Chandler wrote:nixluva wrote:LivingLegend wrote:Agree with initial poster -- Kanter plays with so much energy/passion/effort/physicality that he is simply requiring a lot of attention -- plus he is doing dirty-work where KP can then use his tremendous size/athleticism to make the highlight type skill plays.Kanter & KP -- are a nice match ===== Willy in no way shape or form would provide such a dynamic contrast to KP.
Willy would still add something good next to KP IMO. It's just a little different. Willy has a little more developing to do, but his raw talent is still pretty darned high. He's a very good rebounder and post player. Sets excellent Picks. Is a very good Roll Man in PnR. Willy looks like he could be a good passer as well. Willy has the beginnings of a perimeter game. He has a High IQ as well.
Kanter is just so darned PHYSICAL and a bit more mature than Willy so he's ready for a starting role. Willy needs to be groomed to provide a similar level of production. He's worth the effort of further development.
Nix why wouldn't you want Willy as a 6th man then, to emphasize his offense
Kanter is down low and freeing space for KP
WIlly would be up high with the pick, and while that works for him or the guard, how does they create synergy with KP?
I have no problem with Willy off the bench. I just think Willy could play effectively next to KP. Basically you could just run more stuff with Willy. You can run Horns Sets with KP and Willy.
You can also run the same sets you do with Kanter. Willy is versatile enough to work well with KP IMO.
LivingLegend wrote:Agree with initial poster -- Kanter plays with so much energy/passion/effort/physicality that he is simply requiring a lot of attention -- plus he is doing dirty-work where KP can then use his tremendous size/athleticism to make the highlight type skill plays.Kanter & KP -- are a nice match ===== Willy in no way shape or form would provide such a dynamic contrast to KP.
I have always felt like Willy will eventually be a great 6th man anyways. With his scoring and passing ability, you can run the 2nd unit offense through him with great results. But Kanter is a better fit alongside KP, no doubt.
fishmike wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:I think a lot of us were apprehensive about the pairing at first because we weren't convinced that KP would take huge strides defensively... which he hasSimilarly, I don't think Kanter has been as poor as advertised defensively... I think he's improved his d, as well as his conditioning. In the past he's been asked to be the go-to-scorer on the second team. He isn't being asked to do that anymore and he probably has more to give on the defensive side
I definitely would not have anticipated this pairing working, but it certainly is, and I would have no problem keeping this together. Some of the best advice I ever got in my life was 'don't question the blessings' and this falls into that bucket
dont put too much into this pairing. Much of KP and Kanter's improved defense is because Lee/THj/Jack/Frank/Lance/McD/etc have done a good job and are playing defense at full speed. I think its all about the wings. Build the perimeter defense and our size can clean up. Cant ask KP/Kanter/KOQ to be the defense. Its gotta start on the wings. When it does and the bigs are supporting it looks great.
Agreed. As Ntilikina develops, he will become a terror defensively and PGs will not be able to penetrate or run the high pick and roll easily. It takes all the pressure off of KP and Kanter. A huge change from watching Rose and Calderon get picked apart and forcing the bigs to make defensively plays every possession.
fishmike wrote:So no consideration to fit, chemistry, team building or complimenting skill sets? Sorry dude but your approach is not sound. These are not values in an excel spreadsheet, they are humans working with other humans.
I am giving consideration to those things, but doing it ACROSS KANTER'S ENTIRE NBA CAREER BEFORE HE WAS A KNICK.
And not just the last plus or minus ten games and a few preseason games.
What's more likely, the pre Knick Kanter is the real Kanter?
Or a guy basically playing for his next contract or potential for his next contract, knowing teams will be cap locked and tax payers, means the market will choke out, esp with some oversaturation for pivots, most of whom have more competitive skill sets than him.
I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but it's been a HANDFUL OF GAMES.
Is it nice the Knicks are playing well after years of suffering? Yes. That's great. I love it as a fan of the game. As a fan of the team.
But it does not mean you buy an engagement ring after one great blowjob.
You keep talking about a human element, here's a human element for you - RECENCY BIAS. Look it up. Consider how much it's swaying you right now.
