Off Topic · OT: fairy tales racism? (page 1)
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The original movie had a cast speaking the King's English with a bunch of whites as actors (in a movie about Africa), with the exception of the hyenas. For anyone that remembers the movie, the lion cubs get lost in the elephant graveyard/ghetto, and they bump into the hyenas that are shaded darker than hyenas in real life, and they are the only characters in the movie that use slang. The only hyenas with speaking parts were Whoopi and Cheech. That just seems like 'unintentional' or an example of systemic racism, where it is racist but no one realized it during production.
I think it would be easy to dismiss this, but it appears that Disney bought it. I haven't seen the remake but apparently the movie is completely faithful to the original, with the lone exception of those scenes
I do not think this is intentional, rather mindless.
SupremeCommander wrote:I used to think that racism was just in someone's heart. But it isn't, it is definitely societal and definitely passed onto kids. A great example I just read about was the Lion King, which I was completely oblivious to until last week and watched like a bajillion times as a kid. That was a popular movie to show when a teacher was sick.The original movie had a cast speaking the King's English with a bunch of whites as actors (in a movie about Africa), with the exception of the hyenas. For anyone that remembers the movie, the lion cubs get lost in the elephant graveyard/ghetto, and they bump into the hyenas that are shaded darker than hyenas in real life, and they are the only characters in the movie that use slang. The only hyenas with speaking parts were Whoopi and Cheech. That just seems like 'unintentional' or an example of systemic racism, where it is racist but no one realized it during production.
I think it would be easy to dismiss this, but it appears that Disney bought it. I haven't seen the remake but apparently the movie is completely faithful to the original, with the lone exception of those scenes
There is no difference with white actors playing African characters and black people playing vikings... for people who are not racist.
I never see any racial context in anything until someone is pointing it to me.
Probably the result of me growing up in country with all population being one race.
Of course US is multiracial society so it is different.
For first generation of immigrants coming form uni-racial countries this context in not naturally coming up.
SupremeCommander wrote:I used to think that racism was just in someone's heart. But it isn't, it is definitely societal and definitely passed onto kids. A great example I just read about was the Lion King, which I was completely oblivious to until last week and watched like a bajillion times as a kid. That was a popular movie to show when a teacher was sick.The original movie had a cast speaking the King's English with a bunch of whites as actors (in a movie about Africa), with the exception of the hyenas. For anyone that remembers the movie, the lion cubs get lost in the elephant graveyard/ghetto, and they bump into the hyenas that are shaded darker than hyenas in real life, and they are the only characters in the movie that use slang. The only hyenas with speaking parts were Whoopi and Cheech. That just seems like 'unintentional' or an example of systemic racism, where it is racist but no one realized it during production.
I think it would be easy to dismiss this, but it appears that Disney bought it. I haven't seen the remake but apparently the movie is completely faithful to the original, with the lone exception of those scenes
I think this is a reach. James Earl Jones played Mufasa and if I remember Rafiki was played by Guillanme or however you spell it. I think both Whoopi and Cheech were perfect for the hyena parts as were many of the others.
This is proof that this soil was built on racism and systematic oppression. If you want to be a dominate race, you try to install subtleties into a system like a leaking faucet, and hope nobody catches on to the larger agenda.
It's like planting flowers in bad soil for 400 years. The next generation in year 401 may not be racist or as racist as the older generations, but they still hold the same responsibility leading the fight to remove racial under tones.
What's interesting is how they use color to try and demoralize the minority. Which is really the majority....but they did a DNA study in Brazil and found out some of the brown people had more European DNA and the fair skin people had more african DNA than some of the dark skin people. This division of color makes the old generation look dumb. If only they knew color gives no indication of a place of origin, belief or even race. If they had DNA technology back then, today would be a different world. It's like watching two different color ants fight eachother. Eventhough they are both ants.
