Winning Percentages Without their All-Star Forward
61% - Blake Griffin's Teammates (51-32)
54% - Kevin Durant's Teammates (46-39)
44% - Paul George's Teammates (37-47)
15% - Anthony's Teammates (9-51)
And just for good measure:
32% - Anthony Davis Teammates (24-51)
I know many people here already have their minds made up one way or another with Carmelo, but this was a really well-written and well-researched column. Definitely read this one if nothing else today.
Take it from Chauncey: "You got to have a really strong point guard with (Carmelo) that knows how to get him the ball, when to get him the ball and when not to get it to him. He's at his best playing like that.”
A good question to ask is: If Carmelo can win 54 games with the Knicks and with J.R. Smith and Tyson Chandler as his next best players, what might he do with Chris Paul creating easy buckets, and a rebounding force like DeAndre Jordan?
The question that keeps me mind boggled, why is melo the blame, and we disregard his support
they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.
CrushAlot@ 4/26/2017 5:49 PM
fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.
The article is worth reading. It isn't a typical daily news article. The author points out that Melo improves the Knicks win total by 19 games as well as the knicks winning percentage without Melo during the Phil era (15%).
fwk00@ 4/26/2017 5:58 PM
knicks1248 wrote: Winning Percentages Without their All-Star Forward
61% - Blake Griffin's Teammates (51-32)
54% - Kevin Durant's Teammates (46-39)
44% - Paul George's Teammates (37-47)
15% - Anthony's Teammates (9-51)
And just for good measure:
32% - Anthony Davis Teammates (24-51)
I know many people here already have their minds made up one way or another with Carmelo, but this was a really well-written and well-researched column. Definitely read this one if nothing else today.
Take it from Chauncey: "You got to have a really strong point guard with (Carmelo) that knows how to get him the ball, when to get him the ball and when not to get it to him. He's at his best playing like that.”
A good question to ask is: If Carmelo can win 54 games with the Knicks and with J.R. Smith and Tyson Chandler as his next best players, what might he do with Chris Paul creating easy buckets, and a rebounding force like DeAndre Jordan?
The question that keeps me mind boggled, why is melo the blame, and we disregard his support
He just finished a season with Derrick Rose. Maybe they should have talked to one another - ya think?
And what's with the magical thinking that its not on Melo its on the ever-elusive PG that the Knicks can't ever seem to find - Rose, Baker, Randle, Galloway, Calderon, Felton, Schved, Linn, and a parade of others.
Are we even sure Chris Paul will get him the ball?
nixluva@ 4/26/2017 6:01 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.
The article is worth reading. It isn't a typical daily news article. The author points out that Melo improves the Knicks win total by 19 games as well as the knicks winning percentage without Melo during the Phil era (15%).
I read the article the other day and it was very good. We all know this team hasn't been overrun with talent the last few years. Here's my problem tho, the way Melo dominates the ball can make the team overly reliant on him scoring. By the time you have to play without Melo no one is used to playing a lead role or even a legit secondary role.
Now once he's traded the Knicks finally will be forced to build and develop minus his presence. We got to see a little bit of what that looks like this year and it was shaky at first but you could see the players develop confidence. Just look at the Ball and Player Movement:
Bonn1997@ 4/26/2017 6:02 PM
fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.
The point is we need Melo so that we can remain a .300s rather than .100s team. It was really more in previous years though that Melo had any (albeit not huge) positive impact. This year the team was worse with him.
GustavBahler@ 4/26/2017 6:20 PM
fwk00 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote: Winning Percentages Without their All-Star Forward
61% - Blake Griffin's Teammates (51-32)
54% - Kevin Durant's Teammates (46-39)
44% - Paul George's Teammates (37-47)
15% - Anthony's Teammates (9-51)
And just for good measure:
32% - Anthony Davis Teammates (24-51)
I know many people here already have their minds made up one way or another with Carmelo, but this was a really well-written and well-researched column. Definitely read this one if nothing else today.
