Knicks · Hornacek says Knicks committing to Triangle next season (page 2)

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/ChinaJoeFlynn/status/844705682700075009

Click here to view the Tweet

nyknickzingis wrote:I think Phil and Horny are kidding themselves if they think Rose and Melo will buy in
It's a good system if run right
It won't be with these guys.

OR maybe they are asking people who dissent with it to move on?

CrushAlot wrote:

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/ChinaJoeFlynn/status/844705682700075009

Click here to view the Tweet

Cute but the Knicks didn't run Pure Triangle most of the time Phil has been here. The closest to pure Triangle was during Rambis short stint.

The thing is MOST complainers have no idea what's in the Triangle Offense beyond the Side Triangle. They only complain because the team is losing. When they win no one cares about the Triangle. ITS NOT ABOUT THE TRIANGLE!!! It's about the TALENT. Get better TALENT and it won't matter what you run.

GustavBahler wrote:Great, another yes man.

Yeah, this is the main issue. Hornacek came in saying he didn't want to run full Triangle. He has no real experience with the Triangle. Now he's saying that they should've been running it more? How would he even know that? He's just doing what Phil wants to keep his job. I don't see it working. Hornacek will be the one blamed next year and he'll be gone by this time next year and we'll probably be looking at coach Rambis for the duration of Phil's contract. Hopefully that's the extent of the damage, but I worry they'll also make missteps if they try to draft Triangle guys. Time will tell.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't care what kind of players you bring in, they won't have a whole of respect for a coach who doesn't run his own camp and system.

Thats human nature, who wants to sign with a team with a puppet coach who can get fired for doing his own thing. who's going to play hard and respect a man that has little to no say in what the team does.

NIX don't get it twisted, phil brought Tex on his staff, Doc Brought Thibs on his staff..JH was force to put Rambis on his staff, a guy none of the players where in favor of which is why he didn't get the title HC..

It's funny how JH can sit up there and say guys didn't play hard, How hard did he go at phil and insist he run his own show, peoeple respect a stance more than yes man. Just like phil went to dolan and said, If im in i need you hands off. If you're a yes man at work 85% staff hates you, that the way it is. That's why the veterans on this team don't play hard among other things Q, Lee, Melo, Rose Jennings, noah even KP. Passive coach, produce passive players.

Phil was a HIGH IQ coach, and his teams IQ's were through the roof, JVG was a rugged coach, no nonsense coach, riley, kerr, their teams take their personality.

Remind me how much respect StarMelo had for Mike D'Antoni who ran his own camp and system. PLEASE???

That's why he quit, he took a fckng stance,you could repsect that, and that very same yr, melo played excellent in the olympics under the same exact system with MDA right there. Please what? don't come half way

Ya you could respect that - the question was did you? And more importantly did the Incredible Sulk respect him?
You said players don't respect coaches that run someone else's system. The way I see it certain players (Melo and Rose) don't respect anything unless it's all about them.
Again this whole thing you guys keep pushing is pretty boring - bad GMs, bad Coaches, bad Rosters, bad teammates, bad media, bad fans and poor misunderstood Melo making sacrifice after sacrifice by pocketing 25 million a year and carrying us to first round exits and 17 win seasons.

We get it, really we do.

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't care what kind of players you bring in, they won't have a whole of respect for a coach who doesn't run his own camp and system.

Thats human nature, who wants to sign with a team with a puppet coach who can get fired for doing his own thing. who's going to play hard and respect a man that has little to no say in what the team does.

NIX don't get it twisted, phil brought Tex on his staff, Doc Brought Thibs on his staff..JH was force to put Rambis on his staff, a guy none of the players where in favor of which is why he didn't get the title HC..

It's funny how JH can sit up there and say guys didn't play hard, How hard did he go at phil and insist he run his own show, peoeple respect a stance more than yes man. Just like phil went to dolan and said, If im in i need you hands off. If you're a yes man at work 85% staff hates you, that the way it is. That's why the veterans on this team don't play hard among other things Q, Lee, Melo, Rose Jennings, noah even KP. Passive coach, produce passive players.

