Knicks · Sign the "Fire Phil and Dolan" petition. (page 1)

Was at the Boston game and saw a few guys holding fire Phil and Dolan poster pre game. As they don't allow that stuff inside. Nor former Knick PF's.

Reasons:
Dolan should have hired experienced GM. Ie. Ujiri or any other young GM (Briggs?)
Phil has lead clueless fans to believe he has tanked and reset on purpose last 3 years.
Phil has made it clear Scheme is more important than our future.
We need a GM that helps our reputation and perception within the NBA, not make it worse.
Other than Gaines picking KP, Phil has shown a bad sense of talent evaluation.
Noah will be our Curry of 2016. (Ironic that they both came from Bulls)
Phil represents the past and we definately don't want to go back in time.

I am signing. And would suggest to give a guy like Mark Jackson or any other former star who has a good understanding of what it takes to win in today's NBA, a chance at a true rebuild. One that points to a new future, not one built on delussional egocentric antiquated ideas. If we are going to rebuild, let's do it with young minds, all the way across the board, that are looking to work hard at building a future, not looking for a paid pension in 2 years.

When it's all said and done, Phil will have gotten rid of Melo and committed to a rebuild for the first time in 30 years for this franchise and allow us to have KP and possibly two top-10 lottery picks. I have no issues with Phil. Don't lump him into the same category as Dolan.

I'd prefer to see Phil finish what he started rather than start all over again in hopes that the next guy will have a plan that works. Until we see what Phil does this summer we'd be stopping in the middle and I don't want to do that at this point.

I can understand the frustration but making wholesale change doesn't guarantee success. Let's see what happens this summer before calling for more change in the front office.

nixluva wrote:I'd prefer to see Phil finish what he started rather than start all over again in hopes that the next guy will have a plan that works. Until we see what Phil does this summer we'd be stopping in the middle and I don't want to do that at this point.

I can understand the frustration but making wholesale change doesn't guarantee success. Let's see what happens this summer before calling for more change in the front office.

If he gets out of the coach's way, makes 3 solid picks and somehow gets rid of Noah, I will let him finish the year.

Dolan at it again. How I would love for him to take a swing so someone knocks him out.

http://nypost.com/2017/04/05/james-dolan...

90sKnicks wrote:When it's all said and done, Phil will have gotten rid of Melo and committed to a rebuild for the first time in 30 years for this franchise and allow us to have KP and possibly two top-10 lottery picks. I have no issues with Phil. Don't lump him into the same category as Dolan.

You mean 3rd time. But actually many more. 2001 through 2012.

As for Phil...When it's all said and done. Phil will be looked as a failure in NY. As a matter of fact, He is already viewed as one. Also, we will have to reset, yet again, and start to teach a brand new system to all our young guys, once he is gone. Tanking(not on purpose) and getting a decent player with a lottery pick (Gaines pick) is something the lowest level basketball guy could have done for us just as well. And if you think Phil has not damaged the perception of this organization, as much as Dolan this year, your sadly mistaken.

HofstraBBall wrote:

90sKnicks wrote:When it's all said and done, Phil will have gotten rid of Melo and committed to a rebuild for the first time in 30 years for this franchise and allow us to have KP and possibly two top-10 lottery picks. I have no issues with Phil. Don't lump him into the same category as Dolan.

You mean 3rd time. But actually many more. 2001 through 2012.

As for Phil...When it's all said and done. Phil will be looked as a failure in NY. As a matter of fact, He is already viewed as one. Also, we will have to reset, yet again, and start to teach a brand new system to all our young guys, once he is gone. Tanking(not on purpose) and getting a decent player with a lottery pick (Gaines pick) is something the lowest level basketball guy could have done for us just as well. And if you think Phil has not damaged the perception of this organization, as much as Dolan this year, your sadly mistaken.

Isn't this roster Phil's third rebuild already anyway?
How many times has he purged the roster by replacing players he acquired and even replacing the replacements?

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

90sKnicks wrote:When it's all said and done, Phil will have gotten rid of Melo and committed to a rebuild for the first time in 30 years for this franchise and allow us to have KP and possibly two top-10 lottery picks. I have no issues with Phil. Don't lump him into the same category as Dolan.

You mean 3rd time. But actually many more. 2001 through 2012.

