Knicks · Julius Randle would look REALLY good next to Mitch (page 4)

GustavBahler wrote:Would only be interested in a 2 year deal. Dont see him as a long term solution. Would rather sign Kanter for a couple of seasons. Wont happen though.

Kanter? Bro... let go

smackeddog wrote:How come everyone said don't sign Khris Middleton for the max, but they're all in on Randle and D-Lo?! Khris is better than both as he's a better shooter and defender, I'd rather max him than D-Lo or Randle

Middleton will command max which means 30+mil per. Randle should cost 10mil less and is only 24.

BigDaddyG wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:What do you guys think of Bobby Portis as a cheaper alternative? I think he'd fit good next to Mitch.

He’s meant to be a horrific defender

Yeah, but he's also more of a floor space than Randle at this point.

He shot more attempts and increased his % to 34 this past season. He will continue to improve his 3 pt shooting as he is only 24.

smackeddog wrote:How come everyone said don't sign Khris Middleton for the max, but they're all in on Randle and D-Lo?! Khris is better than both as he's a better shooter and defender, I'd rather max him than D-Lo or Randle

Disagree... I like all those guys. I would give Middleton the max. Debatable that is overpaying. His offense is good. His defense is elite. He's 28 and exactly the kind of player I want around my youth. Even if he and RJ play the same position (they can certainly alternate 2/3, and Middleton has played a lot of PF in small ball line ups).

I HOPE we sign Kawhi etc... (obviously) but if the choice is tier 2 or just wait and take on bad contracts with assets attached I am 100% for using the cap space for tier 2 guys.

I would 100% max Middleton who prob the most underrated players in the league.

technomaster wrote:I kind of see Randle as a bit of Draymond Green with more offensive polish and a lot less defense. He passes well enough to help run the offense from the interior. His assist average this past season (3.1) would have been third best on the team and around what you got out of Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Kanter combined!

I’d say his defense is on par or better than what we had last year and playmaking is an order of magnitude better. He’d help Fizdale’s offense work better.

There are some interesting choices to be made by the FO.

Can we score Durant without a second max player? Can we fill out the rest of the roster with a group of decent 2nd/3rd tire free agents?

Like Randle and Deandre Jordan to provide some pro depth at the big man positions.

I cant see any comparisons with Draymond. Two different type of players offensively and defensively. Draymond has a point guard mentality, can guard all 5 positions... and his basketball IQ has to be top 5 in the NBA.

But i see lots of Randle in Zion. Paring Randle and RJ would be similar to the duke team. Loads of size and strength down low, but the floor will be crowded and limit driving lanes for RJ. I think a stretch 4 would be better for RJ and Mitch.

blkexec wrote:

technomaster wrote:I kind of see Randle as a bit of Draymond Green with more offensive polish and a lot less defense. He passes well enough to help run the offense from the interior. His assist average this past season (3.1) would have been third best on the team and around what you got out of Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Kanter combined!

I’d say his defense is on par or better than what we had last year and playmaking is an order of magnitude better. He’d help Fizdale’s offense work better.

There are some interesting choices to be made by the FO.

Can we score Durant without a second max player? Can we fill out the rest of the roster with a group of decent 2nd/3rd tire free agents?

Like Randle and Deandre Jordan to provide some pro depth at the big man positions.

I cant see any comparisons with Draymond. Two different type of players offensively and defensively. Draymond has a point guard mentality, can guard all 5 positions... and his basketball IQ has to be top 5 in the NBA.

But i see lots of Randle in Zion. Paring Randle and RJ would be similar to the duke team. Loads of size and strength down low, but the floor will be crowded and limit driving lanes for RJ. I think a stretch 4 would be better for RJ and Mitch.

i think you're right but this is a unique opportunity with this money available and this fa class. don't get caught up in the search for perfection. we got guys who are very good young nba players available without us giving up players/picks. we would LOVE all these lottery picks we've taken in the last few years to be where randle/middleton/russell/harris/brogdon are after that many years in the league. go get these "2nd tier" guys!!!!

