Knicks · Aaraton article (Vertical) It's Time For Phil Jackson to Go All In Or Leave The Knicks (page 2)
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franco12 wrote:how many GMs in the last 3 years have just about turned their roster completely over 3x in that same span? Gone through 2 coaches? And then potentially undermined the second coach by insisting they run an offense that no other pro team runs?
These 3 arguments don't make sense to me.
how many GMs in the last 3 years have just about turned their roster completely over 3x in that same span?
The opposite of what you are suggesting is to keep the players that you have, which is insane. The Knicks maybe could have kept Shump, JRSmith, Tyson.... to what end? Another 35-40 season? Extend them and then what? More mediocre play? To get better as a team, you need to lose to get a high draft pick and win big and grow thru the playoffs, the middle ground is where teams go to die.
And after you burn the team down, ie the first year (Gallo, Shved, Bargs, LT, Larkin starting!), you need to up the talent level every year. The Knicks' talent level every year has increased but they certainly have NOT turned into wins. In hindsight, that's the best of both worlds when you have draft picks but the Knicks have not. Hopefully this year will get us another couple of players along the likes of KP and Willy.
So yes, turning over the roster and getting better talent is a GOOD thing when you are a bad team.
Gone through 2 coaches?
Sometimes you get Steve Kerr and sometimes you get Derek Fisher. Sometimes you get Brad Stevens and sometimes you get Fred Hoiberg. When you get someone who you are simpatico with long term, you stick with that coach.
And then potentially undermined the second coach by insisting they run an offense that no other pro team runs?
Phil has been clear over and over and over again, all he wants is system ball, same thing as Spurs and lots of other teams do. Lots of teams use elements of the Triangle. What's wrong with that?
He has cut players, and bought them back when they do what he wants.
Only difference is Pop/Buford have a hell of track record.
nixluva wrote:I bet the "players" that hate him are like Melo and Rose... SMDH! Can't wait for this season to be over so we can talk about who we might draft and sign this summer and if Melo waived his NTC!
It's amazing how you can read that article and walk away thinking melo and rose is the problem, you've become obsess with it, like those other 2 clowns(who no longer post here).
Last season when I was ripping fisher (before I knew the inside scoop) you said the same dumb mess your saying now about JH, that he's ok with phils taking over his practices and throwing his system in a do it-or-your-fired sort of way.
I can go pull all your post in September where you said this was phil last go around, how this team is talented enough to win 50 games, Or in a early december game threads when your questioning what the hell is JH running.
You know how you sound, the car is dark blue,everbody is saying it's dark blue, it says it's dark blue on the paper work, but you try to convince the world the car is black and no one knows what the hell their talking about but you..
nyknickzingis wrote:The point is, no GM has shown to be in Phil's spot with 1 draft pick in 3 years and turned a lottery team with Melo, vets .... into a young team that contends or even a veteran team that contends.Other than the Nets I can't think of other clubs that have made mistakes with picks like the Knicks. But in regards to a gm that won and improved the Knicks during a three year stretch with only one first round pick, Glen Grunwald did it. The only guy drafted during that three year span when he was in place was Shump.Phil's made mistakes. I rate him as an ok executive. He is not Isiah bad though. He isn't even as bad as Walsh was, because Walsh made many bad longterm hurting moves (Although Dolan may have influenced there).
Phil may have gotten the Knicks the 2nd best rookie last year and the 2nd best rookie this year. If we keep drafting well, in 2 years the franchise will be in a very good place. We took some short term riks and all have backfired. Nothing has worked in the short term. However longrun we look good. Now it's time to put together a good Melo trade. Sort of like what the Celtics did with Paul Pierce/KG when they began their rebuild.
Nalod wrote:Pop is brutal on players who don't play in the system. They are just plain made to sit or become gone.they have also had their best players and their locker room leaders buy in. Tony Parker has never been a good defende, but his limitations arent effort, they are physical. Parker plays his role on D very well because he plays hard there. Allan Houston played his role D very well because he played hard there. Neither guys were/are good defender but could play hard and do their job. The two leader/vets we have are Melo and Rose. Two guys who will play well on D in crunch time, but for the rest of the game their defense simply lacks effort. We get blown out team after team in the first qtr.
He has cut players, and bought them back when they do what he wants.
Only difference is Pop/Buford have a hell of track record.
