Knicks · Steve Mills should remain the GM this year, and here's why (page 1)

So Griffin drops out because the same yes men are going to have final say, and Knicks fans are upset that there is no change. If we really want to clean house, then Dolan needs to make Mills the GM and president and let him run with it. If these guys Dolan is loyal too actually have talent, then Give them the chance to provide it. If not, then we put pressure on Dolan to truly clean house. But if we hire another GM now, that guy is just going to be the front man and escapegoat when it all falls apart. Give Mills and everyone else there all the rope they need to hang themselves.

Regarding this Hardaway signing, I will wait to see what we look like after the season starts. If Hardaway turns into a 20+ scorer than made it is not as bad a signing as we all believe it is.

What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills is too smart to take the heat. Phil was the fall guy when Mills was doing "heavy lifting". He knows the game. Now Phil is dead, and Griffin was out, he would probably find another one. Money is money, he will get one guy willing to be his puppet. When it is too hot, he would cut the bait and fire that guy.

Mills will never die because he is a friend of Dolan. We got Phil fired, so we deserve everything out of it.

http://nypost.com/2017/07/09/firing-phil...
"Mills cemented his legacy as the worst GM in the history of basketball. He single-handedly … ruined the Knicks’ chances of ever winning a championship. It goes without saying, Mills is horrible at his job.”

Which isn’t to say the hacker was wrong, of course.

The truth is Mills looks like just one more empty suit who has managed to curry enough favor to stay at Dolan’s right hand. In just about any endeavor in life, such loyalty would be laudable. In pro sports it’s incendiary. And infuriating. Again: Mills was a loyal lieutenant to Jackson, too. Either he was an unindicted co-conspirator for all of Jackson’s basketball misdemeanors, or his opinion was of such little consequence that he was a nonfactor.

Neither should exactly be the kind of thing you place high on your résumé. Unless you’re the Knicks, and you want to frighten off anyone of any consequence or an ounce of competence, insisting you’ll do things your way today, tomorrow, forever. Because it’s always worked so well before, stumbling around in perpetual midnight.

If you kiss the owners ass you'll always have a job..

Dolan just wants people to like him bc the majority of the population hates him.

Seems like the Knicks just hire former gms (Gabriel & Warkenstein) but won't give one gm total control.

The Knicks wanted to add Griffin to their list of former gms without the full autonomy of running the team his way.

By the time we hire anyone, we'll likely have traded melo and also have become capped out for the next few years, with a mixture of young players we won't trade, and big contracts that are untradeable. What is there for the new GM to do other than draft wisely?

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

No, but there is only one number guy in the room.

Dolan "I am not the number guy."
Phil "I am not the number guy."

I mean, I could have said "You think if Dolan wanted to give THjr that contract, Mills could have stopped him?!"

At the end, we have to understand Mills has a dream job. He is just siting here collecting checks, doing some heavy lifting, or scouting Willy or etc etc etc. As a GM he is pretty amazing. Everything happened would not be his responsibility until the result turned out was good. He was not the basketball guy until he was responsible for Willy. He was the number guy until someone had to write down the details of contracts for Noah.

So, who was helping him now with this THjr contracts? Rambis? He is the number guy, it is his job. It was just like Phil was the basketball guy, he should have picked those guys who could work together.

There is no excuse for BOTH.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

This may not come as good news to many, but Phil Jackson was grooming Mills to take over.
Plan was always Phil retires and then Mills takes over. With Phil's plans in place.

So far this is exactly what is happening.
We have drafted the players Phil wanted.
We have the coach Phil wanted.
We are trading Melo like Phil wanted.
We are going to build around the young star Phil drafted and believed in
Gaines, Phil's top advisor for talent, now works closely with Mills. They were seen together in the summer league.

Anyone new that wants to come in will have to work with those parameters right now.
Best to let these guys finish out the year and see where the team is 6 months from now.

No drastic changes needed as I feel the plan is/was the right one.
We were not on the wrong path with Phil/Mills.
The only problems were that Phil constantly created drama and there was an obsession with the Triangle. Both those things are gone.

Let Mills, Hornachek, Gaines etc. all do their jobs. Lets see where Willy, KP, Ntilikina, Dotson, Hardaway, Baker are at a year from now. Then we can talk about a FO overhaul. If we see good things from the young core talent that was brought in by this FO over the last 2-3 years, then we should keep status quo. If this coming year, it becomes evident that we drafted and brought in the wrong young talent, then we should make a complete overhaul in the front office.

mlby1215 wrote:No, but there is only one number guy in the room.

