Knicks · What exaclty is your IDEA of a Rebuild (page 1)

I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

Rebuild is when a team gets rid of vet players and goes young in hopes of building a new, better team 3-5 seasons in the future

your not confused your trolling

change in philosophy and decision making process. This is something that is talked about but takes a long time. If you look at the knicks since ewing left and the attmepts to gain talent you see an inconsistent process. The problem is deep rooted starphuching which exchanges opportunity for proven talent. This can keep a team going but there is something called OPPORTUNITY COST! Its the unseen. Its Gerald Henderson for what became Scotty Pippen. Its Eddy for what became the picks for Noah and Aldridge. Dice for Camby and Amare. The Seen for the unseen. Opportunity Cost is unseen. Many of you exibit fear of the unknown with the exception of when Hope triumps! You'll take the promise of a pick over about anything. Me to, I love hope!

Rebuilds require PAIN. Symptoms are regret, second guessing, hindsight trolling emotional pleas, and hindsight self esteem boosting. This is thinking "I could have done a better job in the half hour I spend on the internet". Yes, of course you could. the unseen is thinking you could have done better than what was done. We are not in the room when decisions are made. Im sure Ed Tapscott thought he was making a good decision at the moment he drafted Fast Freddy Weis.

Patience has many meanings. If your a kid, it could be sitting still for a half hour in church and candy as reward. If your a knick fan, patience its waiting for the hand of god to stop slapping you in the face.

Rebuilding is a process not a destination.

fishmike wrote:your not confused your trolling

Your version to some one else's might be different, how exactly is that trolling.

there's the sixers type of rebuild, and there's a Miami type of rebuild.

fishmike wrote:your not confused your trolling

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:your not confused your trolling

Your version to some one else's might be different, how exactly is that trolling.

there's the sixers type of rebuild, and there's a Miami type of rebuild.

wargames wrote:Rebuild is when a team gets rid of vet players and goes young in hopes of building a new, better team 3-5 seasons in the future

Actually, its an interesting question mostly because of the degree of ignorance so many Knicks fans are subjected to. The answer wargames gives is kind of a generic meme about what it is.

First, rebuild is one word used for the process of transformation of the team from one thing to another. The key here is that the process only co-incidentally means that more wins and fewer losses is the result. Other processes are reload, competitive (fiscally responsible), entertaining (perpetual transformation and very profitable, see: Sterling's Clippers), and so on.

The first thing that is important is to have a postmortem of what the last process or two did right and did wrong.
A close second is an honest inventory of assets and what those assets have the potential of accomplishing.

To put this into the context of the Knicks, the Layden years dug a fiscal hole AND constrained the options for getting out of that hole. The process which didn't differ from Layden through Walsh, was to attempt to reload by mortgaging the future and taking high risk solutions.

The team Phil inherited was built almost exclusively around Anthony. The postmortem of the Walsh years had to look that way to Dolan, Phil, and the rest of the organization. So when it came time to decide on resigning Melo or be left with no Melo AND a team customized *to* Melo, Phil chose a hybrid approach that leaned toward another [Melo] reload but moved toward a high profile system of playing the game.

The last postmortem looked back at the Melo years and observed that reloading yet again to Melo was a fool's errand. Even eliminating the system wasn't going to result in a sustainable, reproducible model Knicks team (say like the Spurs, GSW, et al). You would basically create a Melo-playoff-cameo, one-and-done roster assuming even that team got that far.

So let's do a postmortem inventory of assets.

Instead of looking at Melo like a future consideration - he becomes either a tradable asset or a complementary and disposable player going forward.

The rest of the team? Similar calibration - all have some value and whoever is not cashed in remains a reasonable fit in a rebuild.

Why rebuild instead of reload [again]? First because its now clear that there's nothing to reload around. Melo is not the answer. Two, there's a young core of talent AND FINALLY an opportunity to richly mine the draft with multiple picks over time.

But Phil has qualified the idea of a rebuild. What is sounds more like in a competitive rebuild. In other words, expect young but mature talent coming in to reduce that 3-5 year NBA break-in period.

There are a ton of teams that have drafted at least 2 above average players, developed them and are still currently on their original teams. These are all playoff teams as well.

Cleveland
Washington
Milwaukee
Indiana
Golden State
LAC
Utah
Memphis
OKC
Portland

What's the point of this?

fwk00 wrote:

wargames wrote:Rebuild is when a team gets rid of vet players and goes young in hopes of building a new, better team 3-5 seasons in the future

Actually, its an interesting question mostly because of the degree of ignorance so many Knicks fans are subjected to. The answer wargames gives is kind of a generic meme about what it is.

