Knicks · Melo is at peace but still doesn't get it (page 7)

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:MDA did in FACT try to put Melo in a Point Forward position and Melo reluctantly went thru the motions. Even still it was one of the best Assist seasons for Melo. If he had bought in fully it could have been even better.

...coach Mike D'Antoni. He pulled Melo out of his prime position as a finisher to attempt a point forward style of play. Melo is not LeBron James, and the clash of styles again gave media fuel to paint Anthony as the stubborn malcontent—especially when 10-day contract reserve Jeremy Lin arrived and went on a month long tear through the league, saving the Knicks' season. While that too would fade away, the idea of trading Anthony to focus on Lin was entertained by many.

http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/03/ca...

Last year we saw DadMelo and it was good. It was something to build on going forward. Melo decided not to continue playing that way which shows he learned NOTHING.

Man, the Knicks could've been great if only 32 yr old Melo decided to be a passing point forward.

One question - was it Melo's decision not to run the triangle starting the year or was that Hornacek? Because I seem to remember Hornacek saying he'd install his offense with "triangle aspects." But I guess I misheard and it was all Melo's fault.

WTF are you talking about??? You post is all over the place! Melo WAS F'n passing the ball more JUST LAST SEASON!!! Why the F didn't he do that more this year even after being called out for NOT PASSING???

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH JEFF! That's all on Melo who should know by now how important it is for him to help his teammates and move the ball. Stop F'n making excuses for Melo! STOP!!!

Could it be that Melo played a different role because there was a new coach who installed a different offense? Is that really so hard to follow? Is that really not a reply to your post?

LivingLegend wrote:

Andrew wrote:http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19035...

Yes! Great job accepting your role!

"I see the writing on the wall. I see what it is," Anthony said late Wednesday night. "I see what they're trying to do, and it's just me accepting that. That's what puts me at peace. Just knowing and understanding how things work. I'm at peace with that."

Nooooo! The Knicks never wanted you to go out there and try to score 30 or 40 a night!

"I don't think me going out there, trying to score 30 and 40 every night and playing that way, is going to help them out at this point."

Melo is such a fool. A talented player who is a complete dummy and a plague on this franchise.

Hoping beyond hope that he waives the no-trade and we take back a few turds in exchange for his absence ---- he is a player I can't stand to watch.

I was thinking about off-season trades and our apparent love with long guards. Is it crazy to think we couldn't trade Melo to GS for Shaun Livingston or SAS for Kyle Anderson (other things being thrown in as needed)

Those teams are in excellent position to win a championship.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:MDA did in FACT try to put Melo in a Point Forward position and Melo reluctantly went thru the motions. Even still it was one of the best Assist seasons for Melo. If he had bought in fully it could have been even better.

...coach Mike D'Antoni. He pulled Melo out of his prime position as a finisher to attempt a point forward style of play. Melo is not LeBron James, and the clash of styles again gave media fuel to paint Anthony as the stubborn malcontent—especially when 10-day contract reserve Jeremy Lin arrived and went on a month long tear through the league, saving the Knicks' season. While that too would fade away, the idea of trading Anthony to focus on Lin was entertained by many.

http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/03/ca...

Last year we saw DadMelo and it was good. It was something to build on going forward. Melo decided not to continue playing that way which shows he learned NOTHING.

Man, the Knicks could've been great if only 32 yr old Melo decided to be a passing point forward.

One question - was it Melo's decision not to run the triangle starting the year or was that Hornacek? Because I seem to remember Hornacek saying he'd install his offense with "triangle aspects." But I guess I misheard and it was all Melo's fault.

WTF are you talking about??? You post is all over the place! Melo WAS F'n passing the ball more JUST LAST SEASON!!! Why the F didn't he do that more this year even after being called out for NOT PASSING???

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH JEFF! That's all on Melo who should know by now how important it is for him to help his teammates and move the ball. Stop F'n making excuses for Melo! STOP!!!

