Knicks · Evaluating Jeff Hornacek (page 4)
We've seen what came of trying to build around Melo and now it's time to prepare for the future. People need to get with the program!!! The young players seem to have responded to Hornacek positively. That's what matters most.
That I agree with.
From what I understand, he wanted capspace and to not take on too many big contracts.
But definitely agree that he made mistakes there.
However in 2016, if you compare rosters, we were clearly upgraded talent wise.
Rose/Jennings at PG
Lee/Holiday at SG
Melo/Kuz at SF
Porzingis/Thomas at PF
Noah/O'Quinn/Willy at C
Come on tell me the 39 win team Phil inherited was better or more talented? No way, I much rather have the team he had put together to start this season.
Talent is not the issue with the team this current season. We are not contenders, but the talent was all there to be a playoff team. For whatever reason, that will be debatable probably all offseason, the team did not put it together.
Coaching is one possible reason. Absolutely. I think Hornachek has done a miserable job with Melo/Rose. He looks a good coach when KP/Lee play with the 2nd unit or the 2nd unit plays. He looks inept when the starters play. He tends to shuffle players out of roles too quickly. I do see flaws and fault with him.
Phil signing Noah was a miserable move, but outside of Noah, he got the team significant talent this year. The way O'Quinn and Willy have played, it erases the lack of impact Noah has had. We are getting 10$M a year type of production from O'Quinn and Willy when they make like a combined $6M. This offsets Noah's horrible contract and signing. After Noah, the team upgraded all it's weaker positions vs last year.
My own opinion is that Melo is just a bad fit with this group especially with Rose. I don't think Hornachek is the right coach for them. I think KP is lost in between especially when we play him at 4, he does have the same impact as when he's at 5. I think players know they can do more and want to do more but can not because of the way Melo/Rose play. To me the 3 main issues with the team are Melo, Rose, Horny, Just no mix. Hopefully next year we'll have a different set up as I can't see the team bring Melo, Rose and Horny all back.
Knicks have some big decisions to make. They can not go into another season in "win now around Melo" mode. It has proven to be a massive failure. If they do want to do it again around Melo, they have to get a coach who Melo respects and play a way where the team is built around an isolation heavy player. They can not play the same way they strive to play (Or Phil wants to) which is a Spurs model. Phil wants to build a Spurs model here, and he drafts international well and scouts n develops D leaguers into solid rotation guys just like Spurs do. The major difference is Spurs don't have ball stoppers or isolation heavy players. We do. You can't become Spurs like if you have Melo and Rose, Phil. He needs to make a call on this over the summer.
Maybe its too many new faces. Inexperienced role players. Blame Geometry, blame Rambis.
nyknickzingis wrote:Phil could have gotten more for Shump/Smith/Chandler.
That I agree with.From what I understand, he wanted capspace and to not take on too many big contracts.
But definitely agree that he made mistakes there.However in 2016, if you compare rosters, we were clearly upgraded talent wise.
Rose/Jennings at PG
Lee/Holiday at SG
Melo/Kuz at SF
Porzingis/Thomas at PF
Noah/O'Quinn/Willy at CCome on tell me the 39 win team Phil inherited was better or more talented? No way, I much rather have the team he had put together to start this season.
Talent is not the issue with the team this current season. We are not contenders, but the talent was all there to be a playoff team. For whatever reason, that will be debatable probably all offseason, the team did not put it together.
Coaching is one possible reason. Absolutely. I think Hornachek has done a miserable job with Melo/Rose. He looks a good coach when KP/Lee play with the 2nd unit or the 2nd unit plays. He looks inept when the starters play. He tends to shuffle players out of roles too quickly. I do see flaws and fault with him.
Phil signing Noah was a miserable move, but outside of Noah, he got the team significant talent this year. The way O'Quinn and Willy have played, it erases the lack of impact Noah has had. We are getting 10$M a year type of production from O'Quinn and Willy when they make like a combined $6M. This offsets Noah's horrible contract and signing. After Noah, the team upgraded all it's weaker positions vs last year.
My own opinion is that Melo is just a bad fit with this group especially with Rose. I don't think Hornachek is the right coach for them. I think KP is lost in between especially when we play him at 4, he does have the same impact as when he's at 5. I think players know they can do more and want to do more but can not because of the way Melo/Rose play. To me the 3 main issues with the team are Melo, Rose, Horny, Just no mix. Hopefully next year we'll have a different set up as I can't see the team bring Melo, Rose and Horny all back.