First, rebuild is one word used for the process of transformation of the team from one thing to another. The key here is that the process only co-incidentally means that more wins and fewer losses is the result. Other processes are reload, competitive (fiscally responsible), entertaining (perpetual transformation and very profitable, see: Sterling's Clippers), and so on.

The first thing that is important is to have a postmortem of what the last process or two did right and did wrong.
A close second is an honest inventory of assets and what those assets have the potential of accomplishing.

To put this into the context of the Knicks, the Layden years dug a fiscal hole AND constrained the options for getting out of that hole. The process which didn't differ from Layden through Walsh, was to attempt to reload by mortgaging the future and taking high risk solutions.

The team Phil inherited was built almost exclusively around Anthony. The postmortem of the Walsh years had to look that way to Dolan, Phil, and the rest of the organization. So when it came time to decide on resigning Melo or be left with no Melo AND a team customized *to* Melo, Phil chose a hybrid approach that leaned toward another [Melo] reload but moved toward a high profile system of playing the game.

The last postmortem looked back at the Melo years and observed that reloading yet again to Melo was a fool's errand. Even eliminating the system wasn't going to result in a sustainable, reproducible model Knicks team (say like the Spurs, GSW, et al). You would basically create a Melo-playoff-cameo, one-and-done roster assuming even that team got that far.

So let's do a postmortem inventory of assets.

Instead of looking at Melo like a future consideration - he becomes either a tradable asset or a complementary and disposable player going forward.

The rest of the team? Similar calibration - all have some value and whoever is not cashed in remains a reasonable fit in a rebuild.

Why rebuild instead of reload [again]? First because its now clear that there's nothing to reload around. Melo is not the answer. Two, there's a young core of talent AND FINALLY an opportunity to richly mine the draft with multiple picks over time.

But Phil has qualified the idea of a rebuild. What is sounds more like in a competitive rebuild. In other words, expect young but mature talent coming in to reduce that 3-5 year NBA break-in period.

I feel you can make an argument that having a player like KP coming in next season as a 3rd Year player should shorten then rebuild timeline by default. The reason why rebuilds tend to take longer is teams spend time looking for that key piece to build around. The Knicks have that in KP.

However, I also didn't get that vibe that Phil expected a quick "competitive rebuild". To me it sounded like the plan was to bottom out (lose games) at least one more year and focus on getting the youth on the team more minutes.

In fact his entire reasoning for Melo to leave was 1) we will be losing next year so it's a waste of time for him to be here and 2) they haven't won with him in NY so it's no real loss

knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

Rebuild is when your main focus is getting young players who you believe will be effective for many years. It has nothing to do with the percentage of players you drafted. You can trade for or sign young players. But you definitely don't spend $250 mil on guys like Noah, Melo, and Rose.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:your not confused your trolling

Your version to some one else's might be different, how exactly is that trolling.

there's the sixers type of rebuild, and there's a Miami type of rebuild.

The 76ers can't get any big name players to come to Philly and Miami can get just about any big name to come to Miami.....that's the difference and it looks like right now we're gonna be in the 76ers bracket until we can go a couple of years without any crazy shyt happening with our name all over it and we start winning some games. As soon as we can do both of those then players will start looking at us again. I think it would be huge for us if Justin can talk his bro Jrue into coming to play here. A great start would be having KP, Willy, Jrue and our lottery pick. Put those 4 with some of the young guys we have that will be good rotation players and we have the start to something good.

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

Rebuild is when your main focus is getting young players who you believe will be effective for many years. It has nothing to do with the percentage of players you drafted. You can trade for or sign young players. But you definitely don't spend $250 mil on guys like Noah, Melo, and Rose.

Jesus Bonn. Statements like this are so TMZ inflammatory and out of context that they just suck.

Let's just take Melo.

In 2012-13 the Knicks had a 54 win team with Melo averaging almost 29PPG, highest in the league, and 37 MPG. Legit MVP candidate. He was 28.

2013-14 Knicks didn't do as well but Melo still brought it. Played nearly 39 minutes per game. Scored 27.4 per game, shot 40% from 3pt land. 8 RPG. Played 77 games. Only 29.

Are you telling me as a GM you would NOT bring this type of guy back even if you knew you were gonna go through some sort of rebuild? He was an UFA.

I hate the NTC but Phil is in a pickle here and has zero leverage with Melo realistically. The owner wants him to have a marque guy and is in the hunt for all star game (or was that already decided). Dude just came off of an MPV quality season - and maybe another if the record is better?