This is not about my lack of ability to humanize Kanter, it's about looking at the Knicks roster from an objective and dispassionate market based perspective.
The Suns could have talked about the human element when STAT was a free agent. But they weighed it all out, and took the correct market based approach. How did that work out for them? How did that work out for the Knicks.
Chandler wrote:I am convinced of the merits of this pairing. Indeed I have a tough time thinking of a better pairing (e.g., Deandre would bring more defense but horrible FTs, more limited offense...)So what makes them work so well together?
My theory is that Kanter is so intense in the paint (offensive end) that he completely consumes his defender (who would also happen to be the most bruising defender) and half consumes whatever other defender thinking of help defense
This makes it that much easier to move for his midrange game (plus generally have a weaker defender on him)
On the defensive end, Kanter has the ability to limit his focus. KP can be the rim protector, and Kanter can stay a little more focused, limit mistakes
Lastly, I think they both set the tone for the other. KP gets to see Kanter's intensity on the glass and move toward that; Kanter (to a lesser degree) sees KP focusing on both ends of the floor and seems to be taking defense more seriously (i.e., not happy trading baskets)
Its a short list Draymond Green is one
TripleThreat wrote:Chandler wrote:I am convinced of the merits of this pairing.
When I was in the NFL, this is a methodology that I know a lot of the scouts used back then. I don't know what they specifically called it, I called it the "Anomaly Test"
Take either the entire unit or side of the ball or entire team if you have to, and if you want to evaluate one single player, imagine him on a roster where everyone else in said unit is "Replacement Level" i.e. exactly at league average.
Think of Scott Brosius with the Yankees, not his Yankee dynasty years, but just about every other year of his 3B MLB career. He was basically a league average 3B. Imagine a roster full of those types. Serviceable. Useful, but not elite and not creating more answers than questions.
You don't judge Kanter's individual value by measuring him just paired to Zinger. You judge him if he was on the floor with four REPLACEMENT LEVEL players. And this is where the problem begins. You pull Zinger off the roster or he gets injured, and you stick a league average guy in his place and all the warts about Kanter will start to show up.
You should pay a guy based on what he can do given the "Anomaly Test" where he is the outlier against the league average given market conditions. Not what he can do based on some very specific volatile circumstances that are fluid and have no projectible consistency.
Yes, he's playing pretty good now. Happy for him, happy for the Knicks. But it's only been a few games and it doesn't wash away his previous years of NBA production and history and question marks.
You don't buy an engagement ring after one great blowjob do you? (Well maybe some of you guys would, which would actually explain quite a bit....)
The fact that you use this as an analogy explains a hell of alot more about you than anything it would about anyone else. Just sayin. 
Any way, glad to see you're not abandoning your original position on Kanter based on a happy sample size of 10 games.
And I know the senility level of this site runs high at times, but I seem to remember the Unicorn playing like a freak his rookie year when paired with Rolo, who was a real center at both ends of the floor.
You were in the NFL?
I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.) If you're saying it goes beyond the numbers, I agree that occasionally the two look like an outstanding pairing and I'm willing to give it much more time before making any decisions. As of right now, I think KOQ is the better all around player though.
Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)
Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?
GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)
Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?
I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)
Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?
I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?
GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)
Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?
I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?
Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.
Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.) If you're saying it goes beyond the numbers, I agree that occasionally the two look like an outstanding pairing and I'm willing to give it much more time before making any decisions. As of right now, I think KOQ is the better all around player though.
KOQ may be the better player but not the better pairing
When Kanter is in the game the defense has to collapse in, put their brute on him, etc. It gives KP more freedom to operate.
KOQ has a lot of nice attributes but those don't include post ups
Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)
Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?
I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?
Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.
Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks
SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)
Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?
I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?
Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.
Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks
Look, I'm just reporting what has happened statistically. After 10 games (small sample), the team has definitely done better (on both ends) with KOQ than Kanter on the court.
Bonn1997 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)
Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?
I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?
Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.
Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks
Look, I'm just reporting what has happened statistically. After 10 games (small sample), the team has definitely done better (on both ends) with KOQ than Kanter on the court.