Knicks have some big decisions to make. They can not go into another season in "win now around Melo" mode. It has proven to be a massive failure. If they do want to do it again around Melo, they have to get a coach who Melo respects and play a way where the team is built around an isolation heavy player. They can not play the same way they strive to play (Or Phil wants to) which is a Spurs model. Phil wants to build a Spurs model here, and he drafts international well and scouts n develops D leaguers into solid rotation guys just like Spurs do. The major difference is Spurs don't have ball stoppers or isolation heavy players. We do. You can't become Spurs like if you have Melo and Rose, Phil. He needs to make a call on this over the summer.
This is a good post. I agree completely.
The mystery is why this mix didn't work. The answer is some combination of Melo, Rose, Hornacek, and Phil.
I think we're all tired of the blame game, it's pointless. Hopefully Phil moves on from Rose (of all the trades he's made, I think Rose for Rubio would've been by far his best... I hope there's some chance of revisiting a sign and trade in the summer, but who really knows).
I think we do need to just move on from Melo at this point... but who the heck knows if Melo will see it that way. The best fit still seems to be the Clippers. Hopefully Melo is frustrated enough to just let it go this off-season... he only has one more year under contract (before his option year, at least). He has a home in LA, he can find plenty of business opportunities in LA, Lala should be able to get more TV work in LA. At this rate, I think it'll happen.
Once Melo and Rose are gone, I am fine trying to do a ground up transformation into a Spurs-type model. We have some building blocks there and more importantly we finally have all our picks for the foreseeable future (and for that, I do thank Phil). Go for a slow build. Phil has messed up when he's tried to acquire a veteran. He's done better with undrafted guards learning his system in Westchester and then coming to the big leagues - Galloway, Baker, Randle all look like better fits for what Phil wants to do than Jennings or Rose.
Anyway, hopefully we get a nice top 6 pick, it'd be amazing to jump up into the top 3 somehow. I agree with Briggs that they should try to find the Seth Curry types in FA. How much different would this season have been if the Knicks gave Seth Curry $5M instead of Jennings? And I'll cop to wanting to give Jennings a look, but man the wheels came off on Jennings after a solid first month.
The only thing I'll say is that I'm not sure Hornacek is the right coach going forward. But this season is not fair to judge him on. He should get all of next year. Heck, I'd be fine with him getting two more full years - we have the lotto picks. I really think we need high quality picks in the 2017, 2018, and 2019 draft to really build the depth you need to contend. Look at Boston - no real superstars, but a deep deep team that fits together and can match up pretty well with the Cavs and Warriors. That's what we should aim to build, then maybe try to sign a star or two with cap room. If we have a good young team like Boston, stars will come to NY. But we don't have that depth now. We really need a few years to build it up. Like Milwaukee is in the process of doing with Giannis, Brogdon, Parker, etc.
nyknickzingis wrote:Phil could have gotten more for Shump/Smith/Chandler.
That I agree with.From what I understand, he wanted capspace and to not take on too many big contracts.
But definitely agree that he made mistakes there.However in 2016, if you compare rosters, we were clearly upgraded talent wise.
Rose/Jennings at PG
Lee/Holiday at SG
Melo/Kuz at SF
Porzingis/Thomas at PF
Noah/O'Quinn/Willy at CCome on tell me the 39 win team Phil inherited was better or more talented? No way, I much rather have the team he had put together to start this season.
Talent is not the issue with the team this current season. We are not contenders, but the talent was all there to be a playoff team. For whatever reason, that will be debatable probably all offseason, the team did not put it together.
Coaching is one possible reason. Absolutely. I think Hornachek has done a miserable job with Melo/Rose. He looks a good coach when KP/Lee play with the 2nd unit or the 2nd unit plays. He looks inept when the starters play. He tends to shuffle players out of roles too quickly. I do see flaws and fault with him.
Phil signing Noah was a miserable move, but outside of Noah, he got the team significant talent this year. The way O'Quinn and Willy have played, it erases the lack of impact Noah has had. We are getting 10$M a year type of production from O'Quinn and Willy when they make like a combined $6M. This offsets Noah's horrible contract and signing. After Noah, the team upgraded all it's weaker positions vs last year.
