Knicks · The case for Dennis Smith Jr (page 2)

will he feed KP?

is he better right now than Chasson Randle?

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

TPercy wrote:I just don't see how he can be compared to Rose. He is a much better defender than Rose when locked in and can score in a variety of ways.

After watching Boston play this series, I'm convinced that there is no reason why Smith can't succeed. Both the triangle and what the Celtics played incoporate scoring in 3s and moving the ball. Isiah Thomas is a ball dominant guard yet Celtics still played smoothly and dithered away from Iso ball. I don't see how Smith can't repeat that here.

the real over-the-top comp that I've heard for Smith is Westbrook. I don't see it, especially as UCLA was more than decent with him and Love. NCST nosedived so that's why I don't buy that. That said, he's a bull dog and an athlete (who was essentially recovering this past year)

So you can't individually compare players if one is on a winning team and one is on a losing team?

Huh?

Especially when you start factoring in that Smith Jr didn't have a Kevin Love on his team and he was not a second year player. This was Smith first year coming back from a major injury and he still produced.

Exactly.

I don't care about college wins and losses. You have future NBA players playing with future accountants, teachers and lawyers. Totally irrelevant.

its another piece of data. Lavar Bal purposely made sure that Lonzo played on crappy AAU teams specifically so he could teach him to elevate the play of his teammates.

Its sports. Winning and losing matters. How players handle both matters. Is it the end all be all? Of course not. But its not an irrelevant piece of data.

The other thing with winning in college is that one player can have a bigger impact there than in the NBA, especially a top flight caliber guy, so when the team piles up the losses it raises question marks.

This guy is a fascinating talent. BTW NC state had a great first half before the wheels fell off in the 2nd half. However I was impressed with how Smith played vs. some of the better teams... so despite the losses he passes the eye test (easily) vs. high end comp.

Fair enough. But at the collegiate level, the elite programs are bigger than the marquee names themselves most of the time. The program makes the player. Guys on UK, UNC, UCLA, Duke, Kansas etc are just organically going to get priority with winning. It's nearly the opposite in the league where the cornerstone player dictates the direction of the franchise.

Did Smith take possessions off (defensively as well) in college which may have been reflected in NC State's poor play? Sure, you can say he did. But hey, if that was me I'd protect my NBA interests as well after a significant surgery.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

fishmike wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

TPercy wrote:I just don't see how he can be compared to Rose. He is a much better defender than Rose when locked in and can score in a variety of ways.

After watching Boston play this series, I'm convinced that there is no reason why Smith can't succeed. Both the triangle and what the Celtics played incoporate scoring in 3s and moving the ball. Isiah Thomas is a ball dominant guard yet Celtics still played smoothly and dithered away from Iso ball. I don't see how Smith can't repeat that here.

the real over-the-top comp that I've heard for Smith is Westbrook. I don't see it, especially as UCLA was more than decent with him and Love. NCST nosedived so that's why I don't buy that. That said, he's a bull dog and an athlete (who was essentially recovering this past year)

So you can't individually compare players if one is on a winning team and one is on a losing team?

Huh?

Especially when you start factoring in that Smith Jr didn't have a Kevin Love on his team and he was not a second year player. This was Smith first year coming back from a major injury and he still produced.

Exactly.

I don't care about college wins and losses. You have future NBA players playing with future accountants, teachers and lawyers. Totally irrelevant.

its another piece of data. Lavar Bal purposely made sure that Lonzo played on crappy AAU teams specifically so he could teach him to elevate the play of his teammates.

Its sports. Winning and losing matters. How players handle both matters. Is it the end all be all? Of course not. But its not an irrelevant piece of data.

The other thing with winning in college is that one player can have a bigger impact there than in the NBA, especially a top flight caliber guy, so when the team piles up the losses it raises question marks.

This guy is a fascinating talent. BTW NC state had a great first half before the wheels fell off in the 2nd half. However I was impressed with how Smith played vs. some of the better teams... so despite the losses he passes the eye test (easily) vs. high end comp.

Fair enough. But at the collegiate level, the elite programs are bigger than the marquee names themselves most of the time. The program makes the player. Guys on UK, UNC, UCLA, Duke, Kansas etc are just organically going to get priority with winning. It's nearly the opposite in the league where the cornerstone player dictates the direction of the franchise.