Could it be that Melo played a different role because there was a new coach who installed a different offense? Is that really so hard to follow? Is that really not a reply to your post?

They had no choice..It was Jose Calderon or rook Grant...Calderon couldn't run the point all game becuase he was a scrub and Grant was a rook..Melo had to do it...But it wore him out as well...Which probably bled into this season...

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:MDA did in FACT try to put Melo in a Point Forward position and Melo reluctantly went thru the motions. Even still it was one of the best Assist seasons for Melo. If he had bought in fully it could have been even better.

...coach Mike D'Antoni. He pulled Melo out of his prime position as a finisher to attempt a point forward style of play. Melo is not LeBron James, and the clash of styles again gave media fuel to paint Anthony as the stubborn malcontent—especially when 10-day contract reserve Jeremy Lin arrived and went on a month long tear through the league, saving the Knicks' season. While that too would fade away, the idea of trading Anthony to focus on Lin was entertained by many.

http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/03/ca...

Last year we saw DadMelo and it was good. It was something to build on going forward. Melo decided not to continue playing that way which shows he learned NOTHING.

Man, the Knicks could've been great if only 32 yr old Melo decided to be a passing point forward.

One question - was it Melo's decision not to run the triangle starting the year or was that Hornacek? Because I seem to remember Hornacek saying he'd install his offense with "triangle aspects." But I guess I misheard and it was all Melo's fault.

WTF are you talking about??? You post is all over the place! Melo WAS F'n passing the ball more JUST LAST SEASON!!! Why the F didn't he do that more this year even after being called out for NOT PASSING???

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH JEFF! That's all on Melo who should know by now how important it is for him to help his teammates and move the ball. Stop F'n making excuses for Melo! STOP!!!

Could it be that Melo played a different role because there was a new coach who installed a different offense? Is that really so hard to follow? Is that really not a reply to your post?

There's literally no reason why Melo couldn't continue to look to setup his teammates!!! The coach change and style of play changes don't mean he wasn't still getting a ton of the same touches he always got and so he still was in a position to pass out of doubles or hit shooters and cutters. Melo CHOSE not to do those things.

We lost something like 16 games by 5 or fewer points. A lot of that losing may have been wins with better leadership in the 4th qtr from Melo and Rose. Closing out games is on the shoulders of your best players!!! Perhaps if Melo got his teammates going early in games and saved his energy for closing things may have been better.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"

We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...

I was talking specifically about the all-star year of Amare. He was still pretty good when Melo was here that year. You're arguing Tyson was the 2nd best rather than the best defensive player? I'm not gonna nitpick about each teammate Melo has had. That's just silly. (And you're actually the one who brought Ewing into this.) The bottom line is that if you surround Melo with pretty good teammates, you'll have a .600 or slightly higher team. If you surround him with bad ones, a .400 or slightly lower team. That just doesn't impress me. It sounds like a low impact player. (Or really any random non-super star would probably be .600 with good teammates and .400 with bad ones.)

Amare was never healthy when playing with Melo..Amare got hurt around the all star break, right around the trade...I wasn't sure if it was the back or the knee...He wasn't able to play in the playoffs because of his back..Remember Marv Albert's call during a playoff game, "Melo is out there with 4 guys" against Boston???Amare never played...

Tyson wasn't second best either...Was LeBron alive that year, he was better too..If you push, I'm sure I can come up with as leave 5 other better defensive players..

You won't nitpick because its comical...

Tyson was the best Knicks teammate Melo ever had. They won 54 games together. But even that season, Tyson disappeared in the playoffs with the sniffles. I loved Tyson but his annual playoffs disappearance was really bizarre. Of course in hindsight, the "true Knicks fans" blame Melo for Tyson disappearing.

amazing revisionist history. I remember that series well. Tyson wasnt nearly as bad as you think. Melo's last 2 games of that series were very good. Excellent games from Melo.

