Knicks · Rosen reviews Knicks season (page 3)
crzymdups wrote:Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:Thanks crzy!!Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis
If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play
If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor
Yeah, there was almost no mention of defense. This is the drawback of Phil's obsession with the Triangle. Defense is the true issue with this team. You can win with any efficient offense in the NBA. You can't win with a bad defense. Knicks have literally the worst defense in the league since Phil started and he keeps obsessing over offense. He's missing the point.
don't forget to double down on Rambis. That usually is soothing to you.Wait, I don't understand - so you think Rambis has done a good job? Or wait, we shouldn't question him at all because it's all Melo? Do you have a point?
I don't blame Rambis, no applaud him.
Nalod if you read me I am about 60-70% complimentary of him and think he has held his bargain with the exception of not buying into the system he said he would. For that, I don't blame Phil as most haters do.
Melo said he was down with the system. Why would he resign and offer his allegence to phil and the triangle?
I fail at what is sarcasm in my written tone so it gets picked up as an argument. I find Rambis bashing funny because he has been a successful assistant and player under Phil, but because he is loyal to him he must be incompetent. Seems like we give coaching a pass and blame PHil for any confusion or mistakes by them. Of course they get all the credit for Willy, KP, Kuz, Ron, Etc etc.........
many thought Rambis was defacto coach to replace fish and have dreamt that Dolan directed him to not hire him. That's some funny stuff. Phil hate runs deep and makes some creative!!I've started several threads saying I don't think Hornacek did a good job. He seemed to lose the team. To me - his very first pre-season game where the players said afterward he didn't mention defense once in their pre-game planning was a MAJOR red flag. Gave up 130pts to Houston and honestly, it could've been more if Houston was really even trying.
I've also said that I think Phil gave up far too quickly on Fisher right when it seemed Fisher had turned a corner. Blaming Fisher for the Knicks getting some injuries to Melo, Calderon, and Lance Thomas was crappy. Also, remember last season we didn't hear very much about Melo being a ball hog and not playing D. Because Fish got Melo's trust.
One moment I'll never forget about Fisher's coaching here - the Knicks lost a last second game in San Antonio. Melo drove on Kawhi, and dished out to an open corner three for Jose Calderon. Calderon missed. Melo looked distraught - he played a hell of a game and wanted to win badly. Fisher ran out on to the court and said into Melo's ear - "you made the right play."
That's a hell of a coach.
Phil should've trusted Fisher more. He should've focused on his real job - getting Melo and Fisher more help on the court.
But, sure, right, I have an agenda and it's actually all Melo's fault.
I agree with the above. But Fish also hitting on players girls? Is that true? The Govan/Barnes angle on the surface didn't bother me but many have written about this being breach among the players on top of him hitting on players girls? I thought Kerr was the right hire as was Fish. I can see phil being pained have had to fire him for non basketball reasons. Fish said the whole event did weigh on his dismissal. Really, we don't have all the facts and I can't say much about it. I was more in favor of letting fish sort thru the growing pains as a young coach.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...
Unselfish Carmelo Anthony sees Jose Calderon miss as Knicks fall just short to Spurs 100-99
Carmelo Anthony passes on the final play, something he may not have done a few years ago.
BY
FRANK ISOLA
SAN ANTONIO – Carmelo Anthony was filled with self-doubt immediately after Jose Calderon’s corner jumper sailed long and the Knicks’ wild comeback fell short.
Did I make the right play?
“Yeah, that was kinda what I was leaning over thinking about,” Anthony said following the Knicks’ heart-wrenching 100-99 loss to the San Antonio Spurs on Friday. “Did I make the right play? After seeing it multiple times after the game I felt I made the right play on that.”
Those were precisely the words from head coach Derek Fisher, who consoled Anthony on the court afterwards. With the Knicks fighting to establish a winning culture and encouraging Anthony to trust his teammates, the moment could be a turning point in the season even if the result was a loss.
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“Carmelo,” Fisher said, “made the right basketball play.”
The Knicks rallied from a 12-point deficit in the final five minutes and had possession with 14.6 seconds remaining after Tony Parker missed a pull-up jumper. Rather than use a timeout, the Knicks pushed forward and got the ball to Anthony, who had been hounded all night by Kawhi Leonard, last season’s Defensive Player of the Year.
Anthony had converted just five of 15 shots but had made his last attempt: a 15-foot fadeaway with 1:27 remaining. He was in position to take a similar shot from the wing with Leonard guarding him and Parker and Manu Ginobili providing help.
Anthony admitted afterwards that two or three years ago “I probably take that shot. I probably make it too.”
In this instance, he found Calderon momentarily open in the corner with Ginobili closing fast. Calderon, the team’s best 3-point shooter at 42%, got off a high, arching shot from behind the line that was too strong.
“At the last second he saw me in the corner because my guy helped out,” Calderon said. “It was a pretty good look.”
EX-KNICKS BOSS ISIAH THOMAS SEEN IN PIC WITH CRIPS BOSS
Spurs forward Kawhi Leonard leads San Antonio with 19 points, 12 boards.
Spurs forward Kawhi Leonard leads San Antonio with 19 points, 12 boards. (ERIC GAY/AP)
Calderon, who has been at times unfairly criticized when the Knicks struggle, later added: “I know everybody is going to want me out of New York because I missed that shot.”
The reality is the Knicks showed great character in winning road games in Atlanta and Miami before coming one shot from snapping the Spurs’ home unbeaten streak, which reached 22 games on Friday. Kristaps Porzingis scored 28 points with 11 rebounds and was the best foreign player on the floor, which is saying something when your opponent is the Spurs.