Phil was a HIGH IQ coach, and his teams IQ's were through the roof, JVG was a rugged coach, no nonsense coach, riley, kerr, their teams take their personality.

Remind me how much respect StarMelo had for Mike D'Antoni who ran his own camp and system. PLEASE???

That's why he quit, he took a fckng stance,you could repsect that, and that very same yr, melo played excellent in the olympics under the same exact system with MDA right there. Please what? don't come half way

Ya you could respect that - the question was did you? And more importantly did the Incredible Sulk respect him?
You said players don't respect coaches that run someone else's system. The way I see it certain players (Melo and Rose) don't respect anything unless it's all about them.
Again this whole thing you guys keep pushing is pretty boring - bad GMs, bad Coaches, bad Rosters, bad teammates, bad media, bad fans and poor misunderstood Melo making sacrifice after sacrifice by pocketing 25 million a year and carrying us to first round exits and 17 win seasons.

We get it, really we do.

I think the fans are pretty good to stay through all this shit.

Melo got the Knicks into the second round for the first time since JVG and Camby and Spree left.

And gotta say, you left out the big one - the one constant in our last 16 years of misery - James Dolan.

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't care what kind of players you bring in, they won't have a whole of respect for a coach who doesn't run his own camp and system.

Thats human nature, who wants to sign with a team with a puppet coach who can get fired for doing his own thing. who's going to play hard and respect a man that has little to no say in what the team does.

NIX don't get it twisted, phil brought Tex on his staff, Doc Brought Thibs on his staff..JH was force to put Rambis on his staff, a guy none of the players where in favor of which is why he didn't get the title HC..

It's funny how JH can sit up there and say guys didn't play hard, How hard did he go at phil and insist he run his own show, peoeple respect a stance more than yes man. Just like phil went to dolan and said, If im in i need you hands off. If you're a yes man at work 85% staff hates you, that the way it is. That's why the veterans on this team don't play hard among other things Q, Lee, Melo, Rose Jennings, noah even KP. Passive coach, produce passive players.

Phil was a HIGH IQ coach, and his teams IQ's were through the roof, JVG was a rugged coach, no nonsense coach, riley, kerr, their teams take their personality.

Remind me how much respect StarMelo had for Mike D'Antoni who ran his own camp and system. PLEASE???

That's why he quit, he took a fckng stance,you could repsect that, and that very same yr, melo played excellent in the olympics under the same exact system with MDA right there. Please what? don't come half way

Ya you could respect that - the question was did you? And more importantly did the Incredible Sulk respect him?
You said players don't respect coaches that run someone else's system. The way I see it certain players (Melo and Rose) don't respect anything unless it's all about them.
Again this whole thing you guys keep pushing is pretty boring - bad GMs, bad Coaches, bad Rosters, bad teammates, bad media, bad fans and poor misunderstood Melo making sacrifice after sacrifice by pocketing 25 million a year and carrying us to first round exits and 17 win seasons.

We get it, really we do.

I think the fans are pretty good to stay through all this shit. -- AGREED

Melo got the Knicks into the second round for the first time since JVG and Camby and Spree left. -- Big whoopdedo and you left out "scoring titles"

And gotta say, you left out the big one - the one constant in our last 16 years of misery - James Dolan. -- MY BAD, ADD bad owner to DA LIST

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/SBondyNYDN/status/844721802865709056

Click here to view the Tweet

crzymdups wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't care what kind of players you bring in, they won't have a whole of respect for a coach who doesn't run his own camp and system.

Thats human nature, who wants to sign with a team with a puppet coach who can get fired for doing his own thing. who's going to play hard and respect a man that has little to no say in what the team does.

