Knicks · Playing Devil's Advocate with THJ Offer Sheet (page 1)
1) Following the Korver trade last year, THJ averaged 18 ppg on 47% shooting from the field and 38% shooting from 3 (elite SG numbers across the board). By giving him this offer sheet, the assumption is that he can produce like this for the 4 year term of the contract. If so, this price becomes more than reasonable.
To put it another way, if I told you Player 'A' (forget the name right now) who is 25 years old will average 18 - 20 ppg on 47% shooting and 37% from 3, would you offer him a 4 year, 71 million contract? Your answer would be: yes...that would be a bargain for those statistics and a player that age entering his prime. The question remains: can he consistently produce like this or was it a fluke?
2) In the playoffs, he was one of the leading scorers on the Hawks and impressed outplaying Bazemore, who has a similar deal to what we just offered THJ and was invisible in the playoffs. He showed he can step up and play under pressure and be a lead guy. Not every player can do this. He has this in his genes from his father, who was a clutch player and played better under pressure. You don't think it's valuable to have a player like this on your team?
3) Regardless of the amount, he fits the timeline of the rebuild with our young core. He's 25, so you add him along to the core of KP, Frank, Willy, Baker and Dotson (all under 25).
4) Say what you want about him, but he worked on his game like a dog and had a breakout campaign last year that came out of nowhere. You have to respect a player like that. Being delegated to the D League I'm sure humbled him. And instead of sulking, he worked on his game and vastly improved. The Hawks GM is on record saying he would match any offer for him, although granted he never expected this type of amount. But they value him and wanted to keep him. They see him as part of their rebuild.
5) This is not the THJ we remembered. He got sent down to the D league to work on his defense. And he did and improved. He's a much better all around player who is more of a 2 way player now. He has polished his game.
6) Melo will be traded, and we need another scorer to absorb the loss. That's exactly what THJ is: a flat our scorer
7) If we get THJ, Lee will be moved for a salary dump. He's at 12 mill per, so that will offset THJ. I love Lee; he was my favorite Knick last year, but at 31, does not fit out timeline.
Again, the question is: do you think that THJ's breakout second half and playoff run last year was legit or a fluke? If it's legit, then the contract is not as outrageous as it appears.
Cartman718 wrote:i would have wanted him back but probably at 10 million less over 4 years. shumpert 10 per year. thj 18 per year? if you look at offense defense differential is it that different from each other and i agree i would not want shumpert.
In this market 15 mil is about right. To force Atlanta to let Junior go we had to over pay. So the second look at this deal its not that bad. Crabbe is my comparison... Hes a bum, Junior is a legit scorer.
If we could get a player from the 2014 draft in our next few moves we would have went back to the future on this rebuild
Edit: actually that guy would be Layberie (shout out to Early and Thanasis)
EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:i would have wanted him back but probably at 10 million less over 4 years. shumpert 10 per year. thj 18 per year? if you look at offense defense differential is it that different from each other and i agree i would not want shumpert.In this market 15 mil is about right. To force Atlanta to let Junior go we had to over pay. So the second look at this deal its not that bad. Crabbe is my comparison... Hes a bum, Junior is a legit scorer.
yes cause Crabbe should be your level set right?
Cartman718 wrote:EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:i would have wanted him back but probably at 10 million less over 4 years. shumpert 10 per year. thj 18 per year? if you look at offense defense differential is it that different from each other and i agree i would not want shumpert.In this market 15 mil is about right. To force Atlanta to let Junior go we had to over pay. So the second look at this deal its not that bad. Crabbe is my comparison... Hes a bum, Junior is a legit scorer.
yes cause Crabbe should be your level set right?
Contracts are the same... Crabbe has been garbage. Junior has a chance to have a breakout year
Hard to trust the judgement of someone who has delivered little, if anything for this franchise, throughout many years of service.
I guess we're going to find out just how much THJ's game has changed, and if he learned any lessons from his last time in NY. I hope it works out.
EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:i would have wanted him back but probably at 10 million less over 4 years. shumpert 10 per year. thj 18 per year? if you look at offense defense differential is it that different from each other and i agree i would not want shumpert.In this market 15 mil is about right. To force Atlanta to let Junior go we had to over pay. So the second look at this deal its not that bad. Crabbe is my comparison... Hes a bum, Junior is a legit scorer.
yes cause Crabbe should be your level set right?
Contacts are the same... Crabbe has been garbage. Junior has a chance to have a breakout year
You had a chance to run spell check too, but that didn't happen. I had a chance to ignore your argument, that didn't happen either. Hillary had a chance to become the first woman president of the US...shall I go on?