As for Phil...When it's all said and done. Phil will be looked as a failure in NY. As a matter of fact, He is already viewed as one. Also, we will have to reset, yet again, and start to teach a brand new system to all our young guys, once he is gone. Tanking(not on purpose) and getting a decent player with a lottery pick (Gaines pick) is something the lowest level basketball guy could have done for us just as well. And if you think Phil has not damaged the perception of this organization, as much as Dolan this year, your sadly mistaken.

Isn't this roster Phil's third rebuild already anyway?
How many times has he purged the roster by replacing players he acquired and even replacing the replacements?

Yep. Some site espn? puts out a continuity stat for roster turnover. The Knicks have been around the bottom after all three of Phil's resets. Also, he has gone into the season thinking he has put together a competitive roster every year. I don't understand the accolades for accidentally tanking for the last three years.

The failure to field a winning team is one thing but it's not the whole story. I want to see what Phil does this summer. Dolan says he's going to let Phil finish his contract and I think that's the right thing to do.

Phil has a chance to draft another core talent and hopefully the team gets lucky in the Lottery. We have some good pieces but we need more Frontline talent. I actually like the younger players Phil has brought in. I'm hoping for even more talented players to be added with the same kind of Team Oriented type of players.

Dolan is the one who can fire not the other way around.
Phil accepted the challenge to deal with complete junk of an organization under crappy owner.
I think he did a pretty good job under circumstances.
But the results of it will be visible in 3-5 years from now.
We still carry the dead weight in Melo and will be in this predicament for another 2 years.
You can fire everyone but team will not be any good for a long time.

Put Isiah in place of Phil, and we would either be in the same situation or better. It's amazing how this guy gets so many passes. I wasn't a fan before he came here....and he hasn't done anything to change my mind. He gets no credit for KP....Sorry. If anybody gets that credit, give it to Fisher for going on a winning streak. KP landed on our lap and Phil had no choice!

Firing Dolan signs is retarded. Firing Phil signs is a little early right now. But he definitely used up his nine lives. Lets hope Noah comes back to form and Melo plays up to his max value next season. Hope for KP and Billy to improve....And a solid draft pick(s), before I cast my judgement.....But keep in mind, I was never a huge supporter from the beginning. The only thing I liked about hiring Phil, is that he was part of the last championship team....Hopefully that brings some good carma.

blkexec wrote:Put Isiah in place of Phil, and we would either be in the same situation or better. It's amazing how this guy gets so many passes. I wasn't a fan before he came here....and he hasn't done anything to change my mind. He gets no credit for KP....Sorry. If anybody gets that credit, give it to Fisher for going on a winning streak. KP landed on our lap and Phil had no choice!

Firing Dolan signs is retarded. Firing Phil signs is a little early right now. But he definitely used up his nine lives. Lets hope Noah comes back to form and Melo plays up to his max value next season. Hope for KP and Billy to improve....And a solid draft pick(s), before I cast my judgement.....But keep in mind, I was never a huge supporter from the beginning. The only thing I liked about hiring Phil, is that he was part of the last championship team....Hopefully that brings some good carma.

It is amazing that some bbal fans think that winning team can be build in 2-3 years after being the below bottom crap...
10 years is plausible... but not always works.
People just have no clue...

nixluva wrote: I want to see what Phil does this summer.

Historically, in modern sports history, this proves to be a mistake. If the guy in place is not your long term guy, you ax him and do it fast. All of the pro sports are littered with test cases of lame duck GMs and coaches with GM powers who have made deals , bad ones, in terms of personnel, to try to save their jobs. Short term moves that will hurt the franchise long term, but the decision maker in place does not care, there's a 99 percent chance they will be gone forever by then.

The Magic were a test case, Dwight Howard was on the verge of leaving and Otis Smith was under the gun to do something, do anything, then made a series of bad trades to try to appease Howard and built somewhat of a contender. Under pressure, they moved Gortat for literally nothing at the time, violating most of the basic trade maxims in the league ( never trade big for small, young for old, healthy for injured, etc, etc)

You see the negative effects even right now. Lee, Rose and Noah were short term moves. They will hurt long term, but Jackson is considering his personal legacy and wanting to at least say he got the Knicks to the playoffs, even as an 8th seed in a weakened East that is nothing better than a mediocre treadmill team.

As for Dolan, sports history confirms you can win with a corrupt owner, an idiot owner, a racist owner, a criminal owner, etc, etc. All he has to do is sign the checks, hire at least ONE right person to run the franchise and get out of the way.

