Knicks · Is this season worse than the 2013-14 season? (page 2)

TripleThreat wrote:

EnySpree wrote:This is a rebuild

What's happening is not a rebuild.

A rebuild would have required

A) Phil Jackson immediately hiring a GM, a young guy with real front office experience from a winning franchise like the Spurs or Warriors with a possible long term future ahead of him, someone who had established relationships with officials, agents, scouts, sponsors, other front officer people, etc with some background in analytics and then Jackson would take a ceremonial role like Jerry West took with the Warriors

B) Trade Melo upon entry to the franchise

C) Trade Chandler, JR Smith and Shumpert for whatever you could get

D) Tank at every instance where it would be beneficial and practical

E) Avoid short term moves that might look good for marketing but bad for the long term outlook of the franchise

That would have been a "rebuild" and if the Knicks did it, would be in a better place for it.

Jackson has hurt this franchise and hurt it very badly. No, he's not Zeke, but some people want to ride the crappy reasoning that those are the only two possible outcomes, Jackson or something so horrible and worse that Jackson or anyone would look good in contrast. As if those were the only two viable options possible back then.

This current version of the Knicks is not a "rebuild", it's following the path of least resistance to an old man, who is cashing in on a Golden Parachute Knicks retirement plan.

The GM is Mills. The Knicks have a capable Front Office and Scouting. The real difference will come when they can draft better talent. They're not getting that talent from any Trade or FA signing at this point. They're going to have to do this via Draft and UDFA's. Develop their own talent for a while.

Where is it written that there is only one set method to rebuild a team in the NBA? I don't think purity on what a rebuild should be is that important at this point. I'll tell you what is MOST important is lucking upon an impact player in the Draft. Nothing would make a bigger difference at this point than to add another STUD to this team and start to shape what this team is really going to be able to do. When it comes down to it, the start and end is finding Talent that moves the needle.

Yes this is a rebuild. Maybe not in the traditional sense but when you get right down to it, this team is going to get younger and hopefully more talented this summer. This team's youngest players will be the core of the team and thus THAT IS A REBUILD.

TripleThreat wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Move Melo and the cap is in very good shape....

No, unfortunately, I'd argue that it's not. Not even close.

In order to trade Melo, to get him to waive his NTC and also the trade kicker would be an issue, the Knicks would have to take in at least one bad contract to make the salaries match. Again, he's not going to a gutted team and the few teams who he'd probably waive his NTC for have very limited options in terms of salary cap fits for a match that doesn't hurt their contender or close to contender status.

And i ask you again- how much cap space do you want? What are you using it for? or do you just like to have it there. We can easy clear a max slot, which means we can take on more than enough salary for a pick if we wanted to- why do you want/need more than this?

nixluva wrote:Where is it written that there is only one set method to rebuild a team in the NBA?

Yes this is a rebuild. Maybe not in the traditional sense but when you get right down to it, this team is going to get younger and hopefully more talented this summer. This team's youngest players will be the core of the team and thus THAT IS A REBUILD.

Rebuilding teams don't make the Rose trade, they certainly don't make the Noah signing.

Feel free to name the variable ways that teams can rebuild in the NBA without the classic "trade nearly everyone and tank" methodology.

I can do it, but they are usually unique and complex circumstances that are exceptions and not the rule of behavior in the modern NBA marketplace, but I'm not quite sure you can.

Over a period of years on this forum, all things you've said about the Knicks and all the things I've said about the Knicks, if the Knicks could have followed the advice of just one of us, which one of us would have gotten the team in a better and more positive direction towards being a consistent playoff team and towards contention?

Sam Presti did not just openly tank for years for no reason. Many people mistake guarantees out of simply opportunity. Presti was giving his team a real chance at something better, but not a promise. Many people criticized him because they said his methods offered no promises. Of course they didn't, but it's about improving your odds in the conditions of the marketplace as it currently stands.

smackeddog wrote:And i ask you again- how much cap space do you want? What are you using it for? or do you just like to have it there. We can easy clear a max slot, which means we can take on more than enough salary for a pick if we wanted to- why do you want/need more than this?

Logical fallacy....

Just because you have cap space does not mean you are not responsible for using it in the most efficient way possible.