It's time to graduate from this denial phase and push forward to a solution towards a bigger problem of hidden systematic oppression. The good news about trump is hes unearthing the ugliness people have tried to deny or hide for years.
knickslions wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:I used to think that racism was just in someone's heart. But it isn't, it is definitely societal and definitely passed onto kids. A great example I just read about was the Lion King, which I was completely oblivious to until last week and watched like a bajillion times as a kid. That was a popular movie to show when a teacher was sick.The original movie had a cast speaking the King's English with a bunch of whites as actors (in a movie about Africa), with the exception of the hyenas. For anyone that remembers the movie, the lion cubs get lost in the elephant graveyard/ghetto, and they bump into the hyenas that are shaded darker than hyenas in real life, and they are the only characters in the movie that use slang. The only hyenas with speaking parts were Whoopi and Cheech. That just seems like 'unintentional' or an example of systemic racism, where it is racist but no one realized it during production.
I think it would be easy to dismiss this, but it appears that Disney bought it. I haven't seen the remake but apparently the movie is completely faithful to the original, with the lone exception of those scenes
I think this is a reach. James Earl Jones played Mufasa and if I remember Rafiki was played by Guillanme or however you spell it. I think both Whoopi and Cheech were perfect for the hyena parts as were many of the others.
you guys can disagree, but Disney agreed with the stance. read the below article and think about it instead of dismissing it immediately because its more convenient for you
In case you went 25 years without a spoiler: there was a stampede. Mufasa didn’t make it out.Most scenes in the newly released “live-action” Lion King are direct re-creations from the original 1994 animated film—from the heartbreaking death of the king right down to smaller moments, like Scar’s terrorizing of a mouse in the opening act. Some critics have called it a shot-for-shot remake.
But one aspect that is decidedly not a carbon copy of the animated version? The hyenas.
The Lion King was met with near universal praise when it came out 25 years ago. It grossed 312.9 million in the U.S. It won two Oscars. But an argument nevertheless emerged concerning the two main hyenas, Shenzi and Banzai—namely, that they were racist characters. In an overwhelmingly white voice cast (for a movie about Africa), they were brought to life by minority actors, Whoopi Goldberg and Cheech Marin, who played them as low-life gangsters, reprobates who speak in slang and live tucked away in a shadowy corner of the Pride Lands—the wrong side of the tracks.
Critics said their accents instantly demonized the characters. Academic pieces blasted the hyenas’ “street” vernacular. Some articles pointed out how the clever, cunning Scar—who speaks with white British actor Jeremy Irons’ King’s English—subjugates the destitute hyenas as his servants. “The good-for-nothing hyenas are urban blacks,” wrote a Harvard psychologist. A New York Times journalist dubbed them “Sambo-ish.” When asked about the controversy in 1994, Disney spokeswoman Terry Press dismissed it. “It’s a story. It’s fiction,” she said. “These people need to get a life.”
Disney didn’t reply to my request to comment on the new hyenas, but judging from how different they are in the new version, it would appear someone at the studio took the controversy seriously enough to not repeat the same mistakes. This time around, the only white voice actors in the cast play periphery, comic characters: John Oliver as Zazu, Seth Rogen as Pumbaa, and Billy Eichner as Timon. It’s Donald Glover and Beyoncé (not Matthew Broderick and Moira Kelly) who lead the pack as leonine nobility.
Perhaps suggesting more about my subpar wokeness than anything else, I hadn’t thought of the problematic nature even two weeks ago, let alone when I first saw the animated film as a 6-year-old–even though I’d considered the gamut of other Lion King themes and theories. I’d long ago learned about its roots in Hamlet (the “Circle of Life” as the Elizabethan natural order; Simba’s hubris in “I Just Can’t Wait to Be King”; his hesitation in avenging his father’s death because, you know, “Hakuna Matata”). I’d grasped the hidden motifs, like the hyenas marching as malevolently as Nazis to Scar’s Hitler in a scene inspired by The Triumph of the Will.But I’d never considered the notion of racism. I spoke to Dan Hassler-Forest, a professor of cultural studies at the University of Utrecht, who recently penned a piece in The Washington Post that argues that The Lion King as a fascistic story. (“Because I’m a horrible person who’s incapable of experiencing joy” is how he tweeted out the op-ed.) He weighed in on hyenagate, agreeing that the critters are coded as ethnic and social minorities, not only in their accents but also in their skin color, which he points out is darker than the hides of real hyenas.
