Knicks · Lee probably on move? (page 2)

TripleThreat wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

1) Opportunity Cost of the cap space implied

2) Current cap conditions of the league as a whole

Trading a first rounder for Lee would mean losing that cost controlled rookie asset. Then absorbing Lee's contract into their cap, when the non Knicks team could simply spend that 12 million AAV for the next two years in a current marketplace that will shift into a BUYERS MARKET. Lots of money is tied up and teams are cap locked, going to be some good value contract bargains this offseason and next, so 12 million stretches a lot farther.

Would any of you trade a late first rounder ( think like a Chandler Hutchinson type) plus whatever depth can be had for 12 million in free agent money for TWO YEARS for Courtney Lee?

If the Knicks made that kind of deal for Lee, people here would be up in arms. They'd demand someone get fired. So, thus, Mirror Test-ed, why should the non Knicks team do it?

The Knicks have tried to trade Lee pretty much from the time they first signed him. And no one wants him at his current AAV, contract length and hit on opportunity cost implied.

He can't create his own shot. At all. He's in his clear decline phase. He does play solid smart team basketball, but he's at a point, where statistically, you have to expect more missed games/injuries.

Here's the other issue -

NO NON WARRIORS CONTENDER LEVEL TEAM IS GOING INTO THE LUXURY TAX ZONE/OR FURTHER INTO IT/OR FURTHER INTO THE REPEATER TAX ZONE FOR COURTNEY LEE.

The Warriors are deep in the tax zone. Every "contender" level team under them is either in the tax zone or repeater zone or going to enter it.

Would you want the Knicks to go into the repeater tax even further for Courtney Lee?

I don't care how "cash rich" team is in real life, you do have to show some fiscal restraint at some point. If you were a GM of a NBA team, do you think you'd keep your job for long if you had to explain to your owner why you went depth into the luxury tax for Courtney Lee?

The marketplace is going to collapse. Phil Jackson totally f**ked this all up for the Knicks.

Whoa, you had me until you said he's in "clear decline phase." Lee had probably the best and most productive season of his career. He's 32 so he's certainly not ancient. He only has two years left on his deal. He would absolutely be an asset to a contending team (i.e. Houston replacing Ariza).

Here's a better question, if a team thinks it has a legit shot at a title and Lee could fill an important void on the roster, do you really think a team would pass on him just to save $10M (just a number I pulled out of thin air)? Besides, we would probably need to take on another contract in any transaction (probably fewer years) so I fail to see the financial implications you're claiming.

Welpee wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

1) Opportunity Cost of the cap space implied

2) Current cap conditions of the league as a whole

Trading a first rounder for Lee would mean losing that cost controlled rookie asset. Then absorbing Lee's contract into their cap, when the non Knicks team could simply spend that 12 million AAV for the next two years in a current marketplace that will shift into a BUYERS MARKET. Lots of money is tied up and teams are cap locked, going to be some good value contract bargains this offseason and next, so 12 million stretches a lot farther.

Would any of you trade a late first rounder ( think like a Chandler Hutchinson type) plus whatever depth can be had for 12 million in free agent money for TWO YEARS for Courtney Lee?

If the Knicks made that kind of deal for Lee, people here would be up in arms. They'd demand someone get fired. So, thus, Mirror Test-ed, why should the non Knicks team do it?

The Knicks have tried to trade Lee pretty much from the time they first signed him. And no one wants him at his current AAV, contract length and hit on opportunity cost implied.

He can't create his own shot. At all. He's in his clear decline phase. He does play solid smart team basketball, but he's at a point, where statistically, you have to expect more missed games/injuries.

Here's the other issue -

NO NON WARRIORS CONTENDER LEVEL TEAM IS GOING INTO THE LUXURY TAX ZONE/OR FURTHER INTO IT/OR FURTHER INTO THE REPEATER TAX ZONE FOR COURTNEY LEE.

