Knicks · Hadn't heard this - Melo, Hornacek and Rambis had huge argument during Brooklyn game (page 1)
Begley quotes a league executive about Phil's Melo critiques -
"That one was surprising," said an executive of a team who spoke to the Knicks about an Anthony trade. "I think [Jackson] really hurt himself there."
Anyway. Time to move on from another lost season, another false savior.
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In a season littered with low points, the 2016-17 New York Knicks appeared to find rock bottom on March 12.In Brooklyn, the 11-win Nets sank 14 3-pointers in the first half against the Knicks, effectively ending New York's playoff hopes in 24 painful minutes. And head coach Jeff Hornacek wasn't happy.
Hornacek lit into the Knicks in the visitors locker room of the Barclays Center, and according to people familiar with the matter, Hornacek's diatribe was expletive-filled and delivered at a high decibel level.
It's not uncommon for a coach to go off on his players after a pathetic showing. But what happened next was a bit surprising.
Carmelo Anthony, whose default demeanor is relaxed and easygoing, responded with anger and expletives of his own. For those accustomed to seeing Anthony live by his oft-used idiom, "Stay Melo," it was jarring.
Anthony's R-rated rant essentially questioned the direction of the entire organization, according to sources. Associate head coach Kurt Rambis fired back, calling out Anthony's effort on defense.
Anthony responded again, but before things could devolve further, one Knick suggested that the players head back to the court and start warming up.
So they did.
Carmelo Anthony could waive his no-trade clause after his relationship with Phil Jackson turned frosty. Elsa/Getty Images
On the surface, some version of that incident has played out in dozens of NBA locker rooms over the years. But the way things unfolded on that Sunday afternoon in Brooklyn spoke to two glaring issues within the Knicks organization: a chasm between some veteran players and the coaching staff/management and, more importantly, Anthony's uncertain future with the organization.Over the past few weeks, Anthony has been subtly dropping hints that he's ready to waive his no-trade clause and leave New York.
Those with knowledge of the dynamic between Anthony and the Knicks believe that, while no final decision has been made, Anthony is leaning strongly toward waiving the no-trade clause at this point. Anthony said on Wednesday night that he'd "love" to be back, but wants assurances that the Knicks are committed to winning.
No matter what is said publicly, some in the organization believe the only thing that would keep Anthony on the Knicks in 2017-18 is if owner James Dolan fires team president Phil Jackson, which is now highly unlikely, since the Knicks and Jackson quietly picked up their option on the remaining two years of his contract this spring, sources familiar with the situation told ESPN.
Jackson and the Knicks did each have the option to walk away from each other at the end of this season. It was built into the contract after Year 3 because Jackson had no interest in working through a lockout.
There may have been speculation that the standoff between Jackson and Melo would end with Jackson walking away or the Knicks declining their option on his deal, but sources told ESPN the options were picked up "awhile ago." Knicks owner James Dolan publicly reinforced his commitment to Jackson in a February 10 radio interview on The Michael Kay Show on ESPN New York 98.7 FM when he said, " he planned to honor his five-year contract with Jackson "all the way to the end."
So unless things change drastically, Jackson will have the latitude to try and move Anthony if the Knicks star chooses.
To do so, he needs to find a deal that makes sense for the 32-year-old, 10-time All Star. Jackson and the Knicks spoke to at least three teams before the deadline about trades involving Anthony, who said the team never presented him with a formal deal but admitted that he considered waiving his no-trade clause prior to the deadline.
Barring something unforeseen -- such as a highly unlikely scenario in which Jackson and Anthony find common ground during their exit meeting on Thursday -- the Knicks remain committed to moving Anthony this offseason, according to league sources.
If they do execute a trade for Anthony, it will be one of the most important transactions in Jackson's presidency. Some executives around the league believe that Anthony's trade value would be higher if Jackson hadn't endorsed a column that was critical of Anthony in February.
"That one was surprising," said an executive of a team who spoke to the Knicks about an Anthony trade. "I think [Jackson] really hurt himself there."