Dolan "I am not the number guy."
Phil "I am not the number guy."

I mean, I could have said "You think if Dolan wanted to give THjr that contract, Mills could have stopped him?!"

At the end, we have to understand Mills has a dream job. He is just siting here collecting checks, doing some heavy lifting, or scouting Willy or etc etc etc. As a GM he is pretty amazing. Everything happened would not be his responsibility until the result turned out was good. He was not the basketball guy until he was responsible for Willy. He was the number guy until someone had to write down the details of contracts for Noah.

So, who was helping him now with this THjr contracts? Rambis? He is the number guy, it is his job. It was just like Phil was the basketball guy, he should have picked those guys who could work together.

There is no excuse for BOTH.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

Right but officially the president makes the decisions and the owner signs off on them. As GM, Mills job is just to assist the president. The default assumption would be the president was making the deals unless proven otherwise.

My hope is that I outlive James Dolan because that appears to be the only way I ever see a winner at the garden, either that or when the Warriors come to town.

If Phil has tried to teach some basketball knowledge to Mills, then probably he has not done very well. Clearly Mills has totally different vision about how basketball should be played. Phil didn't want THjr, but he does. I am not saying Mills' vision is wrong. I am saying he is not extension of Phil. They believe in different type of players. If everything is on the same path, what is the reason Phil got fired now? like 3 days before FA signing? There must be something behind the scene, and I really don't think we are still on the same path.

Phil liked high character role players. He liked older vets. He liked players who could play within a system. I don't think Mills like the same guys. Mills probably wants to look like GSW. Going fast, going young, and going 3pt a lot.

At the end, if THjr turns out to be a superstar, then all credits is to Mills. Meanwhile, if it is backfired, it is all his fault. Mills is Mills, he is not following Phil.

nyknickzingis wrote:This may not come as good news to many, but Phil Jackson was grooming Mills to take over.
Plan was always Phil retires and then Mills takes over. With Phil's plans in place.

So far this is exactly what is happening.
We have drafted the players Phil wanted.
We have the coach Phil wanted.
We are trading Melo like Phil wanted.
We are going to build around the young star Phil drafted and believed in
Gaines, Phil's top advisor for talent, now works closely with Mills. They were seen together in the summer league.

Anyone new that wants to come in will have to work with those parameters right now.
Best to let these guys finish out the year and see where the team is 6 months from now.

No drastic changes needed as I feel the plan is/was the right one.
We were not on the wrong path with Phil/Mills.
The only problems were that Phil constantly created drama and there was an obsession with the Triangle. Both those things are gone.

Let Mills, Hornachek, Gaines etc. all do their jobs. Lets see where Willy, KP, Ntilikina, Dotson, Hardaway, Baker are at a year from now. Then we can talk about a FO overhaul. If we see good things from the young core talent that was brought in by this FO over the last 2-3 years, then we should keep status quo. If this coming year, it becomes evident that we drafted and brought in the wrong young talent, then we should make a complete overhaul in the front office.

No argument with that. Phil was the boss. He had the final say. He took the full responsibility. He should have said no to that 72mil contract, but at the same time, Mills should have provided him a better one to sign on.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No, but there is only one number guy in the room.

Dolan "I am not the number guy."
Phil "I am not the number guy."

I mean, I could have said "You think if Dolan wanted to give THjr that contract, Mills could have stopped him?!"

At the end, we have to understand Mills has a dream job. He is just siting here collecting checks, doing some heavy lifting, or scouting Willy or etc etc etc. As a GM he is pretty amazing. Everything happened would not be his responsibility until the result turned out was good. He was not the basketball guy until he was responsible for Willy. He was the number guy until someone had to write down the details of contracts for Noah.

So, who was helping him now with this THjr contracts? Rambis? He is the number guy, it is his job. It was just like Phil was the basketball guy, he should have picked those guys who could work together.

There is no excuse for BOTH.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

Right but officially the president makes the decisions and the owner signs off on them. As GM, Mills job is just to assist the president. The default assumption would be the president was making the deals unless proven otherwise.

