Knicks · This Top 10 picks in recent drafts are pretty bad (page 1)
Anthony Davis* PF/C
Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
Bradley Beal SG
Dion Waiters SG
Thomas Robinson PF
Damian Lillard* PG
Harrison Barnes SF
Andre Drummond* C
Austin Rivers
2013
Anthony Bennett PF/SF
Victor Oladipo SG/PG
Otto Porter SF
Cody Zeller C/PF
Alex Len c
Nerlens Noel C
Ben McLemore SG
Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
Trey Burke PG
C. J. McCollum
2014
Andrew Wiggins SF/SG
Jabari Parker SF
Joel Embiid C
Aaron Gordon PF
Dante Exum PG/SG
Marcus Smart PG
Julius Randle PF
Nik Stauskas SG
Noah Vonleh PF
Elfrid Payton pg
2015
Karl-Anthony Towns C
D'Angelo Russell
Jahlil Okafor C
Kristaps Porziņģis C
Mario Hezonja SG/SF
Willie Cauley-Stein
Emmanuel Mudiay PG
Stanley Johnson SF
Frank Kaminsky C
Justise Winslow
2016
Ben Simmons# PF/SF
Brandon Ingram SF
Jaylen Brown SF
Dragan Bender PF/C
Kris Dunn PG
Buddy Hield SG
Jamal Murray SG/PG
Marquese Chriss PF
Jakob Pöltl C
Thon Maker
1)There's only 2 all stars Davis and lillard out of 50 players
2)almost all of these players are on lottery teams or fighting for a 8th seed
3)There isn't one single leader (maybe lillard)
4)atleast 40 of these players definitely don't belong in the top 15 let alone top 10
The draft is not the way you build a team, it's the trades you make, like trading our current pick for one of these YOUNG more Establish players that has some experience and you know what your getting.
How do you think the free agents you want to land and trade for got into the league?! So according to you you can't land great players via the draft, but you can via trade and free agency, yet those players entered the league via the draft.
At some point we have to stop thinking we can just grab a bunch of players and make this team into a winner. Taking the Draft more seriously and player development more seriously is slower but it can make it more MEANINGFUL when you build up your team and then use Free Agency to augment what you've built thru the draft.
We lack impact players. Players that are COMPLETE 2 way players rather than only being offensive and selfish players or players that lack BB IQ. We need to find players that are Team Oriented and give Max Effort on both ends. The cheapest way is thru the draft.
smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.
Agreed!
BRIGGS wrote:I feel very confident when I say IF we pick 7 or worse that I'd take John Collins as a no brainer not only do I feel he is safe but he also has all star upside from the 4 position or as a small ball fast paced center I'm scared to take a guard around 7
We need a backcourt or wing player.
Pass.
JrZyHuStLa wrote:BRIGGS wrote:I feel very confident when I say IF we pick 7 or worse that I'd take John Collins as a no brainer not only do I feel he is safe but he also has all star upside from the 4 position or as a small ball fast paced center I'm scared to take a guard around 7We need a backcourt or wing player.
Pass.
No you always take the bpA
BRIGGS wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:BRIGGS wrote:I feel very confident when I say IF we pick 7 or worse that I'd take John Collins as a no brainer not only do I feel he is safe but he also has all star upside from the 4 position or as a small ball fast paced center I'm scared to take a guard around 7We need a backcourt or wing player.
Pass.
No you always take the bpA
Who says John Collins is the BPA from 7-14? It's a very tough thing to figure out once you get past the top 5 in any draft. How can you be so sure that John Collins is significantly better than the other options will be?
nixluva wrote:BRIGGS wrote:JrZyHuStLa wrote:BRIGGS wrote:I feel very confident when I say IF we pick 7 or worse that I'd take John Collins as a no brainer not only do I feel he is safe but he also has all star upside from the 4 position or as a small ball fast paced center I'm scared to take a guard around 7We need a backcourt or wing player.
Pass.
No you always take the bpA
Who says John Collins is the BPA from 7-14? It's a very tough thing to figure out once you get past the top 5 in any draft. How can you be so sure that John Collins is significantly better than the other options will be?
Well depends who is 7 but if the top 6 from draftexpress go like they predict I would take collins
smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.
If damn near all of them are on lottery teams how much of a impact are they having. You still gotta have that leadership, I'm not saying these players are not useful, there just not franchise changers. Some of them are on teams that are just too young, because they're constantly in the lottery every yr.