Knicks were down 3-1 in that series. Lets look at Melo's #s in those 3 losses:
Game 1: 10-28 (.357%)FGs, 1 assist, 2 TOs, 5 PFs
Game 3: 6-16 (.375%)FGs, 1 assist, 4 TOS, 5 PFs
Game 4: 9-23 (.391%)FGs, 1 assist, 3 TOs, 6 PFs

I mean going back 4 years to ensure Melo doesnt take too much blame is what this board has come to?

Holfesh is still up Isiah's ass, but crzymdups you are simply better than this. Yes Tyson played as poorly. I remember Hibbert killing him in that last game.

That being said excusing Melo is an absolute joke.

In 6 games Melo had 8 assists. 5 steals. 15 turn overs. 29 personal fouls. Melo shot 43%.

We we lose 4-2 and in 3 of those games Melo has the kind of game that ensure the Knicks have zero shot to win. Zilch. This arguement is old and has long been solved. Melo has good games and bad, but his body of work for the playoffs clearly shows a guy who will you shoot you right out of the game more often than not. Chris Paul plays better. Melo just jacks shot after shot. Melo's supporting cast played poorly during that series. You know who else played poorly? Melo. He had a couple huge games to make his averages look good, but we were down 3-1 after 4 games and of those 3 losses nobody played poorer than Melo.

Chris Paul defends, shares the balls and plays well. When you get beat by a great team but play well it happens. When you get beat every year and cant shoot 40% in half your games you are going to take some blame. Only agendas make this topic relevent. Rest of the world knows Melo is a lousy playoff performer.

Bahahaha!! Chris Paul plays Better?? This is what I LOVE about wannabee talk out of their ass armchair GM's. Chris Paul is a facilitating Guard genius. Not a PF. Shooting low 40's when your double teamed and you have guys shooting under 40 sitting on the arc, is what?? What did our SG shoot in that series? PG? Tyson was better than KP and Willy that year. But it's no mystery to anyone, except you, that he was owned by Hibbert. Reason why Pacers won series.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:MDA did in FACT try to put Melo in a Point Forward position and Melo reluctantly went thru the motions. Even still it was one of the best Assist seasons for Melo. If he had bought in fully it could have been even better.

...coach Mike D'Antoni. He pulled Melo out of his prime position as a finisher to attempt a point forward style of play. Melo is not LeBron James, and the clash of styles again gave media fuel to paint Anthony as the stubborn malcontent—especially when 10-day contract reserve Jeremy Lin arrived and went on a month long tear through the league, saving the Knicks' season. While that too would fade away, the idea of trading Anthony to focus on Lin was entertained by many.

http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/03/ca...

Last year we saw DadMelo and it was good. It was something to build on going forward. Melo decided not to continue playing that way which shows he learned NOTHING.

Man, the Knicks could've been great if only 32 yr old Melo decided to be a passing point forward.

One question - was it Melo's decision not to run the triangle starting the year or was that Hornacek? Because I seem to remember Hornacek saying he'd install his offense with "triangle aspects." But I guess I misheard and it was all Melo's fault.

WTF are you talking about??? You post is all over the place! Melo WAS F'n passing the ball more JUST LAST SEASON!!! Why the F didn't he do that more this year even after being called out for NOT PASSING???

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH JEFF! That's all on Melo who should know by now how important it is for him to help his teammates and move the ball. Stop F'n making excuses for Melo! STOP!!!

Could it be that Melo played a different role because there was a new coach who installed a different offense? Is that really so hard to follow? Is that really not a reply to your post?

There's literally no reason why Melo couldn't continue to look to setup his teammates!!! The coach change and style of play changes don't mean he wasn't still getting a ton of the same touches he always got and so he still was in a position to pass out of doubles or hit shooters and cutters. Melo CHOSE not to do those things.

We lost something like 16 games by 5 or fewer points. A lot of that losing may have been wins with better leadership in the 4th qtr from Melo and Rose. Closing out games is on the shoulders of your best players!!! Perhaps if Melo got his teammates going early in games and saved his energy for closing things may have been better.

