Knicks · The most daming quote I've seen from the Knicks all year (from KP) (page 5)
martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Positionally KP is a player who has not shown his defined position yet. The team has protected him because of his lack of power to play 5 because they don't want him being pushed around under the basket. So they've done the right thing. It has nothing to do with the Triangle, when KP came to the league it was clear his lack of power would hinder him from playing 5 full time. He has to add weight, but strength base. When he does that he want get rooted out or pushed around in the post.I also want to see the team play with some athletic defensive wing players around KP/Willy. We have seen some great defense in lineups with KP at 4. Last season he played 4 all season as a starter and the defense was much better. RoLo did a good job protecting the rim and our defense was better as a team. This season not the case at all.
So I think it comes down to many factors. Not about Triangle alone.
For wins, we should play KP/Melo/Thomas.
For the current stretch, playing Willy/KP/Melo is ok, because the season is over from a W-L perspective.Agree with most. Problem going forward is that Willy is a better 5 than KP. And KP cant defend stretch 4's. It was a joke when he was guarding Harris the other night. KP is obviously a much bigger impact on offense but where do you start him if your main goal is to have a better defensive unit? And as good as Willy can be, do you leave him as a back up to KP long term?
This is not a forgone conclusion is it? I don't know too many 2 second year players - especially with the underdeveloped body that KP has - that are complete defenders. Took Bruce Bowen like 10 years in the league before he was good. Was Kobe good in his first 2 years? No he was a jump shooting punk. Draymond Green was even WORSE than KP in all aspects of his game in his first 2 years than KP.
Patience and watch it grow.
Ofcourse he can improve. But to say a 7'3 guy will work into being able to cover the new type of stretch 4's in the league is, at best, being hopeful. Same as saying a guy that weighs 220 can cover and rebound over the true centers in the league. And we are both leaving out an important variable, to this, NOAH. if anyone thinks Phil is going to bench one of his big signings, they are in for a surprise.
HofstraBBall wrote:martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Positionally KP is a player who has not shown his defined position yet. The team has protected him because of his lack of power to play 5 because they don't want him being pushed around under the basket. So they've done the right thing. It has nothing to do with the Triangle, when KP came to the league it was clear his lack of power would hinder him from playing 5 full time. He has to add weight, but strength base. When he does that he want get rooted out or pushed around in the post.I also want to see the team play with some athletic defensive wing players around KP/Willy. We have seen some great defense in lineups with KP at 4. Last season he played 4 all season as a starter and the defense was much better. RoLo did a good job protecting the rim and our defense was better as a team. This season not the case at all.
So I think it comes down to many factors. Not about Triangle alone.
For wins, we should play KP/Melo/Thomas.
For the current stretch, playing Willy/KP/Melo is ok, because the season is over from a W-L perspective.Agree with most. Problem going forward is that Willy is a better 5 than KP. And KP cant defend stretch 4's. It was a joke when he was guarding Harris the other night. KP is obviously a much bigger impact on offense but where do you start him if your main goal is to have a better defensive unit? And as good as Willy can be, do you leave him as a back up to KP long term?
This is not a forgone conclusion is it? I don't know too many 2 second year players - especially with the underdeveloped body that KP has - that are complete defenders. Took Bruce Bowen like 10 years in the league before he was good. Was Kobe good in his first 2 years? No he was a jump shooting punk. Draymond Green was even WORSE than KP in all aspects of his game in his first 2 years than KP.
Patience and watch it grow.
Ofcourse he can improve. But to say a 7'3 guy will work into being able to cover the new type of stretch 4's in the league is, at best, being hopeful. Same as saying a guy that weighs 220 can cover and rebound over the true centers in the league. And we are both leaving out an important variable, to this, NOAH. if anyone thinks Phil is going to bench one of his big signings, they are in for a surprise.
And you can also turn this around, would those 4s be able to cover a 7'3 guy in a few years, especially after he develops Dirk-like moves? Who are these stretch 4s that start that we are worried about? They should worry about KP.
nyknickzingis wrote:stanleybostitch wrote:martin wrote:
My guess is because that's what everyone has talked about: the Triangle and how bad it is, that's the emphasis, whereas the trend there seems to be getting better. And you are right, the defense is what's poor for the Knicks.There are so many components to making a good team and executing it. Talent, health, cohesion, planning and commitment to it. How long does it take to get from piss poor to playoffs?
