Knicks · Kyrie this way or the highway....... (page 3)

arkrud wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:Why do we want Kyrie, he's a scoring point guard that doesn't make others better. We don't need players like that, we can't win with players like that. No deal!!!

The Celtics do.

Kyrie is no Westbrook, no Harden, and not even CP3.
He is a very good player but he not worth the farm.
So melo, one 1st 8-protected and one second is his price tag.
Anything more is a bad deal.
Melo value is almost 30 mils of cap space 2 years down the road.
So if Kyrie will bolt in 2 years (very likely) we will get the cap space back.
So it is fair deal.

What about Lee, KO, Frank and a 1st? Is that the farm?

Frank and 1st are 2 first....
This is too much.
It does not matter what Frank will became. He may not be a star.
But Kyrie is also not a generational talent and not even a franchise type player.
His skill-set is good but not too diversified to be that player.
I cannot see any reason to overpay just out of excitement to get good player.
We do not have many for along time so the longing by fans in understandable.
But organization have to be smarter that this and look at things in perspective and strategically.
This is actually a good test for Mills/Perry early on.

Did you mean Frank, 1st and a 2nd?

A maybe, a possible and a probably not for a 25 year old All Star? Yeah ill take that chance.

Only pitfall would be having only 2 years left. If you can somehow extend him, its a good move. IMO

HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:Why do we want Kyrie, he's a scoring point guard that doesn't make others better. We don't need players like that, we can't win with players like that. No deal!!!

The Celtics do.

Kyrie is no Westbrook, no Harden, and not even CP3.
He is a very good player but he not worth the farm.
So melo, one 1st 8-protected and one second is his price tag.
Anything more is a bad deal.
Melo value is almost 30 mils of cap space 2 years down the road.
So if Kyrie will bolt in 2 years (very likely) we will get the cap space back.
So it is fair deal.

What about Lee, KO, Frank and a 1st? Is that the farm?

Frank and 1st are 2 first....
This is too much.
It does not matter what Frank will became. He may not be a star.
But Kyrie is also not a generational talent and not even a franchise type player.
His skill-set is good but not too diversified to be that player.
I cannot see any reason to overpay just out of excitement to get good player.
We do not have many for along time so the longing by fans in understandable.
But organization have to be smarter that this and look at things in perspective and strategically.
This is actually a good test for Mills/Perry early on.

Did you mean Frank, 1st and a 2nd?

A maybe, a possible and a probably not for a 25 year old All Star? Yeah ill take that chance.

Only pitfall would be having only 2 years left. If you can somehow extend him, its a good move. IMO

You still offering 2 1st (Frank is first isn't it?) and second.
It is too much for 2 mediocre years and 30 mils of cap space.
When you do business you cannot hope - you need to expect worst case scenario.
Knicks always expected the best case scenario and get burned 20 years in a row.
It's time to stop the madness.

Vmart wrote:...... adding Irving it's still not a winning formula.

Adding VALUE is a winning formula.

Who says the Knicks have to keep him? Why are so many teams going after Irving right now? Because of the circumstances and timing, they are trying to see if they can lowball the Cavs into a bad deal. Then either keep Irving or TRADE HIM AGAIN LATER, when the MARKET FOR HIM RE-STABILIZES.

If you could, in theory, get Irving for 40 cents on the dollar, you do it, then see if you can trade him later for 90 cent on the dollar. And that's it.

Irving at below market value IS A GOOD DEAL. It's a good deal because it amasses VALUE. Which can held, or TRADED AGAIN LATER

Irving at or above his market value IS A BAD DEAL. It's a bad deal because it does not amass value. It changes the cost structure if you keep him or even trade him again later.

Who says he needs to stay a Knick? Buy low/Sell high. I'm not saying the Knicks will have this chance, because any deal as such would get turned down by the Cavs, but for the sake of raw discussion, then Yes, there are plenty of above board market scenarios where the Knicks can trade for Irving and still come out winners.

The 76ers are where they are because Sam Hinkie pumped and dumped.

Daryl Morey had the asset base and cap to get Chris Paul for virtue of spending the last decade pumping and dumping.

I really CANNOT understand the methodology in place where it's a dogmatic viewpoint that in any instance where Irving becomes a Knick, that HE HAS TO STAY A KNICK.

If the argument in place is that Ntilikina could provide a BETTER FIT. I could see that argument in play. I can see the rationale behind it. However who says the END GAME for better fit needs to be answered immediately? If you can trade for Irving BELOW HIS MARKET VALUE, then wait for his market to restabilize, then you can consider trading him again FOR SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES A BETTER ROSTER FIT.

This is why hunting VALUE trumps all else. When you HUNT VALUE, you OPEN UP ALL YOUR OPTIONS. You CREATE NEW OPTIONS. You create MULTIPLE OPTIONS.

Yankees trade pretty much nothing for Aroldis Chapman. Tony Renda, Jake Cave, and some scraps. Then they use him for a while. Then TRADE HIM for Gleyber Torres, one of the best SS prospects in baseball. They also get Billy McKinney. Then they RESIGN HIM in free agency.