You have this year's scapegoat. Congrats. Who was it last year, again?

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

Why take it from that angle? How about the players that WIN with less talent because they raise the level of play around them??? In the end Melo and Rose miss the lessons being taught to them about how to use their great talent to help their teams win!!! Selfish Ball doesn't get it done!!!

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

There's a lot of complexity figuring out why a team underachieves. It's one thing if a team's record comes up as part of a discussion but the success of a team should never be the main way of evaluating a player. If anyone ever says they have nothing to criticize Melo for except for his team's records, they're making a bad argument.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:MDA did in FACT try to put Melo in a Point Forward position and Melo reluctantly went thru the motions. Even still it was one of the best Assist seasons for Melo. If he had bought in fully it could have been even better.

...coach Mike D'Antoni. He pulled Melo out of his prime position as a finisher to attempt a point forward style of play. Melo is not LeBron James, and the clash of styles again gave media fuel to paint Anthony as the stubborn malcontent—especially when 10-day contract reserve Jeremy Lin arrived and went on a month long tear through the league, saving the Knicks' season. While that too would fade away, the idea of trading Anthony to focus on Lin was entertained by many.

http://www.complex.com/sports/2017/03/ca...

Last year we saw DadMelo and it was good. It was something to build on going forward. Melo decided not to continue playing that way which shows he learned NOTHING.

Man, the Knicks could've been great if only 32 yr old Melo decided to be a passing point forward.

One question - was it Melo's decision not to run the triangle starting the year or was that Hornacek? Because I seem to remember Hornacek saying he'd install his offense with "triangle aspects." But I guess I misheard and it was all Melo's fault.

WTF are you talking about??? You post is all over the place! Melo WAS F'n passing the ball more JUST LAST SEASON!!! Why the F didn't he do that more this year even after being called out for NOT PASSING???

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH JEFF! That's all on Melo who should know by now how important it is for him to help his teammates and move the ball. Stop F'n making excuses for Melo! STOP!!!

Could it be that Melo played a different role because there was a new coach who installed a different offense? Is that really so hard to follow? Is that really not a reply to your post?

There's literally no reason why Melo couldn't continue to look to setup his teammates!!! The coach change and style of play changes don't mean he wasn't still getting a ton of the same touches he always got and so he still was in a position to pass out of doubles or hit shooters and cutters. Melo CHOSE not to do those things.

We lost something like 16 games by 5 or fewer points. A lot of that losing may have been wins with better leadership in the 4th qtr from Melo and Rose. Closing out games is on the shoulders of your best players!!! Perhaps if Melo got his teammates going early in games and saved his energy for closing things may have been better.

Martin, Exhibit A, on who gets the blame for everything as I have mentioned earlier in this thread.

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

i dont know if you saw my post in response to you a couple pages back, but in case you didn't, i'm still curious what you think of this article.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/2/29/11...

It's been a strange few years for the Knicks. They've seen multiple saviors come and go and tallied nearly as many head coaches over the last five years (four) as playoff wins (seven).

On Sunday, one of those former saviors, Amar'e Stoudemire, shared his thoughts on the downfall of another former savior, Jeremy Lin. Stoudemire suggested that Carmelo Anthony's poor leadership skills were part of the problem.

"Everyone wasn't a fan of [Lin] being the new star," Stoudemire told the media Sunday prior to the Heat's 98-81 road win over the Knicks, via ESPN. "So he didn't stay long. But Jeremy was a great, great guy. Great teammate. He worked hard. He put the work in and we're proud of him to have his moment. A lot of times you gotta enjoy someone's success. And that wasn't the case for us during that stretch.

"You got to enjoy that. You got to let that player enjoy himself and cherish those moments. He was becoming a star and I don't think everybody was pleased with that."

