Ira wrote:I listed below the real +/- for the first 10 players drafted this year as of right now. Frank was drafted in the 8th spot and he has the 3rd best +/- of the top 10 players drafted. Plus, I think he has more upside than most, since everyone who's been in contact with him seems to speak highly of his intelligence and work ethic.1 Markelle Fultz PG -3.14
2 Lonzo Ball PG -2.55
3 Jayson Tatum SF 1.62
4 Josh Jackson SF -4.51
5 De'Aaron Fox PG -5.00
6 Jonathan Isaac SF/PF -1.39
7 Lauri Markkanen PF 0.93
8 Frank Ntilikina PG -.25
9 Dennis Smith Jr PG -2.94
10 Zach Collins C/PF -1.56
Lonzo has really looked bad. Fultz hasn't really played. Tatum has been amazing. Fox has looked great. DSJ has looked good. Frank has been coming along quicker than expected by most. I'm not really sold completely on rpm. Especially since the formula isn't public. I think evaluating rookies using it is problematic, since we should be looking at what skills they have and what they could develop to.
Ira wrote:I listed below the real +/- for the first 10 players drafted this year as of right now. Frank was drafted in the 8th spot and he has the 3rd best +/- of the top 10 players drafted. Plus, I think he has more upside than most, since everyone who's been in contact with him seems to speak highly of his intelligence and work ethic.1 Markelle Fultz PG -3.14
2 Lonzo Ball PG -2.55
3 Jayson Tatum SF 1.62
4 Josh Jackson SF -4.51
5 De'Aaron Fox PG -5.00
6 Jonathan Isaac SF/PF -1.39
7 Lauri Markkanen PF 0.93
8 Frank Ntilikina PG -.25
9 Dennis Smith Jr PG -2.94
10 Zach Collins C/PF -1.56
Again, yes it is a great accomplishment to be close to the top in any statistical rating. However, I keep making the same point, that advanced stats, specially +/-, are more of a reflection of the players TEAM,the PAIRINGS he is on the floor with and the OPPONENTS on the floor. while in the game. Meaning it is less about who the better individual player is but more about other TEAM factors. Especially in such small sample sizes. It has been a point of many since the advanced metrics have been established. In other words, you can have a bad defensive player's numbers look good on the defenseive advanced stats if the TEAM they are with have very good defensive players. You can also have an average players numbers look great if paired with better players against weaker opponents. Not saying that Frank is a weak player or that these metrics are useless, just pointing out that unlike some on here, I know that advanced metrics are not always the best way to show who the better player is. Some on here think that a computer search can hide obvious imperfections or strengths. If you really try, you can find an advanced stat to procalim the same player inferior or superior.
Panos wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:ERASER BOY!! How you doing. Shouldn't you be at the hair salon getting the new Lin Do?? If you stopped hitting yourself with an eraser you would have noticed the basic point was that ONE players affect or non affect on a TEAM defense is over stated.
Martin is this really how you want someone to be posting on this site?Embarrassed to be reading this here.
RealGM Knicks would be proud !
Wtf is an eraser boy?
No idea, but this dude has some perverted fascination for Chinese people and Jeremy Lin posters in his closet, so its probably related to that. 
meloshouldgo wrote:Panos wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:ERASER BOY!! How you doing. Shouldn't you be at the hair salon getting the new Lin Do?? If you stopped hitting yourself with an eraser you would have noticed the basic point was that ONE players affect or non affect on a TEAM defense is over stated.
Martin is this really how you want someone to be posting on this site?Embarrassed to be reading this here.
RealGM Knicks would be proud !
Wtf is an eraser boy?
No idea, but this dude has some perverted fascination for Chinese people and Jeremy Lin posters in his closet, so its probably related to that.
Nope.... It has to do with you erasing previous handles once you got called out and owned. Only to go on hate rants getting you kicked off. Im sure some on here can remind you.
Btw. Fans that post about how cool Linsanity was are fine. Guys that never got over Jeremy Lin picking $25M and the poison pill over the Knicks but blame Melo, are whinning babies. Funny you would mention Jeremy Lin posters?
Wait so you have even more in your closet?
HofstraBBall wrote:nyknickzingis wrote:Melo instead of KP and this team is much worse
Not even close really.