Good systems start with players that play their role the whole time they are out there. Our young players will be fine. Lee, Lance and Noah will be excellent veterans. The ball stoppers gotta go. Letting Rose/Melo go for pennies will not make us better right away. That is a lot of firepower. It will allow us to start building and coaching the right way.
yellowboy90 wrote:Why in the world would a smart GM think a terrible offensive player and defensive player (rose) would be a good fit? Why does Phil continue to bring in terrible point guard who don't play a lick of defense that are also injury risks? Then again who needs pgs that play defense.
He is not terrible. He is just a bad fit. The hope was that Rose would adjust and so would Melo. They would play like vets. Transform. Phil believes in transformation and not transactional management. He believes in giving players a chance to transform. Rose is a great attacking guard, and scores at ease in the paint. Last year this was a big weakness for us. So much whining about Calderon not being able to get into the paint and score. Well Rose did that ten fold. Jose's defense wasn't good. We went from Jose freaking Calderon, who is now OUT OF THE LEAGUE virtually. He got waived by the Lakers and caught on as a third string PG. That was our starter. We needed an upgrade and Phil got one in Rose. Rose and Melo just didn't work out. It happens. He also got Noah, thinking that Rose/Noah's chemistry would reincarnate and facilitate the adjustment for Rose. It did not. Noah was never healthy and Rose/Melo never played well together.
It's life in the NBA. You make moves, some work, some don't. The important thing is to try to get better and not accept mediocrity. I appreciate the team went for a run with Melo/KP/Rose/Lee/Noah/Jennings/Willy/Thomas. If things had worked out, we would have been a top 5 team in the East.
To have things work out we needed some things to happen that did not
Melo to lower his usage rate and move the ball
Rose to pass more
KP to improve his defense more than he has and also improve his post game on offense
Noah to be healthy
Lots of things just didn't happen. But I am not upset at all that we went for a playoff run, seeing that we didn't lose longterm talent or draft picks. We lost Grant, but gained Holiday and a 2nd round pick. I think we'll be all right. We can let Rose walk, move O'Quinn to a team in a salary dump for a second round pick, and get around $30 M in capspace for the summer, while adding a lottery pick to KP and Willy.
We need to hit a homerun with our draft picks, no doubt about it. No Michael Sweetney, Balkman, or Jordan Hill. No Channing Frye. We need star potential starters.
1. Get rid of players that did not match his blueprint. Get rid of bad contracts.
2. Get players in free agency that he thinks will help the team be competitive.
3. Get young players via free agency, trades and the draft that has potential.
I think with the exception of Fisher, Noah, Rose and Jenkins..he has done a great job. We have a future superstar in KP. We have a cornerstone PF/C in Willy. We have young rotation players like Kuz, Baker, Randle and Holiday. We have young players with potential like Dr. Crash 2.0 and N'Dour. We have rotation vet players like KOQ, CLee and LT.
Really, we are a PG and Melo's acceptance that he is no longer the primary option away from being really good.
nyknickzingis wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Why in the world would a smart GM think a terrible offensive player and defensive player (rose) would be a good fit? Why does Phil continue to bring in terrible point guard who don't play a lick of defense that are also injury risks? Then again who needs pgs that play defense.
He is not terrible. He is just a bad fit. The hope was that Rose would adjust and so would Melo. They would play like vets. Transform. Phil believes in transformation and not transactional management. He believes in giving players a chance to transform. Rose is a great attacking guard, and scores at ease in the paint. Last year this was a big weakness for us. So much whining about Calderon not being able to get into the paint and score. Well Rose did that ten fold. Jose's defense wasn't good. We went from Jose freaking Calderon, who is now OUT OF THE LEAGUE virtually. He got waived by the Lakers and caught on as a third string PG. That was our starter. We needed an upgrade and Phil got one in Rose. Rose and Melo just didn't work out. It happens. He also got Noah, thinking that Rose/Noah's chemistry would reincarnate and facilitate the adjustment for Rose. It did not. Noah was never healthy and Rose/Melo never played well together.It's life in the NBA. You make moves, some work, some don't. The important thing is to try to get better and not accept mediocrity. I appreciate the team went for a run with Melo/KP/Rose/Lee/Noah/Jennings/Willy/Thomas. If things had worked out, we would have been a top 5 team in the East.