Porzingis’ last basket was a dunk from an inbounds pass with 32.3 seconds remaining that cut San Antonio’s lead to one. Moments earlier, Arron Afflalo’s 3-pointer with 49.9 seconds left had cut the Spurs’ lead to 98-97, but Parker answered with a patented floater.
Parker, Ginobili and LaMarcus Aldridge all scored 16 as the Spurs improved to 32-6. The Knicks fell to 18-20. Tim Duncan added seven points and nine rebounds while Leonard, one of the league’s best two-way players, led the Spurs with 19 points and 12 rebounds.
Leonard was the primary defender on Anthony in both meetings this season Anthony finished a combined 9-for-32. If Anthony had taken the last shot, Leonard’s long arm and massive hand would have made it extremely difficult for him.
BONDY: FIVE THOUGHTS ON KNICKS' 2015-16 SEASON
“It’s kind of a lose-lose situation, but I’ll take it tonight,” Anthony said, referring to whether the best player should take the last shot or set up his team for the best shot. “No way I could probably get a shot off. I feel good with making that play tonight.”
Fisher, who hit the biggest shot of his career here against the Spurs in a playoff game more than a decade earlier, was happy that his team fought but made sure to add “no moral victories. We had an opportunity to win the game.”
Of course, 20 minutes later Anthony said, “I’ll take a loss like this any day,” which isn’t exactly the message Fisher is trying to get across to the team. But Anthony seemed to be referring to the idea that the Knicks weren’t satisfied with two wins on the trip and rolling over for the mighty Spurs.
They fought back and had a shot … that was created by a Melo pass. That’s progress.
Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:Thanks crzy!!Seems reasonably accurate to me. A bit slanted against Melo (more so than I would have said) and a bit more forgiving of Phil and even Jeff. But overall a decent synopsis
If I were author I probably would have been more critical about the lack of accountability on defense. We have a team full of players who say the right thing, but talk is cheap and they didn't give the consistent effort needed on the little things and dirty work. Unless you have the dream team, you need to do that work to win. Jeff needs to enforce that -- if you don't play defense, you don't play
If we're going to make a meaningful step next year, it has to come from that end of the floor
Yeah, there was almost no mention of defense. This is the drawback of Phil's obsession with the Triangle. Defense is the true issue with this team. You can win with any efficient offense in the NBA. You can't win with a bad defense. Knicks have literally the worst defense in the league since Phil started and he keeps obsessing over offense. He's missing the point.
don't forget to double down on Rambis. That usually is soothing to you.Wait, I don't understand - so you think Rambis has done a good job? Or wait, we shouldn't question him at all because it's all Melo? Do you have a point?
I don't blame Rambis, no applaud him.
Nalod if you read me I am about 60-70% complimentary of him and think he has held his bargain with the exception of not buying into the system he said he would. For that, I don't blame Phil as most haters do.
Melo said he was down with the system. Why would he resign and offer his allegence to phil and the triangle?
I fail at what is sarcasm in my written tone so it gets picked up as an argument. I find Rambis bashing funny because he has been a successful assistant and player under Phil, but because he is loyal to him he must be incompetent. Seems like we give coaching a pass and blame PHil for any confusion or mistakes by them. Of course they get all the credit for Willy, KP, Kuz, Ron, Etc etc.........
many thought Rambis was defacto coach to replace fish and have dreamt that Dolan directed him to not hire him. That's some funny stuff. Phil hate runs deep and makes some creative!!I've started several threads saying I don't think Hornacek did a good job. He seemed to lose the team. To me - his very first pre-season game where the players said afterward he didn't mention defense once in their pre-game planning was a MAJOR red flag. Gave up 130pts to Houston and honestly, it could've been more if Houston was really even trying.
I've also said that I think Phil gave up far too quickly on Fisher right when it seemed Fisher had turned a corner. Blaming Fisher for the Knicks getting some injuries to Melo, Calderon, and Lance Thomas was crappy. Also, remember last season we didn't hear very much about Melo being a ball hog and not playing D. Because Fish got Melo's trust.
One moment I'll never forget about Fisher's coaching here - the Knicks lost a last second game in San Antonio. Melo drove on Kawhi, and dished out to an open corner three for Jose Calderon. Calderon missed. Melo looked distraught - he played a hell of a game and wanted to win badly. Fisher ran out on to the court and said into Melo's ear - "you made the right play."
That's a hell of a coach.
Phil should've trusted Fisher more. He should've focused on his real job - getting Melo and Fisher more help on the court.
But, sure, right, I have an agenda and it's actually all Melo's fault.
I agree with the above. But Fish also hitting on players girls? Is that true? The Govan/Barnes angle on the surface didn't bother me but many have written about this being breach among the players on top of him hitting on players girls? I thought Kerr was the right hire as was Fish. I can see phil being pained have had to fire him for non basketball reasons. Fish said the whole event did weigh on his dismissal. Really, we don't have all the facts and I can't say much about it. I was more in favor of letting fish sort thru the growing pains as a young coach.
Okay... I think we may actually agree on something for once???
Probably best to leave it at that!
I agree that Fish's behavior with Barnes's ex and maybe other girls was bad and we have no idea how much that figured in. I wish Phil had stood up for him more. I thought he showed a lot of signs of "getting it" as a coach. The Barnes situation was a major misstep.
I'm not a huge fan of Hornacek, but he came into a bad situation. He deserves another year. But honestly, I don't see this team getting to the playoffs under Hornacek. I think we will need a coach who can emphasize D better and make better in game adjustments. Time will tell.
Lots of things went wrong but the whole failure starts with the fact that this wasnt a team first situation. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we should have stuck with the system and let guys go through their growing pains.
