Knicks · The importance of Mario Herzonia (page 1)

He is 23 yrs old and won't be 24 until Feb. He will probably start and will get every opportunity to put up numbers. At the deadline if things play out and Butler is telling Minny he doesn't want to resign and wants to go to NY. Hardaway and a 23 yr old Mario possibly putting up 15-16pts 4-5rebs at 46% making 6.5mil will hold value in a deal for Butler. Minny can sell themselves on getting 26 & 23 yr old wings who are putting up 15-17pts with short term contracts. Tim would have 2 yrs left on his deal after the season with a PO. Minny looking to maintain playoff appearances may value ready made contributors in their prime more so than future assets if they are to lose Butler.

Landing Butler would probably lock in Kyrie.

The other route is to keep the depth. Which Mario would still be an important piece. Say Knicks miss out on all the stars. Keeping Mario, Kanter, & Burke in role player bench deals to provide depth may make sense as well. Kanter can fit in a instant offense role to blend in with KP & Mitch if the price drops to the going rate of players like him. Could use the rest of the available money on a G/F that offers a better compliment to Thjr than Lee offers seeking a better ball handler at the SG position. This isn't counting our draft pick either. Knicks could really put together a deep team.

So many moving pieces going into this season its mind bending to see how the chess board will be played.
There is a high volume of talent on this roster one of these: Mario, Vonleh, Mudiay, Burke, Trier or Baker will break out nice. Add Hardaway to the mix and
there some nice things. At the same time one or two will wash out. That's cool too. Its going to happen.

newyorknewyork wrote:He is 23 yrs old and won't be 24 until Feb. He will probably start and will get every opportunity to put up numbers. At the deadline if things play out and Butler is telling Minny he doesn't want to resign and wants to go to NY. Hardaway and a 23 yr old Mario possibly putting up 15-16pts 4-5rebs at 46% making 6.5mil will hold value in a deal for Butler. Minny can sell themselves on getting 26 & 23 yr old wings who are putting up 15-17pts with short term contracts. Tim would have 2 yrs left on his deal after the season with a PO. Minny looking to maintain playoff appearances may value ready made contributors in their prime more so than future assets if they are to lose Butler.

Landing Butler would probably lock in Kyrie.

The other route is to keep the depth. Which Mario would still be an important piece. Say Knicks miss out on all the stars. Keeping Mario, Kanter, & Burke in role player bench deals to provide depth may make sense as well. Kanter can fit in a instant offense role to blend in with KP & Mitch if the price drops to the going rate of players like him. Could use the rest of the available money on a G/F that offers a better compliment to Thjr than Lee offers seeking a better ball handler at the SG position. This isn't counting our draft pick either. Knicks could really put together a deep team.

Makes a heck of a lot of sense. I can't wait to see what Mario can give us! I do a live strean tonight, do you mind if I use this as a topic? I will give you credit and show your post on the stream.

Feel free, you can even take the credit. I just want the Knicks to be good. Lol

Credit ho-ing aside, I agree with newyork that Perry signed Hezonja at the right time in his career. Young enough to still become more of an impact player for years to come. Old enough to have a sense of urgency about his rep in this league, which also means $$$$.

I like your second option better. If Mario turns into a reliable role player, thats one less player you have to look for. Knox is a high flyer, injuries wouldnt be a big surprise. Heznoja can play the 3 or. 4, or so Im told.

That G/F to compliment THJ might end up being Frank. He's getting taller, bigger.

The only big move Id like to see Perry make is for a starting quality PG, who is close to the same timeline as our young core. Otherwise, Id rather just watch Perry giving this team more depth. That's the calling card the Knicks need to be a real destination for legit FAs.

GustavBahler wrote:Credit ho-ing aside, I agree with newyork that Perry signed Hezonja at the right time in his career. Young enough to still become more of an impact player for years to come. Old enough to have a sense of urgency about his rep in this league, which also means $$$$.

I like your second option better. If Mario turns into a reliable role player, thats one less player you have to look for. Knox is a high flyer, injuries wouldnt be a big surprise. Heznoja can play the 3 or. 4, or so Im told.

