Knicks · OT- Sen. John McCain has died (page 1)

I wanted to send out my condolences to the McCain family. I did not agree with his politics but I respected him as a war hero. Also, during the 2008 elections, when white racists were calling for him to label Obama an Arab and other perceived negative things, he refused to allow his campaign to go there. He did not want his campaign to be about race and hate, which is why I so despise Trump because he latched on to the fear and racism in this county and fed into it for his own gain instead of trying to lift us higher. John McCain, a great patriot and politician. Rest In Peace.

RIP. A good person, a solid American and a real outstanding human being.
Hated his politics and his VP candidate with a passion, but I appreciate a person who standayo and fights for what he believes in. Dude was hardcore.

Respect.

One of the most respected American politicians of last decade and great American patriot, but most of all a Man who was accepting his in-perfections and was true to his values.
Not many people are of this high qualities. RIP.

arkrud wrote:One of the most respected American politicians of last decade and great American patriot, but most of all a Man who was accepting his in-perfections and was true to his values.
Not many people are of this high qualities. RIP.

+1

meloshouldgo wrote:RIP. A good person, a solid American and a real outstanding human being.
Hated his politics and his VP candidate with a passion, but I appreciate a person who standayo and fights for what he believes in. Dude was hardcore.

Respect.

Aside from his VP choice, what about his politics did you hate with a passion?

Rest in Peace John McCain. Admired his stance on the government use of torture.

McCain's willingness and political courage, to challenge his own party (in power) on this issue, in the years following 9/11 was admirable. Wasnt an easy time to speak out.

Also admired how he told an elderly white woman during his White House run in effect, that Obama was just as much an American as he was. When all that Kenya birth certificate drama(promoted by you know who) was all over the airwaves.

Dont have to be like minded politically to admire McCain's willingness to take unpopular but IMO riteous stands, when it meant something. Rest in Peace.

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:RIP. A good person, a solid American and a real outstanding human being.
Hated his politics and his VP candidate with a passion, but I appreciate a person who standayo and fights for what he believes in. Dude was hardcore.

Respect.

Aside from his VP choice, what about his politics did you hate with a passion?

He was a centrist, a neo-liberal, pro military conservative. I hate every one of those things. But I respect him for being an honest stand up person. He was authentic and drama free.

meloshouldgo wrote:

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:RIP. A good person, a solid American and a real outstanding human being.
Hated his politics and his VP candidate with a passion, but I appreciate a person who standayo and fights for what he believes in. Dude was hardcore.

Respect.

Aside from his VP choice, what about his politics did you hate with a passion?

He was a centrist, a neo-liberal, pro military conservative. I hate every one of those things. But I respect him for being an honest stand up person. He was authentic and drama free.

You hate him for being a centrist?

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:RIP. A good person, a solid American and a real outstanding human being.
Hated his politics and his VP candidate with a passion, but I appreciate a person who standayo and fights for what he believes in. Dude was hardcore.

Respect.

Aside from his VP choice, what about his politics did you hate with a passion?

He was a centrist, a neo-liberal, pro military conservative. I hate every one of those things. But I respect him for being an honest stand up person. He was authentic and drama free.

You hate him for being a centrist?

I don't hate him, I thought I made it clear I respected him. I hated his politics, yes.

Centrists tend to be neo liberals and in my opinion they are primarily responsible for destroying the middle class and polarization of wealth. The US had a ridiculously strong and affluent middle class in the 50s-60s under leadership of social Democrats. That has now been reduced to debt laden slavery under "leadership" of centrists from both sides. I have been saying this for a long time now, even on these boards.

McCain: I’m well-versed in economics; I was at the Reagan Revolution. (Jan 2008)

meloshouldgo wrote:

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:RIP. A good person, a solid American and a real outstanding human being.
Hated his politics and his VP candidate with a passion, but I appreciate a person who standayo and fights for what he believes in. Dude was hardcore.

Respect.

Aside from his VP choice, what about his politics did you hate with a passion?

He was a centrist, a neo-liberal, pro military conservative. I hate every one of those things. But I respect him for being an honest stand up person. He was authentic and drama free.

You hate him for being a centrist?

I don't hate him, I thought I made it clear I respected him. I hated his politics, yes.

Centrists tend to be neo liberals and in my opinion they are primarily responsible for destroying the middle class and polarization of wealth. The US had a ridiculously strong and affluent middle class in the 50s-60s under leadership of social Democrats. That has now been reduced to debt laden slavery under "leadership" of centrists from both sides. I have been saying this for a long time now, even on these boards.