Like you, Atlanta needs to "Match One" 
joec32033 wrote:I posted on the other thread. THJ's contract is ranked at 15 among NBA shooting guards.
16 cuz of Crabbe
EnySpree wrote:joec32033 wrote:I posted on the other thread. THJ's contract is ranked at 15 among NBA shooting guards.16 cuz of Crabbe
7 July 2017 0:32 LAST EDITED: 7 July 2017 0:52Andrew wrote:15M the starting point for a starting 2 guard? Similar to the contract the Hawks gave to Kent Bazemore. Someone list some other contracts signed for shooting guards (starters)
2017 Shooting Guard Cap Hit Rankings
2017 Shooting Guard Cap Hit Rankings
http://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings/cap-hit/shooting-guard/
Player Pts/Ast/Reb/Per (per ESPN player cards)
2017 cap-hit
1 James Harden
James Harden
Shooting Guard $28,299,3992 DeMar DeRozan
DeMar DeRozan
Shooting Guard $27,739,9753 C.J. McCollum /23.0 3.6 3.6 19.99
C.J. McCollum
Shooting Guard $23,962,5724 Dwyane Wade
Dwyane Wade
Shooting Guard $23,800,0005 Bradley Beal /23.1 3.5 3.1 20.21
Bradley Beal
Shooting Guard $23,775,5066 J.J. Redick
J.J. Redick
Shooting Guard $23,000,0007 Nicolas Batum /15.1 5.9 6.2 15.86
Nicolas Batum
Shooting Guard $22,434,7838 Victor Oladipo /15.9 2.6 4.3 13.62
Victor Oladipo
Shooting Guard $21,000,0009 Jimmy Butler
Jimmy Butler
Shooting Guard $19,300,89410 Wesley Matthews/13.5 2.9 3.5 11.93
Wesley Matthews
Shooting Guard $17,884,17511 Klay Thompson /22.3 2.1 3.7 17.53
Klay Thompson
Shooting Guard $17,826,15012 Andre Iguodala /7.6 3.4 4.0 14.37
Andre Iguodala
Shooting Guard $17,391,30413 Evan Fournier/17.2 3.0 3.1 13.99
Evan Fournier
Shooting Guard $17,000,00014 Tim Hardaway Jr./14.5 2.3 2.8 15.26
Tim Hardaway Jr.
Shooting Guard $16,511,62815 Jamal Crawford/12.3 2.6 1.6 12.06
Jamal Crawford
Shooting Guard $14,246,98816 J.R. Smith /8.6 1.5 2.8 8.11
J.R. Smith
Shooting Guard $13,760,00017 Eric Gordon /16.2 2.5 2.7 13.22
Eric Gordon
Shooting Guard $12,943,02018 Dion Waiters /15.8 4.3 3.3 14.61
Dion Waiters
Shooting Guard $12,093,02319 Austin Rivers
Austin Rivers
Shooting Guard $11,825,00020 Courtney Lee
Courtney Lee
Shooting Guard $11,747,89021 Jordan Clarkson
Jordan Clarkson
Shooting Guard $11,562,50022 Iman Shumpert
Iman Shumpert
Shooting Guard $10,337,07923 Danny Green
Danny Green
Shooting Guard $10,000,00024 Matthew Dellavedova
Matthew Dellavedova
Shooting Guard $9,607,50025 Andre Roberson
Andre Roberson
Shooting Guard $9,259,25926 Avery Bradley
Avery Bradley
Shooting Guard $8,808,98927 Bogdan Bogdanovic
Bogdan Bogdanovic
Shooting Guard $8,571,42928 E'Twaun Moore
E'Twaun Moore
Shooting Guard $8,445,02429 Vince Carter
Vince Carter
Shooting Guard $8,000,000Garrett Temple
Garrett Temple
Shooting Guard $8,000,00031 Corey Brewer
Corey Brewer
Shooting Guard $7,579,36632 Louis Williams
Louis Williams
Shooting Guard $7,000,000Jeremy Lamb
Jeremy Lamb
Shooting Guard $7,000,00034 Kyle Korver
Kyle Korver
Shooting Guard $6,481,48135 Wayne Ellington
Wayne Ellington
Shooting Guard $6,270,00036 Tyler Johnson
Tyler Johnson
Shooting Guard $5,881,260Wesley Johnson
Wesley Johnson
Shooting Guard $5,881,26038 Alex Abrines
Alex Abrines
Shooting Guard $5,725,00039 Ben McLemore
Ben McLemore
Shooting Guard $5,192,00040 Dante Exum
Dante Exum
Shooting Guard $4,992,38541 Justin Holiday