That G/F to compliment THJ might end up being Frank. He's getting taller, bigger.

The only big move Id like to see Perry make is for a starting quality PG, who is close to the same timeline as our young core. Otherwise, Id rather just watch Perry giving this team more depth. That's the calling card the Knicks need to be a real destination for legit FAs.

I'm thinking these guys need to be a little better than role players, especially Mario and THJ.

The question is, between Boston and Minny who's going to take that chance and let it play out and see if they can re-signed them at seasons end. I think the Thunder may have set off a trend with how they got PG13.

I don't want to trade Mario if he is doing well, and I certainly want no part of Butler. Too many grind it out miles on his body. Thank you Tom Thibodeau.

Nalod wrote:So many moving pieces going into this season its mind bending to see how the chess board will be played.
There is a high volume of talent on this roster one of these: Mario, Vonleh, Mudiay, Burke, Trier or Baker will break out nice. Add Hardaway to the mix and
there some nice things. At the same time one or two will wash out. That's cool too. Its going to happen.

Will be a "no sweat" season for me as a fan.

Many hungry players in their mid to early 20s, many of them former lottery picks, who have a lot to prove. Three kids 21 and younger who will have a chance to prove themselves without worrying about the bottom line.

Put on your patience cap and enjoy the good, bad, and ugly we will see on the court.

Will be an interesting year.

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Credit ho-ing aside, I agree with newyork that Perry signed Hezonja at the right time in his career. Young enough to still become more of an impact player for years to come. Old enough to have a sense of urgency about his rep in this league, which also means $$$$.

I like your second option better. If Mario turns into a reliable role player, thats one less player you have to look for. Knox is a high flyer, injuries wouldnt be a big surprise. Heznoja can play the 3 or. 4, or so Im told.

That G/F to compliment THJ might end up being Frank. He's getting taller, bigger.

The only big move Id like to see Perry make is for a starting quality PG, who is close to the same timeline as our young core. Otherwise, Id rather just watch Perry giving this team more depth. That's the calling card the Knicks need to be a real destination for legit FAs.

I'm thinking these guys need to be a little better than role players, especially Mario and THJ.

The question is, between Boston and Minny who's going to take that chance and let it play out and see if they can re-signed them at seasons end. I think the Thunder may have set off a trend with how they got PG13.

There are run of the mill role players, and there are role players who help turn teams into contenders. Obviously wouldnt want Hezonja around long term if he didnt move the needle.

We slightly overpaid for Mario, which is totally fine. I just wish the Knicks would have included a team option for yr 2 and 3, Knicks would attain bird rights and have one of the most desired contracts in the nba if he broke out.

If he is too good, Knicks will have to make some tough choices. A situation that perhaps could have been avoided.

nyvector16 wrote:We slightly overpaid for Mario, which is totally fine. I just wish the Knicks would have included a team option for yr 2 and 3, Knicks would attain bird rights and have one of the most desired contracts in the nba if he broke out.

If he is too good, Knicks will have to make some tough choices. A situation that perhaps could have been avoided.

Pretty sure I read at least one article that quoted Mario himself saying he had better offers but liked what Fiz and the rest where doing with the Knicks.

*Edited for accuracy

Was thinkin bit about this today.

Knicks may have f'd up with the way they structured the signing. Maybe not.

So, Hezonja is a guy that, for any lifelong baller, you know intrinsically the guy has game. He's a legit talent. This is not a guy you want to just "audition" for another team's benefit essentially. The point of signing him is to presumably keep him long-term assuming he breaks out a bit.

He can play the 2, 3, and 4. Still young. Athletic. Can shoot. Can pass. Again, this is a guy built for the modern game with great size.

I'm working under the assumption the front office mandatory plan is to get a max FA next summer at all costs.