Keep arguing same ole crap though.
When was that argued?
KP instead of Melo in 2015, 2016 and this team is much worse.
Not even close really.
Keep aruing same ole crap though.
Getting back to the actual topic i feel frank fits better here than smith. As we can see when he is on the floor we normally do pretty well on both sides of the ball. Imagine how good it will be when his offense starts to blossom. My only issue is that he does hesitate to drive sometimes but that will get better as the year progresses
StarksEwing1 wrote:Getting back to the actual topic i feel frank fits better here than smith. As we can see when he is on the floor we normally do pretty well on both sides of the ball. Imagine how good it will be when his offense starts to blossom. My only issue is that he does hesitate to drive sometimes but that will get better as the year progresses
Guess thats why this will be an ongoing debate. Hard for me to admit that Frank is the better fit as we dont have Smith here also playing minutes. If you look at Toronto's game he had zero impact. It is hard to watch the Knicks losing by 20 and having a guy that brings nothing on offense. But of course that is one game and I agree he has had a positive affect on defense and in the 4th quarters. Also, agree that he is still very young.
Not for anything but Smith had a bad game last night (Not going to say he had a good game becasue of his +/- or that they held a very good offensive team to 79 points) and yet Dallas destroyed the Bucks. Think this debate speaks to a bigger debate with fans. The question of what is more important? Defensive or Offensive players. Fact is the NBA has changed. And it is placing more emphasis of scoring and 3pt shooting. Many old school guys will never agree with the new style of play. I can't remember any of my coaches not instantly benching a player if he settled for a three on a fast break. Now its the norm. To me, Smith represent the new NBA, which is winning chips and Frank represent the Old NBA.
HofstraBBall wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Getting back to the actual topic i feel frank fits better here than smith. As we can see when he is on the floor we normally do pretty well on both sides of the ball. Imagine how good it will be when his offense starts to blossom. My only issue is that he does hesitate to drive sometimes but that will get better as the year progresses
Guess thats why this will be an ongoing debate. Hard for me to admit that Frank is the better fit as we dont have Smith here also playing minutes. If you look at Toronto's game he had zero impact. It is hard to watch the Knicks losing by 20 and having a guy that brings nothing on offense. But of course that is one game and I agree he has had a positive affect on defense and in the 4th quarters. Also, agree that he is still very young.
Not for anything but Smith had a bad game last night (Not going to say he had a good game becasue of his +/- or that they held a very good offensive team to 79 points) and yet Dallas destroyed the Bucks. Think this debate speaks to a bigger debate with fans. The question of what is more important? Defensive or Offensive players. Fact is the NBA has changed. And it is placing more emphasis of scoring and 3pt shooting. Many old school guys will never agree with the new style of play. I can't remember any of my coaches not instantly benching a player if he settled for a three on a fast break. Now its the norm. To me, Smith represent the new NBA, which is winning chips and Frank represent the Old NBA.
you still need defense to win. Also smith has has a good start but him and the Mavs have a long way to before they can even discuss him "winning chips". Plus Franks offense is gonna blossom over the next couple years and we already know he is excellent defensively and a great passer so i think the knicks are a lot closer with him. Granted we still need to add more pieces
HofstraBBall wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Getting back to the actual topic i feel frank fits better here than smith. As we can see when he is on the floor we normally do pretty well on both sides of the ball. Imagine how good it will be when his offense starts to blossom. My only issue is that he does hesitate to drive sometimes but that will get better as the year progresses
Guess thats why this will be an ongoing debate. Hard for me to admit that Frank is the better fit as we dont have Smith here also playing minutes. If you look at Toronto's game he had zero impact. It is hard to watch the Knicks losing by 20 and having a guy that brings nothing on offense. But of course that is one game and I agree he has had a positive affect on defense and in the 4th quarters. Also, agree that he is still very young.
Not for anything but Smith had a bad game last night (Not going to say he had a good game becasue of his +/- or that they held a very good offensive team to 79 points) and yet Dallas destroyed the Bucks. Think this debate speaks to a bigger debate with fans. The question of what is more important? Defensive or Offensive players. Fact is the NBA has changed. And it is placing more emphasis of scoring and 3pt shooting. Many old school guys will never agree with the new style of play. I can't remember any of my coaches not instantly benching a player if he settled for a three on a fast break. Now its the norm. To me, Smith represent the new NBA, which is winning chips and Frank represent the Old NBA.
