Knicks · Is there any reason for concern. (page 2)
I've soured a great deal on him mostly on his behavior and entitlement attitude. If you get a decent player and a first rounder, you take it.
TripleThreat wrote:Knixkik wrote:NY media just making some noise. If NY tries to short-change him at all, he will just sign a contract for the max with another team that the Knicks will match. I think he returns either way for the full max (no injury exceptions.)The Knicks should trade him to Boston for Tatum.
Zinger has the more rare/coveted skill set, but also the larger injury risk. Boston has questions up the middle for the future.
If we don't get any injury exceptions written in - I would be concerned. Tatum or Levert? Maybe the Nets will give up a pick as well?
KP is working as hard as possible to come back stronger, with more stamina, lower body strength etc. What more can a team ask for?
I understand the injury clause thing and yes maybe that should be there in any max contract but just saying that with him n Mitch in the middle, the combo would be lethal on D
PHil wanted to trade him. In hindsight it would mitigate the lost season. Not known was what we get in return and how that unfolds.
Thus simple formula “anything is better than an ACL to young developing star that has risks”.
Philly endured years of injured rookies and tank seasons to get a core. They basically failed on 3 of 5 first round picks. They went deep.
We are deep. Our last two first round picks are still growing. LItterally!!
It sucks. Find some joy in the process not in the outcome if you can. Better days are ahead but not anytime soon.
fwk00 wrote:Trading Porzingis would be the smart thing to do, IMO.I've soured a great deal on him mostly on his behavior and entitlement attitude. If you get a decent player and a first rounder, you take it.
entitlement???? like where did you get that from.
If anything you trade because he seems injury prone, doesn't rebound or know when to pass.
Phil certainly was asking for the house, farm, the pick up truck, and throw in your wife for good measure, he was pretty much laughed at...
I just hope this doesn't back fire like the ALlan Houston contract, let somebody offer him a max deal and then (150m tops)match it before you out bid yourself.
Champions are not built on Fear.
Some of the greatest teams ever build did not accomplish their goals due to injury or unforeseen misfortune.
Trades go bad, too much blow, injury on or off the court, etc.
While I don't endorse stupidity like building shyt up like Isiah did at a premium then dismantling it at a premium to build on Amare and then selling the farm for Melo (cuboard left bare), I don't go on this chickenshyt fear talk Im hearing.
OMG, Spurs want KP. big freaking deal. He can go play with Derozen? Pop really that good to make them super?
Im more worried about Brooklyn because its NY.
Knick fans are damanged and its expected to expect bad things. But some of you are just plain fearful over shyt you can't control.
No great teams ever formed without taking risk.
I eyeballed back in time about 25 years, and I can't find any finals teams (winners and losers) with any regular starters (ie top 5 players) that had suffered an ACL tear at any point prior to the finals appearance.
(In 2010, Kendrick Perkins tore 2 ligaments including his ACL in game 6)
Perhaps I missed some players. It probably should raise a red flag that our franchise guy has suffered a major setback like this.
Players have come back from OTHER major injuries to perform at the championship level. Duncan at age 23-24ish suffered a torn meniscus and had several finals appearances after. Kyrie Irving suffered multiple fractures in is career prior to his finals appearances with the Cavs.
Just saying.
Here are the players I could dig up with ACL injuries on Finals teams: Shaun Livingston has won a number of titles playing a solid role with the Warriors in recent years, but what is he, the 7th, 8th, or 9th man on the roster (Iguodala at least used to be the 6th man)? And Speedy Claxton won with the Spurs, albeit as a bench rotation player.
But regarding other team's poaching KP? If he wants to leave, he'll either need to:
1) decline any offers he gets this summer and wait 'til summer 2020 when he'll be a UFA
or
2) force a trade
For all the quotes around what his basketball goals are (make lots of money vs be a winner), KP hasn't made the big money yet - and it behooves him to sign a big contract now, perhaps with player options after a couple of years that will allow him to strike it even richer AND/OR join another team when he's entering his prime.
https://twitter.com/aclrecoveryclub/stat...
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/04/the-...
http://blog.fb-ninja.com/acl-tears/
Not an injury as prevalent as I thought. Few teams actually go to the finals so its a hard filter.