McCain: im well-versed in economics; I was at the Reagan Revolution. (Jan 2008)

By my definition of a centrist, he could pick and choose from various policies and isn't married to the party dictated agenda. Someone willing to compromise with both sides to get reasonable things done, for the benefit of the country even if not for his party. (eg, John McCain)
Apparently, in your definition there is some centrist platform. Can you elaborate what these policies are that have destroyed the middle class that the "centrist agenda" has espoused?

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Panos wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:RIP. A good person, a solid American and a real outstanding human being.
Hated his politics and his VP candidate with a passion, but I appreciate a person who standayo and fights for what he believes in. Dude was hardcore.

Respect.

Aside from his VP choice, what about his politics did you hate with a passion?

He was a centrist, a neo-liberal, pro military conservative. I hate every one of those things. But I respect him for being an honest stand up person. He was authentic and drama free.

You hate him for being a centrist?

I don't hate him, I thought I made it clear I respected him. I hated his politics, yes.

Centrists tend to be neo liberals and in my opinion they are primarily responsible for destroying the middle class and polarization of wealth. The US had a ridiculously strong and affluent middle class in the 50s-60s under leadership of social Democrats. That has now been reduced to debt laden slavery under "leadership" of centrists from both sides. I have been saying this for a long time now, even on these boards.

McCain: im well-versed in economics; I was at the Reagan Revolution. (Jan 2008)

By my definition of a centrist, he could pick and choose from various policies and isn't married to the party dictated agenda. Someone willing to compromise with both sides to get reasonable things done, for the benefit of the country even if not for his party. (eg, John McCain)
Apparently, in your definition there is some centrist platform. Can you elaborate what these policies are that have destroyed the middle class that the "centrist agenda" has espoused?

Yes I can but not right now. Off the top of my head - Deregulation, repeal of Glass Stegall, The three idiots act (Graham, Leach, Bailey), NAFTA, Bush Tax cuts, lowering capital gains tax, increasing the tax burden on consumption, its an endless list.

Here's his voting record on social issues

Voting Record

• Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007) – MAJOR FAIL
• Voted YES on restricting UN funding for population control policies. (Mar 2009) - PROBLEM
• Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008) – POPULIST RIGHT WING IDIOCRACY
• Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007) -SAME
• Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007) – GOOD!
• Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006) - MEH
• Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005) – MORE IDIOCRACY
• Voted YES on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
• Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
• Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
• Voted YES on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998) – HE USED THINK ONE SARAH PALIN WAS ENOUGH< THEN WHAT CHANGED?
• Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record. (Dec 2003) - YUP
• Expand embryonic stem cell research. (Jun 2004)
• Rated 75% by the NRLC, indicating a mixed record on abortion. (Dec 2006)-MIXED??? WTF??
• Prohibit transporting minors across state lines for abortion. (Jan 2008)

Everything you stated has to do with abortion. I don't see anything to do with destroying the middle class.
And banning abortion is a right wing thing. It's not part of some "centrist agenda"

Panos wrote:Everything you stated has to do with abortion. I don't see anything to do with destroying the middle class.
And banning abortion is a right wing thing. It's not part of some "centrist agenda"

Those were his social positions. I am trying to find his voting record on economic policies, it's harder to put together. But he did participate in all those things I outlined in my prior post.

CENTRISTS

First off I want to present the idea of Argument moderation and why the core tenet of Centrism is flawed: Just because there are two extreme or opposite positions, it does not always follow that the compromise position is correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_t...

To define the impact of centrist policies we would have to agree on who are centrists and who are not - I think of Lyndon Johnson, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Bush, Clinton and Obama as all being centrists to different degrees. Centrism in America is right of center (meaning it falls to political right of midpoint between the two extremes)

Of the above the Republicans were definitely more right wing and the democrats were more closer to the middle, but as a result the policy struglle between the two groups ended going right of center.

Do centrists have an unified agenda, it's hard to say. Did their policies deliver a crushing blow to the middle class and destroy it's bargaining power from 70s on to modern times. Abso-fukking-lutely. To me the right wing and the centrists have both really played the same game just in two different ways appealing to different sets of emotions. Neither side wanted teh middle class to flourish, but one side was willing to chop them off at the knees, the other wanted a softer approach with more feel good stories woven in to create a sense of false contentment.

When in the 50s -60s the middle class had real affluence, they were not enslaved to their jobs and had teh power to negotiate, they also had real upward mobility. The ruling class of oligarchs found this to be disquieting and felt threatened that their power was slipping away. How this group funded, and controlled both sides of the political debate (Republicans and Centrist Democrats) over time to impose their will on the middle class is the true story of the requiem of the American Dream. I will try to provide a timeline of events and key policy changes (some that I have already mentoned above) but I can't find every centrist that voted on those - I do't have th etime or resources to put that type of research together.