Did Smith take possessions off (defensively as well) in college which may have been reflected in NC State's poor play? Sure, you can say he did. But hey, if that was me I'd protect my NBA interests as well after a significant surgery.

yea man... and thats the challenge because these kids are human. How do you tell if a guy is just a bit deflated from whats going on with the team vs. a kid that simply isnt that hard a worker?

Honestly I am pumped. The choices at 8 are very good. We just have to choose the right guy.

sidneydeane wrote:Why do ppl compare DSjr to rose like its a bad thing? Remember that rose was the best guard in the L for a couple seasons youngest ever MVP etc. If rose was getting drafted this year he would be no1 no question

Me personally...not saying it is necessarily a bad thing...really- just trying to make a comparable, which is something we all like to do.

If Smith turns out to be a better long range shooter and defender than Rose, and can actually pass the ball, I think you can make a case for taking him.

Have heard some compare him to Lilliard, which may be a fair comparison, too.

I've changed my tune a bit on him based on looking video. Interesting to hear if Jackson sees him as a legitimate possibility.

Smith's coach feels he will go before we pick, which would mean somebody dropping.

Have to think that with his ability he might attract a team below us- which means someone we like might drop to us.

TPercy wrote:I just don't see how he can be compared to Rose. He is a much better defender than Rose when locked in and can score in a variety of ways.

After watching Boston play this series, I'm convinced that there is no reason why Smith can't succeed. Both the triangle and what the Celtics played incoporate scoring in 3s and moving the ball. Isiah Thomas is a ball dominant guard yet Celtics still played smoothly and dithered away from Iso ball. I don't see how Smith can't repeat that here.

I usually compare him to Rose on offense.

We do know there have been comments about him not putting in full effort all the time.

Not sure he's faced the kind of picks you get in the NBA, but his lateral movement is very good when he is keyed in.

WaltLongmire wrote:

TPercy wrote:I just don't see how he can be compared to Rose. He is a much better defender than Rose when locked in and can score in a variety of ways.

After watching Boston play this series, I'm convinced that there is no reason why Smith can't succeed. Both the triangle and what the Celtics played incoporate scoring in 3s and moving the ball. Isiah Thomas is a ball dominant guard yet Celtics still played smoothly and dithered away from Iso ball. I don't see how Smith can't repeat that here.

I usually compare him to Rose on offense.

We do know there have been comments about him not putting in full effort all the time.

Not sure he's faced the kind of picks you get in the NBA, but his lateral movement is very good when he is keyed in.

Offensively I agree that they're similarities between the two, but his potential on defense and his shot sets him apart imo

I would rather have Ron Baker be our long term PG than this guy. He had no concept of seeing up an offense. All he can do is drive and kick out and even twin he had no idea where his teammates are. I still don't understand why people fail in love with these shoot first players especially after seeing how badly they work out.

I don't think Phil would ever draft him, but I will say this- he has, hands down, the most impressive looking highlights videos of all the prospects- his athleticism is crazy especially for someone coming off an acl tear. He almost looks too athletic, like he's another Acl tear waiting to happen

meloshouldgo wrote:I would rather have Ron Baker be our long term PG than this guy. He had no concept of seeing up an offense. All he can do is drive and kick out and even twin he had no idea where his teammates are. I still don't understand why people fail in love with these shoot first players especially after seeing how badly they work out.

Ron Baker is, and will always be, a backup PG. We're looking to get something that's a bit more. Not a backup for Baker.

Finally got a look at Smith Jr. and Ntilinka. From a brief look, I would rather draft Smith jr. Thing is I would put him at SG. Believe he would be a better fit there as a slasher, scorer, and have Baker run the point until an upgrade is possible, or desired.

It would also allow him to learn the Triangle, without the responsibility of running the point as well. Baker's ability to find cutters and open men off the dribble, combined with Smith jr's instant offense off the bench (guessing Lee will be back) could make for an effective backcourt.

Ntilinka has a nice handle, but his poor shooting is a red flag for me. Reminds me of Mudiay, he came into the league a poor shooter, and has stayed that way for the most part.

Lee is a solid 2 guard, but the Knicks could use some serious firepower in the backcourt, now that the front court is starting to solidify with Willy and KP. Smith Jr. is the kind of jolt this franchise needs to begin rebuilding in earnest.

I dunno about you guys but I've had it with players you have to say "when he's motivated" When describing them.