Take it from Chauncey: "You got to have a really strong point guard with (Carmelo) that knows how to get him the ball, when to get him the ball and when not to get it to him. He's at his best playing like that.”
A good question to ask is: If Carmelo can win 54 games with the Knicks and with J.R. Smith and Tyson Chandler as his next best players, what might he do with Chris Paul creating easy buckets, and a rebounding force like DeAndre Jordan?
The question that keeps me mind boggled, why is melo the blame, and we disregard his support
He just finished a season with Derrick Rose. Maybe they should have talked to one another - ya think?
And what's with the magical thinking that its not on Melo its on the ever-elusive PG that the Knicks can't ever seem to find - Rose, Baker, Randle, Galloway, Calderon, Felton, Schved, Linn, and a parade of others.
Are we even sure Chris Paul will get him the ball?
If you think Derrick Rose belongs any higher, your reasoning likely falls into one of two lines of thought: Either Rose's name and the remnants of his MVP reputation have swayed you, or you can't get past the fact he's averaging 18 points and 4.4 assists. No matter which school of thought you subscribe to, you'd be looking past his atrocious defense (which often involves little-to-no effort), his set-commandeering tendencies and his lack of floor-spacing ability.
I will try to find an article on Rose's rank as a PG from this season. At one point well into the season he was ranked below D-leaguers at PG by the numbers, and almost everyone else in the league.
Rose spent most of the season calling his own number. Really surprised anyone has trouble grasping that fact.
fishmike@ 4/26/2017 6:32 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.
The point is we need Melo so that we can remain a .300s rather than .100s team. It was really more in previous years though that Melo had any (albeit not huge) positive impact. This year the team was worse with him.
yea... and we also know Melo is like literally the worst defensive player in the league. Who cares. Lets move on.
franco12@ 4/26/2017 10:25 PM
You either trade Melo, or fire Phil.
Melo has to go because he's become a distraction.
He's become a distraction in part because of Phil.
But many people here are suffering from the same thought process that removing him is a simple addition through subtraction- I recall many wanted to get rid of KT because of his 1 inch vertical leap.
Phil thought Rose could fit with Melo & the Triangle.
At least half of us knew that was wrong when the deal was made.
nixluva@ 4/26/2017 11:08 PM
franco12 wrote:You either trade Melo, or fire Phil.
Melo has to go because he's become a distraction.
He's become a distraction in part because of Phil.
But many people here are suffering from the same thought process that removing him is a simple addition through subtraction- I recall many wanted to get rid of KT because of his 1 inch vertical leap.
Phil thought Rose could fit with Melo & the Triangle.
At least half of us knew that was wrong when the deal was made.
The least Rose and Melo could do is give a legit effort to buy in!!! You can try and blame Phil but that's some straight BULLSHYTE! Both are vets that have been All Stars and know damned well that you need Max Effort and Ball n Player Movement!!! No matter what play you run the goal is the same! WTF does Phil have to do with players not doing what they're being paid to do as Professionals???
F that kind of thinking! The damned less talented kids seemed to have no issues doing what they should be doing. The kids were more professional!!! Stop making excuses for players not playing! Rose was healthy enough most of the season so there's really no excuse for simply not bothering to learn how to execute. Baker and Randle had no problem picking it up cuz they actually gave a damn and put in the effort to learn.
Melo really had no excuse. He knew full well what Jeff and Phil wanted from him and that he needed to set an example to the younger guys. He was A BAD EXAMPLE!
TPercy@ 4/26/2017 11:15 PM
Bill ups says he needs a point guard who can get Melo the ball....I didn't know that there were so many creative ways of dumping the ball in the post....
nixluva@ 4/26/2017 11:20 PM
TPercy wrote:Bill ups says he needs a point guard who can get Melo the ball....I didn't know that there were so many creative ways of dumping the ball in the post....