Stoudemire did not mention Anthony by name, but his comments point squarely to the Knicks' star. They also thrust much of the reporting done on the Anthony-Lin relationship in 2012 back into the public sphere. This 2012 ESPN The Magazine story is full of anonymous quotes from Knicks players and sources close to the team claiming that Anthony had an issue with Mike D'Antoni's decision to run the offense through Lin. Anthony was also reportedly jealous of all the attention Lin got in New York.

"Carmelo's dream was to go to New York and be the man," a source reportedly close to several Knicks players told ESPN's Tim Keown. "That's why he fought to get out of Denver, and all of a sudden this little guy nobody's ever heard of is living his dream."

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Anthony's frustration spilled into the public realm when he called the three-year, $25.1 million deal the Rockets offered Lin the summer after Linsanity a "ridiculous contract." While Anthony later clarified his comments, the damage was done. The Knicks never matched that contract and signed Raymond Felton to replace Lin.

And yet, despite all this history, Anthony was taken aback by Stoudemire's comments and denied ever having a problem with Lin.

"That was [four] years ago? I don't know. I don't have no comment about that," Anthony said. "If [Lin] was becoming a star, we should embrace that. I don't know. We didn't embrace it? Was that the word?

"S---, if that was the case then I'd be upset right now with KP [Kristaps Porzingis], if he's talking about me. I doubt if [Stoudemire is] talking about me. I doubt that. I highly doubt that."

On the one hand, you could say that Anthony was proven right. Lin is clearly not the player many thought he could be during the height of Linsanity. He had no business taking the franchise player baton from Anthony.

That said, Stoudemire was in the locker room with Anthony and saw how he handled his role as team leader, especially during Linsanity. Anthony's Porzingis-centered rebuttal is true. He's been an excellent big brother this season and is playing the most unselfish basketball of his career. The problem is that it took a long time for Anthony to change.

Stoudemire's comments don't come as much of a surprise. That Anthony wasn't a huge fan of Lin is common knowledge at this point. But these quotes do shed light on issues that previously held the Knicks back and lend credence to the idea that an Anthony-led team can never be a championship contender.

although it's amar'e, it's still alarming to me, especially the way melo was to perceived to have held the lin situation.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

Nothing silly about it. Its basically Melos career in a nutshell. It's the reason why he's never won much. I like Melo but I'm not gonna be mindless with it. It's time to move on from this not spend time arguing about it.

I find it ironic when someone comes to a discussion board to tell everyone, "I would respond thought fully but I'm not going to waste my time." It's kind of like joining a gym just for the food and saying "I would use the exercise equipment but I'm not going to waste my time"

We can have a discussion..Will you admit Amare was injured his last 3 years as a Knick???..Will you admit Tyson was not DPOY that year and DHow should have been???..No yopu will never admit to those things because it doesn't suit your argument..SPIN...

I had a feeling you'd basically trash all of the players I listed. You mentioned Ewing before. He had an all-star teammate only once in his entire prime and twice in his 17 seasons but he still took his teams far. Melo's teams basically go around .600 if you surround him with very good teammates and around .400 if you surround him with bad ones. You know what that sounds like? A low impact chucker.
Regarding the plus minus stat, I include it because of its simplicity. I do think looking at win shares and the player tracking data (especially for defense) is better. But I've never said you should ignore the +/- stats for any player.

Bonn you alway do this...You act like the fact you present are in a vacuum and it's the only factors that affect what you are focused on...How on Earth can you compare Ewing situation to Melo..How on earth Bonn???????..Ewing had Pat Riley as a coach, one of the all time greats...Melo had 5 coaches in the last 6 years...You think that might be a factor??..Ewing ws on one of the all time great defensive teams, You think that might be a factor??..Ewing played with essentially the same core for years upon years, you think that might be a factor?? Ewibng knew what to expect from his front office and the style of play didn't change twice per season, you think that might be a factor???

Was Amare hurt the final three years as a Knick which impacted his career permanently??? You never answered in your lengthy response... Who ws the better defender the year Tyson won DPOY, Tyson or DHow???..Again, You never answered...

