach on offense usually.
The problem is defense, and his lack of control over Melo/Rose. Melo/Rose I give him a pass on as I haven't seen too many coaches get Melo/Rose to play different. They are both high usage players who do not enjoy moving the ball or running a system. Rose has shown some growth, but not enough to say he's a good point guard for us. I would like to see Horny coach free of the Melo/Rose combination like we saw last night. Free of Melo drama and Melo's style of play. If we could replace Rose with a better point guard, even better. But I would like to see that play out for one year before I gave up on Hornachek.
Last year were not even able to average 100 points a game under Fisher. The Triangle looked weak. The previous year, our offense was even worse. Hornachek has taken Phil's principles and belief in the Triangle and actually made it fit in the modern NBA. People this team dropped 113 points last night without it's all star. The guy knows offense and how to get his team's to score in any offense. The issues are all about D and getting stars like Melo/Rose to buy in. Get Horny a younger more athletic starting 5 like our bench unit was last night. The bench unit of KP or O'Quinn, Thomas, Holiday, Lee or Baker and Randle all are young athletic and hard working players who follow the system, Problem is outside of KP and Lee those guys are not starting level talent. So now you need to go out and find starters who play the same way our bench does. Move the ball, athletic, hard moving your feet defense, committed to coach's system. Not about personal stats.
nyknickzingis wrote:nixluva wrote:Just understand that EVERY coach needs that guy on the floor who is an extension of him on the court! That ain't Rose and that ain't Melo either. Baker has been the closest thing to that as he is developing. Hornacek had a guy like Dragic before and that makes a HUGE difference. Drafting or signing a floor leader who can be what Hornacek needs will be very important.
Rose and Lee don't work great together but Rose and Baker look really good. I remember even when Baker started a few games with Rose, there was some nice stuff.I don't know if Baker is capable to play big minutes, but he's a nice backup to have. I also think Rose is extremely underrated by our fan base. He is the only guard on the team that can constantly attack and break down a defense. You can not win in this league without atleast one guard who can do what Rose does. The thing is, there's also Melo. So it's been hard to share the ball between the two of them and KP.
I think if we just have Rose and KP, then guys that catch and shoot around them, cut. Defend. The team will do very well. I also like Rose's competitive spirit. I'm not interested in Mike Conley money. Forget about it. But if he's not BSing and ge really wants to stay a Knick, I do a 4 year deal worth 90M with the 4th year being a team option. Then use the MLE to upgrade the bench, as the MLE is quite high now at nearly $8.5M. Of course that is all based on us not drafting a young point guard in the lottery, and also Melo accepting a trade to move on. If Melo is staying, regardless we should let Rose walk.
However realize Rose is 28 still very explosive and looks like he has no more longterm health issues. The player next to him has to be a playmaker as well. Lee is a scorer/shooter. Baker is a playmaker. Maybe look to get a 2 with MLE who likes to do what Baker does, which is pass the ball and look for the open man. Rose can then be more of a natural 2.
I agree w a lot of this but I don't want rose back
His defense is all talk no action
I don't Think he's bought into the program and am not confident he ever will
I'm definitely hoping we sign someone better than Rose and I'm looking forward to maybe doing that. If it happens I'll be very pleased. Ideally we get a point guard that drives, that can shoot the 3, and passes to open teammates. George Hill is a nice player who isn't a superstar who can do that. I don't know if he would come. Holiday is also a better player but he'll cost 25$ million or more a year on a fully guaranteed 4 year deal. Plus even then he may not want to come. I'm rooting for the Knicks to land a really good point guard, because we need one. Seems like we have a couple quality backups in Baker/Randle. The starting position is a major hole going into the free agency. Fingers crossed we get someone better than Rose. I just don't want to go into the season without a starting level PG who can not attack starting level defenses off the dribble. When teams see that they will stick to KP and other role players like glue, sort of like we had with Calderon.
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:I loved the hire at the time at least in part because I thought it meant no more Rambis. It is hard to evaluate him based on the roster he has and Rambis. I think he deserves another year but it should be Rambis free in my opinion.
For me Rambis is only a minor issue. The real issue IMO is the players on the court and how much they actually buy into what Hornacek is asking of them. He needs his guys that will execute what he wants and you can see how Baker actually does what Hornacek is asking. Imagine a more talented player in the same position!!!
As long as you believe that, you will never been on the same page as most. you make so many excuses for phil and his boy it's really unbelievable..
you hardly ever see a head coach not able to pick his own top assistants..so for you to think that's a minor issue, that's a problem.
Hornacek is a grown man! He is free to quit if the presence of Rambis was a problem for him. Hornacek has been having more issues with getting Melo and Rose to fully buy in than he's had any big issues with Rambis being an assistant.