GustavBahler wrote:Finally got a look at Smith Jr. and Ntilinka. From a brief look, I would rather draft Smith jr. Thing is I would put him at SG. Believe he would be a better fit there as a slasher, scorer, and have Baker run the point until an upgrade is possible, or desired.

It would also allow him to learn the Triangle, without the responsibility of running the point as well. Baker's ability to find cutters and open men off the dribble, combined with Smith jr's instant offense off the bench (guessing Lee will be back) could make for an effective backcourt.

Ntilinka has a nice handle, but his poor shooting is a red flag for me. Reminds me of Mudiay, he came into the league a poor shooter, and has stayed that way for the most part.

Lee is a solid 2 guard, but the Knicks could use some serious firepower in the backcourt, now that the front court is starting to solidify with Willy and KP. Smith Jr. is the kind of jolt this franchise needs to begin rebuilding in earnest.

Frank has made great strides with his J the past few months. He's shooting 43 %. I'm not sure you need to define DSJ as a 2 if you pair him with Baker. Baker is still better off at two-guard if ever gets his stroke going. I do like the potential of Frank and Baker backcourt defensively tho.

EnySpree wrote:I dunno about you guys but I've had it with players you have to say "when he's motivated" When describing them.

Me too- But I'm also wary of labels attached to young pre pro players- The press tends to press -

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Finally got a look at Smith Jr. and Ntilinka. From a brief look, I would rather draft Smith jr. Thing is I would put him at SG. Believe he would be a better fit there as a slasher, scorer, and have Baker run the point until an upgrade is possible, or desired.

It would also allow him to learn the Triangle, without the responsibility of running the point as well. Baker's ability to find cutters and open men off the dribble, combined with Smith jr's instant offense off the bench (guessing Lee will be back) could make for an effective backcourt.

Ntilinka has a nice handle, but his poor shooting is a red flag for me. Reminds me of Mudiay, he came into the league a poor shooter, and has stayed that way for the most part.

Lee is a solid 2 guard, but the Knicks could use some serious firepower in the backcourt, now that the front court is starting to solidify with Willy and KP. Smith Jr. is the kind of jolt this franchise needs to begin rebuilding in earnest.

Frank has made great strides with his J the past few months. He's shooting 43 %. I'm not sure you need to define DSJ as a 2 if you pair him with Baker. Baker is still better off at two-guard if ever gets his stroke going. I do like the potential of Frank and Baker backcourt defensively tho.

Didn't see Frank as the threat on offense that Smith jr. is, we need that. Was thinking about the Triangle learning curve, and how it might help Smith to watch a PG run a difficult offense with some degree of proficiency, and get minutes at the same time. Less pressure on the rookie to figure it all out in a hurry. Gradually give him more responsibility.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Finally got a look at Smith Jr. and Ntilinka. From a brief look, I would rather draft Smith jr. Thing is I would put him at SG. Believe he would be a better fit there as a slasher, scorer, and have Baker run the point until an upgrade is possible, or desired.

It would also allow him to learn the Triangle, without the responsibility of running the point as well. Baker's ability to find cutters and open men off the dribble, combined with Smith jr's instant offense off the bench (guessing Lee will be back) could make for an effective backcourt.

Ntilinka has a nice handle, but his poor shooting is a red flag for me. Reminds me of Mudiay, he came into the league a poor shooter, and has stayed that way for the most part.

Lee is a solid 2 guard, but the Knicks could use some serious firepower in the backcourt, now that the front court is starting to solidify with Willy and KP. Smith Jr. is the kind of jolt this franchise needs to begin rebuilding in earnest.

Frank has made great strides with his J the past few months. He's shooting 43 %. I'm not sure you need to define DSJ as a 2 if you pair him with Baker. Baker is still better off at two-guard if ever gets his stroke going. I do like the potential of Frank and Baker backcourt defensively tho.

I agree about the defense angle! Nitty can shoot and it must be remembered that he's 18 and has a TON more growth and development ahead of him. Go look at your own 18 yr old photos and compare with you at 20 or 24. Smith is not as much of a mystery since he's more developed but will Nitty end up a better 2 Way player?