Bad contracts are bad contracts. This was NOT a contract like the Mavs signing Harrison Barnes, where the player is young, going into his prime, has some proven pedigree, can play actual team basketball and defense, can show a useful NBA skill ( hitting from 3 point range) and even at big dollars, can be traded. If that Barnes contract goes bad, it was a calculated risk where the upside was evident from the start. It might not be realized, but it was there.

Noah was a bad contract all the way around. There was no upside to it at all. As such, it was an irresponsible contract.

You are positing that Noah is better than nothing, as if those were the only two possible outcomes for the use of the cap space.

Raw cap space would be very valuable in 2006. But in the modern era with the modern CBA, almost ALL NBA teams can carve out cap space if they needed it.

It's not just a question of cap space, but cap flexibility. Signing Robin Lopez is cap flexibility, he helps you now, he helps you later, he holds trade value, the contract looks better as the cap goes up, he plays team ball, he is not elite in any one area but he helps you in all areas, he's not signing immediately into a decline phase.

There are so few actual transactions an NBA team can make on a year to year basis, esp with a short draft and guaranteed contracts and a thin overall talent pool, you have to make each one count.

A Noah signing is not a death sentence in a structure like MLB or the NFL, but in the NBA, it's pretty damn ugly in context.

CrushAlot wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The Knicks cap is not in good shape

EnySpree wrote:That's the season after the 54 win season... we won 37 games that year. We had the same roster minus all the 40 year old alpha male babysitter club. That to me was the worst year of all because we didn't even have a 2014 first round pick. That wasn't on Phil's watch so you would have to blame someone else for that.

Everyone is saying the Knicks can't even tank right this season but we did get Kristaps in 2015 by dumping players for nothing and relying on Lou Amondson and Lance Thomas to play heavy minutes.

This year we know what it is... Melo got old. Rose sucks. Team has no leadership... Brandon Jennings said that going out the door. We are tanking cuz if we were trying to win we would have gotten Rubio and started playing the youth. We're getting a top lottery pick and our cap is fine... this is no way the worst season and no way Phil is just dogging it. It is what it is. This is a rebuild

Agree. 18 mil tied up with Noah, 44 mil tied up in Noah and Melo each of the next two years. You have to get it right when you sign guys to those deals.

Noah's contract stinks but is not franchise crippling. Almost every team almost has one bad contract like that.
The real issue is the Melo and Rose contracts. Combined they make almost 50M. Their production is not even close to that kind of money.

With Rose it'll be cleared within the summer. If we let Rose walk, and we move O'Quinn for a second round pick, we'll clear as much as $30 million in capspace.

A year from now, Melo is likely opting out (if he's not traded by then).He's not going to pass on getting a 3 or 4 year maximum deal at 34 years of age. He will cash in on the guaranteed money and rich market.

By summer 2018, only Noah's contract will be the bad one, and it'll be heading into it's 3rd year, which means a year later you could trade him as an expiring contract.

The good thing about having capspace is every year you can go shopping in free agency for a maximum level player. You may not get them, but you'll be in play. We can go after any big name this summer, and the same in summer 2018. I don't think a player like Gordan Hayward would sign with us, but we certainly should be able to pursue him and give him a maximum contract offer (if he's interested, we can easily move O'Quinn to get 30$M free)

We don't have that bad a "role player" team.

O'Quinn (4M$)
Thomas (5M$)
Kuz (2M$)
Lee (12M$)
Baker (1M$) Randle (1M$)
+ Holiday's early bird rights, which is likely a MLE deal for him (8M$).

Ofcourse some emerging rising stars for cheap in KP (5M$) and Willy (2M$) locked in for cheap for 2-3 more years. And a 2017 lottery pick that'll be making 4-5M$.

What this team needs is a star that can take Rose's spot and produce like a real star. And Melo needs to be moved for a young starer, draft pick and capspace OR allowed to walk in 2018 free agency.

nyknickzingis wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The Knicks cap is not in good shape

EnySpree wrote:That's the season after the 54 win season... we won 37 games that year. We had the same roster minus all the 40 year old alpha male babysitter club. That to me was the worst year of all because we didn't even have a 2014 first round pick. That wasn't on Phil's watch so you would have to blame someone else for that.