I was talking specifically about the all-star year of Amare. He was still pretty good when Melo was here that year. You're arguing Tyson was the 2nd best rather than the best defensive player? I'm not gonna nitpick about each teammate Melo has had. That's just silly. (And you're actually the one who brought Ewing into this.) The bottom line is that if you surround Melo with pretty good teammates, you'll have a .600 or slightly higher team. If you surround him with bad ones, a .400 or slightly lower team. That just doesn't impress me. It sounds like a low impact player. (Or really any random non-super star would probably be .600 with good teammates and .400 with bad ones.)

Amare was never healthy when playing with Melo..Amare got hurt around the all star break, right around the trade...I wasn't sure if it was the back or the knee...He wasn't able to play in the playoffs because of his back..Remember Marv Albert's call during a playoff game, "Melo is out there with 4 guys" against Boston???Amare never played...

Tyson wasn't second best either...Was LeBron alive that year, he was better too..If you push, I'm sure I can come up with as leave 5 other better defensive players..

You won't nitpick because its comical...

Tyson was the best Knicks teammate Melo ever had. They won 54 games together. But even that season, Tyson disappeared in the playoffs with the sniffles. I loved Tyson but his annual playoffs disappearance was really bizarre. Of course in hindsight, the "true Knicks fans" blame Melo for Tyson disappearing.

amazing revisionist history. I remember that series well. Tyson wasnt nearly as bad as you think. Melo's last 2 games of that series were very good. Excellent games from Melo.

Knicks were down 3-1 in that series. Lets look at Melo's #s in those 3 losses:
Game 1: 10-28 (.357%)FGs, 1 assist, 2 TOs, 5 PFs
Game 3: 6-16 (.375%)FGs, 1 assist, 4 TOS, 5 PFs
Game 4: 9-23 (.391%)FGs, 1 assist, 3 TOs, 6 PFs

I mean going back 4 years to ensure Melo doesnt take too much blame is what this board has come to?

Holfesh is still up Isiah's ass, but crzymdups you are simply better than this. Yes Tyson played as poorly. I remember Hibbert killing him in that last game.

That being said excusing Melo is an absolute joke.

In 6 games Melo had 8 assists. 5 steals. 15 turn overs. 29 personal fouls. Melo shot 43%.

We we lose 4-2 and in 3 of those games Melo has the kind of game that ensure the Knicks have zero shot to win. Zilch. This arguement is old and has long been solved. Melo has good games and bad, but his body of work for the playoffs clearly shows a guy who will you shoot you right out of the game more often than not. Chris Paul plays better. Melo just jacks shot after shot. Melo's supporting cast played poorly during that series. You know who else played poorly? Melo. He had a couple huge games to make his averages look good, but we were down 3-1 after 4 games and of those 3 losses nobody played poorer than Melo.

Chris Paul defends, shares the balls and plays well. When you get beat by a great team but play well it happens. When you get beat every year and cant shoot 40% in half your games you are going to take some blame. Only agendas make this topic relevent. Rest of the world knows Melo is a lousy playoff performer.

Bahahaha!! Chris Paul plays Better?? This is what I LOVE about wannabee talk out of their ass armchair GM's. Chris Paul is a facilitating Guard genius. Not a PF. Shooting low 40's when your double teamed and you have guys shooting under 40 sitting on the arc, is what?? What did our SG shoot in that series? PG? Tyson was better than KP and Willy that year. But it's no mystery to anyone, except you, that he was owned by Hibbert. Reason why Pacers won series.

Also, Tyson being a complete non-factor allowed Hibbert to come over and help on Melo. The only times the Knicks played well that series was when complete NBA journey man Chris Copeland was in at center drawing SOME attention away from Melo. If Tyson had been scoring 13ppg shooting 60% in the paint, Melo would've been open more and shot better. Basketball 101. But it's easier to just blame Melo and say Chris Paul is a better player. Lol.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

Why take it from that angle? How about the players that WIN with less talent because they raise the level of play around them??? In the end Melo and Rose miss the lessons being taught to them about how to use their great talent to help their teams win!!! Selfish Ball doesn't get it done!!!