The draft to me is about taking the right player not the best, and the right player may not be in the top 10, he maybe 15(kawhi leonard) 20 (rondo) 30(jimmy butler)
you praise phil for not trading away future picks but he traded all of our 1st round picks we had..shump#7, Grant,#19 THJ #24. Didn't even give those guys a chance to develop, it's just so tough to build through the draft. You got the rookie wall, sophomore slumps, learning a system, changing coaches, changing teammates..Losing is alway brings massive changes.
Phil is not here for 3, 4, 5 more yrs, JH is not on phils bench learning the system being groom like Riley Did his coaches, he's on his own bench being taught by rambis. He's being taught by a guy who was demoted..
Even phil championship laker rosters, all put together via trades an FA Including Kobe who was traded for on draft day.
Why you think they had to start the D league,a big part was because these kids were just not ready
knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.If damn near all of them are on lottery teams how much of a impact are they having. You still gotta have that leadership, I'm not saying these players are not useful, there just not franchise changers. Some of them are on teams that are just too young, because they're constantly in the lottery every yr.
The draft to me is about taking the right player not the best, and the right player may not be in the top 10, he maybe 15(kawhi leonard) 20 (rondo) 30(jimmy butler)
you praise phil for not trading away future picks but he traded all of our 1st round picks we had..shump#7, Grant,#19 THJ #24. Didn't even give those guys a chance to develop, it's just so tough to build through the draft. You got the rookie wall, sophomore slumps, learning a system, changing coaches, changing teammates..Losing is alway brings massive changes.
Phil is not here for 3, 4, 5 more yrs, JH is not on phils bench learning the system being groom like Riley Did his coaches, he's on his own bench being taught by rambis. He's being taught by a guy who was demoted..
Even phil championship laker rosters, all put togther via trades Including Kobe who was traded for on draft day
Most of them haven't even nearly reached their primes yet, you can't say they're all bad classes yet. But just remember what if this class has the next Kobe, or even Harden or Curry. We honestly don't know. But that's the risk you take in the draft, and also why we need to be drafting our own talent.
Knicks67 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.If damn near all of them are on lottery teams how much of a impact are they having. You still gotta have that leadership, I'm not saying these players are not useful, there just not franchise changers. Some of them are on teams that are just too young, because they're constantly in the lottery every yr.
The draft to me is about taking the right player not the best, and the right player may not be in the top 10, he maybe 15(kawhi leonard) 20 (rondo) 30(jimmy butler)
you praise phil for not trading away future picks but he traded all of our 1st round picks we had..shump#7, Grant,#19 THJ #24. Didn't even give those guys a chance to develop, it's just so tough to build through the draft. You got the rookie wall, sophomore slumps, learning a system, changing coaches, changing teammates..Losing is alway brings massive changes.
Phil is not here for 3, 4, 5 more yrs, JH is not on phils bench learning the system being groom like Riley Did his coaches, he's on his own bench being taught by rambis. He's being taught by a guy who was demoted..
Even phil championship laker rosters, all put togther via trades Including Kobe who was traded for on draft day
Most of them haven't even nearly reached their primes yet, you can't say they're all bad classes yet. But just remember what if this class has the next Kobe, or even Harden or Curry. We honestly don't know. But that's the risk you take in the draft, and also why we need to be drafting our own talent.
Harden was traded, and curry got a lukewarm contract because of early injuries in his career. Kobe was winning out of the gate thats the only way you stick with your draft picks.
It's like being in a relationship that's not going anywhere, and hardly ever on the same page. how long does the last
knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.If damn near all of them are on lottery teams how much of a impact are they having. You still gotta have that leadership, I'm not saying these players are not useful, there just not franchise changers. Some of them are on teams that are just too young, because they're constantly in the lottery every yr.
The draft to me is about taking the right player not the best, and the right player may not be in the top 10, he maybe 15(kawhi leonard) 20 (rondo) 30(jimmy butler)
you praise phil for not trading away future picks but he traded all of our 1st round picks we had..shump#7, Grant,#19 THJ #24. Didn't even give those guys a chance to develop, it's just so tough to build through the draft. You got the rookie wall, sophomore slumps, learning a system, changing coaches, changing teammates..Losing is alway brings massive changes.
Phil is not here for 3, 4, 5 more yrs, JH is not on phils bench learning the system being groom like Riley Did his coaches, he's on his own bench being taught by rambis. He's being taught by a guy who was demoted..
Even phil championship laker rosters, all put together via trades an FA Including Kobe who was traded for on draft day.
