Knicks · Implications of Celts & Sixers (potential) trade? (page 2)

nyknickzingis wrote:Looks like top 8

Sixers (via Boston) Fultz
Lakers Jackson
Celtics Tatum
Suns Ball
Kings Fox
Magic Monk or Isaac
Wolves Isaac or Monk or DSJ
Knicks Ntilikina or Monk (if neither Orlando or Minnesota take him)

We should try to trade up to get Ball at 4. He's a great point guard that will fit in with Willy/KP. Looks like he is falling to 4. We should trade Melo, and send the best asset from the Melo trade, the #8 pick to the Suns to get the 4th pick. It probably won't be enough, but wouldn't hurt to try. Ball is the best point guard the draft has seen in a long time. He's a real point guard. Someone that will lead the league in assists and is a leader.

Wouldn't it be great if Lavar refused to have his son work out for anyone other than NY and forced teams to trade him to NY if they drafted him at 4. He is actually capable of that, if he truly believes it's in his son's best interests.

CrushAlot wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Looks like top 8

Sixers (via Boston) Fultz
Lakers Jackson
Celtics Tatum
Suns Ball
Kings Fox
Magic Monk or Isaac
Wolves Isaac or Monk or DSJ
Knicks Ntilikina or Monk (if neither Orlando or Minnesota take him)

We should try to trade up to get Ball at 4. He's a great point guard that will fit in with Willy/KP. Looks like he is falling to 4. We should trade Melo, and send the best asset from the Melo trade, the #8 pick to the Suns to get the 4th pick. It probably won't be enough, but wouldn't hurt to try. Ball is the best point guard the draft has seen in a long time. He's a real point guard. Someone that will lead the league in assists and is a leader.

Wouldn't it be great if Lavar refused to have his son work out for anyone other than NY and forced teams to trade him to NY if they drafted him at 4. He is actually capable of that, if he truly believes it's in his son's best interests.

If Smith is available at 8 the Knicks need to consider taking him. He is too talented to be available at 8.
T

I Trust that Phil will not pass up on true talent! If DSJ is there he'll take him! It's not like the kid is a Black Hole! He passes the ball. Mostly Phil has opened up his mind to having a guard like DRose. Thing is DSJ has the potential to be better because he has better Court Vision than DRose!

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Looks like top 8

Sixers (via Boston) Fultz
Lakers Jackson
Celtics Tatum
Suns Ball
Kings Fox
Magic Monk or Isaac
Wolves Isaac or Monk or DSJ
Knicks Ntilikina or Monk (if neither Orlando or Minnesota take him)

We should try to trade up to get Ball at 4. He's a great point guard that will fit in with Willy/KP. Looks like he is falling to 4. We should trade Melo, and send the best asset from the Melo trade, the #8 pick to the Suns to get the 4th pick. It probably won't be enough, but wouldn't hurt to try. Ball is the best point guard the draft has seen in a long time. He's a real point guard. Someone that will lead the league in assists and is a leader.

Wouldn't it be great if Lavar refused to have his son work out for anyone other than NY and forced teams to trade him to NY if they drafted him at 4. He is actually capable of that, if he truly believes it's in his son's best interests.

If Smith is available at 8 the Knicks need to consider taking him. He is too talented to be available at 8.
T

I Trust that Phil will not pass up on true talent! If DSJ is there he'll take him! It's not like the kid is a Black Hole! He passes the ball. Mostly Phil has opened up his mind to having a guard like DRose. Thing is DSJ has the potential to be better because he has better Court Vision than DRose!

You have to take him based on his talent. But Phil if he isn't sold on his character. He needs to see what the market is for him. If we could package him to Dallas or Sac depending on who they took at #5 to land Frank or Monk and another asset because we aren't sold on his character then that may be the move depending on what that other asset is.

franco12 wrote:The implications to me, as a Knick fan, we are so far behind the asset race in both the near and medium term that we should not even be thinking of 3-5 years, but more like 5-10 on when we think we can build a winning franchise.

Celts are going to be monsters, and Philly will eventually put it together.

We have a pathetic excuse for a franchise & a fan base that gets all excited about undrafted scrubs that helped us win 32 games.

We need luck, big time.

I'm sorry. I just can't make sense of posts such as these. The Knicks are at a crossroads not on a slippery slope.

