Knicks · We clearly need some kind of an upgrade at PG (page 2)

MEH! The big thing with Frank is mostly a matter of him Focusing on his handles over the summer and gaining more confidence in his offensive game. Giving up the ball early actually isn’t killing the team it’s smart of him to do that. It’s a normal function of the Triangle even tho they aren’t running Triangle. Give it up and get the ball moving and it finds it’s way back to him anyway.

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Identify a need is one thing. “I need more money”, “I need to lose weight”, “ I need a new car”.

Solving the need is not always as easy. Cat Barber is not a solution, its a concept.

Hey, you want to upgrade anywhere you can, any time you can. Right now, what could you do and at what cost? Who would be available? I think the Knicks will stick with Jack and Frank as long as the team keeps playing well. Why would you expect otherwise? Personally I am tickled with our PG play. We're getting some defense there for the first time in years, and there is a mentality to set up others. What we've been hurting for.

I've noticed some fans' obsession that we need a scoring, "penetrating" point guard. Like a Derrick Rose maybe?

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

We need a PG who can break the defense down and create with athletism and explosion!!!

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

It was the number 1 reason I was skeptical about him. I knew he could be a wing defender but I wasn't sure if he had the offensive game to be a PG in the NBA

The Knicks would do better with a PG upgrade. Absolutely true.

The thing is that the team is managing the delicate balance of playing winning basketball while Ntilikina develops.

We won’t see Ntilikina’s best for maybe 5-7 years. But that doesn’t mean he won’t grow and contribute in his somewhat flawed current state.

The things that are missing wit our current Pg tandem are:
1) explosive drives to the basket - as others mentioned, we had Rose last year - it didn’t add up to winning basketball - rose didn’t do a great job of keeping his teammates involved - and seemed to have blind spots on the floor
2) shooting over 40%. This is a notable gap - these guys need to make their shots. 40-45% fg would be a reasonable target. But a fair number of rookie pgs shoot terribly. Last year’s crop was terrible, this year a whole bunch are struggling - led by Ball.

I like the combo we have today though, Jack plays well enough to be a good role model while being bad enough for Frank to take over by the end of the year.

I don’t think Frank will ever be a killer slasher, but I do see him developing the effectiveness of a Billups or even a Gary Payton on offense. He’ll have to become more deceptive with his dribble and develop a little bit of a back to the basket game to take advantage of his size and length.

Eventually, I see the Knicks picking up a backup little speedster as a change of pace guard for exactly what the OP is looking for. Think 6’ DJ Augustin or Speedy Claxton types.

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

Hold your horses. I haven't discounted anything. I ha be objected to the idea that a scoring PG is an "upgrade" over what we have. I have also objected to the idea that we need more offense from the PG position. We habe enough offense on the floor that need to step up and play better. I have no issue with Ntilikina developing his game a learning tho take it to the hole more. But there are very few PGs that are elite defenders. SinceCgris Oaul isn't coming here lout chances of getting a scoringPG that defends at an elite level are almost zero. So given the choice i would choose defense over scoring.

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Doesn't shoot much or penetrate either. Frank looks exactly like the footage we saw, and his stats didn't lie much neither. Wish we could have gotten bledsoe without giving up frank.

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

Hold your horses. I haven't discounted anything. I ha be objected to the idea that a scoring PG is an "upgrade" over what we have. I have also objected to the idea that we need more offense from the PG position. We habe enough offense on the floor that need to step up and play better. I have no issue with Ntilikina developing his game a learning tho take it to the hole more. But there are very few PGs that are elite defenders. SinceCgris Oaul isn't coming here lout chances of getting a scoringPG that defends at an elite level are almost zero. So given the choice i would choose defense over scoring.

Frank shouldn't start until he has that part of his game down, not just about scoring. Dont care how Frank gets to the rim, as long as he does. Doesn't have to be explosive. Steve Nash wasn't, but he still got to the rim one way or another. Its important.

Jack is paying solidly. He can still stick a jumper. I. All honest if we need more of a penetrator that is what Sessions is. Sessions has always been a PG who can get into the lane.

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

Hold your horses. I haven't discounted anything. I ha be objected to the idea that a scoring PG is an "upgrade" over what we have. I have also objected to the idea that we need more offense from the PG position. We habe enough offense on the floor that need to step up and play better. I have no issue with Ntilikina developing his game a learning tho take it to the hole more. But there are very few PGs that are elite defenders. SinceCgris Oaul isn't coming here lout chances of getting a scoringPG that defends at an elite level are almost zero. So given the choice i would choose defense over scoring.

Frank shouldn't start until he has that part of his game down, not just about scoring. Dont care how Frank gets to the rim, as long as he does. Doesn't have to be explosive. Steve Nash wasn't, but he still got to the rim one way or another. Its important.

Fair enough, do you agree Dennis Smith Jr shouldn't start till he starts plaguing plus defense?

I like Barber a lot. He looked really good in the summer league and has seemed like a guy that was going to get his chance in the nba recently. I thought he might have gotten a two way contract or something so I googled him. He was playing in europe and left his team two days ago so he apparently is available. The Knicks might see Burke as the guy for that role though. I wonder if the Clips approach the Knicks about a deal for Sessions with Beverly out.