The end game is Torres, McKinney AND Chapman. If you just look at Chapman traded for some prospect, of course that skews things. I'm not saying the Knick can achieve a double heist like this all the time, I am saying the road to the end game can be a long long long road. It doesn't have to be A-B, it can be A to Z to R to B.

TripleThreat wrote:

Vmart wrote:...... adding Irving it's still not a winning formula.

Adding VALUE is a winning formula.

Who says the Knicks have to keep him? Why are so many teams going after Irving right now? Because of the circumstances and timing, they are trying to see if they can lowball the Cavs into a bad deal. Then either keep Irving or TRADE HIM AGAIN LATER, when the MARKET FOR HIM RE-STABILIZES.

If you could, in theory, get Irving for 40 cents on the dollar, you do it, then see if you can trade him later for 90 cent on the dollar. And that's it.

Irving at below market value IS A GOOD DEAL. It's a good deal because it amasses VALUE. Which can held, or TRADED AGAIN LATER

Irving at or above his market value IS A BAD DEAL. It's a bad deal because it does not amass value. It changes the cost structure if you keep him or even trade him again later.

Who says he needs to stay a Knick? Buy low/Sell high. I'm not saying the Knicks will have this chance, because any deal as such would get turned down by the Cavs, but for the sake of raw discussion, then Yes, there are plenty of above board market scenarios where the Knicks can trade for Irving and still come out winners.

The 76ers are where they are because Sam Hinkie pumped and dumped.

Daryl Morey had the asset base and cap to get Chris Paul for virtue of spending the last decade pumping and dumping.

I really CANNOT understand the methodology in place where it's a dogmatic viewpoint that in any instance where Irving becomes a Knick, that HE HAS TO STAY A KNICK.

If the argument in place is that Ntilikina could provide a BETTER FIT. I could see that argument in play. I can see the rationale behind it. However who says the END GAME for better fit needs to be answered immediately? If you can trade for Irving BELOW HIS MARKET VALUE, then wait for his market to restabilize, then you can consider trading him again FOR SOMETHING THAT PROVIDES A BETTER ROSTER FIT.

This is why hunting VALUE trumps all else. When you HUNT VALUE, you OPEN UP ALL YOUR OPTIONS. You CREATE NEW OPTIONS. You create MULTIPLE OPTIONS.

Yankees trade pretty much nothing for Aroldis Chapman. Tony Renda, Jake Cave, and some scraps. Then they use him for a while. Then TRADE HIM for Gleyber Torres, one of the best SS prospects in baseball. They also get Billy McKinney. Then they RESIGN HIM in free agency.

The end game is Torres, McKinney AND Chapman. If you just look at Chapman traded for some prospect, of course that skews things. I'm not saying the Knick can achieve a double heist like this all the time, I am saying the road to the end game can be a long long long road. It doesn't have to be A-B, it can be A to Z to R to B.

Yep. This is the name of the game. No argument against the premise.
The argument can only be about what this value is for Kyire.
And we will soon find out as market will set it straight.
Unfortunately we are out of this as direct deal as Melo is not going go to Cavs.
Some kind of 3-way with Rockets and Cavs? Anderson to Cavs or some other package?
We can get Kyrie for good value in this case but probability of this is remote.
Cavs will get much better package elsewhere.

Melo and Either (not both): Frank or a protected 1st round pick.
Thats the core.

what I don't know is the core conviction of the knicks for Frank's upside.
Also, What is KP going to do in the next two years? At the very least he is an Allstar with MVP upside.
Yeah, he is. That Unicorn thing can be for real.

Thing is how to build with him. I don't like building "around" one player. So if the knicks must, and I hope they don't, that they don't over pay for Kyrie.
To have drafted a just 19 year old kid and we trade him before he even steps on the court?

How can someone be that stupid and ignorant in this day and age is beyond what I can understand.
What really irks me is that a lot of kids look up to him, while he publicly spews his nonsense, making anyone who actually listens to him just a lil dumber....

nyvector16 wrote:Kyrie is a great player, but his flat Earth ideas give me a lot of apprehension to the idea of giving up anything besides Melo for him.

How can someone be that stupid and ignorant in this day and age is beyond what I can understand.
What really irks me is that a lot of kids look up to him, while he publicly spews his nonsense, making anyone who actually listens to him just a lil dumber....

Hes also a big time partier. I would take Kyrie--but at a cost similar to what POhoenix offered Melo restricted pick and Oquinn

BRIGGS wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:Kyrie is a great player, but his flat Earth ideas give me a lot of apprehension to the idea of giving up anything besides Melo for him.

How can someone be that stupid and ignorant in this day and age is beyond what I can understand.
What really irks me is that a lot of kids look up to him, while he publicly spews his nonsense, making anyone who actually listens to him just a lil dumber....