Marv wrote:

blkexec wrote:

technomaster wrote:I kind of see Randle as a bit of Draymond Green with more offensive polish and a lot less defense. He passes well enough to help run the offense from the interior. His assist average this past season (3.1) would have been third best on the team and around what you got out of Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Kanter combined!

I’d say his defense is on par or better than what we had last year and playmaking is an order of magnitude better. He’d help Fizdale’s offense work better.

There are some interesting choices to be made by the FO.

Can we score Durant without a second max player? Can we fill out the rest of the roster with a group of decent 2nd/3rd tire free agents?

Like Randle and Deandre Jordan to provide some pro depth at the big man positions.

I cant see any comparisons with Draymond. Two different type of players offensively and defensively. Draymond has a point guard mentality, can guard all 5 positions... and his basketball IQ has to be top 5 in the NBA.

But i see lots of Randle in Zion. Paring Randle and RJ would be similar to the duke team. Loads of size and strength down low, but the floor will be crowded and limit driving lanes for RJ. I think a stretch 4 would be better for RJ and Mitch.

i think you're right but this is a unique opportunity with this money available and this fa class. don't get caught up in the search for perfection. we got guys who are very good young nba players available without us giving up players/picks. we would LOVE all these lottery picks we've taken in the last few years to be where randle/middleton/russell/harris/brogdon are after that many years in the league. go get these "2nd tier" guys!!!!

exactly... if we cant get stars it doesnt mean you get scared and avoid good players. Adding two of those guys from your like RJ would be a great offseason

blkexec wrote:

technomaster wrote:I kind of see Randle as a bit of Draymond Green with more offensive polish and a lot less defense. He passes well enough to help run the offense from the interior. His assist average this past season (3.1) would have been third best on the team and around what you got out of Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Kanter combined!

I’d say his defense is on par or better than what we had last year and playmaking is an order of magnitude better. He’d help Fizdale’s offense work better.

There are some interesting choices to be made by the FO.

Can we score Durant without a second max player? Can we fill out the rest of the roster with a group of decent 2nd/3rd tire free agents?

Like Randle and Deandre Jordan to provide some pro depth at the big man positions.

I cant see any comparisons with Draymond. Two different type of players offensively and defensively. Draymond has a point guard mentality, can guard all 5 positions... and his basketball IQ has to be top 5 in the NBA.

But i see lots of Randle in Zion. Paring Randle and RJ would be similar to the duke team. Loads of size and strength down low, but the floor will be crowded and limit driving lanes for RJ. I think a stretch 4 would be better for RJ and Mitch.

We need shooting at the 4, Nikola Mirotic I think could be had for a cheaper deal and will provide more than a lot of guys who will get paid a lot more

Jmpasq wrote:

blkexec wrote:

technomaster wrote:I kind of see Randle as a bit of Draymond Green with more offensive polish and a lot less defense. He passes well enough to help run the offense from the interior. His assist average this past season (3.1) would have been third best on the team and around what you got out of Knox, Mitchell Robinson, and Kanter combined!

I’d say his defense is on par or better than what we had last year and playmaking is an order of magnitude better. He’d help Fizdale’s offense work better.

There are some interesting choices to be made by the FO.

Can we score Durant without a second max player? Can we fill out the rest of the roster with a group of decent 2nd/3rd tire free agents?

Like Randle and Deandre Jordan to provide some pro depth at the big man positions.

I cant see any comparisons with Draymond. Two different type of players offensively and defensively. Draymond has a point guard mentality, can guard all 5 positions... and his basketball IQ has to be top 5 in the NBA.

But i see lots of Randle in Zion. Paring Randle and RJ would be similar to the duke team. Loads of size and strength down low, but the floor will be crowded and limit driving lanes for RJ. I think a stretch 4 would be better for RJ and Mitch.