I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

mlby1215 wrote:No argument with that. Phil was the boss. He had the final say. He took the full responsibility. He should have said no to that 72mil contract, but at the same time, Mills should have provided him a better one to sign on.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:No, but there is only one number guy in the room.

Dolan "I am not the number guy."
Phil "I am not the number guy."

I mean, I could have said "You think if Dolan wanted to give THjr that contract, Mills could have stopped him?!"

At the end, we have to understand Mills has a dream job. He is just siting here collecting checks, doing some heavy lifting, or scouting Willy or etc etc etc. As a GM he is pretty amazing. Everything happened would not be his responsibility until the result turned out was good. He was not the basketball guy until he was responsible for Willy. He was the number guy until someone had to write down the details of contracts for Noah.

So, who was helping him now with this THjr contracts? Rambis? He is the number guy, it is his job. It was just like Phil was the basketball guy, he should have picked those guys who could work together.

There is no excuse for BOTH.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:At the very least he should have negotiated better contracts with agents. If Noah is Phil's sin but Phil is not the number guy, I have to put it on Mills. How could he do such things so bad? Like THjr's contract, Noah's was massively overpaid. Could he have done better because 1.The guy got injured recently 2.He was very friendly to Phil 3.He actually came from New York and was a Knick fan.

I mean, Noah is a Noah but could Mills make a cheaper mistake instead? Like 52mil /4 year? or 36mil /2 year? I really didn't think he has done a good job. Phil chose the wrong guy, then Mills signed him in a wrong contract.

It was like,
Phil "Are you sure it is 72mil? It looks a little bit expensive."
Mills "Yes, sure. His agent told me there is a lot of teams which are bidding against us."
Phil "Fine. You tried your best?"
Mills "Sure. I am well respected among agents, and I knows numbers. I gratuated from Princeton. "

Finally, I start to understand why he is well respected among agents too....They just cannot find a better guy to negotiate for their clients.

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:What has Mills EVER done in his career to warrant having him make ALL basketball decisions??? He is a money man. So you want to let him muck up this sheet show even more??? Set this franchise back another 5 yrs??? WE NEED A BASKETBALL PERSON MAKING BASKETBALL DECISIONS. How stupid can we be??

Mills has an extensive career before the Knicks too. I don't really judge him by the Knicks record since I doubt he ever had power to overrule the decisions of Phil, Isiah, Layden etc. He's had a career as a pro player, businessman, and NBA executive. From what I read, he takes an analytics approach and wants to rebuild long-term. I'm happy to give him his first chance to build an NBA team.

TH JR is the only one he signed. He wasn't the one in charge during those other signings. You think if Phil and Dolan wanted to give Noah that contract, Mills could have stopped them?!

Right but officially the president makes the decisions and the owner signs off on them. As GM, Mills job is just to assist the president. The default assumption would be the president was making the deals unless proven otherwise.

The GM provides the contracts? What does that mean? I don't think GMs are as powerful as you're saying.

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

Another? This is his first.

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I'm not opposed to Mills running the show because i like his plan of investing in young talent and i know he has a good relationship around the league. He just needs to have basketball people, like Gaines, and others around him. He needs to hire a GM from outside the org who has the same outlook on building this team, but can bring real basketball knowledge.

Are you thinking Mills doesn't have real knowledge? He played professionally and worked for the league before the Knicks.

Lets not get carried away here. Mills played professionally in Ecuador for a year, which means little. 100 percent sure (from watching that league in the past) that Ive played against better competition on the courts of NYC.

Mills work for the league was strictly pencil pushing, nothing on the actual basketball side. Its like saying JR Smith is qualified to be the CFO of the Knicks, because he's a part of the NBA. Different skill sets. Talent evaluation, contract negotiations, providing a positive working environment, good reputation with his peers as an exec on the player side, Mills has shown none of that. 18 years later some fans still believe he deserves another chance. Honestly cant fathom it.

Another? This is his first.

I know its hard to keep up with all the moves at times, but no this is not Mills first time. He was named the GM after Walsh left. His two signature moves were signing JR Smith's talentless brother to an NBA contract as a negotiating ploy to get him to re-up.

His other brilliant move was not sitting Shumpert after agreeing to trade him to the Suns, which is GM 101. Shump got hurt, the deal was off.

Hard for me to even hear the expression "first chance" in reference to Mills and the Knicks. Since 1999 Bonn.