My own opinion is that Melo is just a bad fit with this group especially with Rose. I don't think Hornachek is the right coach for them. I think KP is lost in between especially when we play him at 4, he does have the same impact as when he's at 5. I think players know they can do more and want to do more but can not because of the way Melo/Rose play. To me the 3 main issues with the team are Melo, Rose, Horny, Just no mix. Hopefully next year we'll have a different set up as I can't see the team bring Melo, Rose and Horny all back.
Knicks have some big decisions to make. They can not go into another season in "win now around Melo" mode. It has proven to be a massive failure. If they do want to do it again around Melo, they have to get a coach who Melo respects and play a way where the team is built around an isolation heavy player. They can not play the same way they strive to play (Or Phil wants to) which is a Spurs model. Phil wants to build a Spurs model here, and he drafts international well and scouts n develops D leaguers into solid rotation guys just like Spurs do. The major difference is Spurs don't have ball stoppers or isolation heavy players. We do. You can't become Spurs like if you have Melo and Rose, Phil. He needs to make a call on this over the summer.
I have to agree with this post .. the Knicks had a better winning team at Phils arrival than any team Phil built in 3 seasons. And yes we could have receive 100 times more than what we got for Chandler/Shump/JR/and Felton. Felton has prove to be a decent backup PG on Mavs n Clippers better than all the starter PG Phil got for the Knicks.
Phil big mistake were announcing Steve Kerr as the Knicks head-coach, plus the resigning of Melo.
Im sure if Phil had no intention of resigning Melo in 2014 offseason, Phil would not have traded Tyson Chandler for little of nothing back. The resigning of Iso-Melo ego were a distraction on the court and in the locker-room for Knick teammates to equal hopeless success for the Knicks franchise.
The signing of Lopez was the best move Phil made in 2015 offseason, after the silly move of trading Tyson Chandler for nothing to have a 17 win season to draft KP whom were suppose to be Lopez backup center.
Not hiring a decent known experience big-man coach for the Knicks coaching-staff to develop KP into becoming a great backup to Lopez with inside/outside scoring shows more incompetence on Phil Jackson part.
The Knicks signing big-body PF Kyle O'Quinn the same season they signed Lopez made the Lopez signing great because the two bigmen inside talent would have complimented the starter lineup on both sides of the court.
Only a fool would not have notice the Knicks best two winning big-men on the roster during the 2015-16 season were Lopez & Quinn, who should have been tandem in the starter lineup having Melo on the wing at SF and D.Will as backup SF. The Knicks also had a great young developing 2nd unit in the 2015-16 season in PG-Grant, SG-Galloway, SF-D.Will, and Twin-Towers Seraphin & KP .... KP talent/skills were not a NBA starter in his rookie season nor has it improve to be a starter in KP 2nd NBA season.
nixluva wrote:BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! Rehashing this past stuff is pure nonsense. Who freaking cares about any of that now? IMO there's before KP and there's after KP!!! Anything before KP is MOOT! We've moved on and have a new focus beginning to develop.We've seen what came of trying to build around Melo and now it's time to prepare for the future. People need to get with the program!!! The young players seem to have responded to Hornacek positively. That's what matters most.
So what there responding for 2 or 3 quarters, they suck so bad in the 4th quarter, and that goes for the entire team and the coach. I couldn't believe rose had damn near a perfect game last night, melo took 13 shots giving other players the chance to shine, and they did nothing, and willy had 6 turnovers, but all I read is rose this and melo that as if they were the reason we keep losing.
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! Rehashing this past stuff is pure nonsense. Who freaking cares about any of that now? IMO there's before KP and there's after KP!!! Anything before KP is MOOT! We've moved on and have a new focus beginning to develop.We've seen what came of trying to build around Melo and now it's time to prepare for the future. People need to get with the program!!! The young players seem to have responded to Hornacek positively. That's what matters most.
So what there responding for 2 or 3 quarters, they suck so bad in the 4th quarter, and that goes for the entire team and the coach. I couldn't believe rose had damn near a perfect game last night, melo took 13 shots giving other players the chance to shine, and they did nothing, and willy had 6 turnovers, but all I read is rose this and melo that as if they were the reason we keep losing.
I still don't get what you're point is. Is it that the rest of the roster should make up for what Melo and Rose aren't doing to help the team win? Most nights in the NBA it's the team's best players that make the big difference between wins and losses. Guys like Harden and Westbrook don't even have a Robin to their Batman. Melo had enough talent to win games if he was able to help a team win, not by jacking shots but by helping the team in all the other facets, like passing and defense. It's kind of hard to explain away the poor +/- that Melo and Rose have.