NIX don't get it twisted, phil brought Tex on his staff, Doc Brought Thibs on his staff..JH was force to put Rambis on his staff, a guy none of the players where in favor of which is why he didn't get the title HC..

It's funny how JH can sit up there and say guys didn't play hard, How hard did he go at phil and insist he run his own show, peoeple respect a stance more than yes man. Just like phil went to dolan and said, If im in i need you hands off. If you're a yes man at work 85% staff hates you, that the way it is. That's why the veterans on this team don't play hard among other things Q, Lee, Melo, Rose Jennings, noah even KP. Passive coach, produce passive players.

Phil was a HIGH IQ coach, and his teams IQ's were through the roof, JVG was a rugged coach, no nonsense coach, riley, kerr, their teams take their personality.

Remind me how much respect StarMelo had for Mike D'Antoni who ran his own camp and system. PLEASE???

That's why he quit, he took a fckng stance,you could repsect that, and that very same yr, melo played excellent in the olympics under the same exact system with MDA right there. Please what? don't come half way

Ya you could respect that - the question was did you? And more importantly did the Incredible Sulk respect him?
You said players don't respect coaches that run someone else's system. The way I see it certain players (Melo and Rose) don't respect anything unless it's all about them.
Again this whole thing you guys keep pushing is pretty boring - bad GMs, bad Coaches, bad Rosters, bad teammates, bad media, bad fans and poor misunderstood Melo making sacrifice after sacrifice by pocketing 25 million a year and carrying us to first round exits and 17 win seasons.

We get it, really we do.

I think the fans are pretty good to stay through all this shit.

Melo got the Knicks into the second round for the first time since JVG and Camby and Spree left.

And gotta say, you left out the big one - the one constant in our last 16 years of misery - James Dolan.

Secondly even though Melo had a good year that year and I give him credit for that I dont think he carried us to the second round. we had a lot of players have their best years like JR Smith and others. also lets be honest we barely survived beating a depleted aging Celtic team after being up 3-0. then we got manhandled in the second round.

I agree with you about Dolan...he sucks

Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://mobile.twitter.com/SBondyNYDN/status/844721802865709056/photo/1

Click here to view the Tweet

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't care what kind of players you bring in, they won't have a whole of respect for a coach who doesn't run his own camp and system.

Thats human nature, who wants to sign with a team with a puppet coach who can get fired for doing his own thing. who's going to play hard and respect a man that has little to no say in what the team does.

NIX don't get it twisted, phil brought Tex on his staff, Doc Brought Thibs on his staff..JH was force to put Rambis on his staff, a guy none of the players where in favor of which is why he didn't get the title HC..

It's funny how JH can sit up there and say guys didn't play hard, How hard did he go at phil and insist he run his own show, peoeple respect a stance more than yes man. Just like phil went to dolan and said, If im in i need you hands off. If you're a yes man at work 85% staff hates you, that the way it is. That's why the veterans on this team don't play hard among other things Q, Lee, Melo, Rose Jennings, noah even KP. Passive coach, produce passive players.

Phil was a HIGH IQ coach, and his teams IQ's were through the roof, JVG was a rugged coach, no nonsense coach, riley, kerr, their teams take their personality.

Remind me how much respect StarMelo had for Mike D'Antoni who ran his own camp and system. PLEASE???

That's why he quit, he took a fckng stance,you could repsect that, and that very same yr, melo played excellent in the olympics under the same exact system with MDA right there. Please what? don't come half way

Ya you could respect that - the question was did you? And more importantly did the Incredible Sulk respect him?
You said players don't respect coaches that run someone else's system. The way I see it certain players (Melo and Rose) don't respect anything unless it's all about them.
Again this whole thing you guys keep pushing is pretty boring - bad GMs, bad Coaches, bad Rosters, bad teammates, bad media, bad fans and poor misunderstood Melo making sacrifice after sacrifice by pocketing 25 million a year and carrying us to first round exits and 17 win seasons.