The Melo experiment is transformational. If he goes, an asset or two will come our way. If he stays, he'll play on Jeff's terms.

As bad as this past season was, the Knicks were competing early on and before Willy got going. We also know (and in some cases lament) that in season-ending games (and games meaningful for lower post-season position) the Knicks were VERY competitive sans Melo and playing much-maligned, system ball.

So let's talk about assets.

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

IMO, and I've seen this so often with down and out Yankee rosters, there's obvious sparks and tinder in the Knicks roster. They won't win a ring next year but they'll heat up more than the pundits can imagine.

Porzingis is not leaving the Knicks but what's missing in the fear mongering is that Porzingis has not yet even established himself as an untouchable asset. And he may never. I'm neither worried about him leaving nor do I believe there's a shred of proof that he's being anything more than an immature, star-struck brat.

The beauty of team ball is that winning elevates the individual players into star status.

Good things are coming.

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Wow. Also, Sacs 2019 pick is unprotected. It is essentially as valuable as the Brooklyn pick.

Boston gets that pick they can keep doing this for a couple of seasons. They could get 2 top 5 lotto picks in 2019 and then flip one of them again.

Don't be fooled. Boston is already drowning in players who can't get minutes. You can't draft three or four players a year and manage continuity and morale.

Lottery picks mean guaranteed contractual obligations. Ainge's luck will run out. He's riding a Brooklyn high and thinks he can do it again and again. The minute they start losing things will change. They'll be lucky to even repeat the success they had this year.

fwk00 wrote:

franco12 wrote:The implications to me, as a Knick fan, we are so far behind the asset race in both the near and medium term that we should not even be thinking of 3-5 years, but more like 5-10 on when we think we can build a winning franchise.

Celts are going to be monsters, and Philly will eventually put it together.

We have a pathetic excuse for a franchise & a fan base that gets all excited about undrafted scrubs that helped us win 32 games.

We need luck, big time.

I'm sorry. I just can't make sense of posts such as these. The Knicks are at a crossroads not on a slippery slope.

The Melo experiment is transformational. If he goes, an asset or two will come our way. If he stays, he'll play on Jeff's terms.

As bad as this past season was, the Knicks were competing early on and before Willy got going. We also know (and in some cases lament) that in season-ending games (and games meaningful for lower post-season position) the Knicks were VERY competitive sans Melo and playing much-maligned, system ball.

So let's talk about assets.

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

IMO, and I've seen this so often with down and out Yankee rosters, there's obvious sparks and tinder in the Knicks roster. They won't win a ring next year but they'll heat up more than the pundits can imagine.

Porzingis is not leaving the Knicks but what's missing in the fear mongering is that Porzingis has not yet even established himself as an untouchable asset. And he may never. I'm neither worried about him leaving nor do I believe there's a shred of proof that he's being anything more than an immature, star-struck brat.

The beauty of team ball is that winning elevates the individual players into star status.

Good things are coming.

For real?

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

Phil has yet to prove anything as a GM. He's been saying we'd compete, and the truth was we stunk. He made several big moves last summer, and every one of them FAILED- Rose, Failure, Noah, Failure. Big time failure that we will be living with for 3 more years. Gave Melo an NTC when he didn't need to, now decides to trade him, trashes him in press. Failure.

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

How can you type that? Hornacek hasn't been running his system- he was tapped because Phil had no other triangle disciples and he was the closest thing Phil could find. He even had more triangle pushed on him towards the end of the year, and that has been evident in the draft tryouts Phil has been conducting.

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

See above. I'll grant you the team looked better later in the season, but we won meaningless games and that doesn't get you anywhere but further back in the draft.

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

Let's not overrate our talent. KP and Willy looked nice, but neither have proven anything yet, except they can help a team win 30 games. Too early to tell.

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

After Phil locked up so much of the cap in Melo, Noah, Lee and Rose, you kind of have to fill in with cheap players. But even here - Lance Thomas is over paid, and looking particularly fragile lately. I'll be excited if we can trade Lee, but we won 30 games last year, and if we move Melo, we probably don't win 30 games.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

Really? I see two guys on the bubble of the NBA that fit because they understand what Phil is trying to do. When they get released, no one is picking them up.