Frank is old school but he’s ELITE at what he does well already with PLENTY of time to improve his scoring. He’s Elite for a rookie in terms of his impact on his team. There’s no question about that. The team scores more and gives up fewer points when he plays. This includes 4th quarters!
He’s got a great chance to improve since his shot isn’t broken. It’s quite smooth. The kid needs time and development on his offensive skills. I doubt he’s ever going to be at the level of DSJ in terms of his offensive ability. That’s a rare talent and usually it is already evident in a young player. DSJ is an offensive star type and Frank is likely to end up being a more balanced 2Way players.
nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Getting back to the actual topic i feel frank fits better here than smith. As we can see when he is on the floor we normally do pretty well on both sides of the ball. Imagine how good it will be when his offense starts to blossom. My only issue is that he does hesitate to drive sometimes but that will get better as the year progresses
Guess thats why this will be an ongoing debate. Hard for me to admit that Frank is the better fit as we dont have Smith here also playing minutes. If you look at Toronto's game he had zero impact. It is hard to watch the Knicks losing by 20 and having a guy that brings nothing on offense. But of course that is one game and I agree he has had a positive affect on defense and in the 4th quarters. Also, agree that he is still very young.
Not for anything but Smith had a bad game last night (Not going to say he had a good game becasue of his +/- or that they held a very good offensive team to 79 points) and yet Dallas destroyed the Bucks. Think this debate speaks to a bigger debate with fans. The question of what is more important? Defensive or Offensive players. Fact is the NBA has changed. And it is placing more emphasis of scoring and 3pt shooting. Many old school guys will never agree with the new style of play. I can't remember any of my coaches not instantly benching a player if he settled for a three on a fast break. Now its the norm. To me, Smith represent the new NBA, which is winning chips and Frank represent the Old NBA.
Frank is old school but he’s ELITE at what he does well already with PLENTY of time to improve his scoring. He’s Elite for a rookie in terms of his impact on his team. There’s no question about that. The team scores more and gives up fewer points when he plays. This includes 4th quarters!
He’s got a great chance to improve since his shot isn’t broken. It’s quite smooth. The kid needs time and development on his offensive skills. I doubt he’s ever going to be at the level of DSJ in terms of his offensive ability. That’s a rare talent and usually it is already evident in a young player. DSJ is an offensive star type and Frank is likely to end up being a more balanced 2Way players.
defense is the hardest thing to learn as a young player and frank has already become one of the Better defenders out there. I agree his shot is smooth and its just a matter of time before that comes together
If the Knicks needed DRose Jr. they would have taken Smith. Frank making little improvements every game. His offense will come around. He has the makings of a nice shot and he just needs to get more confident finishing at the basket.
Lets put it this way, I think Frank is a significantly more valuable player on defense right now than Smith is on offense.
VDesai wrote:If the Knicks needed DRose Jr. they would have taken Smith. Frank making little improvements every game. His offense will come around. He has the makings of a nice shot and he just needs to get more confident finishing at the basket. Lets put it this way, I think Frank is a significantly more valuable player on defense right now than Smith is on offense.
Agreed and I believe the value is shown in the teams respective records...and Frank's presence in the 4th qtr...
StarksEwing1 wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Getting back to the actual topic i feel frank fits better here than smith. As we can see when he is on the floor we normally do pretty well on both sides of the ball. Imagine how good it will be when his offense starts to blossom. My only issue is that he does hesitate to drive sometimes but that will get better as the year progresses
Guess thats why this will be an ongoing debate. Hard for me to admit that Frank is the better fit as we dont have Smith here also playing minutes. If you look at Toronto's game he had zero impact. It is hard to watch the Knicks losing by 20 and having a guy that brings nothing on offense. But of course that is one game and I agree he has had a positive affect on defense and in the 4th quarters. Also, agree that he is still very young.