The Warriors are deep in the tax zone. Every "contender" level team under them is either in the tax zone or repeater zone or going to enter it.

Would you want the Knicks to go into the repeater tax even further for Courtney Lee?

I don't care how "cash rich" team is in real life, you do have to show some fiscal restraint at some point. If you were a GM of a NBA team, do you think you'd keep your job for long if you had to explain to your owner why you went depth into the luxury tax for Courtney Lee?

The marketplace is going to collapse. Phil Jackson totally f**ked this all up for the Knicks.

Whoa, you had me until you said he's in "clear decline phase." Lee had probably the best and most productive season of his career. He's 32 so he's certainly not ancient. He only has two years left on his deal. He would absolutely be an asset to a contending team (i.e. Houston replacing Ariza).

Here's a better question, if a team thinks it has a legit shot at a title and Lee could fill an important void on the roster, do you really think a team would pass on him just to save $10M (just a number I pulled out of thin air)? Besides, we would probably need to take on another contract in any transaction (probably fewer years) so I fail to see the financial implications you're claiming.

For a team with a small window of opportunity...he is a great fit. Solid player...reasonable contract...in great physical shape.

As is always...numbers have to work out, but he could be a missing piece for some teams. I also know that if the Knicks were in contention right now, we would not be talking about trading him, because he is the kind of player a contending team can always find a place for- as a starter or off the bench.

knickstorrents wrote:All I want is a second rounder and a salary dump for him. Anything else is not realistic. He's a nice player but he's expendable for our team since we're focusing on developing our rookies. This is year 1 of the Knicks Process, get ready for the long haul.

I think that deal is Faried and a #2 for Lee. Knicks just waive Faried. Nuggets get a player that helps them much more than Faried who they have been trying to dump for awhile. Knicks lose Lee on their cap next year. Helps both teams.

fishmike wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:All I want is a second rounder and a salary dump for him. Anything else is not realistic. He's a nice player but he's expendable for our team since we're focusing on developing our rookies. This is year 1 of the Knicks Process, get ready for the long haul.

I think that deal is Faried and a #2 for Lee. Knicks just waive Faried. Nuggets get a player that helps them much more than Faried who they have been trying to dump for awhile. Knicks lose Lee on their cap next year. Helps both teams.

Sounds reasonable. Helps both teams and gets Lee on a playoff contending team.

fishmike wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:All I want is a second rounder and a salary dump for him. Anything else is not realistic. He's a nice player but he's expendable for our team since we're focusing on developing our rookies. This is year 1 of the Knicks Process, get ready for the long haul.

I think that deal is Faried and a #2 for Lee. Knicks just waive Faried. Nuggets get a player that helps them much more than Faried who they have been trying to dump for awhile. Knicks lose Lee on their cap next year. Helps both teams.

Was going to suggest the same deal. Works for both teams. Faried would be that backup PF that the Knicks are looking for. Also straight up for Wilson Chandler would work as well.

TLover wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:All I want is a second rounder and a salary dump for him. Anything else is not realistic. He's a nice player but he's expendable for our team since we're focusing on developing our rookies. This is year 1 of the Knicks Process, get ready for the long haul.

I think that deal is Faried and a #2 for Lee. Knicks just waive Faried. Nuggets get a player that helps them much more than Faried who they have been trying to dump for awhile. Knicks lose Lee on their cap next year. Helps both teams.

Was going to suggest the same deal. Works for both teams. Faried would be that backup PF that the Knicks are looking for. Also straight up for Wilson Chandler would work as well.

Depends on if the Nuggets want the additional salary.

People keeps saying he has a cap friendly contract, yet he has been available since December, so has lance.