Most of this is on Phil but other GMs could easily have failed as well, we have certainly seen that here. I always thought Phil was a smug douche over the years. Having him here only confirms that. It doesnt mean he doesnt know the game, cant evaluate talent or put the right pieces together. He has surely backed into a rebuild but so long as its happening I am 100% fine with it. I am great with the direction of the team. It would have been better if Phil hit homers and Melo's renaissance led way to the next era... but it didnt happen. Phil's failures have yielded KP and thats not enough, but not having first rounders wasnt his fault either. Willy eases the pain of a missing first, and perhaps last year's weak draft does as well, but the point is Im not making excuses for Phil. In my opinion we dont have enough young talent to justify the amount of losing but the draft also hasnt happened. We have a 1-5 chance to move up and grab franchise changing talent. If we are 6-7-8 we will still have a chance to draft an all star caliber player based on the depth of this draft.
Doc Rivers point blank said he would take any of those proposed Melo trades, so if they could find any desperate team to take Jamal Crawford Melo is a Clipper and the Knicks get Rivers. He's a warm body with some upside and a cap friendly deal but that would also free up more space. Doesnt make the Knicks better but it does show the roster has been kept flexible. Even with the unmitigated disaster Panos calls Noah's deal we would still be a 30 win team that added lottery talent and has over $30mm in cap space.
Play the system. If players cant deal move them out. Team first. There can be no exceptions.
fishmike wrote:the simple thing is the Knicks once again put players in front of the team. Personell was catered to Melo. System was catered to Rose. They did things wrong. I dont really fault them for this thought process either. Make Melo happy, get him some players, get him playing at a high level. Make things easy for Rose to adjust to, mix in some offense that works for him to get him going. Think about it.. you have a happy DadMelo, Rose rejuvinated, KP takes steps forward and Lee/Lance/Noah/Holiday should give us enough defense to support that core. It just didnt work. Lost in this was KP is only a sophmore and regressed defensively. The frontcourt guys who were supposed to help stabalize the defense were either ineffective or not healthy in Lance/Noah. It just didnt work. Plenty here thought it would. Others admitted it had a shot even if they didnt agree. Hope was had. Happiness existed. Then Phil tweeted and ruined Christmas.Lots of things went wrong but the whole failure starts with the fact that this wasnt a team first situation. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we should have stuck with the system and let guys go through their growing pains.
Most of this is on Phil but other GMs could easily have failed as well, we have certainly seen that here. I always thought Phil was a smug douche over the years. Having him here only confirms that. It doesnt mean he doesnt know the game, cant evaluate talent or put the right pieces together. He has surely backed into a rebuild but so long as its happening I am 100% fine with it. I am great with the direction of the team. It would have been better if Phil hit homers and Melo's renaissance led way to the next era... but it didnt happen. Phil's failures have yielded KP and thats not enough, but not having first rounders wasnt his fault either. Willy eases the pain of a missing first, and perhaps last year's weak draft does as well, but the point is Im not making excuses for Phil. In my opinion we dont have enough young talent to justify the amount of losing but the draft also hasnt happened. We have a 1-5 chance to move up and grab franchise changing talent. If we are 6-7-8 we will still have a chance to draft an all star caliber player based on the depth of this draft.
Doc Rivers point blank said he would take any of those proposed Melo trades, so if they could find any desperate team to take Jamal Crawford Melo is a Clipper and the Knicks get Rivers. He's a warm body with some upside and a cap friendly deal but that would also free up more space. Doesnt make the Knicks better but it does show the roster has been kept flexible. Even with the unmitigated disaster Panos calls Noah's deal we would still be a 30 win team that added lottery talent and has over $30mm in cap space.
Play the system. If players cant deal move them out. Team first. There can be no exceptions.
That's a good post. One thing that seems like it may have played a bigger factor was KP's achilles injury. The defense fell off a cliff after the Christmas game and maybe that was partially why.
Thank christ this fucking season is over. I'm ready to move on. I hope the Knicks can move Melo, I look forward to our pick. Like I said above, I don't have complete faith in Hornacek, but he deserves at least another season. We need some continuity.
Past that - hey I'll pray for some Josh Jackson or Lonzo Ball... or at least a very good pick at 6/7/8. Thank god this season is over. Really one of the most disappointing in years, because this team showed some flashes of being very good.
Really the journey from the opening night starting lineup to the last starting lineup of the season is mindboggling. Time to move on.
Nalod wrote:crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Its absolutely true! NY is a starphuchers paradise! NY has little patience for a rebuild.
How is this true? You see it with our attendance in every night. This team can lose year in and year out and it sells out the arena!!!
What is pathetic and sad, and deeply misguided, and should terrify everyone is that some fans don't understand that the knicks are part of MSG and the buisness is "entertainment"!!
What should lend itself to some degree of hope is the development of youth and we have our inventory of first round picks.
When was the last time that happend?
So if you want a future in a hard cap world where free agent players rarely move, its important.
I am curious what attendance is like for the Nets. The Knicks appeared to have a sell out crowd last night for the Sixers. I stopped watching the nets when they got Pierce and KG and haven't gone back. You
crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Also, rebuilding was nearly impossible with only 1 first round pick out of 3 drafts, so their weren't any realistic alternatives. If you let Melo walk for nothing, and can't reap the benefits of being a bad team to get higher in the draft, what is the point? Same thing BK is going thru now. Tanking does nothing for them, so they will try to sign good players who can help them win.