The back-and-forth between Anthony, Hornacek and Rambis in March was but one example of the instability that plagued the 2016-17 Knicks. It typified a divide caused by some players' lack of faith in the defensive game plan under associate head coach Rambis and Hornacek's use of the triangle offense, according to sources.
Of course, the counterargument is that this year's team could have fought for a playoff spot if players gave consistent effort on both ends of the floor. Some in the organization felt that the defensive habits of Derrick Rose and Anthony had a negative influence on the club's young players. Both veterans finished among the bottom 15 at their respective positions in ESPN's defensive Real Plus-Minus, a measure of a player's contribution to his team's defense.
Another, more subtle, sign that this team didn't have great chemistry came on Jan. 10.
Rose returned to the Knicks' practice facility that morning and apologized to his teammates and coaches for going AWOL the night before. He said that he didn't mean to put his teammates and coaches in a bad spot. When he was done addressing the team, no one said a word, according to people familiar with the matter. It was an odd response, and one that reinforces the notion that this team wasn't cohesive.
The Knicks now face an important decision as Rose enters free agency. Should they bring back the oft-injured guard, who is coming off meniscus surgery, for a short-term deal? Or let him walk and sign or draft another point guard?
When Jackson spoke with ESPN's Jackie MacMullan earlier in the season, it sounded as the Knicks wouldn't hesitate to move on from Rose.
"We had the opportunity to play with Derrick and see if he does have enough left in the tank ... before we have to get into that [free] agent market again," Jackson told MacMullan.
But before Rose's most recent injury, the Knicks hadn't ruled out the possibility of re-signing the 28-year-old if they didn't have any luck with other point guard targets, such as pending free agents Jrue Holiday and Jeff Teague, according to sources.
Assuming the Knicks renounce Rose's cap hold, they should have more than $20 million to spend on free agents this summer. (That number, of course, would have been higher if Jackson hadn't agreed to a four-year, $72 million contract for Joakim Noah, who had an eventful, yet unproductive, first season in New York.)
New York finished tied with Minnesota with the sixth-worst record in the NBA and will end up with a top-10 pick in June's draft. With Kristaps Porzingis and Willy Hernangomez looking like two-thirds of a promising young frontcourt, Jackson and the Knicks have a chance to build something sustainable in the next two offseasons.
Despite the challenges facing the franchise -- and the fact that they've lost at least 50 games in each of the past three seasons -- Jackson is said to be extremely excited about the future of the Knicks.
It seems like Jackson's version of the future is unlikely to include Anthony. But the player -- and not the team president -- will have the final say.
"I have a lot of thinking and reflecting to do," Anthony said shortly before walking out of the Knicks locker room and into an uncertain offseason. "It's all on me at this point."
Its just time to part ways. I don't care about this narrative they want to paint. We're not starphuching for Melo. Were on a youth movement.... The end of discussion. Melo has a no trade clause. The Knicks can't trade him. He has to ok a trade. It's not up to the Knicks to try and do anything. I don't want to hear about bitch fits and school girl conversations.
Tell the Knicks which teams you want to go to... and then go. Bye! All this fucking drama. Let's go Knicks. That's all that matters. Go to another team. Let us pick up the pieces and keep it moving. Enough of this bullshit already
EnySpree wrote:This is tired....Its just time to part ways. I don't care about this narrative they want to paint. We're not starphuching for Melo. Were on a youth movement.... The end of discussion. Melo has a no trade clause. The Knicks can't trade him. He has to ok a trade. It's not up to the Knicks to try and do anything. I don't want to hear about bitch fits and school girl conversations.
Tell the Knicks which teams you want to go to... and then go. Bye! All this fucking drama. Let's go Knicks. That's all that matters. Go to another team. Let us pick up the pieces and keep it moving. Enough of this bullshit already
I agree partially... but the Knicks will actually need to negotiate a trade for Melo! He makes $30M with his trade kicker next season. They have to find a team that can fit him into their cap. I'm not sure they can do it.