We need shooting at the 4, Nikola Mirotic I think could be had for a cheaper deal and will provide more than a lot of guys who will get paid a lot more

I think we could slot Knox there if we really needed shooting at the 4

DSJ
Dotson
RJ
Knox
Robinson

Randle only sort of works there because he can act as a primary scorer which is something the roster needs. Keep in mind I still don’t like the spacing between Randle and Robinson but I see the logic that thinks it could work.

newyorknewyork wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:What do you guys think of Bobby Portis as a cheaper alternative? I think he'd fit good next to Mitch.

He’s meant to be a horrific defender

Yeah, but he's also more of a floor space than Randle at this point.

He shot more attempts and increased his % to 34 this past season. He will continue to improve his 3 pt shooting as he is only 24.

So is Portis. I'm not arguing who is better. It's Randle. The question is would you rather have Portis for about $15 mil per, or Randle at about $20 mil. I think I'd rather have Portis.

Good points about Middleton especially.

I think he is more of a 1A than a 2nd tier guy. Not sure about MAx money but you may have to do it to get him.

Getting Middleton and RJ would ssabilize the 2/3 for the next 5 years! Of ocurse, Kawhii is first choice above all else, IMO.

If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

Also- we...have....to...start...adding...players....who....play....defense! Nearly every player mentioned on these boards is a trash defender.

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

Also- we...have....to...start...adding...players....who....play....defense! Nearly every player mentioned on these boards is a trash defender.

part of the reason mitch is always in foul trouble

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

Also- we...have....to...start...adding...players....who....play....defense! Nearly every player mentioned on these boards is a trash defender.

Randle is a trash defender for sure. What he is is a good scorer. High % and a decent ball mover. He's a bucket getter and a rebounder. I love him on the boards. Middleton is one of the league's top 10 defenders, top 5 if you take out the rim protectors. Middleton is a fantastic ball mover and passer. He's a guy who makes others better. He's a very high impact guy and worth making a $$$ commitment too. If he signed him it would immediately help our young guys and help them look better

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

Also- we...have....to...start...adding...players....who....play....defense! Nearly every player mentioned on these boards is a trash defender.

Randle is a trash defender for sure. What he is is a good scorer. High % and a decent ball mover. He's a bucket getter and a rebounder. I love him on the boards. Middleton is one of the league's top 10 defenders, top 5 if you take out the rim protectors. Middleton is a fantastic ball mover and passer. He's a guy who makes others better. He's a very high impact guy and worth making a $$$ commitment too. If he signed him it would immediately help our young guys and help them look better

so I thought about this a bit. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to develop more players but re-sing Jordan and signing Patrick Beverly. Just surround young guys by those two. Defense is really about culture and it really wouldn't be such a bad thing for anyone young and developmental to learn from guys like that. Not really a great offseason but neither of those guys would require a long term deal

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

Also- we...have....to...start...adding...players....who....play....defense! Nearly every player mentioned on these boards is a trash defender.

Randle is a trash defender for sure. What he is is a good scorer. High % and a decent ball mover. He's a bucket getter and a rebounder. I love him on the boards. Middleton is one of the league's top 10 defenders, top 5 if you take out the rim protectors. Middleton is a fantastic ball mover and passer. He's a guy who makes others better. He's a very high impact guy and worth making a $$$ commitment too. If he signed him it would immediately help our young guys and help them look better

so I thought about this a bit. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to develop more players but re-sing Jordan and signing Patrick Beverly. Just surround young guys by those two. Defense is really about culture and it really wouldn't be such a bad thing for anyone young and developmental to learn from guys like that. Not really a great offseason but neither of those guys would require a long term deal

I like this. Patrick Beverly would bring that fire! Teach these young dudes how to play with intensity on defense. Gimme DJ and bring Vonleh back. I like Randle but Noah gave us good defense and rebounding at a much lower price tag. His shot improved as well. I'd like to see if he can build on what he did last season...

MooK wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

Also- we...have....to...start...adding...players....who....play....defense! Nearly every player mentioned on these boards is a trash defender.