As for Jackson, you don't fire a legacy like Jackson, esp one with a NY Knicks legacy. You cite health reasons and transfer him to a "special advisor role", one much like Jerry West has with the Warriors, more of a ceremonial role, and give him his paychecks and let him soft retire. You hire a young up and coming GM to actually run the team. In order to do this, you have to get Melo off the roster as well, same time or first. So as to not lend the appearance that a player won a power struggle over the good of the franchise. ( This is why the Jazz correctly dumped Deron Williams immediately when he drove Jerry Sloan insane and into retirement)

The benefit of a "no name" young GM is they don't have a legacy to protect. They aren't going to short term think about the next season at the cost of the next 10. I keep hearing that Jackson doesn't trade away picks. Well he clearly doesn't talk to other GMs ( Please do not push the Steve Mills is the 'worker' GM role in the franchise, if you are the ultimate decision maker and you don't actually talk to people or do any scouting of your own, something is very very wrong) How hard is it to not gut your draft assets if you never talk to anyone?

I say it again and again, a functional rebuild from where the Knicks currently stand is NOT THAT HARD. The basic blueprint given the talent scarcity and limited personnel moves in the league almost force teams into a very specific path in an early rebuild. And yet the Knicks make it insanely harder than it ever has to be. It might not pan out the way everyone hopes ( there's a difference between a guarantee of result and a guarantee of opportunity) but it's giving the franchise the best chance for the future.

There is some low level intern on the Spurs or Warriors back end front office who could literally do a better job right now than Phil Jackson running the Knicks. At least that kid is watching game tape and building networks and engaging with players around the league to better understand the current NBA marketplace. Every dollar Dolan gave Jackson was literally setting money on fire.

For this franchise to move forward, Jackson AND Melo need to go. Anyone here really want him to have access to giving out another crappy four year deal or two before someone finally takes away his golden pen of power with the franchise?

Change is not always improvement.
Replacing Phil just buys impatient fans time to hope.
As often said, while the team is not performing as expected, other than Noah's contract there has not been any long term damage done.
Billy King had to go because the team was deep in the hole and they had to go thru the pain of a rebuild without any benefit of their own picks to add talent this season, and next. Billy had leveraged them up and I suppose his thing was not going to be hire a young coach and rebuild with deep value players.
Billy King did what he did with the blessing and full financial support of his owner. In fact, It very well could have have been ownership that dictated the goals of the organization.
Same with Dolan and Isiah.
Under Phil, there is a policy now to not trade picks. You think Phil could have added a player or two this season mid year to bolster the playoff aspirations? Anyone think Willy and a first round pick would not yield a pretty good starter in return and Knicks make playoffs?

Knicks make the playoffs with Melo, Dolan is happy,, fans are happy, and then next year we have to sign Rose because team can't go backwards and since we didn't have a first round pick............

If Knicks don't get Rose and sign Noah, do we still make playoffs? I doubt it.
Dolan is not selling the team.
And I don't really care about what Jimmy Dolan does or what Oak says anymore. Im not interested in off court drama.

CrushAlot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

90sKnicks wrote:When it's all said and done, Phil will have gotten rid of Melo and committed to a rebuild for the first time in 30 years for this franchise and allow us to have KP and possibly two top-10 lottery picks. I have no issues with Phil. Don't lump him into the same category as Dolan.

You mean 3rd time. But actually many more. 2001 through 2012.

As for Phil...When it's all said and done. Phil will be looked as a failure in NY. As a matter of fact, He is already viewed as one. Also, we will have to reset, yet again, and start to teach a brand new system to all our young guys, once he is gone. Tanking(not on purpose) and getting a decent player with a lottery pick (Gaines pick) is something the lowest level basketball guy could have done for us just as well. And if you think Phil has not damaged the perception of this organization, as much as Dolan this year, your sadly mistaken.

Isn't this roster Phil's third rebuild already anyway?
How many times has he purged the roster by replacing players he acquired and even replacing the replacements?

Yep. Some site espn? puts out a continuity stat for roster turnover. The Knicks have been around the bottom after all three of Phil's resets. Also, he has gone into the season thinking he has put together a competitive roster every year. I don't understand the accolades for accidentally tanking for the last three years.

These comments are very disingenuous. And sound like crooked politicians.