Not for anything but Smith had a bad game last night (Not going to say he had a good game becasue of his +/- or that they held a very good offensive team to 79 points) and yet Dallas destroyed the Bucks. Think this debate speaks to a bigger debate with fans. The question of what is more important? Defensive or Offensive players. Fact is the NBA has changed. And it is placing more emphasis of scoring and 3pt shooting. Many old school guys will never agree with the new style of play. I can't remember any of my coaches not instantly benching a player if he settled for a three on a fast break. Now its the norm. To me, Smith represent the new NBA, which is winning chips and Frank represent the Old NBA.
you still need defense to win. Also smith has has a good start but him and the Mavs have a long way to before they can even discuss him "winning chips". Plus Franks offense is gonna blossom over the next couple years and we already know he is excellent defensively and a great passer so i think the knicks are a lot closer with him. Granted we still need to add more pieces
But Frank's defense only helps the TEAM look good. So Hofstra has a tough time quantifying that in the context of comparing these players. If DSjr puts up 28 points on 25 shots and Lebron says he looks good in a game that Dallas loses by 20 than DSjr looks like a star. If Frank play great crunch time defense and is on the floor while the Knicks are grinding out some wins its just advanced +/- stuff that doesnt really focus on the player, rather pairings and TEAM stuff. Maybe he struggles to see Frank's value because he's a triangle player
Hey... Maybe Frank is never an explosive scorer. Maybe he's the big PG that lets us play a small 2 because Frank is so strong defensively. But again.. that is TEAM value and hard to quantify without gaudy stats, just Ws and Ls. Time will tell... but we have seen the things they scouted him and they have translated into quality NBA PG play, which at 19 is fantastic.
If the goal is the shift the culture from me first ball dominant player to guys who defend and share the ball Frank was a great add. Time will tell if that translate to a better NBA team or not. I am here to enjoy the process!
HofstraBBall wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Getting back to the actual topic i feel frank fits better here than smith. As we can see when he is on the floor we normally do pretty well on both sides of the ball. Imagine how good it will be when his offense starts to blossom. My only issue is that he does hesitate to drive sometimes but that will get better as the year progresses
Guess thats why this will be an ongoing debate. Hard for me to admit that Frank is the better fit as we dont have Smith here also playing minutes. If you look at Toronto's game he had zero impact. It is hard to watch the Knicks losing by 20 and having a guy that brings nothing on offense. But of course that is one game and I agree he has had a positive affect on defense and in the 4th quarters. Also, agree that he is still very young.
Not for anything but Smith had a bad game last night (Not going to say he had a good game becasue of his +/- or that they held a very good offensive team to 79 points) and yet Dallas destroyed the Bucks. Think this debate speaks to a bigger debate with fans. The question of what is more important? Defensive or Offensive players. Fact is the NBA has changed. And it is placing more emphasis of scoring and 3pt shooting. Many old school guys will never agree with the new style of play. I can't remember any of my coaches not instantly benching a player if he settled for a three on a fast break. Now its the norm. To me, Smith represent the new NBA, which is winning chips and Frank represent the Old NBA.
That's the trend...until a team wins a championship playing a different style and then guess what happens?
The mentality of chasing trends is a mistake many teams make. I remember back in the mid 70s when the Sixers stockpiled the so-called greatest talent every assembled on one team (Dr. J, McGinnis, Collins, World B. Free, Dawkins, etc.). A bunch of other teams tried to do the same and collected big name talent and did nothing. Then Houston had the twin towers with Sampson and Hakeem and other teams tried their version (including the Knicks with Ewing and Cartwright), didn't work. Then Magic joined the league and teams starting looking for oversized PGs. The point is you can't be a slave to tends. You have to mold teams to suit the talent you have. Just because the "trend" is to jack up threes doesn't mean we have to follow suit, especially if the talent available to us doesn't fit that style. Things tend to be cyclical.
This topic really hits home for me because Frank and myself have very similar games and flaws.
Lock down defense and unselfish offense has always been my game. Depending on who you ask, they will all agree.
Overtime, I started building up confidence in my offensive game. And that's when people recognized me. That's also when someone invited me to come with him to an NBA summer league try out. For a solid 3 years, I was on top of the world. Finally everybody appreciated my offensive game....I was able to carry a team on both ends.
With that said, Frank has the physical and mental tools to be the best 2 way guard in the NBA....especially as a PG.