So, someone can double check this, but basically if we're stretching Noah, we're going to need to trade Baker for an expiring to ensure that we reach that $33 Million number. Lee is not movable at this point. You could attach 2 second round picks to him, but that would be wasteful of assets, and not actually necessary. Plus, we've seen now the inherent value of a 2nd round pick with the emergence of Robinson. Hardaway is only movable with a 1st, therefore scratch that. Baker is set to make only $5.7 Million in his final year going into next summer, which should be easy enough to shed if we attach only 1 middling second rounder. Baker's still young, cost-controlled, and plays defense. I could see a team like Philly taking a shot on him.

So, weirdly enough, if the Knicks took back no salary in a dump for Baker, waived and stretched Noah, renounced all cap holds minus KP and the mandatory minimum salary slots, and selected no higher than 5th in the 2019 draft...

they'd be right on target.

But here's the issue: I wanna keep Hezonja. I don't know what YOU think, but it's little transactional things like this that make a difference down the line. And I know I'm right about this one.

Remember Ricky Mahorn? Pistons, fresh off a championship, sacrificed him in the expansion draft and went on to self-combust. Mahorn wasn't an All-Star, but he was an important role player. It's like Jenga, once you start removing pieces, sh*t can start to tumble down. Robert Horry was never an All-Star either, but I can't imagine all those teams are guaranteed a chip without him if we're playing revisionist history.

Hezonja can be an important piece for the future.

So, how did the Knicks potentially F up?

They didn't pay him ENOUGH.

Now, if the above laid out plan stays true, and that's the course we maintain, the following won't matter because we'll be forced to renounce his cap hold and will only be able to offer the full Mid Level, which starts at around $9 million (not a bad raise). But if we DON'T land a max free agent and strike out, we'll have wished we paid Hezonja more than $6.5 because currently we only have his non-Bird rights, which means even WITH his cap hold in place we can only pay 120% (or $7.8 Million) of his previous salary or the league average ($9 Million), whichever is higher. You do the math.

This means the highest we can pay him is the mid-level IRREGARDLESS of our cap situation this summer. And thus this was a STUPID blunder. Every team in the league can offer him that.

Had we used the BAE for Robinson, and spent, say $7.5 or even the full 8.8 Million this year on Mario, we could hypothetically offer him MORE than the projected Mid-Level. That's an important distinction since it would mean we could beat out ALL OTHER capped out teams in the league to resign him. Sure, we'd get crucified in the media for "overpaying", but that's short-lived. And sure, a team under the cap could still overpay for him, but that's a small risk in the grand scheme. Actually, now that I'm on the subject, if it were me I'd actively avoid that pitfall by enforcing a minutes restriction on him this upcoming season. Basically I'd artificially decrease his value.

In any event, Knicks really should have paid Mario a higher salary this year to remove competition for his services next summer. Just as a backup precaution. Again, if he even reaches 80% of his potential we're talking a JR Smith 2.0 6th Man of the Year type player.

HOWEVER

My feeling is we'll follow the above laid-out plan. We'll grab Kyrie, then resign KP with his Bird-rights, then resign Hezonja as N UFA on a 2 + 1, FULL Mid-level deal ($9 Million in 1st year), and fill out the roster with mostly minimum contracts, a BAE, and draft picks.

If his agent agreed to that (possible) we'd secure his Early Bird rights, giving us the ability to pay him 175% above his previous salary starting in year 4, which could top out at over $16 Million annually...

At the end of the day, it's all about keeping options open. And the Hezonja signing is proof that the devil is in the details. So by saving money on Mario in the short-term, thus making the signing appear to be a "steal," Perry may have ironically hampered our flexibility in the long run. Let's see what happens.

So, that was a long read. Hope the write-up is appreciated, though, as it should be.

If Mario is doing well, you keep him. I want no part of Butler or Kyrie.

I think Mario will have a career year under coach Fiz.

To be honest this team will not be offensively challenged, especially when KP returns.

franco12 wrote:I don't want to trade Mario if he is doing well, and I certainly want no part of Butler. Too many grind it out miles on his body. Thank you Tom Thibodeau.

singing Butler would be a disaster

nyvector16 wrote:We slightly overpaid for Mario, which is totally fine. I just wish the Knicks would have included a team option for yr 2 and 3, Knicks would attain bird rights and have one of the most desired contracts in the nba if he broke out.