“Simba and Nala’s first encounter with them is staged in a way that is familiar to most viewers in which naïve, innocent white kids stray into the ‘bad’ part of town and encounter dangerous gang members,” Hassler-Forest said. (Young Simba was voiced by Jonathan Taylor Thomas, a white actor, but young Nala was played by an African-American actress, Niketa Calame.)
He added: “The three prominent hyenas fit neatly into notoriously stereotypical depictions of black, Hispanic, and mentally disabled depictions of the lower-class residents of ghettos.”That last part, by the way, refers to Ed. Poor Ed. Hyena number three is the only one that was voiced by a white actor, Jim Cummings—although “voiced” is a stretch. Ed doesn’t talk but rather cackles and snickers and hysterically spasms. Six-year-old me did not make the association with a mental illness like Tourette’s, and saw him merely as the essence of the laughing hyena.
This year, Ed is now Azizi, which is Swahili for “precious.” He’s voiced by Eric André. Banzai, the middle hyena with a questionable Japanese name originally voiced by Marin, is now Kamari, meaning “moonlight,” and is voiced by Keegan Michael-Key. Azizi not only talks in this version, but he’s almost on a smarts par with Kamari. These creatures are still a comedic force, but they are not the butt of an ongoing racist joke.
The comedy stems from the sharpness of their dialogue but not the fast talk we remember from the animated film. There’s no “cub sandwich” or “cactus butt.” They’re too shrewd to even follow a grieving Simba into the cactus bush, which led to slapstick laughs at their expense in 1994. Physical comedy is practically nonexistent. We don’t even get the birdy boiler.
While he didn’t directly mention any of the controversy in an appearance earlier this month on The Tonight Show, Key joked to Jimmy Fallon that he’d wanted to secure his role as the middle hyena and not the guffawing Ed. “I’m a black man,” he said. “I’m trying not to play crack addicts anymore. I’m trying to uplift.”
Of course, Disney has a history of unequivocally racist content. In Dumbo, there’s a crow that’s actually named Jim Crow. The Song of the South presents a rosy, harmonious portrait of the Antebellum South. Even 1992’s Aladdin was deemed racist—”but hey, it’s Disney,” sarcastically shrugged The Times.Disney has admitted to these past offenses but has never confessed to racism in The Lion King. Perhaps a quiet hyena update was shrewder, so as not to tarnish the reputation of what is, to my generation (and especially to superfan Chance the Rapper), a cherished and beloved tale and which still holds up as a personal all-time favorite film.
The new cast and crew has acknowledged the hyena revision, but diplomatically, of course, chalking it up to the newly realistic nature of the animals. In Disney press notes for the new film, director Jon Favreau is quoted as saying, “The hyenas had to change a lot. Because of the photo-real nature of the film, having too broad of a comedic take on the hyenas felt inconsistent with what we were doing.”While Kamari and Azizi still provide the laughs, the overwhelming effect is one of danger. “We wanted to raise the stakes with Shenzi,” Favreau said. The third hyena, Shenzi, is now played by Florence Kasumba, who has described her character as a threatening force. That’s true: Unlike Goldberg’s Shenzi, the source of much of the idiomatic humor, she’s menacing and even has her own face-off with Nala in the fiery climax, while Simba and Scar are locking claws. “Those hyenas were funny,” she says in the press notes. “These hyenas are dangerous.”
Favreau also explains in the Disney materials that he decided to tone down Scar’s villainous number, “Be Prepared,” because of the heightened realism of his movie. There’s no marching, for starters. Jorgen Klubien, an animator who created the scene in the 1994 movie that recalls Triumph of the Will, guessed the changes were made to eliminate the caricatures. As for rethinking it because of the racist assertions? “Nonsense,” he argued.
There’s a noticeably different power balance, too. These hyenas are wilier and warier of Scar. This time, Shenzi faces Scar early on, threatening to eat him. They’re presented to the audience as Scar’s equals. During the number, the hyenas are literally staged on the same level as the great villain until the very end, after he’s won their allegiance, when he climbs the precipice.