Knicks didn't have a lot of resources to work with over the years other then trading away future picks. Their main resource was cap space. Yet after the top tier talent stayed with their teams or went on to contenders. Knicks were left to pick from B&C level options. Given the lack of available A talent. Phil handed out short term risk averse deals to guys like Affalo and D.Williams etc. While he did sign Lopez to a long term deal. There wasn't many young long term young center options available to the Knicks outside of that. Plus Knicks didn't have their draft pick that off season. So Phil would have to juggle trying to field a competitive team with limited resources while not making the mistake of sacrificing future assets to make playoffs immediatly due to not having a draft pick which many GMs would have done.

Who am I kidding, this is a message board. People will cherry pick who circumstance effects.

arkrud wrote:

blkexec wrote:Put Isiah in place of Phil, and we would either be in the same situation or better. It's amazing how this guy gets so many passes. I wasn't a fan before he came here....and he hasn't done anything to change my mind. He gets no credit for KP....Sorry. If anybody gets that credit, give it to Fisher for going on a winning streak. KP landed on our lap and Phil had no choice!

Firing Dolan signs is retarded. Firing Phil signs is a little early right now. But he definitely used up his nine lives. Lets hope Noah comes back to form and Melo plays up to his max value next season. Hope for KP and Billy to improve....And a solid draft pick(s), before I cast my judgement.....But keep in mind, I was never a huge supporter from the beginning. The only thing I liked about hiring Phil, is that he was part of the last championship team....Hopefully that brings some good carma.

It is amazing that some bbal fans think that winning team can be build in 2-3 years after being the below bottom crap...
10 years is plausible... but not always works.
People just have no clue...

Funny, are you not the guy who, every chance he gets, gets on Melo for not doing it in just one!

Who ever said we should be winning a chip? Phil broke up a 54 win team. Said he needed to get rid of players that "didn't play the right way" "weren't his kind of players". Two who went on to contribute to championship team. Two who, watching yesterday's Cavs game, are more athletic and better defenders than anyone we have. He signed Melo to max, under the impression he was building to win but went on to reset 3 times? His draft picks, in first 2 years, have all failed or most have been released/traded. Except for lotto Gaines pick and Gaines Wioly pick. ((Not so impressive as it was from same team he scouted) And handcuffed us for 4 years with his (classic young movement rebuild ) trade for that
injury free athletic Noah guy.

Seriously get the fuck outta here with this thread

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote: I want to see what Phil does this summer.

Historically, in modern sports history, this proves to be a mistake. If the guy in place is not your long term guy, you ax him and do it fast. All of the pro sports are littered with test cases of lame duck GMs and coaches with GM powers who have made deals , bad ones, in terms of personnel, to try to save their jobs. Short term moves that will hurt the franchise long term, but the decision maker in place does not care, there's a 99 percent chance they will be gone forever by then.

The Magic were a test case, Dwight Howard was on the verge of leaving and Otis Smith was under the gun to do something, do anything, then made a series of bad trades to try to appease Howard and built somewhat of a contender. Under pressure, they moved Gortat for literally nothing at the time, violating most of the basic trade maxims in the league ( never trade big for small, young for old, healthy for injured, etc, etc)

You see the negative effects even right now. Lee, Rose and Noah were short term moves. They will hurt long term, but Jackson is considering his personal legacy and wanting to at least say he got the Knicks to the playoffs, even as an 8th seed in a weakened East that is nothing better than a mediocre treadmill team.

As for Dolan, sports history confirms you can win with a corrupt owner, an idiot owner, a racist owner, a criminal owner, etc, etc. All he has to do is sign the checks, hire at least ONE right person to run the franchise and get out of the way.

As for Jackson, you don't fire a legacy like Jackson, esp one with a NY Knicks legacy. You cite health reasons and transfer him to a "special advisor role", one much like Jerry West has with the Warriors, more of a ceremonial role, and give him his paychecks and let him soft retire. You hire a young up and coming GM to actually run the team. In order to do this, you have to get Melo off the roster as well, same time or first. So as to not lend the appearance that a player won a power struggle over the good of the franchise. ( This is why the Jazz correctly dumped Deron Williams immediately when he drove Jerry Sloan insane and into retirement)

The benefit of a "no name" young GM is they don't have a legacy to protect. They aren't going to short term think about the next season at the cost of the next 10. I keep hearing that Jackson doesn't trade away picks. Well he clearly doesn't talk to other GMs ( Please do not push the Steve Mills is the 'worker' GM role in the franchise, if you are the ultimate decision maker and you don't actually talk to people or do any scouting of your own, something is very very wrong) How hard is it to not gut your draft assets if you never talk to anyone?