Why you think they had to start the D league,a big part was because these kids were just not ready
I wouldn't really hold up our traded drafted players as any kind of indictment of what Phil is doing. None of them looks like an impact player so what's the big whup that we moved on from them? As for being tough to build thru the draft, no one is suggesting that the entire plan is to only use Drafted Players. The idea is to draft well and let those players form a base to build upon. Then you can add players via Free Agency or Trades. However, it should start from the Draft and see what develops.
I'm reading all of the posts you've been making this season since we've been pretty much sure to be in the lottery and I have yet to read what you presume is the alternative to this team using the Draft. The entire point is to use the draft and hopefully find that IMPACT player or two that will lift the team. We've been fortunate that KP and Willy look as good as they have. But what better option is there besides the Draft at this point???
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.If damn near all of them are on lottery teams how much of a impact are they having. You still gotta have that leadership, I'm not saying these players are not useful, there just not franchise changers. Some of them are on teams that are just too young, because they're constantly in the lottery every yr.
The draft to me is about taking the right player not the best, and the right player may not be in the top 10, he maybe 15(kawhi leonard) 20 (rondo) 30(jimmy butler)
you praise phil for not trading away future picks but he traded all of our 1st round picks we had..shump#7, Grant,#19 THJ #24. Didn't even give those guys a chance to develop, it's just so tough to build through the draft. You got the rookie wall, sophomore slumps, learning a system, changing coaches, changing teammates..Losing is alway brings massive changes.
Phil is not here for 3, 4, 5 more yrs, JH is not on phils bench learning the system being groom like Riley Did his coaches, he's on his own bench being taught by rambis. He's being taught by a guy who was demoted..
Even phil championship laker rosters, all put together via trades an FA Including Kobe who was traded for on draft day.
Why you think they had to start the D league,a big part was because these kids were just not ready
I wouldn't really hold up our traded drafted players as any kind of indictment of what Phil is doing. None of them looks like an impact player so what's the big whup that we moved on from them? As for being tough to build thru the draft, no one is suggesting that the entire plan is to only use Drafted Players. The idea is to draft well and let those players form a base to build upon. Then you can add players via Free Agency or Trades. However, it should start from the Draft and see what develops.
I'm reading all of the posts you've been making this season since we've been pretty much sure to be in the lottery and I have yet to read what you presume is the alternative to this team using the Draft. The entire point is to use the draft and hopefully find that IMPACT player or two that will lift the team. We've been fortunate that KP and Willy look as good as they have. But what better option is there besides the Draft at this point???
Thats why i said it's about drafting the right player, not the most talented, making the right trades, and not dumping players because they don't fit, and more importantly you got give it time. Why are we flipping the roster ever year, chemistry doesn't happen overnight. Other than KP, phil has given up on his own picks. I guess your hoping that it doesn't do it again. Your whole thing is, get rid of melo and rose, and were on our way to the promise land. We don't have stars lined up to sign here, even when have cap space
The one thing you have not heard me say, is blow up the roster, I would blow up the system
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.If damn near all of them are on lottery teams how much of a impact are they having. You still gotta have that leadership, I'm not saying these players are not useful, there just not franchise changers. Some of them are on teams that are just too young, because they're constantly in the lottery every yr.
The draft to me is about taking the right player not the best, and the right player may not be in the top 10, he maybe 15(kawhi leonard) 20 (rondo) 30(jimmy butler)
you praise phil for not trading away future picks but he traded all of our 1st round picks we had..shump#7, Grant,#19 THJ #24. Didn't even give those guys a chance to develop, it's just so tough to build through the draft. You got the rookie wall, sophomore slumps, learning a system, changing coaches, changing teammates..Losing is alway brings massive changes.
Phil is not here for 3, 4, 5 more yrs, JH is not on phils bench learning the system being groom like Riley Did his coaches, he's on his own bench being taught by rambis. He's being taught by a guy who was demoted..
Even phil championship laker rosters, all put together via trades an FA Including Kobe who was traded for on draft day.
Why you think they had to start the D league,a big part was because these kids were just not ready
I wouldn't really hold up our traded drafted players as any kind of indictment of what Phil is doing. None of them looks like an impact player so what's the big whup that we moved on from them? As for being tough to build thru the draft, no one is suggesting that the entire plan is to only use Drafted Players. The idea is to draft well and let those players form a base to build upon. Then you can add players via Free Agency or Trades. However, it should start from the Draft and see what develops.