Justin Holiday
Shooting Guard $4,390,24442 Nik Stauskas
Nik Stauskas
Shooting Guard $3,807,14743 Buddy Hield
Buddy Hield
Shooting Guard $3,675,48044 Will Barton
Will Barton
Shooting Guard $3,533,33345 Mike Miller
Mike Miller
Shooting Guard $3,500,00046 Troy Daniels
Troy Daniels
Shooting Guard $3,408,52047 Jodie Meeks
Jodie Meeks
Shooting Guard $3,290,00048 Zach LaVine
Zach LaVine
Shooting Guard $3,202,21849 Seth Curry
Seth Curry
Shooting Guard $3,028,41050 Tomas Satoransky
Tomas Satoransky
Shooting Guard $3,000,00051 Malik Monk
Malik Monk
Shooting Guard $2,904,48052 Luke Kennard
Luke Kennard
Shooting Guard $2,759,28053 Donovan Mitchell
Donovan Mitchell
Shooting Guard $2,621,28054 Gary Harris
Gary Harris
Shooting Guard $2,550,05555 Malcom Delaney
Malcom Delaney
Shooting Guard $2,500,00056 Rodney Hood
Rodney Hood
Shooting Guard $2,386,86457 Devin Booker
Devin Booker
Shooting Guard $2,319,36058 Denzel Valentine
Denzel Valentine
Shooting Guard $2,186,40059 Rashad Vaughn
Rashad Vaughn
Shooting Guard $1,889,04060 Jordan Crawford
Jordan Crawford
Shooting Guard $1,709,53861 Malik Beasley
Malik Beasley
Shooting Guard $1,700,64062 Caris LeVert
Caris LeVert
Shooting Guard $1,632,48063 Justin Anderson
Justin Anderson
Shooting Guard $1,579,44064 Archie Goodwin
Archie Goodwin
Shooting Guard $1,577,230DeAndre Liggins
DeAndre Liggins
Shooting Guard $1,577,23066 DeAndre' Bembry
DeAndre' Bembry
Shooting Guard $1,567,20067 Elijah Millsap
Elijah Millsap
Shooting Guard $1,524,305Joe Harris
Joe Harris
Shooting Guard $1,524,305Sean Kilpatrick
Sean Kilpatrick
Shooting Guard $1,524,30570 Malachi Richardson
Malachi Richardson
Shooting Guard $1,504,56071 Pat Connaughton
Pat Connaughton
Shooting Guard $1,471,382Norman Powell
Norman Powell
Shooting Guard $1,471,382Josh Richardson
Josh Richardson
Shooting Guard $1,471,382Glen Robinson III
Glen Robinson III
Shooting Guard $1,471,382Axel Toupane
Axel Toupane
Shooting Guard $1,471,382Briante Weber
Briante Weber
Shooting Guard $1,471,38277 Furkan Korkmaz
Furkan Korkmaz
Shooting Guard $1,465,92078 Josh Hart
Josh Hart
Shooting Guard $1,394,52079 Patrick McCaw
Patrick McCaw
Shooting Guard $1,312,611Rodney McGruder
Rodney McGruder
Shooting Guard $1,312,611Sheldon McLellan
Sheldon McLellan
Shooting Guard $1,312,611David Nwaba
David Nwaba
Shooting Guard $1,312,611Wayne Selden
Wayne Selden
Shooting Guard $1,312,611Bryn Forbes
Bryn Forbes
Shooting Guard $1,312,611Michael Gbinije
Michael Gbinije
Shooting Guard $1,312,611Marcus Georges-Hunt
Marcus Georges-Hunt
Shooting Guard $1,312,611Treveon Graham
Treveon Graham
Shooting Guard $1,312,611Malcolm Brogdon
Malcolm Brogdon
Shooting Guard $1,312,61189 Davon Reed
Davon Reed
Shooting Guard $815,615
Edit: 14. My bad.
SocraticBallin22 wrote:I know the consensus is that it's an insane amount of money and commitment for THJ--and I may agree--but please allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a second and make the Case for the THJ Offer Sheet:1) Following the Korver trade last year, THJ averaged 18 ppg on 47% shooting from the field and 38% shooting from 3 (elite SG numbers across the board). By giving him this offer sheet, the assumption is that he can produce like this for the 4 year term of the contract. If so, this price becomes more than reasonable.