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

For the first time in the Dolan era, yes, we have our own draft picks. That's not an accomplishment, that's the default. And we're not in the same position as the Celts or Sixers that have extra draft picks.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

See one and two above. Phil has yet to prove anything, and my concern is with the emphasize on the triangle, we'll pass on better talent for fit. Maybe Dennis Smith Jr is the second coming of Derrick Rose & Stephon Marbury. But you're better off drafting them and trading them in the future than taking the next Fredric Weis.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

See one and five above. Noah is an awful contract, and many here, myself included, called it. You didn't need hindsight- just common sense not to hand big money to a hurt player over the age of 30.

And before passing judgement, wait and see what happens with Melo. We could end up taking on some bad contracts simply because Phil boxed himself in. Courtney Lee isn't a bargain. Lance Thomas isn't a bargain.

franco12 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

franco12 wrote:The implications to me, as a Knick fan, we are so far behind the asset race in both the near and medium term that we should not even be thinking of 3-5 years, but more like 5-10 on when we think we can build a winning franchise.

Celts are going to be monsters, and Philly will eventually put it together.

We have a pathetic excuse for a franchise & a fan base that gets all excited about undrafted scrubs that helped us win 32 games.

We need luck, big time.

I'm sorry. I just can't make sense of posts such as these. The Knicks are at a crossroads not on a slippery slope.

The Melo experiment is transformational. If he goes, an asset or two will come our way. If he stays, he'll play on Jeff's terms.

As bad as this past season was, the Knicks were competing early on and before Willy got going. We also know (and in some cases lament) that in season-ending games (and games meaningful for lower post-season position) the Knicks were VERY competitive sans Melo and playing much-maligned, system ball.

So let's talk about assets.

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

IMO, and I've seen this so often with down and out Yankee rosters, there's obvious sparks and tinder in the Knicks roster. They won't win a ring next year but they'll heat up more than the pundits can imagine.

Porzingis is not leaving the Knicks but what's missing in the fear mongering is that Porzingis has not yet even established himself as an untouchable asset. And he may never. I'm neither worried about him leaving nor do I believe there's a shred of proof that he's being anything more than an immature, star-struck brat.

The beauty of team ball is that winning elevates the individual players into star status.

Good things are coming.

For real?

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

Phil has yet to prove anything as a GM. He's been saying we'd compete, and the truth was we stunk. He made several big moves last summer, and every one of them FAILED- Rose, Failure, Noah, Failure. Big time failure that we will be living with for 3 more years. Gave Melo an NTC when he didn't need to, now decides to trade him, trashes him in press. Failure.

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

How can you type that? Hornacek hasn't been running his system- he was tapped because Phil had no other triangle disciples and he was the closest thing Phil could find. He even had more triangle pushed on him towards the end of the year, and that has been evident in the draft tryouts Phil has been conducting.

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

See above. I'll grant you the team looked better later in the season, but we won meaningless games and that doesn't get you anywhere but further back in the draft.

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

Let's not overrate our talent. KP and Willy looked nice, but neither have proven anything yet, except they can help a team win 30 games. Too early to tell.

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

After Phil locked up so much of the cap in Melo, Noah, Lee and Rose, you kind of have to fill in with cheap players. But even here - Lance Thomas is over paid, and looking particularly fragile lately. I'll be excited if we can trade Lee, but we won 30 games last year, and if we move Melo, we probably don't win 30 games.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

Really? I see two guys on the bubble of the NBA that fit because they understand what Phil is trying to do. When they get released, no one is picking them up.

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

For the first time in the Dolan era, yes, we have our own draft picks. That's not an accomplishment, that's the default. And we're not in the same position as the Celts or Sixers that have extra draft picks.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

See one and two above. Phil has yet to prove anything, and my concern is with the emphasize on the triangle, we'll pass on better talent for fit. Maybe Dennis Smith Jr is the second coming of Derrick Rose & Stephon Marbury. But you're better off drafting them and trading them in the future than taking the next Fredric Weis.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

See one and five above. Noah is an awful contract, and many here, myself included, called it. You didn't need hindsight- just common sense not to hand big money to a hurt player over the age of 30.

And before passing judgement, wait and see what happens with Melo. We could end up taking on some bad contracts simply because Phil boxed himself in. Courtney Lee isn't a bargain. Lance Thomas isn't a bargain.

For items 1 thru 3, critics such as yourself love to use selective arguments and reasoning.

First, Phil has proven a number of things so far.