2014-15 was an obvious tear down year. You had Gallo and Larkin starting, LT and Bargs and Shved too. That's rock bottom. You get KP for that.
Unfortunately the Knicks didn't have a pick after the next year.
What is the expectation of a team that has 1 pick in 3 years? Seattle/OKC took 2 full years of Durant and Westbrook - 2 all world guys before they got out of the 30 win range.
Let's look at GS. Curry's first year was 2009-2010. 26 Wins. (2008-2009 they got 29 wins to GET the curry pick). 2010-2011 was a 36 win season and netted Thompson. 2011-12 they win 23 games. At this point Knicks fans would have traded both Curry and Thompson many times over. The next year they finally got out of the below .500 range for 47 wins (that was the year Green had an eFG% of .354 and averaged 2.9PPG on 13MPG - he gets traded by Knicks fans too).
Essentially they had to go through 4 years of bad play to lay a foundation of team philosophy (and one could argue that didn't really kick in until 2 years after that), the right players, the right coach, etc.
This shit takes time.
Martin spot on. Patience wins the day.
Martin hit a homerun with this post.
None of those teams had a All star already on it, they had no veterans, they suffered from lack of talent, and an injured curry, and they certainly didn't have to deal with
Report: Knicks players have 'tuned out' Hornacek
http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1255024...
Were headed for our 4th coach in 4 yrs
martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Positionally KP is a player who has not shown his defined position yet. The team has protected him because of his lack of power to play 5 because they don't want him being pushed around under the basket. So they've done the right thing. It has nothing to do with the Triangle, when KP came to the league it was clear his lack of power would hinder him from playing 5 full time. He has to add weight, but strength base. When he does that he want get rooted out or pushed around in the post.I also want to see the team play with some athletic defensive wing players around KP/Willy. We have seen some great defense in lineups with KP at 4. Last season he played 4 all season as a starter and the defense was much better. RoLo did a good job protecting the rim and our defense was better as a team. This season not the case at all.
So I think it comes down to many factors. Not about Triangle alone.
For wins, we should play KP/Melo/Thomas.
For the current stretch, playing Willy/KP/Melo is ok, because the season is over from a W-L perspective.Agree with most. Problem going forward is that Willy is a better 5 than KP. And KP cant defend stretch 4's. It was a joke when he was guarding Harris the other night. KP is obviously a much bigger impact on offense but where do you start him if your main goal is to have a better defensive unit? And as good as Willy can be, do you leave him as a back up to KP long term?
This is not a forgone conclusion is it? I don't know too many 2 second year players - especially with the underdeveloped body that KP has - that are complete defenders. Took Bruce Bowen like 10 years in the league before he was good. Was Kobe good in his first 2 years? No he was a jump shooting punk. Draymond Green was even WORSE than KP in all aspects of his game in his first 2 years than KP.
Patience and watch it grow.
Ofcourse he can improve. But to say a 7'3 guy will work into being able to cover the new type of stretch 4's in the league is, at best, being hopeful. Same as saying a guy that weighs 220 can cover and rebound over the true centers in the league. And we are both leaving out an important variable, to this, NOAH. if anyone thinks Phil is going to bench one of his big signings, they are in for a surprise.
And you can also turn this around, would those 4s be able to cover a 7'3 guy in a few years, especially after he develops Dirk-like moves? Who are these stretch 4s that start that we are worried about? They should worry about KP.
Anyone with a good 3pt. shot or that is a quick 4. So many. As that is what the league has become? Harris just the other night. Torched him on offense and KP came down to other end and shot soft 3pt. shots. Did not impose his size inside at all. Dirk Like moves? If he does, he would be a Hall of Famer. My point all year.