$30m in cap space two years in a row isn't enough to get any Triangle players who are keepers? If he let Melo walk he would've had $55m in cap space in 2015.
this is hindsight. At the time, Melo was clearly the best option. He needed an elite player and that was the only guy he could get. If you're going to fault Phil on this it should be that he was overly optimistic in thinking Melo would play defense and pass. There are things to criticize Phil for but this to me is revisionism
I agree signing Melo was only real option. And one of his failures is not being able to sell Melo on the Triangle... and of course that's partially on Melo, too.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/lazenby/status/852575787559653376
Click here to view the TweetBUT - to me it is inarguable that he failed with his stated goal of bringing in "Triangle" players in free agency. He thought he could convince LaMarcus Aldridge or even Greg Monroe, but couldn't get anyone worth keeping over two years with $30M each year. Courtney Lee is the only keeper he has brought in Free Agency. $60M in cap space over two years - almost $200M in long term deals given out to Afflalo, DWill, Rolo, Jennings, Noah, and Lee and CLee is the only keeper and he's 31, has called the coaching staff "Dumb and Dumber" and said the team this year was "beyond pep talks"... I like CLee, but he's clearly miserable here. I sort of assume he'll ask for a trade this off-season.
I agree re FA, But in his defense I think it's more complicated than simply Phil failed. The old and new CBA are horrible. If you're an established winning team it's great. If you suck and are trying to improve the CBA stacks the odds against you. Salary cap in short says how much talent can you get for X dollars. First, the best players are going to get max contracts and be the best value. They'll cost 25 million but be worth 40 (see Kawhi, Lebron, etc.). They'll get that money where ever they go. What would incentivize them to go to a rebuilding franchise? What extra incentive do they get to go to NY w higher taxes or cost of living. It's tough a hurdle to get over. You take a look around the league. Market will set a price on a player - whatever that number is let's say 10mill/year. That player will opt for the winning franchise over the rebuilding. Sometimes they'll even play for less.
I thought Phil tried to deal with this, trying to get players who WANTED to be in NY -- guys like Melo, Noah, O'Quinn, Brandon etc.
He failed in getting the talented FAs we need, but no worse so than many others. And FWIW I thought his 11 rings as coach, 2 as a player, might attract folks. If it did, it was marginal. I also wonder why Mills gets a free pass on this. He's the GM, and as far as I can tell his one supposed strength was his relationship with agents etc. Seems like he's been played
We need a Clarence Gaines for FAs
Mills has been around the Garden off and on for almost all of Dolan's tenure. I have no idea what he does. I don't really have faith in him as a GM.
Yeah, Free Agency is tough. Though it's fair to mention that the 2014-5 disaster season turned off a lot of free agents. A lot of them were said to not want to come to such a losing team or play the Triangle. Because those free agents know that one guy on the court can't really lead a team to contending unless it's a Lebron level guy. Would Free Agency have gone better if the Knicks hadn't gotten so little in return for JR, Shump, Tyson, etc? The team was something like 9-39 when they ditched JR and Shump, it's not like those guys were leading to wins in the Triangle.
There's been a big effort to get rid of guys who can't play the triangle, but so far Phil has been very spotty bringing in guys who get the Triangle. Including coaches. We're left with a bunch of D-league guys who play their asses off because they know if they fail or look bad here there's a good chance they won't get another shot in the NBA. Just good enough to not get a top five pick.
Agree with all of this. The point I was making about CBA is that if you have a crappy team economics would suggest you need to pay more money to attract talent here. But the CBA prevents that in conjunction with normal human emotions of "everything else being equal i'll join a team where I can win" While I realize the intent of the CBA was to prevent deep pocket teams from buying up all the talent -- the unintended consequence (at least i'd like to hope it was) is it makes it that much tougher for a bad team to rectify itself through talent acquisition.
I also like to think that nearly every (if not all) teams are truly trying to win, yet it's elusive and tough. And unless you draft Shaq you don't see the franchises (any even the Bulls with MJ) turn on a dime. it's a process. MJ was scoring 50+ points etc and Bulls were not The Bulls until all of the other pieces came into place.
crzymdups wrote:Agree and while it hasnt yielded yet I do believe we will reap benefits of Phil's growing pains as an exec. I am not super high on Baker, but enough are here that I have an open mind. Willy showed amazing flashes. What really hurt in the past was having these seasons with nothing to look at, not even a glimpse. At least as Phil flails he doesnt stand pat and we look at a LOT of young kids from Ricky Ledo and on. Phil has sucked. But he's also clearly pissed about sucking, and I can wait and see where that goes. What hurt in the past was sucking with no future, no picks and the FO telling the press "we like our team."fishmike wrote:the simple thing is the Knicks once again put players in front of the team. Personell was catered to Melo. System was catered to Rose. They did things wrong. I dont really fault them for this thought process either. Make Melo happy, get him some players, get him playing at a high level. Make things easy for Rose to adjust to, mix in some offense that works for him to get him going. Think about it.. you have a happy DadMelo, Rose rejuvinated, KP takes steps forward and Lee/Lance/Noah/Holiday should give us enough defense to support that core. It just didnt work. Lost in this was KP is only a sophmore and regressed defensively. The frontcourt guys who were supposed to help stabalize the defense were either ineffective or not healthy in Lance/Noah. It just didnt work. Plenty here thought it would. Others admitted it had a shot even if they didnt agree. Hope was had. Happiness existed. Then Phil tweeted and ruined Christmas.Lots of things went wrong but the whole failure starts with the fact that this wasnt a team first situation. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we should have stuck with the system and let guys go through their growing pains.