I hope they can, because this is clearly a mess with him here now.
The team simply can't be at its best if the trust isn't there between a top player and the coaches. It's tough cuz I know Melo doesn't really want to leave. If he can't be traded it means Melo will have to accept a reduced role.
He can't expect the same prominent role if the younger players are going to be able to grow.
crzymdups wrote:EnySpree wrote:This is tired....Its just time to part ways. I don't care about this narrative they want to paint. We're not starphuching for Melo. Were on a youth movement.... The end of discussion. Melo has a no trade clause. The Knicks can't trade him. He has to ok a trade. It's not up to the Knicks to try and do anything. I don't want to hear about bitch fits and school girl conversations.
Tell the Knicks which teams you want to go to... and then go. Bye! All this fucking drama. Let's go Knicks. That's all that matters. Go to another team. Let us pick up the pieces and keep it moving. Enough of this bullshit already
I agree partially... but the Knicks will actually need to negotiate a trade for Melo! He makes $30M with his trade kicker next season. They have to find a team that can fit him into their cap. I'm not sure they can do it.
I hope they can, because this is clearly a mess with him here now.
That was the Nets game we loss and they made 20 3s and absolutely no one played defense and I ThoughtJH had lass the team at that point.
I still feel like JH loss major respect from all of the veterans when HW allowed Phil to come in a change his game plan and judging from the comments regarding veterans in the "post game show that aired last night, he felt the same way
Melo basically saw that the team had no direction and were commitming to winning
"Sources said......" "Another team exectuvive said........."
I like the part that some thought PHil would leave because of Melo, and some of you really got off on that.
Even so, whose to say Phils replacement would be friendly to Melo? Except the OP and haters.
"PHil hurt his value on that one"? Really? Can any team executive on the planet understand that this is what Melo does? Does everyone think PHil let out some great hidden secret? of course not.
so how did he hurt his value? Melo has been a good guy and publically not get into anyting with phil or the team. His coaches have had it with his defense and ball passing.
Does any team with a video player not be able to scout melo and see what he does or does not do? Phils public disclosure really point this out? OF COURSE NOT!!!
If anyting, if Melo is this miserable and wants out, that helps the team. He can say "I only want to play for clippers". If a deal can't be worked out, Melo could be told as such, and if not happy, he can sit.
This is not good for anyone. not for a healthy melo who wants to play and put up points, not good for his brand, not good for his ego (he is an allstar this year) and not good for the knicks. But it could force him to loosen his short list. He has a player option after next year. How does that work if he is waived? He'll sit, but might want a buy out. Is that for remainder of one year, or the player option as well?
If he loosens his list, it affords multiple teams to compete and if you have a market for his services, the return increases.
Im not into this who is to blame thing. Call it a clash of philosophies and a team underperforming. It happens. Tempers flare.
Now its a chess game. Melo has the veto power for sure. He can dictate a lot but at some point compromise does become an issue. Sure, teams will low ball knicks if there is little to no market for him.
If its a question of absorbing the salary, we get little in return. If its about Melo not open to different cities then Knicks and him will stare each other down.
Melo's agent should back channel some things and it stands to reason both will be reasonable. Melo was given what he wanted, knicks made an honest effort to put talent on the time without sacrificing the future, melo took a small salary decrease but got the NTC he wanted. Melo should want a team that either is a contender for obvious reasons but might see chasing a ring as a risk. If not accomplished, he could be blamed for it.
A good scenario would be Miami who can absorb his salary with bosh exemption, trade us Winslow, and if make the playoffs he'll be looking good as would his brand. Win-win. they keep their team intact, keep their draft pick and add a premier scorer and the only thing it costs them is money. Melo is a draw, and Miami needs that in that market. Weather is good, La la make company is there, the Latin American thing is good, taxes are low, and Riley might bust his ass, but he'll play hard but perhaps fewer minutes.
knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:EnySpree wrote:This is tired....Its just time to part ways. I don't care about this narrative they want to paint. We're not starphuching for Melo. Were on a youth movement.... The end of discussion. Melo has a no trade clause. The Knicks can't trade him. He has to ok a trade. It's not up to the Knicks to try and do anything. I don't want to hear about bitch fits and school girl conversations.