Answer the question, Claire.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

holfresh wrote:Harden needs to go out and score 30/40 a night..Westbrook needed to go out and score 30/40 a night..MJ needed to go out and score 30/40 a night...Kobe needed to go out an core 30/40 a night..Silly commentary and you just want to take a shot at Melo...Have at it, you can find plenty of help here...

wow mentioning melo with all those guys is pure comedy. but it's really funny you should mention james harden... isn't it ironic that harden is averaging near a triple-double with the coach that melo was to stubborn to adapt to and decided to stop playing for? if that's not exhibitA of how melo has handled his whole entire career in the NBA, i'm not sure what is.

Yet another one of your silly post out of the rafters to drop on us..I would respond thoughtfully but you don't reciprocate so I won't waste my time...

actually, funny you say that. the last time you said that to me, and i forget which thread it was now, but it was like a week ago? i responded directly to your post and what a surprise, you never answered. so maybe you should heed your own advice and holier than thou attitude.

and to be honest, if you "responded thoughtfully" (which btw is something you never do) you would be saying something negative about melo. so instead of doing that, you just deflect, to cover your own melo-loving ass. it's cool, we all see it man.

still waiting for a response holfresh. thanks. although, i dont think this surprises anyone. you deflect and run, every.single.time. but yet, i'm the one who "drops in" please. the irony is real.

I deflect and run, really??? Me??...Jokes...You and Bonn play these games..here goes..

Harden plays the PG role which is the most important role in MDA's offense..But you know this...Melo is not a PG..But you know this..Melo was asked to stand in the corner and shoot threes while playing with MDA..But you know this...So you asked how does Harden thrive in an MDA offense because he accepted his role and Melo wasn't a fit in MDA offense..Do you now understand why I think it's a dumb question/statement and not worth a response??...Bonn does stuff like that as well...

PG role and yet he even rebounds better than Melo! It's crazy to ever compare the two.

Ok...Do you think they will get beyond the second round of the playoffs???

Sorry I was making that comment half-jokingly. I'm not sure. I think Harden brings much more to the table than Melo and I think Houston got a steal when they traded for him. But I'm still not the biggest Harden fan. He has his weaknesses and I'd have a lot of reluctance giving him a supermax contract. That said, in the east, I think Houston would make it to the conference finals most years. Not sure about in the west though.

I know many here don't care...Harden plays zero defense..ZERO...Melo and Harden are volume scorers..They put up the same stats in their primes but Harden is a better assist guy..Harden is playing a different role with MDA..They will lose in the second round..Just like Melo..

The only time Knick fans care about defense is with regards to Melo and Rose...Everyone else not playing defense is fine with them...

I wouldn't agree with any of the claims you made there, but what exactly is your point? Melo is comparable to Harden - a guy who you're not a fan of?

Also, Melo's in his 14th season, 32 yrs old. Harden is in his 8th, 27yrs old. Is 27yr old Harden better than 32yr old Melo? Yes. Is this really shocking to you?

No, it's why I knew that giving him the then largest contract in the world and throwing in an NTC was ridiculous. (I'm still waiting for the point in the new CBA where Melo's contract becomes a bargain!) But I'd take 27 year old Harden over 27 year old Melo too.

Who would you have given the money to instead Bonn???

We've been through this many times. I've answered how I would have spent the money but you're obviously not satisfied with my answers and won't be. The thread is about evaluating Melo, not whether Bonn1997 would be an awesome GM anyway.

Your approach to free agency is unrealistic...Until you approach it the way the NBA world works, it's going to be difficult to see your point...Somehow, you believe undervalued players are out there ready to jump into your lap...Everyone pays up for talent except you, who will maintain a winning organization, with on the cheap talent, and they sign for what you offer at measured rates...Fantasy..