Hes also a big time partier. I would take Kyrie--but at a cost similar to what POhoenix offered Melo restricted pick and Oquinn

I believe that kind of deal is what the Knicks are offering. I don't believe the Knicks are offering Nitty and a Pick. That just doesn't fit with what they're trying to do IMO. The Knicks are not under any serious pressure to give up an asset like Nitty. They can stand pat and be just fine. The Knicks strength this time is the commitment to just walk away if they can't get the deal they want.

Some of you guys on this board would be okay with buying out Melo and getting nothing in return and at the same time are against bringing in one of the elite guards in the NBA for him? To me, it comes down to whether or not we want to part with our 1st round pick or Frank for Kyrie? To me its a no brainer...You bring in the known, young commodity.

The current NBA is guard, perimeter oriented...If you do not have a dominate guard, you do not have a chance. With Kyrie on this team, it gives the front office a clearer vision for how the team should be built.

nixluva wrote: The Knicks are not under any serious pressure to give up an asset like Nitty. They can stand pat and be just fine. The Knicks strength this time is the commitment to just walk away if they can't get the deal they want.

Luck happens when hard work meets opportunity

The Rockets, where Melo wants to go, have James Harden, precisely because they worked hard to amass value and assets, and when another team had a complicated situation, they were ready to strike.

Knicks are going to be unable to get Irving, not just because of the Melo NTC, but because many of the previous bad decision stacked up where they were not ready to strike when an opportunity arose.

The Knicks are in a talent deficit enough ( relative to all other NBA teams) where they have to go out and create their own luck here.

Ntilikina is an interesting prospect, but if he' the lynchpin on why you'd walk past an All Star and Olympian in his prime, that's just not focusing on value here.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

HofstraBBall wrote:Bump.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

Nalod wrote:Reiterate:

Melo and Either (not both): Frank or a protected 1st round pick.
Thats the core.

what I don't know is the core conviction of the knicks for Frank's upside.
Also, What is KP going to do in the next two years? At the very least he is an Allstar with MVP upside.
Yeah, he is. That Unicorn thing can be for real.

Thing is how to build with him. I don't like building "around" one player. So if the knicks must, and I hope they don't, that they don't over pay for Kyrie.
To have drafted a just 19 year old kid and we trade him before he even steps on the court?

Nalod, like many knick faithful saw the rise of the unicorn. The potential has been there for all of us to see. It’s knick history that clouded the enthusiasm for many fans. Phil treated his belligerence as if he was a coach. Instead Knicks gave KP the keys! The physical part is unknown still but it looks good!
Kyrie’s defense has been surprising!!!

CrushAlot wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Bump.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

Agree. Guy is an mvp candidate. Also, the Cavs do not look good. It is early and they should be there in the spring but they miss Kyrie.

He has looked good. He is answering the questions for the most part. Boston was in the best position to do it.

HofstraBBall wrote:Bump.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

Hopefully he'll be a Knick in less than two years.

HofstraBBall wrote:Bump.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

If we traded for him the Knicks would be the best team in the east right now with the way they are playing. We're missing everything that Kyrie brings

EnySpree wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Bump.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

If we traded for him the Knicks would be the best team in the east right now with the way they are playing. We're missing everything that Kyrie brings

What would have been the package that landed him though?

newyorknewyork wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Bump.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

If we traded for him the Knicks would be the best team in the east right now with the way they are playing. We're missing everything that Kyrie brings

What would have been the package that landed him though?

The way Knicks are playing now has a lot to do with Kanter. A Melo + Frank trade to Cle would have negated that, and we would have ended up with another player who would be taking more shots than he made passes and KP would still be standing outside the 3 pt line watching. its not like we would have jyst added him to what we are doing now, it would be a completely different team. No Jack, Kanter, Frank, Beas or Doug. But yeah some people can't stop wanting starfukk.

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Bump.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

If we traded for him the Knicks would be the best team in the east right now with the way they are playing. We're missing everything that Kyrie brings

What would have been the package that landed him though?

The way Knicks are playing now has a lot to do with Kanter. A Melo + Frank trade to Cle would have negated that, and we would have ended up with another player who would be taking more shots than he made passes and KP would still be standing outside the 3 pt line watching. its not like we would have jyst added him to what we are doing now, it would be a completely different team. No Jack, Kanter, Frank, Beas or Doug. But yeah some people can't stop wanting starfukk.

Even if we offered Melo and Frank. Would Cavs have preferred that over Thomas, Crowder, Zizic and Nets #1? Boston also was equipped with more assets at their exposure to up the price if a bidding war did take place.

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

EnySpree wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Bump.

So far, Kyrie worth every asset given up. Injured tonight though.

If we traded for him the Knicks would be the best team in the east right now with the way they are playing. We're missing everything that Kyrie brings

What would have been the package that landed him though?

The way Knicks are playing now has a lot to do with Kanter. A Melo + Frank trade to Cle would have negated that, and we would have ended up with another player who would be taking more shots than he made passes and KP would still be standing outside the 3 pt line watching. its not like we would have jyst added him to what we are doing now, it would be a completely different team. No Jack, Kanter, Frank, Beas or Doug. But yeah some people can't stop wanting starfukk.