To have things work out we needed some things to happen that did not
Melo to lower his usage rate and move the ball
Rose to pass more
KP to improve his defense more than he has and also improve his post game on offense
Noah to be healthyLots of things just didn't happen. But I am not upset at all that we went for a playoff run, seeing that we didn't lose longterm talent or draft picks. We lost Grant, but gained Holiday and a 2nd round pick. I think we'll be all right. We can let Rose walk, move O'Quinn to a team in a salary dump for a second round pick, and get around $30 M in capspace for the summer, while adding a lottery pick to KP and Willy.
We need to hit a homerun with our draft picks, no doubt about it. No Michael Sweetney, Balkman, or Jordan Hill. No Channing Frye. We need star potential starters.
The triangle transformation theory is the problem. You can't continue to bring in flawed players and think your magical triangle dust will fix them. Maybe a coach but a President has to think bigger. You can't just get a good player at a decent price if he is old. You need to factor that into the type of deal that you give a player.
You say the didn't loose long-term talent but Grant is a long-term talent that has more promise than Holiday. He is also going to cost less than Holiday and who knows if the low level second round pick will amount to anything but another Labarie/Thanasis. The Knicks would've had more space if they didn't trade for Monta Ellis 2.0. If he wanted to take a chance on Rose that would've been fine but you do not give up assets for flawed players with injuries issues especially when their team is tired of them.
Also, I know you like Rose but the guy is really trash and will likely never fit in unless he becomes a point guard. I said lastbyeaf I'd rather keep Wroten than Rose because Rose is washed up and I thought Wroten was beyond awful. The difference was price.
yellowboy90 wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Why in the world would a smart GM think a terrible offensive player and defensive player (rose) would be a good fit? Why does Phil continue to bring in terrible point guard who don't play a lick of defense that are also injury risks? Then again who needs pgs that play defense.
He is not terrible. He is just a bad fit. The hope was that Rose would adjust and so would Melo. They would play like vets. Transform. Phil believes in transformation and not transactional management. He believes in giving players a chance to transform. Rose is a great attacking guard, and scores at ease in the paint. Last year this was a big weakness for us. So much whining about Calderon not being able to get into the paint and score. Well Rose did that ten fold. Jose's defense wasn't good. We went from Jose freaking Calderon, who is now OUT OF THE LEAGUE virtually. He got waived by the Lakers and caught on as a third string PG. That was our starter. We needed an upgrade and Phil got one in Rose. Rose and Melo just didn't work out. It happens. He also got Noah, thinking that Rose/Noah's chemistry would reincarnate and facilitate the adjustment for Rose. It did not. Noah was never healthy and Rose/Melo never played well together.It's life in the NBA. You make moves, some work, some don't. The important thing is to try to get better and not accept mediocrity. I appreciate the team went for a run with Melo/KP/Rose/Lee/Noah/Jennings/Willy/Thomas. If things had worked out, we would have been a top 5 team in the East.
To have things work out we needed some things to happen that did not
Melo to lower his usage rate and move the ball
Rose to pass more
KP to improve his defense more than he has and also improve his post game on offense
Noah to be healthyLots of things just didn't happen. But I am not upset at all that we went for a playoff run, seeing that we didn't lose longterm talent or draft picks. We lost Grant, but gained Holiday and a 2nd round pick. I think we'll be all right. We can let Rose walk, move O'Quinn to a team in a salary dump for a second round pick, and get around $30 M in capspace for the summer, while adding a lottery pick to KP and Willy.
We need to hit a homerun with our draft picks, no doubt about it. No Michael Sweetney, Balkman, or Jordan Hill. No Channing Frye. We need star potential starters.
The triangle transformation theory is the problem. You can't continue to bring in flawed players and think your magical triangle dust will fix them. Maybe a coach but a President has to think bigger. You can't just get a good player at a decent price if he is old. You need to factor that into the type of deal that you give a player.
You say the didn't loose long-term talent but Grant is a long-term talent that has more promise than Holiday. He is also going to cost less than Holiday and who knows if the low level second round pick will amount to anything but another Labarie/Thanasis. The Knicks would've had more space if they didn't trade for Monta Ellis 2.0. If he wanted to take a chance on Rose that would've been fine but you do not give up assets for flawed players with injuries issues especially when their team is tired of them.
Also, I know you like Rose but the guy is really trash and will likely never fit in unless he becomes a point guard. I said lastbyeaf I'd rather keep Wroten than Rose because Rose is washed up and I thought Wroten was beyond awful. The difference was price.
Rose seems to be a better fit when baker is on the floor with him. I thought when they got rose they would nix the triangle because no one with a avg IQ is going to be a fit for that system.