Rather than belittle them, he panders. “My vision is clear and wide-ranging / And even encompasses you,” the subdued song goes. That’s a far cry from—and truthfully more monotonous than—the delightfully evil original number, where he intimidates, calling them “crude” and “thick,” scoffing with his gravelly vocals that “It’s clear from your vacant expressions / The lights are not all on upstairs.” Their “powers of retention,” he sings gruffly, “are as wet as a warthog’s backside.”
For Hassler-Forest, the professor, the hyena clean-up is ineffective. The class distinction—which is his real qualm with the 1994 movie—still remains. In the new version, he argues, the hyenas stay as “societal outcasts who contribute nothing and feed off the wealth created by others.”
As for the racism, Favreau did paw away any signs of lingering stereotypes, even if that improvement comes at the expense of dulling the hyenas down. Sure, they provide some of the rare comedic relief in the film, but it’s just not enough. Once laughed at, the hyenas are laughing now.
Sadly, we’re not.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90379067/critics-said-the-first-lion-kings-hyenas-were-problematic-disney-revamped-them
In any event, I had a college professor who when discussing civil rights legislation and the Supreme Court decisions they entailed, stated the axiom that rats breed more rats.
Racism and bigotry change when people change, not when corporate types force feed the culture "Princess and the Frog". You want to end racism? Ask Whoopie Goldberg and Cheech Marin why they accepted those voice roles in the first place?
Racism ends and has no power when one of the things done is to stop the neverending victim mentality. Nobody's dismissing anything of consequence. But if you think having Steve Martin and Martin Short play hyenas is going to do anything to stop racism, you're kidding yourself.
So if only black actors are chosen to play all the lead, non-stupid, heavy roles, isn't that a form of racism?
By the way, in several studies of the sociological effects of the Lion King, Mufasa is seen as a representation of god. How come they couldn't get a white actor to play that voice role?
jrodmc wrote:As was mentioned above, interesting you left out the voice of Mufasa.In any event, I had a college professor who when discussing civil rights legislation and the Supreme Court decisions they entailed, stated the axiom that rats breed more rats.
Racism and bigotry change when people change, not when corporate types force feed the culture "Princess and the Frog". You want to end racism? Ask Whoopie Goldberg and Cheech Marin why they accepted those voice roles in the first place?
Racism ends and has no power when one of the things done is to stop the neverending victim mentality. Nobody's dismissing anything of consequence. But if you think having Steve Martin and Martin Short play hyenas is going to do anything to stop racism, you're kidding yourself.
So if only black actors are chosen to play all the lead, non-stupid, heavy roles, isn't that a form of racism?
By the way, in several studies of the sociological effects of the Lion King, Mufasa is seen as a representation of god. How come they couldn't get a white actor to play that voice role?
he was speaking the King's English... he was not found in 'the ghetto'... to add: Mufasa is the only black dude (if you want to look at it so narrowly) in the good part of the jungle, the bad part of the jungle is racially coded
as for the second part, I think at best you lack empathy at worst... btw, I'm a white guy and all I'm doing is pointing to academic studies and the fact that Disney decided to change one and only one part of the story. then you trumpet 'victim card'. lol whatever. I bet that maga hat looks great on you
SupremeCommander wrote:jrodmc wrote:As was mentioned above, interesting you left out the voice of Mufasa.In any event, I had a college professor who when discussing civil rights legislation and the Supreme Court decisions they entailed, stated the axiom that rats breed more rats.
Racism and bigotry change when people change, not when corporate types force feed the culture "Princess and the Frog". You want to end racism? Ask Whoopie Goldberg and Cheech Marin why they accepted those voice roles in the first place?
Racism ends and has no power when one of the things done is to stop the neverending victim mentality. Nobody's dismissing anything of consequence. But if you think having Steve Martin and Martin Short play hyenas is going to do anything to stop racism, you're kidding yourself.
So if only black actors are chosen to play all the lead, non-stupid, heavy roles, isn't that a form of racism?