Just look at the +/- in 4th quarters for the team:
PLAYERS GP MIN PTS FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT% REB AST STL BLK +/-
Kristaps Porzingis 53 8.8 5.1 1.7 3.7 46.0 0.6 1.4 40.0 1.1 1.4 79.7 2.0 0.3 0.1 1.4 1.9
Ron Baker 29 6.6 1.9 0.7 2.0 33.3 0.3 1.0 26.7 0.3 0.5 71.4 0.9 0.8 0.3 0.1 1.8
Joakim Noah 20 7.1 2.4 0.8 1.2 69.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.8 1.2 62.5 2.4 0.5 0.2 0.3 1.0
Brandon Jennings 55 8.4 3.5 1.1 2.8 38.8 0.6 1.5 39.8 0.7 0.9 78.8 1.0 1.6 0.3 0.0 0.9
Mindaugas Kuzminskas 41 5.4 1.9 0.6 1.4 46.4 0.3 0.7 37.9 0.4 0.5 84.2 0.6 0.3 0.1 0.1 0.9
Justin Holiday 61 6.8 2.7 0.9 2.2 41.7 0.4 1.1 38.6 0.4 0.5 81.3 0.9 0.5 0.3 0.1 0.7
Willy Hernangomez 40 6.5 3.1 1.3 2.2 59.1 0.0 0.1 25.0 0.5 0.6 78.3 2.5 0.4 0.2 0.2 0.5
Courtney Lee 48 7.3 2.5 0.9 1.9 47.3 0.3 0.8 35.0 0.3 0.4 84.2 0.8 0.4 0.2 0.1 0.5
Carmelo Anthony 55 7.2 4.3 1.4 3.7 37.9 0.5 1.5 35.0 1.0 1.2 80.6 1.3 0.5 0.3 0.1 0.2
Derrick Rose 48 7.8 4.8 1.9 3.9 48.4 0.0 0.2 18.2 1.0 1.2 82.5 1.1 1.1 0.1 0.0 0.0
Kyle O'Quinn 40 5.2 2.1 0.9 1.6 57.1 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.3 0.4 68.8 2.1 0.4 0.2 0.6 -0.4
Lance Thomas 26 7.9 2.2 0.7 2.2 33.9 0.2 0.6 37.5 0.5 0.5 92.3 1.5 0.3 0.2 0.0 -1.0
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612752/...
At some point one has to say Melo is both a detriment to winning while he racks up points. A mans heart cannot be measured when he signed a contract.
Rose is playing for rose.
Nalod wrote:At some point you have understand phil is not the coach and the on court talent has to be held accountable.
At some point one has to say Melo is both a detriment to winning while he racks up points. A mans heart cannot be measured when he signed a contract.Rose is playing for rose.
That it is in a nutshell.
Phil got the team talent. Maybe the first and second year the talent was questionable, but not this past season. This team was loaded with Melo, KP, Rose, Lee, Noah, Jennings, Thomas, O'Quinn, Willy. Come on we had enough to be a competitive .500 team at worst. The fact is many thought Rose wouldn't be healthy and based on that thought the team would win 38-40 games. Rose has been healthy and himself.
So this comes down to talent not meshing, coaching not mixing with talent. Phil's not the reason the team isn't doing well this season. In the past yes. He didn't get enough talent. This time he got more than enough talent. The team didn't want to play together enough on either end. I think it all comes back to the coaching and veteran star mix not working. Players like Rose need a coach like Thibs who will always be on them. Always be telling them what to do defensively. Who have a simplistic mind on offense. Rose is not a system basketball player. Melo is Melo. He has shown he can only do well in the NBA with a coach like Woodson, who lets him do whatever he wants on offense and focuses on the team's defense. I can't see Melo meshing with a D'Antoni or Hornachek who want to run a system and free flowing offense. Both have shown they can't fit with Melo.