What people don't understand, is the negative impact a player has on a team, when your the PG (suppose to focus on the team) takes the most shots, scores the most points and handles the ball the most? That's deflates your teammates, and eventually they stop playing hard and simply don't care. When they get the ball, they out of rhythm. They don't run hard on fast brakes, because it's a waste of energy, because the PG will not pass.
If I had to do it over, I would still chose my current game (similar to Frank) over DSJ.....Offense is something you can learn and improve on.....Kidd worst shorter ever. Retired as the best 3 pt shooter.
Offense can grow....
Defense is an approach you either have or don't....
I love that Frank has Clyde as a mentor. The best defensive mentor you could have in the NBA at the PG position. Frank is and will continue to be a more positive impact player to his team than DSJ. In order for this argument to go towards DSJ is if he becomes the next Michael Jordan.....or maybe Allen Iverson....since they are closer in height.
Keep in mind....Euro players are always behind. They follow what we do. For years, a PG suppose to do that little things, like bring the ball up and look for your key post guys or create for others....run pick and roll, and get the bigs involved.
Now it's completely different(good or bad). But this is also why some people say the international game is catching up to us. I think it's the opposite. NBA ball in the US is driven by players and agent and money, that it's no longer about the team, but marketing individual players.
Meanwhile overseas.....They don't have the same pressure to market individual players. So they still play basketball like it was played for years.....Before guards and 3 pt shooting took over. This is a good experiment between ISO dominated basketball and team oriented basketball.
A good solid team (with players that know their role) will beat a team of 5 great ISO players.
So comparing Frank to Smith doesn't work. It only creates long threads like this, and lunch time discussions.
Personally....I like them both. And I think this team needs both.
DSJ and Frank would be a great pair to have on your team. But having DSJ without Frank doesn't sound as good as having Frank without DSJ.
Smith needs unselfish players around him for his team to work.
Frank needs selfish players around him for his team to work.
As of right now.....DRAW
nixluva wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:StarksEwing1 wrote:Getting back to the actual topic i feel frank fits better here than smith. As we can see when he is on the floor we normally do pretty well on both sides of the ball. Imagine how good it will be when his offense starts to blossom. My only issue is that he does hesitate to drive sometimes but that will get better as the year progresses
Guess thats why this will be an ongoing debate. Hard for me to admit that Frank is the better fit as we dont have Smith here also playing minutes. If you look at Toronto's game he had zero impact. It is hard to watch the Knicks losing by 20 and having a guy that brings nothing on offense. But of course that is one game and I agree he has had a positive affect on defense and in the 4th quarters. Also, agree that he is still very young.
Not for anything but Smith had a bad game last night (Not going to say he had a good game becasue of his +/- or that they held a very good offensive team to 79 points) and yet Dallas destroyed the Bucks. Think this debate speaks to a bigger debate with fans. The question of what is more important? Defensive or Offensive players. Fact is the NBA has changed. And it is placing more emphasis of scoring and 3pt shooting. Many old school guys will never agree with the new style of play. I can't remember any of my coaches not instantly benching a player if he settled for a three on a fast break. Now its the norm. To me, Smith represent the new NBA, which is winning chips and Frank represent the Old NBA.
Frank is old school but he’s ELITE at what he does well already with PLENTY of time to improve his scoring. He’s Elite for a rookie in terms of his impact on his team. There’s no question about that. The team scores more and gives up fewer points when he plays. This includes 4th quarters!
He’s got a great chance to improve since his shot isn’t broken. It’s quite smooth. The kid needs time and development on his offensive skills. I doubt he’s ever going to be at the level of DSJ in terms of his offensive ability. That’s a rare talent and usually it is already evident in a young player. DSJ is an offensive star type and Frank is likely to end up being a more balanced 2Way players.
DSJ represents the NEW NBA about as much as Donald Trump represents America. But he isn't completely useless either. I don't think either one is having a lot of impact on their teams statistically. Their VORPs will show they are both basically average NBA players at this time. We just saw what a star on offense did for us for 6 years, I would much rather have Frank. The people who prefer DSJR type of player are the ones who are more interested in volume stats and scoring and they come up with all types of ass backwards reasoning to support that. There is nothing that shows DSJR is having more impact than Frank.
Cool pic of Frank and Donovan Mitchell before the Knicks-Jazz game. They look like two kids just happy to be there, it's refreshing. Let's hope they remain level headed.