Maybe we should worry about the non injured knee. Even DRose came back!
technomaster wrote:Has ANY NBA team won a championship behind a franchise player who had a torn ACL prior to the championship in the past 20 years?
I see your point, and it's a good one.
A more focused alternative question might be what is the attrition rate for pivots in the NBA modern era. Big men in general have a different injury profile than other NBA players. Yao Ming had back problems ( well he had problems all over) Muggsy Bogues? Maybe not so much. But that's an extreme example.
The other issue which is likely harder to quantify is heavy/hard contact rate for Euro players. There is a "Euro Bias" in the league and it wasn't really openly discussed until Darko was drafted. Many players ( better ones to be real about it) were miffed that he was drafted ahead of him and when they got established with "star calls" they simply took turns trying to maul Darko.
Think about the demographic of the average American big man in the NBA. Think about Darko's demographic. It's there, it's just not discussed. Same thing when Derek Fisher just outright starting punching and mauling Jeremy Lin off camera when Lin dropped like nearly 40 points on the Lakers. Fisher understood to do it away from the cameras, but it was there. Stern actually had to stop it. People were just deciding it was time to pummel Lin. Steph Curry gets the same treatment. He's seen as growing up with privilege ( son of an NBA player)
Zinger is going to get hit harder and he needs to hit back harder. This is one thing I can give Kanter credit for, because sometimes players come at him and he's willing to fight.
Darko was an interesting case because some guys decided to take it off the court and then word got out, Darko is/was a fucking gangster. The guy was like Nino Brown. Sit your five dollar ass down or Darko will make change. I mean some American guys think they are hard. Well Darko will go Keyser Soze on you. So that had to end.
Zinger has a very very very high floor.
Things I would look at in terms of contender level teams
A) Free throw attempt differential across a full season
B) Strength of schedule
C) Conversion rate with five seconds or less on the shot clock
D) Number of top 25 players on your roster at any given point ( then Top 50 as a secondary measure)
Injuries make a difference, but to be fair, it's not like Tommy John in MLB and ACLs in the NFL.
It's a good question though. A thoughtful question.
TripleThreat wrote:technomaster wrote:Has ANY NBA team won a championship behind a franchise player who had a torn ACL prior to the championship in the past 20 years?
I see your point, and it's a good one.A more focused alternative question might be what is the attrition rate for pivots in the NBA modern era. Big men in general have a different injury profile than other NBA players. Yao Ming had back problems ( well he had problems all over) Muggsy Bogues? Maybe not so much. But that's an extreme example.
The other issue which is likely harder to quantify is heavy/hard contact rate for Euro players. There is a "Euro Bias" in the league and it wasn't really openly discussed until Darko was drafted. Many players ( better ones to be real about it) were miffed that he was drafted ahead of him and when they got established with "star calls" they simply took turns trying to maul Darko.
Think about the demographic of the average American big man in the NBA. Think about Darko's demographic. It's there, it's just not discussed. Same thing when Derek Fisher just outright starting punching and mauling Jeremy Lin off camera when Lin dropped like nearly 40 points on the Lakers. Fisher understood to do it away from the cameras, but it was there. Stern actually had to stop it. People were just deciding it was time to pummel Lin. Steph Curry gets the same treatment. He's seen as growing up with privilege ( son of an NBA player)
Zinger is going to get hit harder and he needs to hit back harder. This is one thing I can give Kanter credit for, because sometimes players come at him and he's willing to fight.
Darko was an interesting case because some guys decided to take it off the court and then word got out, Darko is/was a fucking gangster. The guy was like Nino Brown. Sit your five dollar ass down or Darko will make change. I mean some American guys think they are hard. Well Darko will go Keyser Soze on you. So that had to end.
Zinger has a very very very high floor.
Things I would look at in terms of contender level teams
A) Free throw attempt differential across a full season
B) Strength of schedule
C) Conversion rate with five seconds or less on the shot clock
D) Number of top 25 players on your roster at any given point ( then Top 50 as a secondary measure)
Injuries make a difference, but to be fair, it's not like Tommy John in MLB and ACLs in the NFL.
It's a good question though. A thoughtful question.