So start another thread on what people's plan as GM would be and we could actually debate it. That has nothing to do with this thread. (And you're description of my plan is ridiculous anyway.) Besides, it's too much fun seeing people trash Melo. I don't want to derail the discussion.

..Ok will pick it up another time...

crzymdups wrote:Imagine how many championships Ewing would've won if he had just embraced the point forward role Don Nelson drew up for him. But nope, he just wanted to play selfish post ball. Sad.

I believe it was Anthony Mason he wanted to play Point Forward. He did want to open the floor with Ewing not clogging the lane. It was too far ahead of it's time.

When a slumping Starks was removed from the starting lineup, he told the media that Nelson was a "nightmare." Anthony Mason--around whom Nelson had designed a point-forward offense--complained that there was no continuity in the Knicks' attack. All-Star center Patrick Ewing, the Knicks' main low-post threat, wondered aloud why Nelson positioned him so far from the basket. And the postgame press conferences of Nelson, once a media darling, turned grim. "He stopped being himself," said Knicks assistant Don Chaney, a longtime Nelson friend. "This team wouldn't allow him to be himself."

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Imagine how many championships Ewing would've won if he had just embraced the point forward role Don Nelson drew up for him. But nope, he just wanted to play selfish post ball. Sad.

I believe it was Anthony Mason he wanted to play Point Forward. He did want to open the floor with Ewing not clogging the lane. It was too far ahead of it's time.

When a slumping Starks was removed from the starting lineup, he told the media that Nelson was a "nightmare." Anthony Mason--around whom Nelson had designed a point-forward offense--complained that there was no continuity in the Knicks' attack. All-Star center Patrick Ewing, the Knicks' main low-post threat, wondered aloud why Nelson positioned him so far from the basket. And the postgame press conferences of Nelson, once a media darling, turned grim. "He stopped being himself," said Knicks assistant Don Chaney, a longtime Nelson friend. "This team wouldn't allow him to be himself."

https://www.si.com/vault/1996/03/18/2110...

It's so weird that Van Gundy was able to come in and win by putting Ewing back in the post.

crzymdups wrote:Imagine how many championships Ewing would've won if he had just embraced the point forward role Don Nelson drew up for him. But nope, he just wanted to play selfish post ball. Sad.

LOL. How I use to love, "The Ewing is Trash" talk. People love to hate. Is Melo perfect? Heck No. Did he need to get other players involved more? Yes. Was he a phenomenal scorer and not this shell the Knicks have created? Hell yes!

I tend to think it might be around 33. Let's make it 34 in honor of Oak. Oak did have the biggest game in the Garden this year after all.

Really, Melo should be celebrated for getting us a top five pick. But oh wait, getting a top five pick was somehow part of Phil's masterplan, even though it's all Melo's fault. Do I have that right?

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Just out of curiousity.

Do you guys blame Jimmy Butler for the dysfunction in Chicago?

Was it KG's fault the Timberwolves sucked and he didn't win jack until he got traded to Boston and teamed up with two other actual stars in their primes?

Is it Chris Paul's fault the Clippers never made it out of the second round?

Is it Anthony Davis's fault the Pelicans suck?

Was it Barkley's fault the Sixers never won a championship?

Was it Chris Webber's fault the Kings didn't make it past the Lakers?

Just wondering where these other NBA greats who couldn't get over the hump on dysfunctional or even great teams stand in your minds.

I looked at this and one thing jumped out.

They're all good to great defensive players.

Your friend Carmelo isn't.

Webber is good to great defensive player? Innnnnnnteresting. I think Webber just spat out his coffee wherever he is and he doesn't even know why.

But, okay, sure... they're almost all better passers and defenders than Melo. Melo is a better scorer than almost all of them. Different players have different strengths, very few guys are great at everything. So... why did their teams suck if they not only passed, but also defended?