I'm reading all of the posts you've been making this season since we've been pretty much sure to be in the lottery and I have yet to read what you presume is the alternative to this team using the Draft. The entire point is to use the draft and hopefully find that IMPACT player or two that will lift the team. We've been fortunate that KP and Willy look as good as they have. But what better option is there besides the Draft at this point???
Thats why i said it's about drafting the right player, not the most talented, making the right trades, and not dumping players because they don't fit, and more importantly you got give it time. Why are we flipping the roster ever year, chemistry doesn't happen overnight. Other than KP, phil has given up on his own picks. I guess your hoping that it doesn't do it again. Your whole thing is, get rid of melo and rose, and were on our way to the promise land. We don't have stars lined up to sign here, even when have cap space
The one thing you have not heard me say, is blow up the roster, I would blow up the system
I Would suggest that Melo and Rose are not players that lead to winning. Not the way they're playing at this point. Both players are simply not going to be difference makers for this team. It's not about being on our way to the Promised Land if we no longer had Melo and Rose, but rather that we can begin to build a REAL TEAM. The younger players need space to develop and grow in their roles.
Yes we'd still need front line talent. You can't win without 2 or 3 Impact Players and hopefully we can acquire Top Tier talent thru the draft and players that actually fit what we need and how we want to play. Team Oriented Players that defend as well as score. Players that give Max Effort.
I actually like the younger players Phil has brought in. We need MORE. We need difference makers. That's hopefully what we can get out of this draft.
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.If damn near all of them are on lottery teams how much of a impact are they having. You still gotta have that leadership, I'm not saying these players are not useful, there just not franchise changers. Some of them are on teams that are just too young, because they're constantly in the lottery every yr.
The draft to me is about taking the right player not the best, and the right player may not be in the top 10, he maybe 15(kawhi leonard) 20 (rondo) 30(jimmy butler)
you praise phil for not trading away future picks but he traded all of our 1st round picks we had..shump#7, Grant,#19 THJ #24. Didn't even give those guys a chance to develop, it's just so tough to build through the draft. You got the rookie wall, sophomore slumps, learning a system, changing coaches, changing teammates..Losing is alway brings massive changes.
Phil is not here for 3, 4, 5 more yrs, JH is not on phils bench learning the system being groom like Riley Did his coaches, he's on his own bench being taught by rambis. He's being taught by a guy who was demoted..
Even phil championship laker rosters, all put together via trades an FA Including Kobe who was traded for on draft day.
Why you think they had to start the D league,a big part was because these kids were just not ready
I wouldn't really hold up our traded drafted players as any kind of indictment of what Phil is doing. None of them looks like an impact player so what's the big whup that we moved on from them? As for being tough to build thru the draft, no one is suggesting that the entire plan is to only use Drafted Players. The idea is to draft well and let those players form a base to build upon. Then you can add players via Free Agency or Trades. However, it should start from the Draft and see what develops.
I'm reading all of the posts you've been making this season since we've been pretty much sure to be in the lottery and I have yet to read what you presume is the alternative to this team using the Draft. The entire point is to use the draft and hopefully find that IMPACT player or two that will lift the team. We've been fortunate that KP and Willy look as good as they have. But what better option is there besides the Draft at this point???
Thats why i said it's about drafting the right player, not the most talented, making the right trades, and not dumping players because they don't fit, and more importantly you got give it time. Why are we flipping the roster ever year, chemistry doesn't happen overnight. Other than KP, phil has given up on his own picks. I guess your hoping that it doesn't do it again. Your whole thing is, get rid of melo and rose, and were on our way to the promise land. We don't have stars lined up to sign here, even when have cap space
The one thing you have not heard me say, is blow up the roster, I would blow up the system
You're argument makes no sense, with regards to apparently not being able to rebuild via the draft- look all the top teams- they nearly all got most of their talent via the draft!!!!
If you decide to not rebuild via the draft, you then have to hope the top tier talent develops on another team, but in such a way that their current team, for some reason, doesn't want to keep them, and will trade them for a 1st rounder, which for some reason they value even though (according to you) are worthless.
Which players are you trading for? Give me some examples. Also give me some examples of which franchise changing players you are signing in the offseason.
But the other three drafts, I think you can start to make full evaluations.
"The draft is not the way you build a team"
This statement is completely insane. The Warriors drafted some real duds RIGHT after Curry, but they kept to the plan, and good things happened. Outside of some very unique and complex circumstances in the NBA, FA is simply not a team building tool.
What the heck is this? Only draft if you get a franchise player?