It's sad it didn't work out, but maybe it's going to be the best longterm. Lets say we did well. Lets say things meshed between Horny and Rose/Melo and this team. Or lets say Phil hired Thibodeau. What was the end game? Say we make the playoffs as a 5th seed. Lose in round 1 or 2. Rose now goes out and commands a 100$M contract. Gets it from us. Melo's not going anywhere. KP is lost behind them longterm. We draft 20th or something like that in the draft. Now we're likely moving on from Rose, and Melo, and we're going to be drafting top 10 or so. We may have escaped trapping ourselves longterm to a team or bunch of players who may have been good enough to lead the team to the playoffs but not more than that.
crzymdups wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Phil could have gotten more for Shump/Smith/Chandler.
That I agree with.From what I understand, he wanted capspace and to not take on too many big contracts.
But definitely agree that he made mistakes there.However in 2016, if you compare rosters, we were clearly upgraded talent wise.
Rose/Jennings at PG
Lee/Holiday at SG
Melo/Kuz at SF
Porzingis/Thomas at PF
Noah/O'Quinn/Willy at CCome on tell me the 39 win team Phil inherited was better or more talented? No way, I much rather have the team he had put together to start this season.
Talent is not the issue with the team this current season. We are not contenders, but the talent was all there to be a playoff team. For whatever reason, that will be debatable probably all offseason, the team did not put it together.
Coaching is one possible reason. Absolutely. I think Hornachek has done a miserable job with Melo/Rose. He looks a good coach when KP/Lee play with the 2nd unit or the 2nd unit plays. He looks inept when the starters play. He tends to shuffle players out of roles too quickly. I do see flaws and fault with him.
Phil signing Noah was a miserable move, but outside of Noah, he got the team significant talent this year. The way O'Quinn and Willy have played, it erases the lack of impact Noah has had. We are getting 10$M a year type of production from O'Quinn and Willy when they make like a combined $6M. This offsets Noah's horrible contract and signing. After Noah, the team upgraded all it's weaker positions vs last year.
My own opinion is that Melo is just a bad fit with this group especially with Rose. I don't think Hornachek is the right coach for them. I think KP is lost in between especially when we play him at 4, he does have the same impact as when he's at 5. I think players know they can do more and want to do more but can not because of the way Melo/Rose play. To me the 3 main issues with the team are Melo, Rose, Horny, Just no mix. Hopefully next year we'll have a different set up as I can't see the team bring Melo, Rose and Horny all back.
Knicks have some big decisions to make. They can not go into another season in "win now around Melo" mode. It has proven to be a massive failure. If they do want to do it again around Melo, they have to get a coach who Melo respects and play a way where the team is built around an isolation heavy player. They can not play the same way they strive to play (Or Phil wants to) which is a Spurs model. Phil wants to build a Spurs model here, and he drafts international well and scouts n develops D leaguers into solid rotation guys just like Spurs do. The major difference is Spurs don't have ball stoppers or isolation heavy players. We do. You can't become Spurs like if you have Melo and Rose, Phil. He needs to make a call on this over the summer.
This is a good post. I agree completely.
The mystery is why this mix didn't work. The answer is some combination of Melo, Rose, Hornacek, and Phil.
I think we're all tired of the blame game, it's pointless. Hopefully Phil moves on from Rose (of all the trades he's made, I think Rose for Rubio would've been by far his best... I hope there's some chance of revisiting a sign and trade in the summer, but who really knows).
I think we do need to just move on from Melo at this point... but who the heck knows if Melo will see it that way. The best fit still seems to be the Clippers. Hopefully Melo is frustrated enough to just let it go this off-season... he only has one more year under contract (before his option year, at least). He has a home in LA, he can find plenty of business opportunities in LA, Lala should be able to get more TV work in LA. At this rate, I think it'll happen.
Once Melo and Rose are gone, I am fine trying to do a ground up transformation into a Spurs-type model. We have some building blocks there and more importantly we finally have all our picks for the foreseeable future (and for that, I do thank Phil). Go for a slow build. Phil has messed up when he's tried to acquire a veteran. He's done better with undrafted guards learning his system in Westchester and then coming to the big leagues - Galloway, Baker, Randle all look like better fits for what Phil wants to do than Jennings or Rose.
Anyway, hopefully we get a nice top 6 pick, it'd be amazing to jump up into the top 3 somehow. I agree with Briggs that they should try to find the Seth Curry types in FA. How much different would this season have been if the Knicks gave Seth Curry $5M instead of Jennings? And I'll cop to wanting to give Jennings a look, but man the wheels came off on Jennings after a solid first month.