11.) That the Knicks can operate within a budget. All those "lousy" trades brought the Knicks into fiscally responsible territory.

12.) He largely inherited Melo in a Knick uniform and speculated that the Knicks would make the playoffs one year after another with that responsibility resting on Melo's shoulders. When that expectation ran its course, he's smartly changing course. There is NO 3 year failure yet to come - pure fiction on your part.

13.) It was Melo who repeatedly publicly called out Phil to tell him what his plans were for the coming year, "Is Phil interested in WINNING or not?" Phil answered that question in a press conference - no ring contention in sight for a few years - what a ring, go somewhere else. Hardly a "thrashing".

14.) the organization is in better shape than in decades - it JUST IS. Front-office, coaching staff, draft picks, sensible expectations, and so on. Players who come to NY and play the system as taught get sweet contract offers the Knicks can not often afford. The one high-profile player who has done everything he can to sabotage a winning culture in unmovable - that's not on Phil.

15.) you want to claim the system doesn't work but worked pretty damned well but not because of the system, the coach, or the players. Phil just flipped a switch somewhere that told the players to win. Critics such as yourself never tire with this convoluted logic.

If Hornacek was unhappy, he'd leave. If the system was a failure then why does it work with players 10-15? A coin toss put us further back in the draft. And historically, the eight position has been fairly charmed in yielding good players relative to their drafts. it also means teams must pay more attention to detail than just drafting on the musing of basketball legends such as Chad Ford.

The draft tryouts include an intelligence test. It is based on basketball fundamentals that every successful player must have. These are best demonstrated in triangle workouts. The Triangle is a metaphor for smart basketball. Its not a disease.

4.) I never said Porgy or Willie have proven a thing. Never. But they are lunch-pail, hard workers.

5.) Overpaid players. OH MY! Look around the league at the payoff other teams got from high-priced signings - Crabbe, Turner, Teague, Howard,... The Knicks are in good company.

6.) Scrappy role players are always in demand. Yu think CLE missed Delladova?

7.) Draft picks are not the default at all. They are managed assets that for the first time in decades are being treated with value. You should be saying, "THANK YOU, PHIL." AND we do have extra picks and have had under Phil. Early and the Ant didn't work out but they were noble attempts.

8 & 9) I win.

fwk00 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Wow. Also, Sacs 2019 pick is unprotected. It is essentially as valuable as the Brooklyn pick.

Boston gets that pick they can keep doing this for a couple of seasons. They could get 2 top 5 lotto picks in 2019 and then flip one of them again.

Don't be fooled. Boston is already drowning in players who can't get minutes. You can't draft three or four players a year and manage continuity and morale.

Lottery picks mean guaranteed contractual obligations. Ainge's luck will run out. He's riding a Brooklyn high and thinks he can do it again and again. The minute they start losing things will change. They'll be lucky to even repeat the success they had this year.

They will attempt to package them for a star.

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Looks like top 8

Sixers (via Boston) Fultz
Lakers Jackson
Celtics Tatum
Suns Ball
Kings Fox
Magic Monk or Isaac
Wolves Isaac or Monk or DSJ
Knicks Ntilikina or Monk (if neither Orlando or Minnesota take him)

We should try to trade up to get Ball at 4. He's a great point guard that will fit in with Willy/KP. Looks like he is falling to 4. We should trade Melo, and send the best asset from the Melo trade, the #8 pick to the Suns to get the 4th pick. It probably won't be enough, but wouldn't hurt to try. Ball is the best point guard the draft has seen in a long time. He's a real point guard. Someone that will lead the league in assists and is a leader.

Wouldn't it be great if Lavar refused to have his son work out for anyone other than NY and forced teams to trade him to NY if they drafted him at 4. He is actually capable of that, if he truly believes it's in his son's best interests.

1) Why would Melo accept a trade to Phoenix? 2) Why would Phoenix want Melo? 3) How many bad contracts would we have to absorb to make the trade work?

Ball would be a great get for this team. Howeveer it is a pipe dream.

franco12 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

franco12 wrote:The implications to me, as a Knick fan, we are so far behind the asset race in both the near and medium term that we should not even be thinking of 3-5 years, but more like 5-10 on when we think we can build a winning franchise.

Celts are going to be monsters, and Philly will eventually put it together.

We have a pathetic excuse for a franchise & a fan base that gets all excited about undrafted scrubs that helped us win 32 games.