Most of this is on Phil but other GMs could easily have failed as well, we have certainly seen that here. I always thought Phil was a smug douche over the years. Having him here only confirms that. It doesnt mean he doesnt know the game, cant evaluate talent or put the right pieces together. He has surely backed into a rebuild but so long as its happening I am 100% fine with it. I am great with the direction of the team. It would have been better if Phil hit homers and Melo's renaissance led way to the next era... but it didnt happen. Phil's failures have yielded KP and thats not enough, but not having first rounders wasnt his fault either. Willy eases the pain of a missing first, and perhaps last year's weak draft does as well, but the point is Im not making excuses for Phil. In my opinion we dont have enough young talent to justify the amount of losing but the draft also hasnt happened. We have a 1-5 chance to move up and grab franchise changing talent. If we are 6-7-8 we will still have a chance to draft an all star caliber player based on the depth of this draft.
Doc Rivers point blank said he would take any of those proposed Melo trades, so if they could find any desperate team to take Jamal Crawford Melo is a Clipper and the Knicks get Rivers. He's a warm body with some upside and a cap friendly deal but that would also free up more space. Doesnt make the Knicks better but it does show the roster has been kept flexible. Even with the unmitigated disaster Panos calls Noah's deal we would still be a 30 win team that added lottery talent and has over $30mm in cap space.
Play the system. If players cant deal move them out. Team first. There can be no exceptions.
That's a good post. One thing that seems like it may have played a bigger factor was KP's achilles injury. The defense fell off a cliff after the Christmas game and maybe that was partially why.
Thank christ this fucking season is over. I'm ready to move on. I hope the Knicks can move Melo, I look forward to our pick. Like I said above, I don't have complete faith in Hornacek, but he deserves at least another season. We need some continuity.
Past that - hey I'll pray for some Josh Jackson or Lonzo Ball... or at least a very good pick at 6/7/8. Thank god this season is over. Really one of the most disappointing in years, because this team showed some flashes of being very good.
Really the journey from the opening night starting lineup to the last starting lineup of the season is mindboggling. Time to move on.
fishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Agree and while it hasnt yielded yet I do believe we will reap benefits of Phil's growing pains as an exec. I am not super high on Baker, but enough are here that I have an open mind. Willy showed amazing flashes. What really hurt in the past was having these seasons with nothing to look at, not even a glimpse. At least as Phil flails he doesnt stand pat and we look at a LOT of young kids from Ricky Ledo and on. Phil has sucked. But he's also clearly pissed about sucking, and I can wait and see where that goes. What hurt in the past was sucking with no future, no picks and the FO telling the press "we like our team."fishmike wrote:the simple thing is the Knicks once again put players in front of the team. Personell was catered to Melo. System was catered to Rose. They did things wrong. I dont really fault them for this thought process either. Make Melo happy, get him some players, get him playing at a high level. Make things easy for Rose to adjust to, mix in some offense that works for him to get him going. Think about it.. you have a happy DadMelo, Rose rejuvinated, KP takes steps forward and Lee/Lance/Noah/Holiday should give us enough defense to support that core. It just didnt work. Lost in this was KP is only a sophmore and regressed defensively. The frontcourt guys who were supposed to help stabalize the defense were either ineffective or not healthy in Lance/Noah. It just didnt work. Plenty here thought it would. Others admitted it had a shot even if they didnt agree. Hope was had. Happiness existed. Then Phil tweeted and ruined Christmas.Lots of things went wrong but the whole failure starts with the fact that this wasnt a team first situation. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we should have stuck with the system and let guys go through their growing pains.
Most of this is on Phil but other GMs could easily have failed as well, we have certainly seen that here. I always thought Phil was a smug douche over the years. Having him here only confirms that. It doesnt mean he doesnt know the game, cant evaluate talent or put the right pieces together. He has surely backed into a rebuild but so long as its happening I am 100% fine with it. I am great with the direction of the team. It would have been better if Phil hit homers and Melo's renaissance led way to the next era... but it didnt happen. Phil's failures have yielded KP and thats not enough, but not having first rounders wasnt his fault either. Willy eases the pain of a missing first, and perhaps last year's weak draft does as well, but the point is Im not making excuses for Phil. In my opinion we dont have enough young talent to justify the amount of losing but the draft also hasnt happened. We have a 1-5 chance to move up and grab franchise changing talent. If we are 6-7-8 we will still have a chance to draft an all star caliber player based on the depth of this draft.
Doc Rivers point blank said he would take any of those proposed Melo trades, so if they could find any desperate team to take Jamal Crawford Melo is a Clipper and the Knicks get Rivers. He's a warm body with some upside and a cap friendly deal but that would also free up more space. Doesnt make the Knicks better but it does show the roster has been kept flexible. Even with the unmitigated disaster Panos calls Noah's deal we would still be a 30 win team that added lottery talent and has over $30mm in cap space.
Play the system. If players cant deal move them out. Team first. There can be no exceptions.
That's a good post. One thing that seems like it may have played a bigger factor was KP's achilles injury. The defense fell off a cliff after the Christmas game and maybe that was partially why.
Thank christ this fucking season is over. I'm ready to move on. I hope the Knicks can move Melo, I look forward to our pick. Like I said above, I don't have complete faith in Hornacek, but he deserves at least another season. We need some continuity.
Past that - hey I'll pray for some Josh Jackson or Lonzo Ball... or at least a very good pick at 6/7/8. Thank god this season is over. Really one of the most disappointing in years, because this team showed some flashes of being very good.
Really the journey from the opening night starting lineup to the last starting lineup of the season is mindboggling. Time to move on.
I just think trading melo you either going to pick up a bad contact(lower but longer), or pick up nothing relevant.