The only thing I'll say is that I'm not sure Hornacek is the right coach going forward. But this season is not fair to judge him on. He should get all of next year. Heck, I'd be fine with him getting two more full years - we have the lotto picks. I really think we need high quality picks in the 2017, 2018, and 2019 draft to really build the depth you need to contend. Look at Boston - no real superstars, but a deep deep team that fits together and can match up pretty well with the Cavs and Warriors. That's what we should aim to build, then maybe try to sign a star or two with cap room. If we have a good young team like Boston, stars will come to NY. But we don't have that depth now. We really need a few years to build it up. Like Milwaukee is in the process of doing with Giannis, Brogdon, Parker, etc.
Both of these posts are awesome. Jeff deserves time. This year had mixed agendas. Win now but at the same time young players need development. There's no way to sugar coat it. Rose and Melo even if you like them underperformed relative to their contract. If you assume you got 30 mill of value but paid 40+ that's a huge hit. That extra 10 mill could equate to a max player rather than clee
Then you add Noah. Jeff had a tough job. If I were boss I'd give him more time w a more straight forward mission. Play the right way and accountability. The wins and points will take care of themselves
nyknickzingis wrote:However in 2016, if you compare rosters, we were clearly upgraded talent wise.
Coaching is one possible reason. Absolutely. I think Hornachek has done a miserable job with Melo/Rose. He looks a good coach when KP/Lee play with the 2nd unit or the 2nd unit plays. He looks inept when the starters play.This offsets Noah's horrible contract and signing.
My own opinion is that Melo is just a bad fit with this group especially with Rose. I don't think Hornachek is the right coach for them.
If they do want to do it again around Melo, they have to get a coach who Melo respects and play a way where the team is built around an isolation heavy player.
Disagree. Disagree. Disagree.
Phil Jackson traded a chance, this year, at making the 8th seed in the playoffs, in a chronically battered East, for the NEXT THREE YEARS of the Knicks future. And why does he care? Because he won't be here for the last two years of that horrible Noah deal, or the back two years when the Lee deal looks moderately ugly. He wanted to preserve his "legacy" somewhat by saying the Knicks at least made the playoffs under his watch, again, at the COST OF THE NEXT THREE SEASONS after this one. This franchise waited YEARS for Bargs and STATs ugly contracts to get off the books, to only IMMEDIATELY add more bad long term deals into the mix.
Coaching is not the problem. Melo is a coach killer. This is a place where coaches with options don't want to go, same reason coaches with options avoided the Lakers with Kobe Bryant ( selfish, shot jacking, petulant ball hog who would attack his coach in the press) Coach K was courted by Kobe, in which Coach K decided being a living God at Chapel Hill was worth more than dealing with Kobe for even one season. Hornacek can coach players who can be coached, he can't operate with selfish guys who won't play basic team basketball. You could build a super coach, using parts of John Wooden and Chuck Daly and throw in some Bill Walsh, and form him like the Cobra empire built Serpentor in GI JOE and you would not create a coach who can change Melo into a team player.
NOTHING offsets Noah's bad contract. It's a bad deal and will hurt this team. Period. It's also a byproduct of trading for Derrick Rose, another bad deal.
Melo is a BAD FIT for just about any franchise. No coach is the right coach for him. You cannot have a PF who hogs the ball and makes such a huge dent into a teams overall cap who doesn't play defense and be a contender, much less a regular playoff team. There is a finite amount of cap space on each team to use and you simply cannot built the parts with the resources and cap left ( guys who can defend the rim, guys who can defend the wing, a 3rd PG, a bench unit worth having, depth, etc) From a team building and resource management perspective, it's just not possible under the current CBA. Charles Barkley said it best, they keep getting rid of the guys around you, eventually, you have to come to terms that the team poison is you. Because you are the only one left.
"Respect" is such a bizarre and sad buzzword I hear about NBA "star" players and their coaches. He's not going to play hard if he doesn't respect you. He's not going to play defense if he doesn't respect you. He's not going to play team ball if he doesn't respect you.
NO, HE'S NOT GOING TO DO THOSE THINGS BECAUSE HE DOES NOT RESPECT HIMSELF.
HE
DOES
NOT
RESPECT
HIMSELF
A player worthy of being called a franchise player, plays the game THE RIGHT WAY, because he's A PROFESSIONAL. Win or lose, he PLAYS THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY. He's playing team basketball and sacrificing for the greater good of winning and the team.