This is the problem with our country. All of these labels. He's a centrist, he's a conservative, he's a liberal. Nobody is any one thing. I am a democrat but I agree with a few ideas that republicans propose. Some republicans could not careless about abortion, while some conservatives believe in gay rights. When we are always labeling each other that breeds tribalism and hate and closed mindedness. Like McCain said. We need to start off with the presumption that we all love this country and we all have different ideas of how to make it great. If we listen to each other, we can make this a better place. The main problem I see is you have Trump republicans who essentially see that the only problem in this country is that there are non-whites in it and so their agenda is maintaining white privilege and suppressing the minority the vote. That is stuff I cannot abide by and I will fight against that view with everything I have.

TheGame wrote:This is the problem with our country. All of these labels. He's a centrist, he's a conservative, he's a liberal. Nobody is any one thing. I am a democrat but I agree with a few ideas that republicans propose. Some republicans could not careless about abortion, while some conservatives believe in gay rights. When we are always labeling each other that breeds tribalism and hate and closed mindedness. Like McCain said. We need to start off with the presumption that we all love this country and we all have different ideas of how to make it great. If we listen to each other, we can make this a better place. The main problem I see is you have Trump republicans who essentially see that the only problem in this country is that there are non-whites in it and so their agenda is maintaining white privilege and suppressing the minority the vote. That is stuff I cannot abide by and I will fight against that view with everything I have.

I don't disagree that labels are used a lot. I do think they serve a purpose. A label is a way to associate a large set of priorities or choices to any person. Where it breaks down is that certain people seem to think that every position in that set applies to every person who is associated with the label. That's not true, but that doesn't make labeling bad. If you don't use labels you have to separately define every single position taken by a person to describe his/her politics. No one has the time or energy to do that.

<edited the tucking fypos>

Everyone remembers Obama's 2008 speeches but to me McCain's concession speech was one of the best speeches if not the best one I've ever heard. That was so gracious and selfless.

Imagine the chaos that would have ensued had McCain voted with the partisan crowd. I know my wife was still undergoing cancer treatment while Trump was trying to kill ObamaCare. If Obanacare does die in that vote likely treatments/therapies/medications would have been delayed and she might not be alive today. Never mind she has rheumatoid arthritis and needs medication to be able to walk at all.

Thank you John McCain for all that you stood for and against.

SupremeCommander wrote:Everyone remembers Obama's 2008 speeches but to me McCain's concession speech was one of the best speeches if not the best one I've ever heard. That was so gracious and selfless.

100% agreed, and I'd go as far as saying it was better than Obama's. The speech was perfect, and the way he told the crowd to quiet down when they jeered as he mentioned Obama's victory also showed he believed every word of it.

His voting record on abortion though, very poor.

meloshouldgo wrote:

TheGame wrote:This is the problem with our country. All of these labels. He's a centrist, he's a conservative, he's a liberal. Nobody is any one thing. I am a democrat but I agree with a few ideas that republicans propose. Some republicans could not careless about abortion, while some conservatives believe in gay rights. When we are always labeling each other that breeds tribalism and hate and closed mindedness. Like McCain said. We need to start off with the presumption that we all love this country and we all have different ideas of how to make it great. If we listen to each other, we can make this a better place. The main problem I see is you have Trump republicans who essentially see that the only problem in this country is that there are non-whites in it and so their agenda is maintaining white privilege and suppressing the minority the vote. That is stuff I cannot abide by and I will fight against that view with everything I have.

I don't disagree that labels are used a lot. I do think they deserve a purpose. A label is a way to associate a largely sweet of priorities or choices to any person. Where it breaks down is that certain people seem to think that every position in that set applies to every person who is associated with it. That's not true, but that doesn't make labeling bad. If you don't use labels you have to separately define every single position taken by a person tuioi describe his/her politics. No one had the throne or marriage to do that.

I understand your point. However, the problem as you point out is that most people are not using labels as a tool. They are using labels as branding to discredit the views of others in a group. He is a liberal, so now if I am a conservative, I can ignore and discredit everything this other person says through the use of this liberal label. We have stopped listening to each other as a country. We are all Americans. We all will fight for this country. Because I believe in universal healthcare does not make me a bad American. Because someone else does not believe in abortion, does not make them a bad American. The only thing I really cannot condone is the denial of the freedoms afforded in the constitution. When you try to suppress the right to vote, when you unjustly deny another American their liberty and freedom, when you enact policies intended to harm other non-white Americans to maintain white privilege, then to me that is not American, and I cannot condone or accept that. Now if we have disagreements about how big the federal budget should be or whether tariffs are good or whether we are spending too much on the military or on social programs. We can and should have those discussions, and it should not be through labels but it should be through discussion of the individual topics and the pros and cons of each view. IMO, the use of labels is the easy way of creating divisions and tribalism that is the heart of the problems in this country and we will all be better off moving away from labeling each other.