We always trade I worst contract a yr or 2 before it expires and get worse in the process
knicks1248 wrote:there really isnt any choice at this point. I mean he pretty much said that he will only returno on his terms and those days are over. I agree the return wont be good but it needs to be donefishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Agree and while it hasnt yielded yet I do believe we will reap benefits of Phil's growing pains as an exec. I am not super high on Baker, but enough are here that I have an open mind. Willy showed amazing flashes. What really hurt in the past was having these seasons with nothing to look at, not even a glimpse. At least as Phil flails he doesnt stand pat and we look at a LOT of young kids from Ricky Ledo and on. Phil has sucked. But he's also clearly pissed about sucking, and I can wait and see where that goes. What hurt in the past was sucking with no future, no picks and the FO telling the press "we like our team."fishmike wrote:the simple thing is the Knicks once again put players in front of the team. Personell was catered to Melo. System was catered to Rose. They did things wrong. I dont really fault them for this thought process either. Make Melo happy, get him some players, get him playing at a high level. Make things easy for Rose to adjust to, mix in some offense that works for him to get him going. Think about it.. you have a happy DadMelo, Rose rejuvinated, KP takes steps forward and Lee/Lance/Noah/Holiday should give us enough defense to support that core. It just didnt work. Lost in this was KP is only a sophmore and regressed defensively. The frontcourt guys who were supposed to help stabalize the defense were either ineffective or not healthy in Lance/Noah. It just didnt work. Plenty here thought it would. Others admitted it had a shot even if they didnt agree. Hope was had. Happiness existed. Then Phil tweeted and ruined Christmas.Lots of things went wrong but the whole failure starts with the fact that this wasnt a team first situation. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we should have stuck with the system and let guys go through their growing pains.
Most of this is on Phil but other GMs could easily have failed as well, we have certainly seen that here. I always thought Phil was a smug douche over the years. Having him here only confirms that. It doesnt mean he doesnt know the game, cant evaluate talent or put the right pieces together. He has surely backed into a rebuild but so long as its happening I am 100% fine with it. I am great with the direction of the team. It would have been better if Phil hit homers and Melo's renaissance led way to the next era... but it didnt happen. Phil's failures have yielded KP and thats not enough, but not having first rounders wasnt his fault either. Willy eases the pain of a missing first, and perhaps last year's weak draft does as well, but the point is Im not making excuses for Phil. In my opinion we dont have enough young talent to justify the amount of losing but the draft also hasnt happened. We have a 1-5 chance to move up and grab franchise changing talent. If we are 6-7-8 we will still have a chance to draft an all star caliber player based on the depth of this draft.
Doc Rivers point blank said he would take any of those proposed Melo trades, so if they could find any desperate team to take Jamal Crawford Melo is a Clipper and the Knicks get Rivers. He's a warm body with some upside and a cap friendly deal but that would also free up more space. Doesnt make the Knicks better but it does show the roster has been kept flexible. Even with the unmitigated disaster Panos calls Noah's deal we would still be a 30 win team that added lottery talent and has over $30mm in cap space.
Play the system. If players cant deal move them out. Team first. There can be no exceptions.
That's a good post. One thing that seems like it may have played a bigger factor was KP's achilles injury. The defense fell off a cliff after the Christmas game and maybe that was partially why.
Thank christ this fucking season is over. I'm ready to move on. I hope the Knicks can move Melo, I look forward to our pick. Like I said above, I don't have complete faith in Hornacek, but he deserves at least another season. We need some continuity.
Past that - hey I'll pray for some Josh Jackson or Lonzo Ball... or at least a very good pick at 6/7/8. Thank god this season is over. Really one of the most disappointing in years, because this team showed some flashes of being very good.
Really the journey from the opening night starting lineup to the last starting lineup of the season is mindboggling. Time to move on.I just think trading melo you either going to pick up a bad contact(lower but longer), or pick up nothing relevant.
We always trade I worst contract a yr or 2 before it expires and get worse in the process
StarksEwing1 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:there really isnt any choice at this point. I mean he pretty much said that he will only returno on his terms and those days are over. I agree the return wont be good but it needs to be donefishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Agree and while it hasnt yielded yet I do believe we will reap benefits of Phil's growing pains as an exec. I am not super high on Baker, but enough are here that I have an open mind. Willy showed amazing flashes. What really hurt in the past was having these seasons with nothing to look at, not even a glimpse. At least as Phil flails he doesnt stand pat and we look at a LOT of young kids from Ricky Ledo and on. Phil has sucked. But he's also clearly pissed about sucking, and I can wait and see where that goes. What hurt in the past was sucking with no future, no picks and the FO telling the press "we like our team."fishmike wrote:the simple thing is the Knicks once again put players in front of the team. Personell was catered to Melo. System was catered to Rose. They did things wrong. I dont really fault them for this thought process either. Make Melo happy, get him some players, get him playing at a high level. Make things easy for Rose to adjust to, mix in some offense that works for him to get him going. Think about it.. you have a happy DadMelo, Rose rejuvinated, KP takes steps forward and Lee/Lance/Noah/Holiday should give us enough defense to support that core. It just didnt work. Lost in this was KP is only a sophmore and regressed defensively. The frontcourt guys who were supposed to help stabalize the defense were either ineffective or not healthy in Lance/Noah. It just didnt work. Plenty here thought it would. Others admitted it had a shot even if they didnt agree. Hope was had. Happiness existed. Then Phil tweeted and ruined Christmas.Lots of things went wrong but the whole failure starts with the fact that this wasnt a team first situation. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we should have stuck with the system and let guys go through their growing pains.
Most of this is on Phil but other GMs could easily have failed as well, we have certainly seen that here. I always thought Phil was a smug douche over the years. Having him here only confirms that. It doesnt mean he doesnt know the game, cant evaluate talent or put the right pieces together. He has surely backed into a rebuild but so long as its happening I am 100% fine with it. I am great with the direction of the team. It would have been better if Phil hit homers and Melo's renaissance led way to the next era... but it didnt happen. Phil's failures have yielded KP and thats not enough, but not having first rounders wasnt his fault either. Willy eases the pain of a missing first, and perhaps last year's weak draft does as well, but the point is Im not making excuses for Phil. In my opinion we dont have enough young talent to justify the amount of losing but the draft also hasnt happened. We have a 1-5 chance to move up and grab franchise changing talent. If we are 6-7-8 we will still have a chance to draft an all star caliber player based on the depth of this draft.