We need luck, big time.

I'm sorry. I just can't make sense of posts such as these. The Knicks are at a crossroads not on a slippery slope.

The Melo experiment is transformational. If he goes, an asset or two will come our way. If he stays, he'll play on Jeff's terms.

As bad as this past season was, the Knicks were competing early on and before Willy got going. We also know (and in some cases lament) that in season-ending games (and games meaningful for lower post-season position) the Knicks were VERY competitive sans Melo and playing much-maligned, system ball.

So let's talk about assets.

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

IMO, and I've seen this so often with down and out Yankee rosters, there's obvious sparks and tinder in the Knicks roster. They won't win a ring next year but they'll heat up more than the pundits can imagine.

Porzingis is not leaving the Knicks but what's missing in the fear mongering is that Porzingis has not yet even established himself as an untouchable asset. And he may never. I'm neither worried about him leaving nor do I believe there's a shred of proof that he's being anything more than an immature, star-struck brat.

The beauty of team ball is that winning elevates the individual players into star status.

Good things are coming.

For real?

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

Phil has yet to prove anything as a GM. He's been saying we'd compete, and the truth was we stunk. He made several big moves last summer, and every one of them FAILED- Rose, Failure, Noah, Failure. Big time failure that we will be living with for 3 more years. Gave Melo an NTC when he didn't need to, now decides to trade him, trashes him in press. Failure.

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

How can you type that? Hornacek hasn't been running his system- he was tapped because Phil had no other triangle disciples and he was the closest thing Phil could find. He even had more triangle pushed on him towards the end of the year, and that has been evident in the draft tryouts Phil has been conducting.

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

See above. I'll grant you the team looked better later in the season, but we won meaningless games and that doesn't get you anywhere but further back in the draft.

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

Let's not overrate our talent. KP and Willy looked nice, but neither have proven anything yet, except they can help a team win 30 games. Too early to tell.

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

After Phil locked up so much of the cap in Melo, Noah, Lee and Rose, you kind of have to fill in with cheap players. But even here - Lance Thomas is over paid, and looking particularly fragile lately. I'll be excited if we can trade Lee, but we won 30 games last year, and if we move Melo, we probably don't win 30 games.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

Really? I see two guys on the bubble of the NBA that fit because they understand what Phil is trying to do. When they get released, no one is picking them up.

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

For the first time in the Dolan era, yes, we have our own draft picks. That's not an accomplishment, that's the default. And we're not in the same position as the Celts or Sixers that have extra draft picks.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

See one and two above. Phil has yet to prove anything, and my concern is with the emphasize on the triangle, we'll pass on better talent for fit. Maybe Dennis Smith Jr is the second coming of Derrick Rose & Stephon Marbury. But you're better off drafting them and trading them in the future than taking the next Fredric Weis.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

See one and five above. Noah is an awful contract, and many here, myself included, called it. You didn't need hindsight- just common sense not to hand big money to a hurt player over the age of 30.

And before passing judgement, wait and see what happens with Melo. We could end up taking on some bad contracts simply because Phil boxed himself in. Courtney Lee isn't a bargain. Lance Thomas isn't a bargain.

franco12 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

franco12 wrote:The implications to me, as a Knick fan, we are so far behind the asset race in both the near and medium term that we should not even be thinking of 3-5 years, but more like 5-10 on when we think we can build a winning franchise.

Celts are going to be monsters, and Philly will eventually put it together.

We have a pathetic excuse for a franchise & a fan base that gets all excited about undrafted scrubs that helped us win 32 games.

We need luck, big time.

I'm sorry. I just can't make sense of posts such as these. The Knicks are at a crossroads not on a slippery slope.

The Melo experiment is transformational. If he goes, an asset or two will come our way. If he stays, he'll play on Jeff's terms.

As bad as this past season was, the Knicks were competing early on and before Willy got going. We also know (and in some cases lament) that in season-ending games (and games meaningful for lower post-season position) the Knicks were VERY competitive sans Melo and playing much-maligned, system ball.

So let's talk about assets.

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

IMO, and I've seen this so often with down and out Yankee rosters, there's obvious sparks and tinder in the Knicks roster. They won't win a ring next year but they'll heat up more than the pundits can imagine.