Melo comes to him and says I really really really want to stay in NY and I just proved to the organization with 2 years of buff play. I am ready for 3-4 more years at this level. If I don't get NTC I walk.

What can Phil say to this? And as GM, would you be AOK with Melo walking for nothing as your first months on job?

Frankly, I didn't think Melo would break down this fast, he is a shell of himself. Sucks.

newyorker4ever wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:your not confused your trolling

Your version to some one else's might be different, how exactly is that trolling.

there's the sixers type of rebuild, and there's a Miami type of rebuild.

The 76ers can't get any big name players to come to Philly and Miami can get just about any big name to come to Miami.....that's the difference and it looks like right now we're gonna be in the 76ers bracket until we can go a couple of years without any crazy shyt happening with our name all over it and we start winning some games. As soon as we can do both of those then players will start looking at us again. I think it would be huge for us if Justin can talk his bro Jrue into coming to play here. A great start would be having KP, Willy, Jrue and our lottery pick. Put those 4 with some of the young guys we have that will be good rotation players and we have the start to something good.

YES!!! I'm pretty sure this is how Phil and his team are looking at things. This is not the disaster that the Media wants everyone to think it is. With a little luck this can be an up and coming young team.

EnySpree wrote:

fishmike wrote:your not confused your trolling

You two are like the newer versions of Tkf and Mreinman. lean back

My idea of a rebuild is when you change the team image and culture...doesn't necessary have to be just filling the team with young inexperienced players.

Swishfm3 wrote:My idea of a rebuild is when you change the team image and culture...doesn't necessary have to be just filling the team with young inexperienced players.

I like that. Change team image, culture, direction with a mad eye towards record improvement and long term wins.

Swishfm3 wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

fishmike wrote:your not confused your trolling

You two are like the newer versions of Tkf and Mreinman. lean back

How can we be newer versions if we both been here just as long if not longer? #pause

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

Rebuild is when your main focus is getting young players who you believe will be effective for many years. It has nothing to do with the percentage of players you drafted. You can trade for or sign young players. But you definitely don't spend $250 mil on guys like Noah, Melo, and Rose.

Jesus Bonn. Statements like this are so TMZ inflammatory and out of context that they just suck.

Let's just take Melo.

In 2012-13 the Knicks had a 54 win team with Melo averaging almost 29PPG, highest in the league, and 37 MPG. Legit MVP candidate. He was 28.

2013-14 Knicks didn't do as well but Melo still brought it. Played nearly 39 minutes per game. Scored 27.4 per game, shot 40% from 3pt land. 8 RPG. Played 77 games. Only 29.

Are you telling me as a GM you would NOT bring this type of guy back even if you knew you were gonna go through some sort of rebuild? He was an UFA.

I hate the NTC but Phil is in a pickle here and has zero leverage with Melo realistically. The owner wants him to have a marque guy and is in the hunt for all star game (or was that already decided). Dude just came off of an MPV quality season - and maybe another if the record is better?

Melo comes to him and says I really really really want to stay in NY and I just proved to the organization with 2 years of buff play. I am ready for 3-4 more years at this level. If I don't get NTC I walk.

What can Phil say to this? And as GM, would you be AOK with Melo walking for nothing as your first months on job?

Frankly, I didn't think Melo would break down this fast, he is a shell of himself. Sucks.

There's no such thing as losing Melo for nothing. You're losing him for $124 mil in cap space that can be spent better. I do agree that Phil was boxed into a bad situation, though. I would have been willing to overpay with the goal of trading him but that means you cannot include an NTC. Dolan also did a foolish thing by bringing in a new president after the trade deadline and right before Melo was an FA. He should have given a new president at least a month before the deadline to figure out what to do with Melo. The dysfunction starts with Dolan, though Phil compounded the problems.
A GM also has to be aware of the effects of aging on NBA performance. It was predictable and predicted that a 32 year old by his 14th season (who has played about 20 seasons worth of minutes) would be breaking down. I'm actually impressed by how well he's held up. Very few NBA players last 35,000 minutes. A GM has to be aware that statistically most players peak around 25 to 27 and have sharp decline in their 30s. I never felt Melo was critical enough that it would be worth the gamble that he might defy the age trend. I'd take that gamble for Lebron but not for Melo.

Bonn1997 wrote:There's no such thing as losing Melo for nothing. You're losing him for $124 mil in cap space that can be spent better.

I'm sure OKC is super happy they got all that capspace in lieu of losing Durant. Yay

That's a response looking for a problem.

I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at first it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it