Tell the Knicks which teams you want to go to... and then go. Bye! All this fucking drama. Let's go Knicks. That's all that matters. Go to another team. Let us pick up the pieces and keep it moving. Enough of this bullshit already
I agree partially... but the Knicks will actually need to negotiate a trade for Melo! He makes $30M with his trade kicker next season. They have to find a team that can fit him into their cap. I'm not sure they can do it.
I hope they can, because this is clearly a mess with him here now.
That was the Nets game we loss and they made 20 3s and absolutely no one played defense and I ThoughtJH had lass the team at that point.
I still feel like JH loss major respect from all of the veterans when HW allowed Phil to come in a change his game plan and judging from the comments regarding veterans in the "post game show that aired last night, he felt the same way
Melo basically saw that the team had no direction and were commitming to winning
Meh! The vets didn't really come thru for this team so who gives a flip how they feel??? The younger players kept playing hard and listening. At this point it's really not worth arguing over a failed roster. The players we'll be moving forward with and new players added this summer are what matters. We've gotta see who stays, who goes and who we bring in!!!
CrushAlot wrote:According to Bondy this was the same game where KP made his top down comment. What a mess.
The good thing is that the younger players realize what is going on. They actually listen to what the coaches say and to the best of their ability they try to execute. This has to be the same approach from every single player, especially the most talented players. If Melo isn't going to bust it on D then what does that teach everyone else? The same goes for Rose. You can't have a couple of lazy team stars leading the way. I guarantee that if Kawhi Leonard was on this squad with a CP3 they would be much better examples to the younger players. Melo and Rose simply don't give the team that kind of example to follow.
CrushAlot wrote:According to Bondy this was the same game where KP made his top down comment. What a mess.
Whoa, didn't see that. Do you have a link for that one? Interesting.
CrushAlot wrote:According to Bondy this was the same game where KP made his top down comment. What a mess.
Makes sense.
BTW I don't know why anyone would read anything that Bondy or Isola has to say, those guys have left the farm long ago.
I can't remember 1 game this season where I thought Rose or Melo played a decent game defensively throughout. Even if they made mistakes, just a game where the effort was palpable all the way through. It's sad. To be an effective leader, you need to put in the effort even it if is not perfect.
Was trying to pay attention to Melo in last night's game, and I know it was a fluff game and all, but on offense all Melo did was stick to the high post on the weak side and either stand there or wait for the ball to come to him. Pretty good summary of his offensive season for me.
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:EnySpree wrote:This is tired....Its just time to part ways. I don't care about this narrative they want to paint. We're not starphuching for Melo. Were on a youth movement.... The end of discussion. Melo has a no trade clause. The Knicks can't trade him. He has to ok a trade. It's not up to the Knicks to try and do anything. I don't want to hear about bitch fits and school girl conversations.
Tell the Knicks which teams you want to go to... and then go. Bye! All this fucking drama. Let's go Knicks. That's all that matters. Go to another team. Let us pick up the pieces and keep it moving. Enough of this bullshit already
I agree partially... but the Knicks will actually need to negotiate a trade for Melo! He makes $30M with his trade kicker next season. They have to find a team that can fit him into their cap. I'm not sure they can do it.
I hope they can, because this is clearly a mess with him here now.
That was the Nets game we loss and they made 20 3s and absolutely no one played defense and I Thought JH had loss the team at that point.
I still feel like JH loss major respect from all of the veterans when HW allowed Phil to come in a change his game plan and judging from the comments regarding veterans in the "post game show that aired last night, he felt the same way
Melo basically saw that the team had no direction and were commitming to winningMeh! The vets didn't really come thru for this team so who gives a flip how they feel??? The younger players kept playing hard and listening. At this point it's really not worth arguing over a failed roster. The players we'll be moving forward with and new players added this summer are what matters. We've gotta see who stays, who goes and who we bring in!!!