Randle is a trash defender for sure. What he is is a good scorer. High % and a decent ball mover. He's a bucket getter and a rebounder. I love him on the boards. Middleton is one of the league's top 10 defenders, top 5 if you take out the rim protectors. Middleton is a fantastic ball mover and passer. He's a guy who makes others better. He's a very high impact guy and worth making a $$$ commitment too. If he signed him it would immediately help our young guys and help them look better

so I thought about this a bit. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to develop more players but re-sing Jordan and signing Patrick Beverly. Just surround young guys by those two. Defense is really about culture and it really wouldn't be such a bad thing for anyone young and developmental to learn from guys like that. Not really a great offseason but neither of those guys would require a long term deal

I like this. Patrick Beverly would bring that fire! Teach these young dudes how to play with intensity on defense. Gimme DJ and bring Vonleh back. I like Randle but Noah gave us good defense and rebounding at a much lower price tag. His shot improved as well. I'd like to see if he can build on what he did last season...

Dont mind the idea of Beverly but one of DSJr/Frank would need to be moved and I like Kadeem Allen on the roster.

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

I'm in love with flexible. We can add (overpriced) talent and improve and get picks. E.g., grab Dennis or Roberson from OKC. Our talent improves and we get a pick. Much better strategy IMO

We are in a salary-capped league. That means you need to focus on value so you end up with more talent for the same price as everyone else. The only reliable bargains are drafting and getting max guys playing above their max salary (e.g., Lebron, KD, Kawhi etc.)

We also should be priortizing people who are professionals. Getting a couple extra wins won't matter much; getting guys who will show our young guys the right way has a premium

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:If we can't get max guys who play above max value, we should be focusing on draft alone OR WORST CASE short term deals

C'mon guys you know better. If we get some FAs to merely improve to .500 ball (which itself will be hard need +24) we'll be stuck with iffy draft picks. If we don't get to .500 then why bother with the FA and handcuffing our flexibility

We need to stay disciplined and avoid the temptation of mere improvement which really risks mediocrity.

you dont look at predicting wins and losses. You look at whether it makes sense to add guys and what that commitment will look like.
1) there should be no fear of slow progress hurting us in the draft. If we learned anything from this last draft its that tanking has huge perils. Of ALL the bottom teams we were the only ones who stayed high.

Middleton is a top 20 player, or very close. Randle could be a great short term look (2 years $40mm should get him). This is how you get better. You dont go from bad to good by staying flexible. You do it by adding talent.

I know folks differ wildly on this but people fall too in love with flexible.

Also- we...have....to...start...adding...players....who....play....defense! Nearly every player mentioned on these boards is a trash defender.

Randle is a trash defender for sure. What he is is a good scorer. High % and a decent ball mover. He's a bucket getter and a rebounder. I love him on the boards. Middleton is one of the league's top 10 defenders, top 5 if you take out the rim protectors. Middleton is a fantastic ball mover and passer. He's a guy who makes others better. He's a very high impact guy and worth making a $$$ commitment too. If he signed him it would immediately help our young guys and help them look better

so I thought about this a bit. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to develop more players but re-sing Jordan and signing Patrick Beverly. Just surround young guys by those two. Defense is really about culture and it really wouldn't be such a bad thing for anyone young and developmental to learn from guys like that. Not really a great offseason but neither of those guys would require a long term deal

the problem with Beverly is we have Frank and DSjr under cheap deals for 2 more years and Beverly is shitty PG. He's a great defender but he's just not a very good floor general and gets hurt a lot. I get the idea and its not a bad one at all.. it just dont see it helping us enough.

Part of Randle's attraction (for me) is balance. We are looking at this roster:
PG DSjr, Frank
SG Dotson, Trier, Jenkins, Garrett
SF RJ
PF Knox
C Mitch, Luke

I am assuming we resign Kornet for peanuts. However we are incredibly weak at the Forwards and rebounding. RJ/Knox are getting destroyed at the 3/4 next year. We need some meat there and Randle would really fit a need, especially on the boards.

Certainly FA can alter things wildly, but if its an incremental build I do hope we have more structure and a slightly balanced roster