Just insane how many excuses are made for Melo! Did he need a PG for him to not run the floor on Defense or Offense or to stop holding the ball so much? Dude is too damn comfortable. He doesn't play with a burning desire to win. Sure you get that passion a few games a year but not every night like other top players!!!
TPercy@ 4/26/2017 11:46 PM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:Bill ups says he needs a point guard who can get Melo the ball....I didn't know that there were so many creative ways of dumping the ball in the post....
Just insane how many excuses are made for Melo! Did he need a PG for him to not run the floor on Defense or Offense or to stop holding the ball so much? Dude is too damn comfortable. He doesn't play with a burning desire to win. Sure you get that passion a few games a year but not every night like other top players!!!
Agreed. Even if we did get him this superstar PG, as fwk00 pointed out, i doubt he would give him the ball...at all. I've even twice noticed that Ron baker swinging the ball in the opposite direction of Melo on purpose.
Nalod@ 4/26/2017 11:52 PM
numbers don't lie. true.
What is the record WITH Melo? Its not his "fault", he is not to blame. But his is not the solution either going forward.
nixluva@ 4/27/2017 12:16 AM
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:Bill ups says he needs a point guard who can get Melo the ball....I didn't know that there were so many creative ways of dumping the ball in the post....
Just insane how many excuses are made for Melo! Did he need a PG for him to not run the floor on Defense or Offense or to stop holding the ball so much? Dude is too damn comfortable. He doesn't play with a burning desire to win. Sure you get that passion a few games a year but not every night like other top players!!!
Agreed. Even if we did get him this superstar PG, as fwk00 pointed out, i doubt he would give him the ball...at all. I've even twice noticed that Ron baker swinging the ball in the opposite direction of Melo on purpose.
At this point I want some freaking PASSION! You watch the playoffs and the passion of the lead players is so much higher than we see from Melo at this point. He'll be fine on a playoff team but here we need more from our Frontline players.
knicks1248@ 4/27/2017 8:22 AM
Nalod wrote:numbers don't lie. true.
What is the record WITH Melo? Its not his "fault", he is not to blame. But his is not the solution either going forward.
All im saying is you better replacing him with 20 to 25 point scorer, because the rest of the team is pure trash, I'm talking straight D league.
9 wins with out him, phils record (not counting the partial 37 win season he walk into)80-160..
80 games under 500 with 3 entirely different rosters...smh..
It's ok to want to trade melo, there will always be players half the fans hate, or are done with, Goes all the way back to EWING, the problem I always have is that the replacements are so much worse.
fishmike@ 4/27/2017 8:34 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:numbers don't lie. true.
What is the record WITH Melo? Its not his "fault", he is not to blame. But his is not the solution either going forward.
All im saying is you better replacing him with 20 to 25 point scorer, because the rest of the team is pure trash, I'm talking straight D league.
9 wins with out him, phils record (not counting the partial 37 win season he walk into)80-160..
80 games under 500 with 3 entirely different rosters...smh..
It's ok to want to trade melo, there will always be players half the fans hate, or are done with, Goes all the way back to EWING, the problem I always have is that the replacements are so much worse.
smh at this! I do hope we get more guys like KP and Willy from our dleague team!
knicks1248@ 4/27/2017 8:46 AM
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:numbers don't lie. true.
What is the record WITH Melo? Its not his "fault", he is not to blame. But his is not the solution either going forward.
All im saying is you better replacing him with 20 to 25 point scorer, because the rest of the team is pure trash, I'm talking straight D league.
9 wins with out him, phils record (not counting the partial 37 win season he walk into)80-160..
80 games under 500 with 3 entirely different rosters...smh..
It's ok to want to trade melo, there will always be players half the fans hate, or are done with, Goes all the way back to EWING, the problem I always have is that the replacements are so much worse.
smh at this! I do hope we get more guys like KP and Willy from our dleague team!