We get it, really we do.

The coach is a damn puppet, I dont care who's on the team, that aint the point. If your a yes man, no ones going to respect you period, and you know that. There's 13 other guys on this team, and 85% don't give a sht about JH because he is not the one calling the shots.

What do you say when your not getting the help you need..PUT YOUR FCKNG MANAGER ON THE LINE, you lose respect to somebody that has no say in the matter..go read what jennings had to say

crzymdups wrote:
I think the fans are pretty good to stay through all this shit.

Melo got the Knicks into the second round for the first time since JVG and Camby and Spree left.

And gotta say, you left out the big one - the one constant in our last 16 years of misery - James Dolan.

Melo played some good ball the year we got to the 2nd rd. No one is gonna be upset about that. What matters NOW is that he's not that player anymore and this team needed more from him than scoring and he didn't provide those other things.

We should all be hoping we can replace Melo and Rose with better players that help the TEAM play better in the future. We can't live off the Melo of the past.

GustavBahler wrote:Great, another yes man.

That's not how I see it at all

In the NBA, even moreso than MLB and the NFL, the head coach becomes the fall guy when thing go wrong. Easier to dump the coach or manager than to replace players who are harder to get rid of and an entrenched front office who have the ear of the owner.

Hornacek is essentially interviewing for his next job right now. He knows he's a dead man walking here. Eventually he'll get fired because coaches on losing teams that keep losing get fired. Eventually Jackson or Dolan or Melo will run a train on Hornacek in the press, blaming him for everything and anything, to deflect any kind of responsibility for the Knicks situation.

What is Hornacek really saying?

1) I'm loyal, the chain of command overruled me, so I'm going to run the offense I've been told to run. Other teams don't want to hire a guy who will completely go off the reservation whenever he wants

2) He tried to push a modern offense unto this team, but he was overruled, this coincides when the team was playing better earlier in the season

3) No one can succeed with this level of talent on the roster. It's already established that Rose and Melo are problem players. They do what they want to do, the team and team basketball be damned.

4) He got the team playing close games, which is all he could do given the limitations imposed on him

5) The roster had injuries, which can impact any team in any situation, but highlights Jackson going after aging veteran players and overpaying them.

I don't see a "Yes, man", I see a guy letting it out in the press that he did the best he could in a situation that was clearly a lose/lose scenario. And that no coach could succeed in this situation. But despite that, he's going to be positive and continue to do his job and follow the orders he was given.

I think he handled the situation pretty well given the circumstances. There is no "win" here for Hornacek. This is damage control for the future of his possible coaching career. I actually think he's a pretty damn good coach, but you can't force a player in the NBA to behave like a professional. The system leans too far in favor of the selfish diva player.

What the end result will be is that ANY COACH WITH OPTIONS, will avoid the Knicks. Any front office guy with OPTIONS will avoid the Knicks. Sure they can get a guy desperate as hell to coach anyone, or to make their bones knowing this is like a "starter job" and that they are gaining experience for the 2nd job they hope to get.

If Melo and Rose don't play hard, it's not because they don't respect the coach, it's because they don't respect themselves. They don't even respect themselves enough to act like professionals. Sometimes I see people push that tired agenda, like it's someone elses fault that Melo won't even try on defense. I think to myself - Do any of these people have kids? Is this the kind of sh*t people teach their kids? If you don't like your coach or how you are told to play, dog it, it's not your fault, you have no obligation to your team, your sense of honor, your sense of dignity, your sense of team work, your sense of respect for how you conduct yourself.

It's like some people don't really understand why Linsanity was something heard literally around the world. Do you think it's just because he was Asian? I think it has to do with a guy who was relentless, and win or lose, would play the right way, would play the team game, would commit to win at all costs. And it must have been embarrassing for a selfish mercenary like Melo to see basically an undrafted player, pretty much a rookie, conduct himself with poise like a veteran player, without fear, and would simply lead his team to victory.