You can't draw blood from a stone, you can't get a guy to play the game with RESPECT if he doesn't have any respect for anyone and doesn't even have respect for himself.
The problem is not the coaching, the problem is Melo is selfish and petty and petulant and doesn't care about the team or winning. He did a magazine spread where he says as much, talking about his branding and wanting to be a celebrity icon. How much more obvious does he have to do to make it for some guys here?
The way Melo plays is a DISGRACE. Wearing a Knicks jersey should mother f@@king mean something. It should mean dignity, honor, commitment, leadership, devotion to a team and to winning. He does not play in a way to deserve to even wear the jersey. And at minimum, he does not deserve to have people here rationalize his happy horsesh!t and make excuses for his choice to not give one damn about this team.
Personally, I REFUSE to set the bar so damn low on the bare minimum anyone should expect from a players conduct and effort for our BELOVED Knicks to make excuses for some douchebag. Jesus H Christ, have some dignity. Accepting a player who cares as little as Melo is undignified as Knicks fans.
The way Melo plays is a DISGRACE. Wearing a Knicks jersey should mother f@@king mean something. It should mean dignity, honor, commitment, leadership, devotion to a team and to winning.
No just true of the knicks Jersey, but to "winning"......
Its a nice thought. For way too long wearing a knicks jersey means "Overpayment, enabled behavior, Sexual harrassment, and starphuching".
smackeddog wrote:I don't hate Hornacek, but not hiring Thibs was the move I hate the most out of Phil's tenure here. He wanted to come here, We have Rose and Noah, Melo wanted him, we needed to become better defensively, and he would have had us committed to playing the style Knick fans love. He's finally getting the Twolves to buy in and start playing good defense the last 10 games, I would have loved to have had him for our coach. Hornacek just seems like a eager to please kid in comparison.
Totally different styles of coaching but you can be like Horny and be successful. People laughed at Houston for bringing in MDA and now they're not laughing anymore.
Our raggedy group of undrafted misfits seems to be of higher value.
Tyus Jones? Picked 5th???
He is still only 20, and playing better the last few weeks but they took Dunn the next draft instead giving this kid more time. Dunn is older, and Jones is now playing better.
Why would Minny have wanted Rose? Just for this year?
Thibs wanted to be here. Didn't every coach hired also want to "be here"??
And if Thibs was so great with all these ex bulls, why didn't they just stay together?
Rose MVP year bulls had leagues best record and thibs did a great job, but they faded out from over use that year? Miami was a juggernut so nothing to be ashamed about, but Thibs was know to fry his guys.
We knick fans want guys that did good in the past, pay up, and bring them here. We do it over and over again.
I'd say if Mills was just running things, then Thibs would have been good pick. Thibs is very intense and a bit of a control freak. Phil has his ways, good or bad and he needs a coach to work with him. Given Phil's strength was as a coach, there was a certain type of person and relationship he was looking for.
nyknickzingis wrote:Nalod wrote:At some point you have understand phil is not the coach and the on court talent has to be held accountable.
At some point one has to say Melo is both a detriment to winning while he racks up points. A mans heart cannot be measured when he signed a contract.Rose is playing for rose.
That it is in a nutshell.
Phil got the team talent. Maybe the first and second year the talent was questionable, but not this past season. This team was loaded with Melo, KP, Rose, Lee, Noah, Jennings, Thomas, O'Quinn, Willy. Come on we had enough to be a competitive .500 team at worst. The fact is many thought Rose wouldn't be healthy and based on that thought the team would win 38-40 games. Rose has been healthy and himself.
The 9 players u mention above were never put in a Knicks game rotation ..
Plus Phil had a lot to do with Fisher/Rambis/and Horn coaching for reason of a inexperienced raw KP being in the starter lineup. Plus for success veteran players belong in the starter lineup when u have a tandem of isolation players in Melo & Rose type of offense in a lineup .. our starter lineup should have been "Noah/Quinn/Melo/Sasha/Rose" our 2nd unit lineup "Jennings/Lee/Holiday/Willie/KP". Why?
The Knicks started the 2016-17 season with 10 new players added to the roster, which mean the Knicks should have started the season using a 11 man rotation having 2 unit lineup throughout their first 25 games to get players chemistry n confidence in teammates.