Doc Rivers point blank said he would take any of those proposed Melo trades, so if they could find any desperate team to take Jamal Crawford Melo is a Clipper and the Knicks get Rivers. He's a warm body with some upside and a cap friendly deal but that would also free up more space. Doesnt make the Knicks better but it does show the roster has been kept flexible. Even with the unmitigated disaster Panos calls Noah's deal we would still be a 30 win team that added lottery talent and has over $30mm in cap space.
Play the system. If players cant deal move them out. Team first. There can be no exceptions.
That's a good post. One thing that seems like it may have played a bigger factor was KP's achilles injury. The defense fell off a cliff after the Christmas game and maybe that was partially why.
Thank christ this fucking season is over. I'm ready to move on. I hope the Knicks can move Melo, I look forward to our pick. Like I said above, I don't have complete faith in Hornacek, but he deserves at least another season. We need some continuity.
Past that - hey I'll pray for some Josh Jackson or Lonzo Ball... or at least a very good pick at 6/7/8. Thank god this season is over. Really one of the most disappointing in years, because this team showed some flashes of being very good.
Really the journey from the opening night starting lineup to the last starting lineup of the season is mindboggling. Time to move on.I just think trading melo you either going to pick up a bad contact(lower but longer), or pick up nothing relevant.
We always trade I worst contract a yr or 2 before it expires and get worse in the process
He said he would only return on his terms? Is there a link? He may return simply because his deal cannot be moved.
crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:crzymdups wrote:Knixkik wrote:crzymdups wrote:If this part here is Phil's reasoning for signing Melo, it's a pathetic and sad one. And deeply misguided. And it should terrify us for the future planning around this team.
But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.In whatever the arena — political, entertainment, and athletic — New York absolutely loves stars!
Also, rebuilding was nearly impossible with only 1 first round pick out of 3 drafts, so their weren't any realistic alternatives. If you let Melo walk for nothing, and can't reap the benefits of being a bad team to get higher in the draft, what is the point? Same thing BK is going thru now. Tanking does nothing for them, so they will try to sign good players who can help them win.
$30m in cap space two years in a row isn't enough to get any Triangle players who are keepers? If he let Melo walk he would've had $55m in cap space in 2015.
this is hindsight. At the time, Melo was clearly the best option. He needed an elite player and that was the only guy he could get. If you're going to fault Phil on this it should be that he was overly optimistic in thinking Melo would play defense and pass. There are things to criticize Phil for but this to me is revisionism
I agree signing Melo was only real option. And one of his failures is not being able to sell Melo on the Triangle... and of course that's partially on Melo, too.
Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/lazenby/status/852575787559653376
Click here to view the TweetBUT - to me it is inarguable that he failed with his stated goal of bringing in "Triangle" players in free agency. He thought he could convince LaMarcus Aldridge or even Greg Monroe, but couldn't get anyone worth keeping over two years with $30M each year. Courtney Lee is the only keeper he has brought in Free Agency. $60M in cap space over two years - almost $200M in long term deals given out to Afflalo, DWill, Rolo, Jennings, Noah, and Lee and CLee is the only keeper and he's 31, has called the coaching staff "Dumb and Dumber" and said the team this year was "beyond pep talks"... I like CLee, but he's clearly miserable here. I sort of assume he'll ask for a trade this off-season.
phil was able to sell Melo on the idea of the triangle because he was the f****** coach!! He was in the grind with the players!!! Now he sits on his throne in the stands and the only time they hear from him is thorugh cryptic tweets our his buddy Rosen. Hard to sell anything when it seems like your half-committed to it.
CrushAlot wrote:i forget which paper it was. I didnt mean he was making an ultimatum. However he did mention "to win now" which seems like he isnt interested in rebuildingStarksEwing1 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:there really isnt any choice at this point. I mean he pretty much said that he will only returno on his terms and those days are over. I agree the return wont be good but it needs to be donefishmike wrote:crzymdups wrote:Agree and while it hasnt yielded yet I do believe we will reap benefits of Phil's growing pains as an exec. I am not super high on Baker, but enough are here that I have an open mind. Willy showed amazing flashes. What really hurt in the past was having these seasons with nothing to look at, not even a glimpse. At least as Phil flails he doesnt stand pat and we look at a LOT of young kids from Ricky Ledo and on. Phil has sucked. But he's also clearly pissed about sucking, and I can wait and see where that goes. What hurt in the past was sucking with no future, no picks and the FO telling the press "we like our team."fishmike wrote:the simple thing is the Knicks once again put players in front of the team. Personell was catered to Melo. System was catered to Rose. They did things wrong. I dont really fault them for this thought process either. Make Melo happy, get him some players, get him playing at a high level. Make things easy for Rose to adjust to, mix in some offense that works for him to get him going. Think about it.. you have a happy DadMelo, Rose rejuvinated, KP takes steps forward and Lee/Lance/Noah/Holiday should give us enough defense to support that core. It just didnt work. Lost in this was KP is only a sophmore and regressed defensively. The frontcourt guys who were supposed to help stabalize the defense were either ineffective or not healthy in Lance/Noah. It just didnt work. Plenty here thought it would. Others admitted it had a shot even if they didnt agree. Hope was had. Happiness existed. Then Phil tweeted and ruined Christmas.Lots of things went wrong but the whole failure starts with the fact that this wasnt a team first situation. Hindsight is always 20/20 but we should have stuck with the system and let guys go through their growing pains.