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scolring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

Hold your horses. I haven't discounted anything. I ha be objected to the idea that a scoring PG is an "upgrade" over what we have. I have also objected to the idea that we need more offense from the PG position. We habe enough offense on the floor that need to step up and play better. I have no issue with Ntilikina developing his game a learning tho take it to the hole more. But there are very few PGs that are elite defenders. SinceCgris Oaul isn't coming here lout chances of getting a scoringPG that defends at an elite level are almost zero. So given the choice i would choose defense over scoring.

Frank shouldn't start until he has that part of his game down, not just about scoring. Dont care how Frank gets to the rim, as long as he does. Doesn't have to be explosive. Steve Nash wasn't, but he still got to the rim one way or another. Its important.

Fair enough, do you agree Dennis Smith Jr shouldn't start till he starts plaguing plus defense?

Smith is having an impact scoring and passing, he's further along than Frank and they aren't as deep. Read the Washington Post article on Smith I posted in the DSJ vs. Frank thread. Frank's ability to get to the rim right now is at a high school level, competitively. I believe making Frank work on that aspect of his game first is better than just handing him the starting job. I dont believe Frank has earned it yet.

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

Hold your horses. I haven't discounted anything. I ha be objected to the idea that a scoring PG is an "upgrade" over what we have. I have also objected to the idea that we need more offense from the PG position. We habe enough offense on the floor that need to step up and play better. I have no issue with Ntilikina developing his game a learning tho take it to the hole more. But there are very few PGs that are elite defenders. SinceCgris Oaul isn't coming here lout chances of getting a scoringPG that defends at an elite level are almost zero. So given the choice i would choose defense over scoring.

Frank shouldn't start until he has that part of his game down, not just about scoring. Dont care how Frank gets to the rim, as long as he does. Doesn't have to be explosive. Steve Nash wasn't, but he still got to the rim one way or another. Its important.

Fair enough, do you agree Dennis Smith Jr shouldn't start till he starts plaguing plus defense?

The guy is coached by Rick Carlisle. Carlisle isn't playing Noel. Dallas players earn playing time.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

Hold your horses. I haven't discounted anything. I ha be objected to the idea that a scoring PG is an "upgrade" over what we have. I have also objected to the idea that we need more offense from the PG position. We habe enough offense on the floor that need to step up and play better. I have no issue with Ntilikina developing his game a learning tho take it to the hole more. But there are very few PGs that are elite defenders. SinceCgris Oaul isn't coming here lout chances of getting a scoringPG that defends at an elite level are almost zero. So given the choice i would choose defense over scoring.

Frank shouldn't start until he has that part of his game down, not just about scoring. Dont care how Frank gets to the rim, as long as he does. Doesn't have to be explosive. Steve Nash wasn't, but he still got to the rim one way or another. Its important.

Fair enough, do you agree Dennis Smith Jr shouldn't start till he starts plaguing plus defense?

The guy is coached by Rick Carlisle. Carlisle isn't playing Noel. Dallas players earn playing time.

Both Dennis Smith Jr and Noel have Net negative values in their on court off court differential. Only 5 players in the entire Dallas roster are net negatives, are you sure he is "earning" his time?
The point is players like Frank whose core skill is defense need to earn their starting position by developing offensive skills but you don't seem to apply the same standards to players who can only score but don't play any defense. This is very lopsided IMO

Also, THE MAIN reason Jack and Sessions are on the team is to show the ropes of the league to Frank.

End of story.

Jmpasq wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:This obsession people have with "SCORING" is unreal. We are getting very good play at PG. On our team their role is setting up the offense and its NOT scoring. But somehow that's all people care to look at...scoring, scoring, scoring. Can we please stop salivating over score first PGs that never win anything?

None of this is happening in this thread.

The thread is about getting a PG that can score.

Its not just about scoring frank cant dribble

Rose did both, how'd that work out?

Does it have to be one extreme or the other? A PG who does nothing but drive or a PG who does nothing but pass? You know how many PGs have gone through here who were allergic to the rim? Too many.

You seem to have this view that having a dribble being able to get to the rim, is something out of And1 or the Harlem Globetrotters. Its an essential part of a good PG's game. You're discounting the importance of getting to the line, putting their defenders, amd the team in foul trouble as well.

I will bet you that our PGs are at the bottom of the league in that dept. If Frank is to be the PG of the future for the Knicks, cant leave out an essential ingredient in a point guard's game.

It was the number 1 reason I was skeptical about him. I knew he could be a wing defender but I wasn't sure if he had the offensive game to be a PG in the NBA

Yet when he is in the game the Knicks offense is better, their FG% is better, their PPP is better and their PP100 is better. Is driving the lane the only way you can envision a player being good on offense? Frank is also taller and longer than most players who guard him and we have already seen good passing because of this.

Kid is 19 and the offense has been very good with Frank at the helm, and the stats all back this up. He's playing his role perfectly right now. I am pretty sure we will continue to see growth in all these areas based on age and work ethic.