How about just get a good young starter, who can keep getting better each year a little bit.
smackeddog wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:Go look at your list again, you are crazy if you don't think there's a whole heap of top tier talent there.If damn near all of them are on lottery teams how much of a impact are they having. You still gotta have that leadership, I'm not saying these players are not useful, there just not franchise changers. Some of them are on teams that are just too young, because they're constantly in the lottery every yr.
The draft to me is about taking the right player not the best, and the right player may not be in the top 10, he maybe 15(kawhi leonard) 20 (rondo) 30(jimmy butler)
you praise phil for not trading away future picks but he traded all of our 1st round picks we had..shump#7, Grant,#19 THJ #24. Didn't even give those guys a chance to develop, it's just so tough to build through the draft. You got the rookie wall, sophomore slumps, learning a system, changing coaches, changing teammates..Losing is alway brings massive changes.
Phil is not here for 3, 4, 5 more yrs, JH is not on phils bench learning the system being groom like Riley Did his coaches, he's on his own bench being taught by rambis. He's being taught by a guy who was demoted..
Even phil championship laker rosters, all put together via trades an FA Including Kobe who was traded for on draft day.
Why you think they had to start the D league,a big part was because these kids were just not ready
I wouldn't really hold up our traded drafted players as any kind of indictment of what Phil is doing. None of them looks like an impact player so what's the big whup that we moved on from them? As for being tough to build thru the draft, no one is suggesting that the entire plan is to only use Drafted Players. The idea is to draft well and let those players form a base to build upon. Then you can add players via Free Agency or Trades. However, it should start from the Draft and see what develops.
I'm reading all of the posts you've been making this season since we've been pretty much sure to be in the lottery and I have yet to read what you presume is the alternative to this team using the Draft. The entire point is to use the draft and hopefully find that IMPACT player or two that will lift the team. We've been fortunate that KP and Willy look as good as they have. But what better option is there besides the Draft at this point???
Thats why i said it's about drafting the right player, not the most talented, making the right trades, and not dumping players because they don't fit, and more importantly you got give it time. Why are we flipping the roster ever year, chemistry doesn't happen overnight. Other than KP, phil has given up on his own picks. I guess your hoping that it doesn't do it again. Your whole thing is, get rid of melo and rose, and were on our way to the promise land. We don't have stars lined up to sign here, even when have cap space
The one thing you have not heard me say, is blow up the roster, I would blow up the system
You're argument makes no sense, with regards to apparently not being able to rebuild via the draft- look all the top teams- they nearly all got most of their talent via the draft!!!!
If you decide to not rebuild via the draft, you then have to hope the top tier talent develops on another team, but in such a way that their current team, for some reason, doesn't want to keep them, and will trade them for a 1st rounder, which for some reason they value even though (according to you) are worthless.
Which players are you trading for? Give me some examples. Also give me some examples of which franchise changing players you are signing in the offseason.
Top tier teams like Boston, Toronto did not succeed until they used Free agency to get their impact player. Ie. IT and Lowery. Unless you count the ones that hit Lotto like GS and Cleveland. But think everyone is somewhat right. Knicks1248 is pointing out the draft is not a sure thing. Many good players but a lot more overhyped players that just don't pan out. That and that if we are to truly rebuild, we need a new system that is not so antiquated, FA friendly and not led by a dinosaur who will likely be gone in a couple of years (like his system). Also makes a great point on Phil giving up on former 1st Round picks. 2 who are starters and contributing to winning systems. However, don't think you can dismiss the draft, as it is the only way to get free new young assets. Unfortunately we are such a mess that it is hard to trade for young proven players or sign FA's. No one wants to come here. Only way to go forward is to get a young mind as coach and GM who will be here for 10 years. Ie. Boston. Build through draft and FA. Even if it means picking up character Vets for minimum to teach young guys. Rose and Melo are tough decisions. I don't like Rose's court vision, basketball IQ but how many players can drive like he does? Think price will be the determinant for me. Melo is my favorite player, surprise, but think his age, knees and Phil's mind games have turned him into a shadow of his former self. Think it's best for him and Knicks if he is traded. Problem will be, his Pride to turn things around and the little other teams will offer, as he has NTC. Somewhat admire but don't understand his insistence on making it work here. Other issue for me is KP's inability to play the 4 or 5 defensively. Think it will be an issue and not sure you can improve a 7'3 guys ability to chase around quick stretch 4's. Think only position would be the 5, if he gains weight. But we have seen other players through the years have issue gaining weight. We shall see.