Everyone is saying the Knicks can't even tank right this season but we did get Kristaps in 2015 by dumping players for nothing and relying on Lou Amondson and Lance Thomas to play heavy minutes.

This year we know what it is... Melo got old. Rose sucks. Team has no leadership... Brandon Jennings said that going out the door. We are tanking cuz if we were trying to win we would have gotten Rubio and started playing the youth. We're getting a top lottery pick and our cap is fine... this is no way the worst season and no way Phil is just dogging it. It is what it is. This is a rebuild

Agree. 18 mil tied up with Noah, 44 mil tied up in Noah and Melo each of the next two years. You have to get it right when you sign guys to those deals.

Noah's contract stinks but is not franchise crippling. Almost every team almost has one bad contract like that.
The real issue is the Melo and Rose contracts. Combined they make almost 50M. Their production is not even close to that kind of money.

With Rose it'll be cleared within the summer. If we let Rose walk, and we move O'Quinn for a second round pick, we'll clear as much as $30 million in capspace.

A year from now, Melo is likely opting out (if he's not traded by then).He's not going to pass on getting a 3 or 4 year maximum deal at 34 years of age. He will cash in on the guaranteed money and rich market.

By summer 2018, only Noah's contract will be the bad one, and it'll be heading into it's 3rd year, which means a year later you could trade him as an expiring contract.

The good thing about having capspace is every year you can go shopping in free agency for a maximum level player. You may not get them, but you'll be in play. We can go after any big name this summer, and the same in summer 2018. I don't think a player like Gordan Hayward would sign with us, but we certainly should be able to pursue him and give him a maximum contract offer (if he's interested, we can easily move O'Quinn to get 30$M free)

We don't have that bad a "role player" team.

O'Quinn (4M$)
Thomas (5M$)
Kuz (2M$)
Lee (12M$)
Baker (1M$) Randle (1M$)
+ Holiday's early bird rights, which is likely a MLE deal for him (8M$).

Ofcourse some emerging rising stars for cheap in KP (5M$) and Willy (2M$) locked in for cheap for 2-3 more years. And a 2017 lottery pick that'll be making 4-5M$.

What this team needs is a star that can take Rose's spot and produce like a real star. And Melo needs to be moved for a young starer, draft pick and capspace OR allowed to walk in 2018 free agency.

You're combining Melo and Rose's contract to compare it to Noah's individually? Why?
There isn't any one contract that's crippling on the team. That's true. But having $80 mil out of a $94 mil cap spent Melo, Rose, Noah, Thomas, and Lee is about as bad an investment as you could possibly make. The other $22 mil on the roster has contributed more than that $80 mil has - somehow!

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:If noah had any part in Willy's development, he was not a total disaster.

I think you sign a player mostly for their individual impact on the court but with Noah I wouldn't be surprised if the intent was to also provide a KG-like mentor for KP and Willy.

Rose was able to bounce back from his injuries, let's hope Noah can continue.

I've brought this up before: I do believe Noah had some personal off-court issues that remain out of the newspapers - thank god - and may have distracted him enough. And then his knee. He is a warrior and played through cause of the newly signed contract but he may have been suffering from that all along. Knee problems lead to hamstring problems and vice versa. Hope he finds health.

18 mill for 4 years is alot to pay for a personal coach for 2 players. Hopefully he does come back healthy and we can trade him off before the next season ending injury.

nykshaknbake wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:If noah had any part in Willy's development, he was not a total disaster.

I think you sign a player mostly for their individual impact on the court but with Noah I wouldn't be surprised if the intent was to also provide a KG-like mentor for KP and Willy.

Rose was able to bounce back from his injuries, let's hope Noah can continue.

I've brought this up before: I do believe Noah had some personal off-court issues that remain out of the newspapers - thank god - and may have distracted him enough. And then his knee. He is a warrior and played through cause of the newly signed contract but he may have been suffering from that all along. Knee problems lead to hamstring problems and vice versa. Hope he finds health.

18 mill for 4 years is alot to pay for a personal coach for 2 players. Hopefully he does come back healthy and we can trade him off before the next season ending injury.

Yeah exactly. Jason Kidd signed a 3 year $9 mil contract. If we're getting an older guy to be a role model, that's the kind of money I'd picture. Maybe $9 mil in 2012 equals more like $15 mil now, but it's not $72 mil.