Members of the Knicks organization have been in touch with representatives for N.C. State point guard Dennis Smith Jr. about scheduling a pre-draft workout, a league source confirms. There has been no workout scheduled yet but the contact between the Knicks and Smith's camp - which was first reported by ZagsBlog - is an indication that the Knicks would like to take a closer look at Smith Jr. as a potential first-round draft pick. The Knicks have the No. 8 pick in June's draft. Team president Phil Jackson says they are looking at guards and wings. Other players whom members of the organization are fond of include French point guard Frank Ntilikina and Kentucky's De'Aaron Fox and Malik Monk, per sources.

Ian Begley, ESPN Staff Writer

At first I was skeptical but Im starting to think I can see a guy like this playing very well for us. Jeff likes to push the pace and has applauded any time a Knick attacks in transition. That certainly fits Smith's game. Half court is a different story, but with guys like Baker and Lee who are bigger guards who can defend 2s and handle the ball some you can run Smith off the ball where his cuts are impossible to follow.

Frank Jackson

Bigger and stronger than all of these guys. Much more of a PG than Monk(who is not) Doesnt have the bad habits of a Smith--played in a team system at Duke--was forced off the ball too much--but learned quality team play that Smith did not. I think he has the best 3 point shot out of all 4 for the NBA and IMHO will be more able to take it to the hoop than Frank N and Monk. Willing defender--has the physical tools. Put together--he already has NBA body.
Big shoulders big ass long arms. Showed at combine he could handle and pass when given the chance--he mustve taken instruction well--and you want that--hes a blank slate.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Finally got a look at Smith Jr. and Ntilinka. From a brief look, I would rather draft Smith jr. Thing is I would put him at SG. Believe he would be a better fit there as a slasher, scorer, and have Baker run the point until an upgrade is possible, or desired.

It would also allow him to learn the Triangle, without the responsibility of running the point as well. Baker's ability to find cutters and open men off the dribble, combined with Smith jr's instant offense off the bench (guessing Lee will be back) could make for an effective backcourt.

Ntilinka has a nice handle, but his poor shooting is a red flag for me. Reminds me of Mudiay, he came into the league a poor shooter, and has stayed that way for the most part.

Lee is a solid 2 guard, but the Knicks could use some serious firepower in the backcourt, now that the front court is starting to solidify with Willy and KP. Smith Jr. is the kind of jolt this franchise needs to begin rebuilding in earnest.

Frank has made great strides with his J the past few months. He's shooting 43 %. I'm not sure you need to define DSJ as a 2 if you pair him with Baker. Baker is still better off at two-guard if ever gets his stroke going. I do like the potential of Frank and Baker backcourt defensively tho.

Anyone who takes the time to look at Ntilikina shooting from distance can see he has a good stroke and range.

More importantly, as you say, he has worked on his shot, which tells you a lot about work ethic.

You can make an argument that the only top guard in the draft with a better looking shot than Ntilikina is Monk.

Mudiay still has simple basic shooting form issues. No comparison between the two as shooters. None.

BRIGGS wrote:Frank Jackson

Bigger and stronger than all of these guys. Much more of a PG than Monk(who is not) Doesnt have the bad habits of a Smith--played in a team system at Duke--was forced off the ball too much--but learned quality team play that Smith did not. I think he has the best 3 point shot out of all 4 for the NBA and IMHO will be more able to take it to the hoop than Frank N and Monk. Willing defender--has the physical tools. Put together--he already has NBA body.
Big shoulders big ass long arms. Showed at combine he could handle and pass when given the chance--he mustve taken instruction well--and you want that--hes a blank slate.

Smith is a bit of an enigma but Frank Jackson is even more of a question mark! Why is it that Jackson isn't considered more seriously? Smith was in a bad situation that you can explain some of his issues. Jackson has all the tools but from what I've read he's said to be more of a SG in mentality. Still have to wonder how come Jackson isn't up there with Smith in ranking. Perhaps you should do a thread making the case for Jackson.

Sangfroid wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:I would rather have Ron Baker be our long term PG than this guy. He had no concept of seeing up an offense. All he can do is drive and kick out and even twin he had no idea where his teammates are. I still don't understand why people fail in love with these shoot first players especially after seeing how badly they work out.

Ron Baker is, and will always be, a backup PG. We're looking to get something that's a bit more. Not a backup for Baker.

I know he is, my comment was that's how or a PG I think Dennis Smith is. And I am using "PG" in the traditional sense. Person who brings up the ball and sets up the offense.