We've seen some growth from KP, Willy, Baker and Holiday. I think the younger players are responding to the coaching. Seems to me that Hornacek is using Rambis when he needs and when doesn't he does what he thinks needs to be done. The Knicks style of play is NOTHING like Rambis tried to do.
That's your perception, Jeff has never indicated that melo and Rose are not buying in, they could have waive rose in a heart beat, especially after AWOL, the missed passes, and the suspect defense.
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:I loved the hire at the time at least in part because I thought it meant no more Rambis. It is hard to evaluate him based on the roster he has and Rambis. I think he deserves another year but it should be Rambis free in my opinion.
For me Rambis is only a minor issue. The real issue IMO is the players on the court and how much they actually buy into what Hornacek is asking of them. He needs his guys that will execute what he wants and you can see how Baker actually does what Hornacek is asking. Imagine a more talented player in the same position!!!
As long as you believe that, you will never been on the same page as most. you make so many excuses for phil and his boy it's really unbelievable..
you hardly ever see a head coach not able to pick his own top assistants..so for you to think that's a minor issue, that's a problem.
Hornacek is a grown man! He is free to quit if the presence of Rambis was a problem for him. Hornacek has been having more issues with getting Melo and Rose to fully buy in than he's had any big issues with Rambis being an assistant.
We've seen some growth from KP, Willy, Baker and Holiday. I think the younger players are responding to the coaching. Seems to me that Hornacek is using Rambis when he needs and when doesn't he does what he thinks needs to be done. The Knicks style of play is NOTHING like Rambis tried to do.
That's your perception, Jeff has never indicated that melo and Rose are not buying in, they could have waive rose in a heart beat, especially after AWOL, the missed passes, and the suspect defense.
I'm seeing that both of Rose and Melo don't really execute the offense from a Team perspective the way everyone else does. Jeff may not be openly upset but i'm pretty sure he sees the difference when he sends in the kids. Jeff if you put him on a Truth Serum would tell you he's tired of trying to get them to buy in fully. That's my view based on the small signs when Jeff has kept them on the bench in favor of the kids.
When u evaluate what Hornacek did his first season as a Knicks head-coach
1) Grading coach Horn on the great team-ball from trio scoring starters Rose/Melo/KP?
"F" Failure
2) Grading coach Horn on the Knicks defensive-effort?
"F" Failure
3) Grading coach Horn offense/defensive plays after a time-out?
"F" Failure
4) Grading coach Horn substitute rotation?
"F" Failure
Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.
Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!
You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.
We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.
So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?
Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?
Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.
meloshouldgo wrote:Nalod wrote:Ramis is the problem? How does one quantify this? Was he the problem in LA? Is he the problem with Noah? Willy? Kp? KOQ? How is he a problem?
How is he a problem with Bakers defense? or when BJ was playing pesky D and causing disruptions? How is he the problem?From what I read, Hornacek met with him and hired him.
Also, lots of coaches inherit assistants. it not like Jeff has grown his own tree of guys like Larry, Phil and others do over long time.
Jeff is the head coach, and until otherwise, its his job blame or glory!
You can't coach effort and its hard to coach a revolving door too! We have lots of new guys, and a new coach this year. We are not a stable organization but we are starting to build a foundation for the first time in many years and it does not begin with Melo.
We have a culture, system and process that is bringing in youthier talent and they are developing. What is not doing so great is the talented proven veterans who are resisting the system or giving the proper effort on defense.
So rather than point a finger on whose to blame, how can one quantify that a better job could have been done by rambis and not another coach, and that its not Jeff? or anything else?
Having an agenda is convenient isn't it?
Good post, I agree. People with agendas seem to pile on each other's posts to make it sound like they are putting across some mainstream idea. Rambis has actually done ok this year. Knicks play good defense when they have the second unit on the floor. Its only when our "stars" take the floor which is early and often does our defense suck.
Stop being naïve, you know damn well, no phil, no rambis, so just cut it out, there's no agenda here.
Every one knows, coaches put the most work in during the last 5 mins of a game. You don't believe me, go on youtube and watch the the ROUND TABLE INTERVIEW with 6 NBA COACHES including, MDA, Tom Thibs, McHale, Gentry and a few others.
Being a good coach means adjusting to your players, everybody with good sense knows this, and it's been echoed on this same board 100's of times. In the beginning we adjust the system to benefit Jennings and rose, running similar plays to JH's Suns days. Then phil drop the " we aren't running the triangle enough" in early December, and then came close losses, which showed a terrible lack of execution in the clutch, when prior to that we were winning the close games.
No one on this roster has been anything remotely close to consistent, young, old or new player.
I wanna see my COACH with JVG bags under his eyes, his only excuse after a loss.." I didn't prepare the team enough"