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

excatly

dwiley20 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

excatly

The problem is the sheer number of FA SG's this year- a lot a good defenders and can shoot the 3 and are cheaper:

Signed:

Will Barton (4yrs $52mil re-signed Nuggets)
JJ Redick (1 yr re-signed with Sixers)
Caldwell-Pope (1yr $12mil re-signed with Lakers)
Belinelli (2yr $12mil Spurs)
Joe Harris ( yr $16mil Nets)
Lance Stephenson (1yr $5mil)

Still free:

Avery Bradley
Tyreke Evans
laVine
Seth Curry
Garrett Temple
Wayne Ellington
Marcus Smart

The market's been saturated. Teams over the cap have $8mil MLE, but that will get you a SG that brings roughly what Lee does except cheaper. Some like Avery Bradley are better.

Jmpasq wrote:

reub wrote:I want to trade Lee in a deal that involves Kawhi to the Lakers.

Lakers get: Kawhi, Kanter
Knicks get: Ball, Randall, Deng
Spurs get: Kuzma, Lee, Lance, THJr. and Lakers' #1

LMAO, yeah good chance this deal happens. Why are the Spurs doing this deal? The Knicks get the best young asset while giving up garbage no one wants

Agreed...Spurs are trading a top 3 player in the league and are getting back Courtney Lee, Hardaway and Lance F**** Thomas?! LMAO....Fans always make up these one sided trades that only benefits their team

smackeddog wrote:

dwiley20 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

excatly

The problem is the sheer number of FA SG's this year- a lot a good defenders and can shoot the 3 and are cheaper:

Signed:

Will Barton (4yrs $52mil re-signed Nuggets)
JJ Redick (1 yr re-signed with Sixers)
Caldwell-Pope (1yr $12mil re-signed with Lakers)
Belinelli (2yr $12mil Spurs)
Joe Harris ( yr $16mil Nets)
Lance Stephenson (1yr $5mil)

Still free:

Avery Bradley
Tyreke Evans
laVine
Seth Curry
Garrett Temple
Wayne Ellington
Marcus Smart

The market's been saturated. Teams over the cap have $8mil MLE, but that will get you a SG that brings roughly what Lee does except cheaper. Some like Avery Bradley are better.

That's a good point, though some of those dudes who are decent 3 pt shooters aren't as good as Lee defensively (i.e. Belinelli, Redick, Curry) or are good defenders but not as good a shooter (i.e. Smart, Bradley).

mixed feelings:

on the one hand, I like Lee a lot and think he deserves to close out his career on a contender. excellent shooter; smart; pro
on the other hand, he's still a good mentor.

See that Anthony Tolliver is going to the T-Wolves. Lee for Taj Gibson’s expiring contract would be ideal. Getting the Brooklyn born Gibson to be a veteran defensive presence would great; but that’s Tibs’ guy who knows all the defensive rotations.

Also Lee to Grizzlies and getting back the expirings of Jamichael Green & Ben McClamore would be ideal as well.

Welpee wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

dwiley20 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

excatly

The problem is the sheer number of FA SG's this year- a lot a good defenders and can shoot the 3 and are cheaper:

Signed:

Will Barton (4yrs $52mil re-signed Nuggets)
JJ Redick (1 yr re-signed with Sixers)
Caldwell-Pope (1yr $12mil re-signed with Lakers)
Belinelli (2yr $12mil Spurs)
Joe Harris ( yr $16mil Nets)
Lance Stephenson (1yr $5mil)

Still free:

Avery Bradley
Tyreke Evans
laVine
Seth Curry
Garrett Temple
Wayne Ellington
Marcus Smart

The market's been saturated. Teams over the cap have $8mil MLE, but that will get you a SG that brings roughly what Lee does except cheaper. Some like Avery Bradley are better.

That's a good point, though some of those dudes who are decent 3 pt shooters aren't as good as Lee defensively (i.e. Belinelli, Redick, Curry) or are good defenders but not as good a shooter (i.e. Smart, Bradley).

Lee is a true two way player and you don't have to hide him on the floor. I don't understand why knicks fans don't value this. I think there should be a market of first round picks for Lee. If Houston or Lakers wants to mount a challenge this is the type of guy they should target. Houston just lost Reezy.