I know you you think KP and willy are knicks saviors, and they do have a lot of potential, but if you can't put the right squad around them, they are pretty use less. You have seen this with Bosh in Toronto, Cousins, with sac, davis with the pelicans, KG with Minny, Shaq with the Magic, Labron with the cavs.
I mean Kareem, and wilt were traded in their primes, don't act like it can't happen with KP. Especially after Phil just said, EVERYBODY can be had for the right price
HofstraBBall@ 4/27/2017 9:32 AM
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TPercy wrote:Bill ups says he needs a point guard who can get Melo the ball....I didn't know that there were so many creative ways of dumping the ball in the post....
Just insane how many excuses are made for Melo! Did he need a PG for him to not run the floor on Defense or Offense or to stop holding the ball so much? Dude is too damn comfortable. He doesn't play with a burning desire to win. Sure you get that passion a few games a year but not every night like other top players!!!
Agreed. Even if we did get him this superstar PG, as fwk00 pointed out, i doubt he would give him the ball...at all. I've even twice noticed that Ron baker swinging the ball in the opposite direction of Melo on purpose.
At this point I want some freaking PASSION! You watch the playoffs and the passion of the lead players is so much higher than we see from Melo at this point. He'll be fine on a playoff team but here we need more from our Frontline players.
Nix, when was the last time you went to a live game? This whole notion that Melo cruises on Defense is BS fan hate. The guy has been trying as a Knick. He knows the reputation. The games I have been to, he puts in effort. I will agree that, physically, he is not the same. And is over matched at the 3. But his effort to prove people wrong has been there. Of course with lapses.
The point of the thread is that our roster sucks. Losing Melo won't change that. But also agree, it is best for everyone, if he goes. Then we can get on with blaming the next scapegoat. Already starting with KP. Think you want us to be a winning team so bad that your hoping it's as easy as losing Melo.
jrodmc@ 4/27/2017 9:32 AM
Ahhh the satisfaction of shitting in your own oatmeal. Hate just never gets old, does it?
Simple math that shows, starkly, that compared to other superstars, Melo plays with sheehit. And what's the predictable response?
1) He's a DOUCHE, move on. 2) It's HIS fault his teammates suck! 3) Uhhhhhh, he's the worst player since ...Chris Smith! Yeah, Chris Smith! 4) I still miss Gallo. Really, I do. 5) LINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN COMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEE BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK 6) He didn't win a chip with these shmoes either, so just STFU 7) He's such a cancer. Look how he's infected our favorite Latvian wet dream! 8) Willy! Willy! Willy! Willy can play the 5 and the 4 and the 3! 9) See number 8, we don't need this iso overpaid defenseless POS! Honestly, we'd win more with David Lee! 10) tkf was right, dammit!
fishmike@ 4/27/2017 9:43 AM
jrodmc wrote:Ahhh the satisfaction of shitting in your own oatmeal. Hate just never gets old, does it?
Simple math that shows, starkly, that compared to other superstars, Melo plays with sheehit. And what's the predictable response?
1) He's a DOUCHE, move on. 2) It's HIS fault his teammates suck! 3) Uhhhhhh, he's the worst player since ...Chris Smith! Yeah, Chris Smith! 4) I still miss Gallo. Really, I do. 5) LINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN COMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEE BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK 6) He didn't win a chip with these shmoes either, so just STFU 7) He's such a cancer. Look how he's infected our favorite Latvian wet dream! 8) Willy! Willy! Willy! Willy can play the 5 and the 4 and the 3! 9) See number 8, we don't need this iso overpaid defenseless POS! Honestly, we'd win more with David Lee! 10) tkf was right, dammit!
you forgot... 11) Damn if only he would play defense 12) Damn if only he would pass 13) Damn if only he were young again
That being said none of that matters. What matters is what is best for the Knicks moving on. If you think continuing to build around a scorer with declining skills and athleticism who was ranked the #431st best defender in the NBA that has a very me-first agenda that is your call. Others see it as a bad fit and want to move on.
Also I have never shat in my own oatmeal, but the day is young.