3 Failed rosters
He (jeff) also pointed out that the younger guys although played hard, they make too many mistakes, and don't do the little things to win games
martin wrote:I try to read everything but I am well aware of Isola, Berman, and Bondy. I also try to see it and hear it from the person quoted if possible. In context, a lot of what is reported is off base.CrushAlot wrote:According to Bondy this was the same game where KP made his top down comment. What a mess.Makes sense.
BTW I don't know why anyone would read anything that Bondy or Isola has to say, those guys have left the farm long ago.
I can't remember 1 game this season where I thought Rose or Melo played a decent game defensively throughout. Even if they made mistakes, just a game where the effort was palpable all the way through. It's sad. To be an effective leader, you need to put in the effort even it if is not perfect.
Was trying to pay attention to Melo in last night's game, and I know it was a fluff game and all, but on offense all Melo did was stick to the high post on the weak side and either stand there or wait for the ball to come to him. Pretty good summary of his offensive season for me.
Just wondering.
Anthony responded again, but before things could devolve further, one Knick suggested that the players head back to the court and start warming up. So they did.
WaltLongmire wrote:So which Knick made the suggestion to go back on the court? Vet or young player?Just wondering.
Anthony responded again, but before things could devolve further, one Knick suggested that the players head back to the court and start warming up.
So they did.
I have a feeling it was Courtney Lee or Lance Thomas or maybe Kyle O'Quinn... but no real idea...
crzymdups wrote:WaltLongmire wrote:So which Knick made the suggestion to go back on the court? Vet or young player?Just wondering.
Anthony responded again, but before things could devolve further, one Knick suggested that the players head back to the court and start warming up.
So they did.
I have a feeling it was Courtney Lee or Lance Thomas or maybe Kyle O'Quinn... but no real idea...
That would have been my guess too
crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:According to Bondy this was the same game where KP made his top down comment. What a mess.Whoa, didn't see that. Do you have a link for that one? Interesting.
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:crzymdups wrote:EnySpree wrote:This is tired....Its just time to part ways. I don't care about this narrative they want to paint. We're not starphuching for Melo. Were on a youth movement.... The end of discussion. Melo has a no trade clause. The Knicks can't trade him. He has to ok a trade. It's not up to the Knicks to try and do anything. I don't want to hear about bitch fits and school girl conversations.
Tell the Knicks which teams you want to go to... and then go. Bye! All this fucking drama. Let's go Knicks. That's all that matters. Go to another team. Let us pick up the pieces and keep it moving. Enough of this bullshit already
I agree partially... but the Knicks will actually need to negotiate a trade for Melo! He makes $30M with his trade kicker next season. They have to find a team that can fit him into their cap. I'm not sure they can do it.
I hope they can, because this is clearly a mess with him here now.
That was the Nets game we loss and they made 20 3s and absolutely no one played defense and I Thought JH had loss the team at that point.
I still feel like JH loss major respect from all of the veterans when HW allowed Phil to come in a change his game plan and judging from the comments regarding veterans in the "post game show that aired last night, he felt the same way
Melo basically saw that the team had no direction and were commitming to winningMeh! The vets didn't really come thru for this team so who gives a flip how they feel??? The younger players kept playing hard and listening. At this point it's really not worth arguing over a failed roster. The players we'll be moving forward with and new players added this summer are what matters. We've gotta see who stays, who goes and who we bring in!!!
3 Failed rosters
He (jeff) also pointed out that the younger guys although played hard, they make too many mistakes, and don't do the little things to win games
It's part of the process when you play a lot of kids. You think the TWolves don't make mistakes? It's not an indictment of our younger players somehow not being normal.
You seem incapable of understanding the development process. I suggest you might not want to watch the development process of ANY YOUNG TEAM if you can't take watching young players make mistakes!!!
What do you think is gonna happen when we add another few rookies???