Hornacek is saying what is going to go unspoken but understood around the league, the Knicks are a toxic situation. No one can win in this type of environment as it stands currently. You will, like Pringles and Lin, be punished in some way or another, simply for trying to actually play real team basketball.

Yes, yes, tell your kid playing Little League he can dog it because he doesn't have to respect anyone, not even himself and not even his coach, because he simply is not getting what he wants when he wants it. Way to set the bar so motherf**king low.

TripleThreat wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Great, another yes man.

That's not how I see it at all

In the NBA, even moreso than MLB and the NFL, the head coach becomes the fall guy when thing go wrong. Easier to dump the coach or manager than to replace players who are harder to get rid of and an entrenched front office who have the ear of the owner.

Hornacek is essentially interviewing for his next job right now. He knows he's a dead man walking here. Eventually he'll get fired because coaches on losing teams that keep losing get fired. Eventually Jackson or Dolan or Melo will run a train on Hornacek in the press, blaming him for everything and anything, to deflect any kind of responsibility for the Knicks situation.

What is Hornacek really saying?

1) I'm loyal, the chain of command overruled me, so I'm going to run the offense I've been told to run. Other teams don't want to hire a guy who will completely go off the reservation whenever he wants

2) He tried to push a modern offense unto this team, but he was overruled, this coincides when the team was playing better earlier in the season

3) No one can succeed with this level of talent on the roster. It's already established that Rose and Melo are problem players. They do what they want to do, the team and team basketball be damned.

4) He got the team playing close games, which is all he could do given the limitations imposed on him

5) The roster had injuries, which can impact any team in any situation, but highlights Jackson going after aging veteran players and overpaying them.

I don't see a "Yes, man", I see a guy letting it out in the press that he did the best he could in a situation that was clearly a lose/lose scenario. And that no coach could succeed in this situation. But despite that, he's going to be positive and continue to do his job and follow the orders he was given.

I think he handled the situation pretty well given the circumstances. There is no "win" here for Hornacek. This is damage control for the future of his possible coaching career. I actually think he's a pretty damn good coach, but you can't force a player in the NBA to behave like a professional. The system leans too far in favor of the selfish diva player.

What the end result will be is that ANY COACH WITH OPTIONS, will avoid the Knicks. Any front office guy with OPTIONS will avoid the Knicks. Sure they can get a guy desperate as hell to coach anyone, or to make their bones knowing this is like a "starter job" and that they are gaining experience for the 2nd job they hope to get.

If Melo and Rose don't play hard, it's not because they don't respect the coach, it's because they don't respect themselves. They don't even respect themselves enough to act like professionals. Sometimes I see people push that tired agenda, like it's someone elses fault that Melo won't even try on defense. I think to myself - Do any of these people have kids? Is this the kind of sh*t people teach their kids? If you don't like your coach or how you are told to play, dog it, it's not your fault, you have no obligation to your team, your sense of honor, your sense of dignity, your sense of team work, your sense of respect for how you conduct yourself.

It's like some people don't really understand why Linsanity was something heard literally around the world. Do you think it's just because he was Asian? I think it has to do with a guy who was relentless, and win or lose, would play the right way, would play the team game, would commit to win at all costs. And it must have been embarrassing for a selfish mercenary like Melo to see basically an undrafted player, pretty much a rookie, conduct himself with poise like a veteran player, without fear, and would simply lead his team to victory.

Hornacek is saying what is going to go unspoken but understood around the league, the Knicks are a toxic situation. No one can win in this type of environment as it stands currently. You will, like Pringles and Lin, be punished in some way or another, simply for trying to actually play real team basketball.

Yes, yes, tell your kid playing Little League he can dog it because he doesn't have to respect anyone, not even himself and not even his coach, because he simply is not getting what he wants when he wants it. Way to set the bar so motherf**king low.