The Knicks started the season coaching without team discipline, without a team plan on offense/defense (man on Man are a street-ball plan), Team balling were not in the Knicks performance the results has the Knicks being the 8th team in the league to lose their 40th game.
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! Rehashing this past stuff is pure nonsense. Who freaking cares about any of that now? IMO there's before KP and there's after KP!!! Anything before KP is MOOT! We've moved on and have a new focus beginning to develop.We've seen what came of trying to build around Melo and now it's time to prepare for the future. People need to get with the program!!! The young players seem to have responded to Hornacek positively. That's what matters most.
So what there responding for 2 or 3 quarters, they suck so bad in the 4th quarter, and that goes for the entire team and the coach. I couldn't believe rose had damn near a perfect game last night, melo took 13 shots giving other players the chance to shine, and they did nothing, and willy had 6 turnovers, but all I read is rose this and melo that as if they were the reason we keep losing.
I still don't get what you're point is. Is it that the rest of the roster should make up for what Melo and Rose aren't doing to help the team win? Most nights in the NBA it's the team's best players that make the big difference between wins and losses. Guys like Harden and Westbrook don't even have a Robin to their Batman. Melo had enough talent to win games if he was able to help a team win, not by jacking shots but by helping the team in all the other facets, like passing and defense. It's kind of hard to explain away the poor +/- that Melo and Rose have.Just look at the +/- in 4th quarters for the team:
PLAYERS GP MIN PTS FGM FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% FTM FTA FT% REB AST STL BLK +/-
Kristaps Porzingis 53 8.8 5.1 1.7 3.7 46.0 0.6 1.4 40.0 1.1 1.4 79.7 2.0 0.3 0.1 1.4 1.9
Ron Baker 29 6.6 1.9 0.7 2.0 33.3 0.3 1.0 26.7 0.3 0.5 71.4 0.9 0.8 0.3 0.1 1.8
Joakim Noah 20 7.1 2.4 0.8 1.2 69.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.8 1.2 62.5 2.4 0.5 0.2 0.3 1.0
Brandon Jennings 55 8.4 3.5 1.1 2.8 38.8 0.6 1.5 39.8 0.7 0.9 78.8 1.0 1.6 0.3 0.0 0.9
Mindaugas Kuzminskas 41 5.4 1.9 0.6 1.4 46.4 0.3 0.7 37.9 0.4 0.5 84.2 0.6 0.3 0.1 0.1 0.9
Justin Holiday 61 6.8 2.7 0.9 2.2 41.7 0.4 1.1 38.6 0.4 0.5 81.3 0.9 0.5 0.3 0.1 0.7
Willy Hernangomez 40 6.5 3.1 1.3 2.2 59.1 0.0 0.1 25.0 0.5 0.6 78.3 2.5 0.4 0.2 0.2 0.5
Courtney Lee 48 7.3 2.5 0.9 1.9 47.3 0.3 0.8 35.0 0.3 0.4 84.2 0.8 0.4 0.2 0.1 0.5
Carmelo Anthony 55 7.2 4.3 1.4 3.7 37.9 0.5 1.5 35.0 1.0 1.2 80.6 1.3 0.5 0.3 0.1 0.2
Derrick Rose 48 7.8 4.8 1.9 3.9 48.4 0.0 0.2 18.2 1.0 1.2 82.5 1.1 1.1 0.1 0.0 0.0
Kyle O'Quinn 40 5.2 2.1 0.9 1.6 57.1 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.3 0.4 68.8 2.1 0.4 0.2 0.6 -0.4
Lance Thomas 26 7.9 2.2 0.7 2.2 33.9 0.2 0.6 37.5 0.5 0.5 92.3 1.5 0.3 0.2 0.0 -1.0
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612752/...
Thanks Nix for the 4th quarter team +/- stat sheet .. it speaks volume on our finishing performance as a team without any successful effort nor any coaching plan for the win
KP is unable to stay with quick athletic 4's and Willy is not a good anchor, Melo is horrible as a 3 defensively. We showed it in the last 2 games. We cannot defend with this lineup. Why are we playing this lineup ahead of KP/Melo/Thomas lineup that was showing it could compete with Golden Sate?
I like Willy a ton, he's one of faves on the team, but his role should be off a Vucevic/Kanter off the bench. Goood low post scoring big who comes off the bench, not particularly good at defending the rim.
Horny needs to be far more consistent next year with his rotations. I hated his constant changing of roles this year.