Most of this is on Phil but other GMs could easily have failed as well, we have certainly seen that here. I always thought Phil was a smug douche over the years. Having him here only confirms that. It doesnt mean he doesnt know the game, cant evaluate talent or put the right pieces together. He has surely backed into a rebuild but so long as its happening I am 100% fine with it. I am great with the direction of the team. It would have been better if Phil hit homers and Melo's renaissance led way to the next era... but it didnt happen. Phil's failures have yielded KP and thats not enough, but not having first rounders wasnt his fault either. Willy eases the pain of a missing first, and perhaps last year's weak draft does as well, but the point is Im not making excuses for Phil. In my opinion we dont have enough young talent to justify the amount of losing but the draft also hasnt happened. We have a 1-5 chance to move up and grab franchise changing talent. If we are 6-7-8 we will still have a chance to draft an all star caliber player based on the depth of this draft.
Doc Rivers point blank said he would take any of those proposed Melo trades, so if they could find any desperate team to take Jamal Crawford Melo is a Clipper and the Knicks get Rivers. He's a warm body with some upside and a cap friendly deal but that would also free up more space. Doesnt make the Knicks better but it does show the roster has been kept flexible. Even with the unmitigated disaster Panos calls Noah's deal we would still be a 30 win team that added lottery talent and has over $30mm in cap space.
Play the system. If players cant deal move them out. Team first. There can be no exceptions.
That's a good post. One thing that seems like it may have played a bigger factor was KP's achilles injury. The defense fell off a cliff after the Christmas game and maybe that was partially why.
Thank christ this fucking season is over. I'm ready to move on. I hope the Knicks can move Melo, I look forward to our pick. Like I said above, I don't have complete faith in Hornacek, but he deserves at least another season. We need some continuity.
Past that - hey I'll pray for some Josh Jackson or Lonzo Ball... or at least a very good pick at 6/7/8. Thank god this season is over. Really one of the most disappointing in years, because this team showed some flashes of being very good.
Really the journey from the opening night starting lineup to the last starting lineup of the season is mindboggling. Time to move on.I just think trading melo you either going to pick up a bad contact(lower but longer), or pick up nothing relevant.
We always trade I worst contract a yr or 2 before it expires and get worse in the processHe said he would only return on his terms? Is there a link? He may return simply because his deal cannot be moved.
The above quote stood out to me...So if phil really believes that the Big Apple is averse to rebuilding, are we to believe this team is in the process of rebuilding now?
Uptown wrote:But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.i think most fans want a rebuild. Lets be honest we haved sucked for 17 years trying to, "win now" so i think fans want to try something differentThe above quote stood out to me...So if phil really believes that the Big Apple is averse to rebuilding, are we to believe this team is in the process of rebuilding now?
StarksEwing1 wrote:Uptown wrote:But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.i think most fans want a rebuild. Lets be honest we haved sucked for 17 years trying to, "win now" so i think fans want to try something differentThe above quote stood out to me...So if phil really believes that the Big Apple is averse to rebuilding, are we to believe this team is in the process of rebuilding now?
Most fans want it, but for some reason, every president or gm goes for the quick fix because they believe we can't rebuild in NY. The rallying cry for those who continue to disregard phils blunders is that we are now rebuilding. If we are rebuilding, it goes against the reason why the article says we re-signed Melo.
Uptown wrote:ive never ignored phils blunders. In fact ive been pretty up front about his mistakes. The past is the past nothing we can do about it. Now its about using our high draft picks and free agency to build a good futureStarksEwing1 wrote:Uptown wrote:But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.i think most fans want a rebuild. Lets be honest we haved sucked for 17 years trying to, "win now" so i think fans want to try something differentThe above quote stood out to me...So if phil really believes that the Big Apple is averse to rebuilding, are we to believe this team is in the process of rebuilding now?
Most fans want it, but for some reason, every president or gm goes for the quick fix because they believe we can't rebuild in NY. The rallying cry for those who continue to disregard phils blunders is that we are now rebuilding. If we are rebuilding, it goes against the reason why the article says we re-signed Melo.
StarksEwing1 wrote:Uptown wrote:ive never ignored phils blunders. In fact ive been pretty up front about his mistakes. The past is the past nothing we can do about it. Now its about using our high draft picks and free agency to build a good futureStarksEwing1 wrote:Uptown wrote:But there’s another reason why Jackson was forced to lure Melo back to New York: Knicks fans in the Big Apple are averse to any suggestion that their beloved team might be undertaking a rebuilding process. However, their reluctance to accept such a program can be entirely mitigated if a superstar player can be the focus of whatever enthusiasm they can muster.i think most fans want a rebuild. Lets be honest we haved sucked for 17 years trying to, "win now" so i think fans want to try something differentThe above quote stood out to me...So if phil really believes that the Big Apple is averse to rebuilding, are we to believe this team is in the process of rebuilding now?
Most fans want it, but for some reason, every president or gm goes for the quick fix because they believe we can't rebuild in NY. The rallying cry for those who continue to disregard phils blunders is that we are now rebuilding. If we are rebuilding, it goes against the reason why the article says we re-signed Melo.
Some of the Phil detractors keep pointing to re-signing Melo as proof Phil wasn't trying to rebuild but Phil wasn't ever trying to do a traditional rebuild. He said from the start he was going to try to win but also make sure to have a future component and he wouldn't mortgage the future just to Win Now!
Mistakes and all Phil did stay true to the original concept and even tho he didn't have picks he still managed to do a decent job with what he had. Now Phil has picks and already has some young talent in place. The timing is perfect to move forward with building a new young core!!!