I suppose this is a step up from your racist rants about black people. Up to this point, it was only subject you wanted to discuss with me. But you still sound like you spent the last week on a meth bender.

How the fuck do you you go from my comment about Hornacek being a yes man to a little league coach telling a kid anything? Are you fucking kidding me? Put down the pipe.

Im sorry I wire you up so much that the only conversation you wish to have with me sounds either like it came from a Klan rally or detox. If I had insulted you, disrespected you, I might get it. But that didn't happen, not even close. Just you spazzing out for no apparent reason.

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I don't care what kind of players you bring in, they won't have a whole of respect for a coach who doesn't run his own camp and system.

Thats human nature, who wants to sign with a team with a puppet coach who can get fired for doing his own thing. who's going to play hard and respect a man that has little to no say in what the team does.

NIX don't get it twisted, phil brought Tex on his staff, Doc Brought Thibs on his staff..JH was force to put Rambis on his staff, a guy none of the players where in favor of which is why he didn't get the title HC..

It's funny how JH can sit up there and say guys didn't play hard, How hard did he go at phil and insist he run his own show, peoeple respect a stance more than yes man. Just like phil went to dolan and said, If im in i need you hands off. If you're a yes man at work 85% staff hates you, that the way it is. That's why the veterans on this team don't play hard among other things Q, Lee, Melo, Rose Jennings, noah even KP. Passive coach, produce passive players.

Phil was a HIGH IQ coach, and his teams IQ's were through the roof, JVG was a rugged coach, no nonsense coach, riley, kerr, their teams take their personality.

Remind me how much respect StarMelo had for Mike D'Antoni who ran his own camp and system. PLEASE???

That's why he quit, he took a fckng stance,you could repsect that, and that very same yr, melo played excellent in the olympics under the same exact system with MDA right there. Please what? don't come half way

Ya you could respect that - the question was did you? And more importantly did the Incredible Sulk respect him?
You said players don't respect coaches that run someone else's system. The way I see it certain players (Melo and Rose) don't respect anything unless it's all about them.
Again this whole thing you guys keep pushing is pretty boring - bad GMs, bad Coaches, bad Rosters, bad teammates, bad media, bad fans and poor misunderstood Melo making sacrifice after sacrifice by pocketing 25 million a year and carrying us to first round exits and 17 win seasons.

We get it, really we do.

The coach is a damn puppet, I dont care who's on the team, that aint the point. If your a yes man, no ones going to respect you period, and you know that. There's 13 other guys on this team, and 85% don't give a sht about JH because he is not the one calling the shots.

What do you say when your not getting the help you need..PUT YOUR FCKNG MANAGER ON THE LINE, you lose respect to somebody that has no say in the matter..go read what jennings had to say

Where did I say anything about Hornacek? I called you out on your BS statement that people respect coaches who coach their own system, because the people in question havent been known to respect anyone. And now you are switching subjects. Case closed.

Numbers since went all in on Triangle.

KP 17.9 ppg 25.5% Usage Rate (went up) 43% Shooting 108 O rating (went up from previous month)
Rose 18.1 ppg 24% Usage Rate (went down by 2 points) 48% Shooting (went up) 4.1 apg 112 O Rating (Rose's O rating has gone up in the Triangle)
Melo 17,7 ppg 24% Usage Rate (down by 8 points from previous month) 38.5% shooting 102 O Rating

KP, Rose have both seen their offense rating and numbers improve in this month since we went all in to the Triangle. Melo on the other hand is the one that has seen his numbers shift downward and struggle the most. His usage rate and field goal percentage are much lower.

At this point, a little less than a mont into the all in Triangle era with this team, it's clear KP and Rose can do what they want in the Triangle, but Melo is suffering big time. I'm actually shocked at this, because Melo should in theory fit in best of the 3 of them. He has all the same skills Kobe has (maybe not to the same degree) and I'm surprised he is struggling so bad with it.