By the way, in several studies of the sociological effects of the Lion King, Mufasa is seen as a representation of god. How come they couldn't get a white actor to play that voice role?
he was speaking the King's English... he was not found in 'the ghetto'... to add: Mufasa is the only black dude (if you want to look at it so narrowly) in the good part of the jungle, the bad part of the jungle is racially coded
as for the second part, I think at best you lack empathy at worst... btw, I'm a white guy and all I'm doing is pointing to academic studies and the fact that Disney decided to change one and only one part of the story. then you trumpet 'victim card'. lol whatever. I bet that maga hat looks great on you
Again, I was trying not to be overly obvious on something that was posted previously, but Rafiki wasn't speaking the King's English, was he? He's pretty much the director of the "good part" of the jungle. Or is a Jamaican accent also considered part of the white supremacist infrastructure? And Disney decides to change a part of the story. Whoop de dam do. Did it make you feel better, stop racism in your neighborhood? One small step towards a much, much better world via computer animation? By the way, is James Earl Jones speaking the "King's English" some sort of white supremacist tool in your world? He spoke the same way portraying Vernon Johns. I doubt anyone considered that performance on the basis of his use of the "King's English". Give me a FB.
Thanks for the typical ad hominem, non-point counter argument.
And I'm a white guy too, not that it matters. To me, at least. My mom was black, and she died telling me and her grandchildren that the only day color won't matter, is when it stops mattering to the ignorant. But I'll work on my empathy anyway.
And I voted for Alan Keyes in the last three elections, thanks. Your standardized liberal Trump passive/aggressiveness is very encouraging. Be sure to pass that along to your kids.
jrodmc wrote:SupremeCommander wrote:jrodmc wrote:As was mentioned above, interesting you left out the voice of Mufasa.In any event, I had a college professor who when discussing civil rights legislation and the Supreme Court decisions they entailed, stated the axiom that rats breed more rats.
Racism and bigotry change when people change, not when corporate types force feed the culture "Princess and the Frog". You want to end racism? Ask Whoopie Goldberg and Cheech Marin why they accepted those voice roles in the first place?
Racism ends and has no power when one of the things done is to stop the neverending victim mentality. Nobody's dismissing anything of consequence. But if you think having Steve Martin and Martin Short play hyenas is going to do anything to stop racism, you're kidding yourself.
So if only black actors are chosen to play all the lead, non-stupid, heavy roles, isn't that a form of racism?
By the way, in several studies of the sociological effects of the Lion King, Mufasa is seen as a representation of god. How come they couldn't get a white actor to play that voice role?
he was speaking the King's English... he was not found in 'the ghetto'... to add: Mufasa is the only black dude (if you want to look at it so narrowly) in the good part of the jungle, the bad part of the jungle is racially coded
as for the second part, I think at best you lack empathy at worst... btw, I'm a white guy and all I'm doing is pointing to academic studies and the fact that Disney decided to change one and only one part of the story. then you trumpet 'victim card'. lol whatever. I bet that maga hat looks great on you
Again, I was trying not to be overly obvious on something that was posted previously, but Rafiki wasn't speaking the King's English, was he? He's pretty much the director of the "good part" of the jungle. Or is a Jamaican accent also considered part of the white supremacist infrastructure? And Disney decides to change a part of the story. Whoop de dam do. Did it make you feel better, stop racism in your neighborhood? One small step towards a much, much better world via computer animation? By the way, is James Earl Jones speaking the "King's English" some sort of white supremacist tool in your world? He spoke the same way portraying Vernon Johns. I doubt anyone considered that performance on the basis of his use of the "King's English". Give me a FB.
Thanks for the typical ad hominem, non-point counter argument.
And I'm a white guy too, not that it matters. To me, at least. My mom was black, and she died telling me and her grandchildren that the only day color won't matter, is when it stops mattering to the ignorant. But I'll work on my empathy anyway.
And I voted for Alan Keyes in the last three elections, thanks. Your standardized liberal Trump passive/aggressiveness is very encouraging. Be sure to pass that along to your kids.
Apparently at least certain types of ad homimem attacks are just as effective at convincing othersas reason and research. So Supremecommander is probably just being efficient by employing the former.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0192025
jrodmc wrote:Yes, of course. Because public impact is truly more important than the credibility of actual facts or rational discourse!
Unfortunately I've found that in todays world, especially on forums like this that's the rule of the land. You paint the other guy as a racist, ignoramus or something else you don't have to defend your own weak argument or disprove his.