Good take. In reading about this injury and over the years the players who had them I was surprised it was not as common. Some players in their 30's that have it are cooked. Bernard was so special in how he came back and at that age. But he needed two years to fully return. Jabari Parker would be a good case but his defense is abysmal. Lavine seems to have regained his explosiveness and is the same player he was, but that's another story. Takes time to return, then time to evolve also. KP is and was young so his game was not complete. We don't know what he returns to and then how he evolves so the question will remain for some time.
What he is and potential is a player with size and a skill set that can transcend and evolve what a 5 can be. That's some grand statement but this kid has no ceiling. At the same time his size and the physics of tendons and ligaments will be tested. Just because nobody has done things does not mean it can't be done. Kareem and Wilt were amazing athletes that were durable. KP likely won't be mount rushmore because of this. But Arvydas Sabonis might be a pretty good consolation allstar type talent. We got the adult size version of him with bad back. I can't speak for his passing prowess in his younger days but he was amazing. In part because he could shoot. The Jokic kid is a similar weapon because he can shoot. Good passing bigs. KP is a fundamentally good basketball player with a good feel for the game. He should be able to add more pieces to his game.
But first we need to get him on the floor and keep him there! I'd really like to see him play 20 games with strict time limits and get momentum to the off season.
Im glad he is shut down his online social media stuff. The mystery creates intrigue and perhaps knick fans become fearful.
Fans look at results. If change is to happen there are things that we likely can't see yet. Im not blind in my faith but more hopeful I won't hate on what I can't see.
knicks1248 wrote:fwk00 wrote:Trading Porzingis would be the smart thing to do, IMO.I've soured a great deal on him mostly on his behavior and entitlement attitude. If you get a decent player and a first rounder, you take it.
entitlement???? like where did you get that from.
If anything you trade because he seems injury prone, doesn't rebound or know when to pass.
Phil certainly was asking for the house, farm, the pick up truck, and throw in your wife for good measure, he was pretty much laughed at...
I just hope this doesn't back fire like the ALlan Houston contract, let somebody offer him a max deal and then (150m tops)match it before you out bid yourself.
You only trade him because you are super concerned about his rehab process.... and I somehow doubt they are. He’ll never be an awesome rebounder. His passing will be fine. Other than a couple of f’ ups, his attitude seems to be very good. He’s a kid still.. somewhat. F’ ups will happen. LeBron acted like a child with that Decision show, remember.
Allanfan20 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:fwk00 wrote:Trading Porzingis would be the smart thing to do, IMO.I've soured a great deal on him mostly on his behavior and entitlement attitude. If you get a decent player and a first rounder, you take it.
entitlement???? like where did you get that from.
If anything you trade because he seems injury prone, doesn't rebound or know when to pass.
Phil certainly was asking for the house, farm, the pick up truck, and throw in your wife for good measure, he was pretty much laughed at...
I just hope this doesn't back fire like the ALlan Houston contract, let somebody offer him a max deal and then (150m tops)match it before you out bid yourself.
You only trade him because you are super concerned about his rehab process.... and I somehow doubt they are. He’ll never be an awesome rebounder. His passing will be fine. Other than a couple of f’ ups, his attitude seems to be very good. He’s a kid still.. somewhat. F’ ups will happen. LeBron acted like a child with that Decision show, remember.
Seems like his Brother Janis is the mouth piece and makes the final call
knicks1248 wrote:Allanfan20 wrote:knicks1248 wrote:fwk00 wrote:Trading Porzingis would be the smart thing to do, IMO.I've soured a great deal on him mostly on his behavior and entitlement attitude. If you get a decent player and a first rounder, you take it.
entitlement???? like where did you get that from.
If anything you trade because he seems injury prone, doesn't rebound or know when to pass.
Phil certainly was asking for the house, farm, the pick up truck, and throw in your wife for good measure, he was pretty much laughed at...
I just hope this doesn't back fire like the ALlan Houston contract, let somebody offer him a max deal and then (150m tops)match it before you out bid yourself.
You only trade him because you are super concerned about his rehab process.... and I somehow doubt they are. He’ll never be an awesome rebounder. His passing will be fine. Other than a couple of f’ ups, his attitude seems to be very good. He’s a kid still.. somewhat. F’ ups will happen. LeBron acted like a child with that Decision show, remember.
Seems like his Brother Janis is the mouth piece and makes the final call
Seems like his brother is his agent, thus is his mouth piece.
Seems like his brother makes the final call? How do you even arrive from that?
You in his inner circle?