Porzingis is not leaving the Knicks but what's missing in the fear mongering is that Porzingis has not yet even established himself as an untouchable asset. And he may never. I'm neither worried about him leaving nor do I believe there's a shred of proof that he's being anything more than an immature, star-struck brat.

The beauty of team ball is that winning elevates the individual players into star status.

Good things are coming.

For real?

1.) a strong front office with Dolan out of the process

Phil has yet to prove anything as a GM. He's been saying we'd compete, and the truth was we stunk. He made several big moves last summer, and every one of them FAILED- Rose, Failure, Noah, Failure. Big time failure that we will be living with for 3 more years. Gave Melo an NTC when he didn't need to, now decides to trade him, trashes him in press. Failure.

2.) a coach who is being given a green light to coach to his system without starphuk consideration

How can you type that? Hornacek hasn't been running his system- he was tapped because Phil had no other triangle disciples and he was the closest thing Phil could find. He even had more triangle pushed on him towards the end of the year, and that has been evident in the draft tryouts Phil has been conducting.

3.) a system that at season's end showed results

See above. I'll grant you the team looked better later in the season, but we won meaningless games and that doesn't get you anywhere but further back in the draft.

4.) a strong, deep, and young front-court who are motivated to improve themselves and hate to lose

Let's not overrate our talent. KP and Willy looked nice, but neither have proven anything yet, except they can help a team win 30 games. Too early to tell.

5.) MANY reasonable role players on attractive contracts - tradable or keepable.

After Phil locked up so much of the cap in Melo, Noah, Lee and Rose, you kind of have to fill in with cheap players. But even here - Lance Thomas is over paid, and looking particularly fragile lately. I'll be excited if we can trade Lee, but we won 30 games last year, and if we move Melo, we probably don't win 30 games.

6.) TWO young, scrappy PG candidates in Randle and Baker - too inexperienced to write off as insignificant - both likely to become NBA mainstay players

Really? I see two guys on the bubble of the NBA that fit because they understand what Phil is trying to do. When they get released, no one is picking them up.

7.) Draft picks now and continuing into the future as far as the eye can see.

For the first time in the Dolan era, yes, we have our own draft picks. That's not an accomplishment, that's the default. And we're not in the same position as the Celts or Sixers that have extra draft picks.

8.) Talent evaluators who can make those picks count. They aren't always right but they are damned close when they aren't spot on.

See one and two above. Phil has yet to prove anything, and my concern is with the emphasize on the triangle, we'll pass on better talent for fit. Maybe Dennis Smith Jr is the second coming of Derrick Rose & Stephon Marbury. But you're better off drafting them and trading them in the future than taking the next Fredric Weis.

9.) A storied franchise finally wisely managing cap space.

See one and five above. Noah is an awful contract, and many here, myself included, called it. You didn't need hindsight- just common sense not to hand big money to a hurt player over the age of 30.

And before passing judgement, wait and see what happens with Melo. We could end up taking on some bad contracts simply because Phil boxed himself in. Courtney Lee isn't a bargain. Lance Thomas isn't a bargain.

Agreed....When I saw the initial post, I was going to do a break down myself, until I saw yours. Good job!

nixluva wrote:

franco12 wrote:The implications to me, as a Knick fan, we are so far behind the asset race in both the near and medium term that we should not even be thinking of 3-5 years, but more like 5-10 on when we think we can build a winning franchise.

Celts are going to be monsters, and Philly will eventually put it together.

We have a pathetic excuse for a franchise & a fan base that gets all excited about undrafted scrubs that helped us win 32 games.

We need luck, big time.

This is HYPEBOLE! Having picks doesn't mean you're automatically going to get all your moves right. Yes the Knicks are behind in terms of assets but they have opportunities to close the gap. Until we see what actually happens it's a bit premature to be calling success for Philly and Boston.

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EnySpree wrote:

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Well... seems like Fultz, Ball, Jackson is the top 3.

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

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Well... seems like Fultz, Ball, Jackson is the top 3.

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

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Well... seems like Fultz, Ball, Jackson is the top 3.

Boston could be taking Tatum

BigRedDog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

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Well... seems like Fultz, Ball, Jackson is the top 3.

Boston could be taking Tatum

yellowboy90 wrote:If I'm Boston I'm on the phone with Sac just in case the Lakers pass on Ball to take Jackson. Pick up the 5th and 10th picks to take two of Isaac/Tatum/Collins/Monk