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

dwiley20 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Is there no way to get a mid/late first rounder from somewhere? This guy is a rotation player without any baggage.
We shouldn't look to short sell him. He can definitely add value to a team. If we had to go get a player like him, what would be the odds of landing one without giving up something valuable? As triple threat says lets do that mirror test thingy.

excatly

The problem is the sheer number of FA SG's this year- a lot a good defenders and can shoot the 3 and are cheaper:

Signed:

Will Barton (4yrs $52mil re-signed Nuggets)
JJ Redick (1 yr re-signed with Sixers)
Caldwell-Pope (1yr $12mil re-signed with Lakers)
Belinelli (2yr $12mil Spurs)
Joe Harris ( yr $16mil Nets)
Lance Stephenson (1yr $5mil)

Still free:

Avery Bradley
Tyreke Evans
laVine
Seth Curry
Garrett Temple
Wayne Ellington
Marcus Smart

The market's been saturated. Teams over the cap have $8mil MLE, but that will get you a SG that brings roughly what Lee does except cheaper. Some like Avery Bradley are better.

That's a good point, though some of those dudes who are decent 3 pt shooters aren't as good as Lee defensively (i.e. Belinelli, Redick, Curry) or are good defenders but not as good a shooter (i.e. Smart, Bradley).

Lee is a true two way player and you don't have to hide him on the floor. I don't understand why knicks fans don't value this. I think there should be a market of first round picks for Lee. If Houston or Lakers wants to mount a challenge this is the type of guy they should target. Houston just lost Reezy.

i think knick fans value Lee and management said last year they valued him. But he has 2 years left on his deal and will be 34 at the end of it. He isn't a part of the future and his deal prevents them from having a max slot. I know one of the rocket reporters said he would be perfect for the rockets but they would need a third team to get an expiring deal and would need to
Move Anderson and a pick. I think if the Knicks can move Lee's deal for an expiring contract without giving up a second round pick.

The absolute best the Knicks can hope for with Lee is a straight dump. We just trade him for a trade exception that's it, no assets changing hands. I would give him away, Id give away Hardaway jr too. I'm disgusted by this franchise and the never ending parade of brutal contracts

If we were cold blooded, I'd love to send him to the Kings for one of their front court players (WCS), though I don't think we're allowed to trade with the Kings until 12 months or so after Perry signed with us (part of the requirements of us signing him from them).

Updated:

Signed:
Will Barton (4yrs $52mil re-signed Nuggets)
JJ Redick (1 yr $12mil re-signed with Sixers)
Caldwell-Pope (1yr $12mil re-signed with Lakers)
Belinelli (2yr $12mil Spurs)
Joe Harris ( yr $16mil Nets)
Lance Stephenson (1yr $5mil)
Seth Curry (2yrs $5.4mil with Blazers)
Avery Bradley (2yrs $25mil Clippers)

Still free:

Tyreke Evans
laVine
Garrett Temple
Wayne Ellington
Marcus Smart

Of those only Ellington is a good shooter, so hopefully interest in CLee will start to pick up now- contract wise he's pretty much at the going rate for his level (Avery Bradly, Redick, Pope, about $12mil per year)

TripleThreat wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Lee is a true two way player and you don't have to hide him on the floor. I don't understand why knicks fans don't value this. I think there should be a market of first round picks for Lee. If Houston or Lakers wants to mount a challenge this is the type of guy they should target. Houston just lost Reezy.

What "fans" think is often irrelevant to the actual marketplace.

Lee was signed by an aging crony like Phil Jackson who had no previous front office experience, in a cap environment that took a spike because there was a huge increase but no smoothing option.

A RATIONAL team with an EXPERIENCED front office head would see the bubble was going to pop and a MARKET CORRECTION was soon coming. Lee's actual projectible market value was likely 2/16. On a push, 4/24 with adjustment for AAV for length (And that's a big ass push too).