If he is too good, Knicks will have to make some tough choices. A situation that perhaps could have been avoided.

its a one year deal no big deal. Its actually beneficial if we end up trading him. He and Kanter would get us enough for a max deal

martin wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:We slightly overpaid for Mario, which is totally fine. I just wish the Knicks would have included a team option for yr 2 and 3, Knicks would attain bird rights and have one of the most desired contracts in the nba if he broke out.

If he is too good, Knicks will have to make some tough choices. A situation that perhaps could have been avoided.

Pretty sure I read at least one article that quoted Mario himself saying he had better offers but liked what Fiz and the rest where doing with the Knicks.

I know he was offered more years from other teams (blazers?). I think he chose the Knicks because of Perry and the opportunity for playing time.

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:We slightly overpaid for Mario, which is totally fine. I just wish the Knicks would have included a team option for yr 2 and 3, Knicks would attain bird rights and have one of the most desired contracts in the nba if he broke out.

If he is too good, Knicks will have to make some tough choices. A situation that perhaps could have been avoided.

Pretty sure I read at least one article that quoted Mario himself saying he had better offers but liked what Fiz and the rest where doing with the Knicks.

I know he was offered more years from other teams (blazers?). I think he chose the Knicks because of Perry and the opportunity for playing time.

Agreed. Mario wanted to play here. Teams are careful to not sign players as assets and then move them off - can really come back to haunt you. We are building relationships now.
I want no part of Butler, not at his age. Let's see how the season progresses and if we are playing better than expected and KP is back, then we can talk about Butler.
But right now, we are probably looking at a top 5 pick, at least top 10, in this next draft.

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:We slightly overpaid for Mario, which is totally fine. I just wish the Knicks would have included a team option for yr 2 and 3, Knicks would attain bird rights and have one of the most desired contracts in the nba if he broke out.

If he is too good, Knicks will have to make some tough choices. A situation that perhaps could have been avoided.

Pretty sure I read at least one article that quoted Mario himself saying he had better offers but liked what Fiz and the rest where doing with the Knicks.

I know he was offered more years from other teams (blazers?). I think he chose the Knicks because of Perry and the opportunity for playing time.

That's probably why they didn't resigned Bease, considering Knox and mario will get the bulk of mins

ThePunisher wrote:Remember Ricky Mahorn? Pistons, fresh off a championship, sacrificed him in the expansion draft and went on to self-combust.

I hope we "self-combust" like they did since they won a championship the next season after he got picked up in the expansion draft.

Welpee wrote:

ThePunisher wrote:Remember Ricky Mahorn? Pistons, fresh off a championship, sacrificed him in the expansion draft and went on to self-combust.

I hope we "self-combust" like they did since they won a championship the next season after he got picked up in the expansion draft.

I could do without the snarky tone. That said, you're correct and that was a misnomer on my end. Was quick-editing that post and completely forgot which year he was let go.

THAT SAID: I am partially right...ex-Pistons have mentioned that moment as the beginning of the end, coupled with injuries. He was a big part of their identity. Mahorn was the soul of that squad.

Read this:

https://www.detroitathletic.com/blog/201...

So after choosing to give up Mahorn, McCloskey immediately tried to prevent it from happening. Stauth says he arranged a three-team deal where Orlando would take Micheal Williams from the Pistons, then trade him to the Pacers and swap draft picks with them. But that would only work if Minnesota passed on Mahorn. And Minnesota’s coach, Bill Musselman, wanted Mahorn more than anyone.

“To have Rick have to go through that on that day, to have us have to go through that on that day–that was awful,” Thomas told the documentary.

The following week, the Pistons visited the White House for a more subdued celebration. A somber Thomas took the podium and noted that this was the team’s last appearance with Mahorn.

“This was the Bad Boys,” Thomas said. “There can only be one Bad Boy basketball team. This was it, and there can never be another one.”