To put it another way, if I told you Player 'A' (forget the name right now) who is 25 years old will average 18 - 20 ppg on 47% shooting and 37% from 3, would you offer him a 4 year, 71 million contract? Your answer would be: yes...that would be a bargain for those statistics and a player that age entering his prime. The question remains: can he consistently produce like this or was it a fluke?
Yes, but it was a contract year and he's a streaky shooter. Streaky shooter gets hot for 2 months in a contract year- this rarely ends well.
2) In the playoffs, he was one of the leading scorers on the Hawks and impressed outplaying Bazemore, who has a similar deal to what we just offered THJ and was invisible in the playoffs. He showed he can step up and play under pressure and be a lead guy. Not every player can do this. He has this in his genes from his father, who was a clutch player and played better under pressure. You don't think it's valuable to have a player like this on your team?
His dad used to drive me insane with his clutch playoff performances- would be great if he'd inherited the gene! Unfortunately his shooting numbers were absolutely abysmal in the playoffs this year: FG: .329 and 3Pt: .262. The previous playoffs he averaged: FG: .269 and 3PT: .143
3) Regardless of the amount, he fits the timeline of the rebuild with our young core. He's 25, so you add him along to the core of KP, Frank, Willy, Baker and Dotson (all under 25).
I would also agree with this- if you're going to give out a hefty contract at least do it on a youngish player with upside rather than a declining vet (which is what we usually end up doing)
4) Say what you want about him, but he worked on his game like a dog and had a breakout campaign last year that came out of nowhere. You have to respect a player like that. Being delegated to the D League I'm sure humbled him. And instead of sulking, he worked on his game and vastly improved. The Hawks GM is on record saying he would match any offer for him, although granted he never expected this type of amount. But they value him and wanted to keep him. They see him as part of their rebuild.
Hawks were the right environment for him to get his act together- we're not. I expect his defense to slide back and I expect him to chuck more.
5) This is not the THJ we remembered. He got sent down to the D league to work on his defense. And he did and improved. He's a much better all around player who is more of a 2 way player now. He has polished his game.
He looked awful in preseason (people were posting how he was shooting soemthing like 10%, then he became average, then he had a hot spell. He's streaky, I'm not convinced he's turned a corner
6) Melo will be traded, and we need another scorer to absorb the loss. That's exactly what THJ is: a flat our scorer
He was a selfish chucker last time he was here. On a bum team do you honestly expect him not to regress back to that? We don't need to replace Melo with another no-defense chucker.
7) If we get THJ, Lee will be moved for a salary dump. He's at 12 mill per, so that will offset THJ. I love Lee; he was my favorite Knick last year, but at 31, does not fit out timeline.Again, the question is: do you think that THJ's breakout second half and playoff run last year was legit or a fluke? If it's legit, then the contract is not as outrageous as it appears.
I think it was a fluke. I think he'll be our new JR Smith (though with less off he court stuff). I agree about the need to move Lee, though I think he also is a good vet to have amongst the young players.
EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:i would have wanted him back but probably at 10 million less over 4 years. shumpert 10 per year. thj 18 per year? if you look at offense defense differential is it that different from each other and i agree i would not want shumpert.In this market 15 mil is about right. To force Atlanta to let Junior go we had to over pay. So the second look at this deal its not that bad. Crabbe is my comparison... Hes a bum, Junior is a legit scorer.
yes cause Crabbe should be your level set right?
Contracts are the same... Crabbe has been garbage. Junior has a chance to have a breakout year
What did Crabbe shot from 3 last year? Hardaway?
EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:i would have wanted him back but probably at 10 million less over 4 years. shumpert 10 per year. thj 18 per year? if you look at offense defense differential is it that different from each other and i agree i would not want shumpert.In this market 15 mil is about right. To force Atlanta to let Junior go we had to over pay. So the second look at this deal its not that bad. Crabbe is my comparison... Hes a bum, Junior is a legit scorer.
Agreed....All NBA teams overpay to get the player away from the home team...I would much tather overpay for a 25yr who is trending up than a broken down/oft injured player whose good yrs are behind him...
franco12 wrote:Jerome James
Not even remotely the same...James had like, 2-3 good games in the playoffs and nothing to show before it...Hardaway has shown way more potential than James. Not even close.
SocraticBallin22 wrote:I know the consensus is that it's an insane amount of money and commitment for THJ--and I may agree--but please allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a second and make the Case for the THJ Offer Sheet:1) Following the Korver trade last year, THJ averaged 18 ppg on 47% shooting from the field and 38% shooting from 3 (elite SG numbers across the board). By giving him this offer sheet, the assumption is that he can produce like this for the 4 year term of the contract. If so, this price becomes more than reasonable.