Honest question: is there some accepted wisdom of how many games is a statistically significant sample size for a season, and what the confidence levels are?
I ask because in some contexts 5% is significant
TripleThreat wrote:fishmike wrote:So no consideration to fit, chemistry, team building or complimenting skill sets? Sorry dude but your approach is not sound. These are not values in an excel spreadsheet, they are humans working with other humans.
I am giving consideration to those things, but doing it ACROSS KANTER'S ENTIRE NBA CAREER BEFORE HE WAS A KNICK.
And not just the last plus or minus ten games and a few preseason games.
What's more likely, the pre Knick Kanter is the real Kanter?
Or a guy basically playing for his next contract or potential for his next contract, knowing teams will be cap locked and tax payers, means the market will choke out, esp with some oversaturation for pivots, most of whom have more competitive skill sets than him.
I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but it's been a HANDFUL OF GAMES.
Is it nice the Knicks are playing well after years of suffering? Yes. That's great. I love it as a fan of the game. As a fan of the team.
But it does not mean you buy an engagement ring after one great blowjob.
You keep talking about a human element, here's a human element for you - RECENCY BIAS. Look it up. Consider how much it's swaying you right now.
This is not about my lack of ability to humanize Kanter, it's about looking at the Knicks roster from an objective and dispassionate market based perspective.
The Suns could have talked about the human element when STAT was a free agent. But they weighed it all out, and took the correct market based approach. How did that work out for them? How did that work out for the Knicks.
sometimes what you see is what you get?
How was Billups WHOLE HISTORY before Dumars gave him the full MLE. Kanter is 25 years old. Things and people still change. Environments change. Has Kanter ever played in NY? You are aware he literally has no home and is now playing as close to it as he will ever get?
Has KAnter ever played next to a player like KP before? He's been behind guys like Adams/Gobert. Big defensive guys. He's never been paired with a scorer/rim protector like KP.
You keep bringing up the ring after one blowjob.. seems this analogy has some special value for you? RECENCY BIAS... does that negate the current data?
Am I saying Kanter must be resigned? I think most are just saying its got to be strongly considered as the early results are very promising. You are saying that KAnter has no value in the league and anything we are seeing has little to no relevance and you are really focused on dudes who give rings after blowjobs.
Chandler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.
Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.
Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season
Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)
Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?
I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?
Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.
Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks
Look, I'm just reporting what has happened statistically. After 10 games (small sample), the team has definitely done better (on both ends) with KOQ than Kanter on the court.
Honest question: is there some accepted wisdom of how many games is a statistically significant sample size for a season, and what the confidence levels are?
I ask because in some contexts 5% is significant
Not really but you probably need far more games than people realize. I wouldn't even consider one full season to be a large sample. I say that because of how much player performance fluctuates from year to year.
Absolutely no way you move Kanter right now. Completely agree on him being a good fit next to KP. If anything, I'd like to see the ball go through Kanter more with Jack/Frank looking to set him up to score down low more. He's an excellent offensive weapon that's being a bit underutilized right now. I think we can get a lot more out of Kanter offensively. But all in all, he's playing well and fitting in very well, I agree.
I think we need to stand pat and see if this success is for real and sustainable. I think it very well could be--I was talking about the deep roster in pre-season and how this could be a 40-something win playoff team if things came together right. I still stand by that..If we can move a superfluous piece like Sessions, Kuz and/or Beasley for a pick, stashed asset or some really good no-brainer move somehow, okay, but otherwise I think we need to keep riding the wave right now.. A good part of me would like to see Dougie starting at the 3 with THJ moving to SG and I'd also like to see Willy get some time but Court and Kyle are playing too well right now. I say roll with what Jeff's doing--it's working. Let's roll with the rotation until at least the 30-35 game mark. That's when the wheels fell off the car last year. We should have a much clearer indication by then of what we have exactly.
One guy I always discount is Lance Thomas but he deserves a ton of credit. He a lot better player than I've ever given him credit for and like Kanter, he fits perfectly. This dude absolutely deserves the time he's getting over Beasley and Kuz.. Real good intangibles guy. Nice work!!