HofstraBBall wrote:martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:martin wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Positionally KP is a player who has not shown his defined position yet. The team has protected him because of his lack of power to play 5 because they don't want him being pushed around under the basket. So they've done the right thing. It has nothing to do with the Triangle, when KP came to the league it was clear his lack of power would hinder him from playing 5 full time. He has to add weight, but strength base. When he does that he want get rooted out or pushed around in the post.I also want to see the team play with some athletic defensive wing players around KP/Willy. We have seen some great defense in lineups with KP at 4. Last season he played 4 all season as a starter and the defense was much better. RoLo did a good job protecting the rim and our defense was better as a team. This season not the case at all.
So I think it comes down to many factors. Not about Triangle alone.
For wins, we should play KP/Melo/Thomas.
For the current stretch, playing Willy/KP/Melo is ok, because the season is over from a W-L perspective.Agree with most. Problem going forward is that Willy is a better 5 than KP. And KP cant defend stretch 4's. It was a joke when he was guarding Harris the other night. KP is obviously a much bigger impact on offense but where do you start him if your main goal is to have a better defensive unit? And as good as Willy can be, do you leave him as a back up to KP long term?
This is not a forgone conclusion is it? I don't know too many 2 second year players - especially with the underdeveloped body that KP has - that are complete defenders. Took Bruce Bowen like 10 years in the league before he was good. Was Kobe good in his first 2 years? No he was a jump shooting punk. Draymond Green was even WORSE than KP in all aspects of his game in his first 2 years than KP.
Patience and watch it grow.
Ofcourse he can improve. But to say a 7'3 guy will work into being able to cover the new type of stretch 4's in the league is, at best, being hopeful. Same as saying a guy that weighs 220 can cover and rebound over the true centers in the league. And we are both leaving out an important variable, to this, NOAH. if anyone thinks Phil is going to bench one of his big signings, they are in for a surprise.
And you can also turn this around, would those 4s be able to cover a 7'3 guy in a few years, especially after he develops Dirk-like moves? Who are these stretch 4s that start that we are worried about? They should worry about KP.
Anyone with a good 3pt. shot or that is a quick 4. So many. As that is what the league has become? Harris just the other night. Torched him on offense and KP came down to other end and shot soft 3pt. shots. Did not impose his size inside at all. Dirk Like moves? If he does, he would be a Hall of Famer. My point all year.
KP is still learning and filling out his body. KP naturally wants to defend the rim. The real issue is that we need more options at SF and PF that can defend multiple positions. We need better Defense at PG as well. The Harris thing is the fault of the coaching staff.
The way to look at KP isn't necessarily how he looks now. He's going to mature, develop and get stronger. He's a hard worker and he WANTS to be great!!! He's not satisfied with just being OK.
I think what we should do is use KP similar to how Pau Gasol was used with Phil Jackson as his coach. Start at 4, for short minutes, close the half and rest of the game at 5. Maybe 15 minutes at 4, about 20 at 5. This allows Willy to play at 5 as well and make his mark, and it would mean we would need a realible 4 that could play minutes for us, Maybe Lance Thomas and Kuz could help there as they are big enough to play 4.
nyknickzingis wrote:I agree with Hof that defending the 4 will always place KP in a tough spot. He'll need to go out and play on the perimeter against guys with much quicker blow by speed, and he'll be leaving the paint area where he is already elite at protecting the basket.I disagree. He usually gets hurt by fast 4s when he's out of position. KP sags too far off his man looking to help. When his guy gets the ball he is not in position to play defense and either gets burned giving up an open look at 3 or he's rushing out to challenge that shot and his guy puts it on the floor. Basketball 101.I think what we should do is use KP similar to how Pau Gasol was used with Phil Jackson as his coach. Start at 4, for short minutes, close the half and rest of the game at 5. Maybe 15 minutes at 4, about 20 at 5. This allows Willy to play at 5 as well and make his mark, and it would mean we would need a realible 4 that could play minutes for us, Maybe Lance Thomas and Kuz could help there as they are big enough to play 4.
The whole point in having a stretch 4 is that it pulls your PF out of the paint. KP has to get out of the paint and guard his guy. Its really that simple. A guy who was very good at this was Tyson Chandler. When he got stuck on switches or pulled out of the paint he came out and defended his guy.
KP just needs to learn to trust him teammates and play his role. He's 21. He will get there.