To put it another way, if I told you Player 'A' (forget the name right now) who is 25 years old will average 18 - 20 ppg on 47% shooting and 37% from 3, would you offer him a 4 year, 71 million contract? Your answer would be: yes...that would be a bargain for those statistics and a player that age entering his prime. The question remains: can he consistently produce like this or was it a fluke?
2) In the playoffs, he was one of the leading scorers on the Hawks and impressed outplaying Bazemore, who has a similar deal to what we just offered THJ and was invisible in the playoffs. He showed he can step up and play under pressure and be a lead guy. Not every player can do this. He has this in his genes from his father, who was a clutch player and played better under pressure. You don't think it's valuable to have a player like this on your team?
3) Regardless of the amount, he fits the timeline of the rebuild with our young core. He's 25, so you add him along to the core of KP, Frank, Willy, Baker and Dotson (all under 25).
4) Say what you want about him, but he worked on his game like a dog and had a breakout campaign last year that came out of nowhere. You have to respect a player like that. Being delegated to the D League I'm sure humbled him. And instead of sulking, he worked on his game and vastly improved. The Hawks GM is on record saying he would match any offer for him, although granted he never expected this type of amount. But they value him and wanted to keep him. They see him as part of their rebuild.
5) This is not the THJ we remembered. He got sent down to the D league to work on his defense. And he did and improved. He's a much better all around player who is more of a 2 way player now. He has polished his game.
6) Melo will be traded, and we need another scorer to absorb the loss. That's exactly what THJ is: a flat our scorer
7) If we get THJ, Lee will be moved for a salary dump. He's at 12 mill per, so that will offset THJ. I love Lee; he was my favorite Knick last year, but at 31, does not fit out timeline.
Again, the question is: do you think that THJ's breakout second half and playoff run last year was legit or a fluke? If it's legit, then the contract is not as outrageous as it appears.
Good post. THJ's money is right in line with what others are getting....he's young, played well, and hopefully trending up. Knicks may have had to throw some more $ at him so ATL would not match. I think most that complain about the $ aren't looking at what the norm is for other players these days.
GustavBahler wrote:If the Knicks really are going to hire another GM, it would have been smarter IMO to let his successor build the team being left with no additional contracts beyond 2 years. Id like to know if Mills is the temporary or the permanent GM? Dont believe thats really clear at this point. This might be yet another tryout for Mills.Hard to trust the judgement of someone who has delivered little, if anything for this franchise, throughout many years of service.
I guess we're going to find out just how much THJ's game has changed, and if he learned any lessons from his last time in NY. I hope it works out.
By the time the Knicks hire a new GM, the market will be dried up...Not mad at this signing at all. Young player who fits in with the rebuild theme and is trending up. I watched him a ton this past season his confidence level is through the roof...With the minutes, he'll average close to 18 per for us...He took over games down the stretch for the Hawks and at times, was their best player.
EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:EnySpree wrote:Cartman718 wrote:i would have wanted him back but probably at 10 million less over 4 years. shumpert 10 per year. thj 18 per year? if you look at offense defense differential is it that different from each other and i agree i would not want shumpert.In this market 15 mil is about right. To force Atlanta to let Junior go we had to over pay. So the second look at this deal its not that bad. Crabbe is my comparison... Hes a bum, Junior is a legit scorer.
yes cause Crabbe should be your level set right?
Contracts are the same... Crabbe has been garbage. Junior has a chance to have a breakout year
I'm sure the Blazers management said the same thing about Crabbe when they convinced themselves to give him that deal.
Uptown wrote:GustavBahler wrote:If the Knicks really are going to hire another GM, it would have been smarter IMO to let his successor build the team being left with no additional contracts beyond 2 years. Id like to know if Mills is the temporary or the permanent GM? Dont believe thats really clear at this point. This might be yet another tryout for Mills.Hard to trust the judgement of someone who has delivered little, if anything for this franchise, throughout many years of service.
I guess we're going to find out just how much THJ's game has changed, and if he learned any lessons from his last time in NY. I hope it works out.
By the time the Knicks hire a new GM, the market will be dried up...Not mad at this signing at all. Young player who fits in with the rebuild theme and is trending up. I watched him a ton this past season his confidence level is through the roof...With the minutes, he'll average close to 18 per for us...He took over games down the stretch for the Hawks and at times, was their best player.
Would not have bothered me if it did dry up. Not sure if THJ has been "trending up" long enough to earn that deal. Not so sure they should give a 4 year deal to someone who couldn't handle playing in NY his last time here. Its not like Hardaway is coming back to a different situation.