I say it again and again, a functional rebuild from where the Knicks currently stand is NOT THAT HARD. The basic blueprint given the talent scarcity and limited personnel moves in the league almost force teams into a very specific path in an early rebuild. And yet the Knicks make it insanely harder than it ever has to be. It might not pan out the way everyone hopes ( there's a difference between a guarantee of result and a guarantee of opportunity) but it's giving the franchise the best chance for the future.

There is some low level intern on the Spurs or Warriors back end front office who could literally do a better job right now than Phil Jackson running the Knicks. At least that kid is watching game tape and building networks and engaging with players around the league to better understand the current NBA marketplace. Every dollar Dolan gave Jackson was literally setting money on fire.

For this franchise to move forward, Jackson AND Melo need to go. Anyone here really want him to have access to giving out another crappy four year deal or two before someone finally takes away his golden pen of power with the franchise?

There's a lot of good stuff in this post. My one disagreement is I don't think dumping Phil is the answer. I get that he's the lightening rod of criticism because expectations were high. Who wouldn't want a Knicks dynasty and he's the closest hope we've had for one in 40+ years.

However, we need to keep in mind, he's the president and in that regard was supposed to be more in line with West's special advisor role. Insisting on a structure and a vision -- what type of player (e.g., length and skilled, even if less explosive), what type of system on the floor, what type of institution, how do we create and fill a pipeline of talent. People can caste him as lazy or whatever, but name another president who gets into practices and tries to instruct. He's damned if he does (that's meddling with the coach) and he's damned if he doesn't (just collecting Dolan's checks)

The person getting the pass is our GM who as far as I can tell does nothing but is supposed to have connections (though not sure we have seen one iota of benefit from that). I'd love for someone to correct me of this misimpression and explain how Mills contributes (you can add Allan Houston for extra credit).

My suggestion would be we upgrade the GM role with better assistants or even replacements.

In the Phil era, there has been one legitimate criticism and two borderline legitimate one: (legitimate) His FA signings are a C at best. He has done a good-great job w lower tier players (e.g., Oquinn) but mostly missed on the sexier picks (noah, rose). (borderline) His trades are suspect. People can reasonably complain whether we got fair value for JR, or Chandler etc. The reason I put this in borderline is I think there were other motives, e.g., shedding perceived cancers. (borderline) whether it was fully to attempt the competitive rebuild, i.e., try and put people around Melo while at the same time building/drafting youth. Hindsight is 20-20 and we now see that is too fine a tight rope. You're either in it to win it at the moment (e.g., trade KP for other vets to surround Melo -- booo), or youre building to win in the near future (e.g., as GS eventually ages)

EnySpree wrote:Seriously get the fuck outta here with this thread

You get the fuck outta here. With your smart ass, no frills, no comment, simple agenda, no brain, no point making, toy dog barking ass!!

Your the moron responding, with zero counter point, to a thread you think has no point. Genius!!

Dolan is a clown but that is something we can't do anything about.

Phil has work to do and I actually think he's encouraged by the way the younger players are responding to coaching and more playing time. I think Phil is a B Ball junky and this time of year he can see his vision and ideas on the court more clearly since the kids don't resist instruction and eagerly go out and try to execute the game plan.

Phil and his team have a TON of work to do and this is not the time to be making drastic changes!!! Dolan is right to let Phil finish his contract and see where things end up.

arkrud wrote:

blkexec wrote:Put Isiah in place of Phil, and we would either be in the same situation or better. It's amazing how this guy gets so many passes. I wasn't a fan before he came here....and he hasn't done anything to change my mind. He gets no credit for KP....Sorry. If anybody gets that credit, give it to Fisher for going on a winning streak. KP landed on our lap and Phil had no choice!

Firing Dolan signs is retarded. Firing Phil signs is a little early right now. But he definitely used up his nine lives. Lets hope Noah comes back to form and Melo plays up to his max value next season. Hope for KP and Billy to improve....And a solid draft pick(s), before I cast my judgement.....But keep in mind, I was never a huge supporter from the beginning. The only thing I liked about hiring Phil, is that he was part of the last championship team....Hopefully that brings some good carma.

It is amazing that some bbal fans think that winning team can be build in 2-3 years after being the below bottom crap...
10 years is plausible... but not always works.
People just have no clue...

Boston Celtic and Miami Heat might think otherwise. But in general I agree with you.