Most teams right now are over the cap. Meaning the most that most teams have to trade are bad contracts. I keep hearing he can help a contender. OK, what are contenders dumping in salary to get Lee, and do the Knicks want those players? Ryan Anderson? Luol Deng?

NO rational team is going into the tax zone, deeper in the tax zone or deeper into the repeater zone for Courtney Lee. Full stop. End of story. No rebuilding team wants him except to dump their own shitty contracts. Which the Knicks don't want anyway.

Someone feel free to list the sub contender rosters ( anyone not the Warriors who hope the Warriors suffer two major injuries to have a chance in hell) and point out a feasible trade where Lee moves to them without changing their tax needle or improving it where it's not an outright horse f**k of the Knicks or the non Knicks team.

If he had practical trade value for a POSITIVE ASSET, he'd be gone already. He's still on the roster, what does that say?

I get it, I do. Knicks fans, many, want to support a hard working team player who isn't a typical chucking asshole diva who cares more about a shoe deal or dropping a rap video on Instagram. His AAV and remaining contract are too punitive in the current marketplace.

If anyone thinks Lee is going to net a first rounder ( aside from the Knicks taking a truly horrible contract back), then you are wrong. Not "fans" saying you are wrong, the marketplace is saying you are wrong. Want proof? Knicks have tried to trade him for two years now and he's still on this roster.

You're spending a lot of time arguing a point I don't think anyone is making. Lee's value is to a contending team. Now that the east is WIDE open a bunch of teams in this conference are now contending teams to get to the finals. But to your point, yes I think Houston would pay the tax to get a player like Lee, considering they'd have to also unload salary too for a trade to work meaning their tax bill shouldn't change that much.

the list of players in Lee salary range

Austin Rivers, PG LA Clippers $12,650,000
92 Kelly Olynyk, PF Miami Heat $12,537,527
93 Jeremy Lin, PG Brooklyn Nets $12,516,746
94 Jordan Clarkson, PG Los Angeles Lakers $12,500,000
95 Miles Plumlee, C Atlanta Hawks $12,500,000
96 Zach Randolph, PF Sacramento Kings $12,307,692
97 Courtney Lee, SG New York Knicks $12,253,780
98 Solomon Hill, SF New Orleans Pelicans $12,236,535
99 Nikola Pekovic, C Minnesota Timberwolves $12,100,000
100 Wilson Chandler, SF Denver Nuggets $12,016,854
R

K NAME TEAM SALARY
101 Kemba Walker, PG Charlotte Hornets $12,000,000
102 Derrick Favors, PF Utah Jazz $12,000,000
103 Dion Waiters, SG Miami Heat $11,550,000
104 John Henson, C Milwaukee Bucks $11,327,466
105 Omer Asik, C Chicago Bulls $11,286,516
106 Monta Ellis, SG Indiana Pacers $11,227,000
107 Alec Burks, SG Utah Jazz $10,845,506
108 Patty Mills, PG San Antonio Spurs $10,714,286
109 Tony Snell, SG Milwaukee Bucks $10,607,143
110 Terrence Ross, SG Orlando Magic $10,500,000

RK NAME TEAM SALARY
111 Mirza Teletovic, PF Milwaukee Bucks $10,500,000
112 Bojan Bogdanovic, SF Indiana Pacers $10,500,000
113 Robert Covington, SF Philadelphia 76ers $10,464,092
114 Iman Shumpert, SG Cleveland Cavaliers $10,337,079
115 Maurice Harkless, SF Portland Trail Blazers $10,162,922
116 Jon Leuer, PF Detroit Pistons $10,002,681
117 Danny Green, SG San Antonio Spurs $10,000,000
118 Jared Dudley, SF Phoenix Suns $10,000,000
119 Al Jefferson, C Indiana Pacers $10,000,000