Knicks · Lonely ScoreBot Thread: Clash of the tank titans tonight (page 6)
newyorknewyork wrote:82pts-33rebs-11ast combined from Morris, Randle, Barrett. Thats pretty epic
Wouldn't be surprised if Elfrid brought this out in the guys. Will have to watch this closely
martin wrote:Chandler wrote:Frank had a few good moments outweighed by a brutal stretch of lazy passes/turnovers.Elfrid has similarly been inconsistent in some games.
Hopefully by simplifying things (a clear theme with Miller) both with settle in and contribute consistently
I liked Wally as a color man
For me, Elfrid has been inconsistent but he is at a different level as a PG then either Frank or DSJr, and it's a world of difference.
I think the team has him on a minutes restriction so far and you can tell he was completely winded at end of game on only 30 minutes (and it was more than that OT run where everyone got winded, he was almost passing out). Elfrid can't hurt himself again, Frank/DSJr are just god awful in their roles. I think we will see him start once he is "cleared" for lots of minutes.
And now Frank.... dude has got to get his head out of his ass. I think Wally hit it on the head when he described Frank as Mechanical in his playing style. Frank is just going through the motions instead of being an instinctive PG. Many times over in the year (and quick frankly I think I've seen DSJr do this too) he passed the ball just after crossing half court to a trailing big without looking to see if that big also crossed half court. There is literally NO REASON to do this; no PG with a hint of mental acuity does this. Like WTF
Obviously the FO needs to send Frank to the GLeague to sort this out. Or the Euroleague.
Especially after that 3rd quarter performance where Frank mechanically threw the ball away for no good reason 4 times, if he doesn't 180 that ship I think he'd better rethink his NBA career as a PG
Frank had a good couple of minutes last night and then turned into a different creature
Maybe the G-league is what he needs, or maybe he just needs more of MIller
One of my criticisms of Fizz is he put too much emphasis on a player's weaknesses and didn't utilize their strengths to the max. For example, this is why i think DSJ always takes these ill-advised bombs rather than attack the hoop (or he could be injured).
IN Frank's case, I think he has been thinking of too many things. Miller just needs to keep things simple, and repeat the attack, downhill mantra. Hopefully Frank gets it. If he doesn't it's his fault and as much as I like him it could be curtains for him. You need to be able to drive or shoot and hopefully both. Maybe he can carve out a niche like Patrick Beverly
I hope this team also develops a sense of just focusing on the players and that lots of players can contribute without being Lebron or D.Wade. There are a lot of guys in the league who are good enough at one thing that they can contribute to winning if used properly
martin wrote:Chandler wrote:Frank had a few good moments outweighed by a brutal stretch of lazy passes/turnovers.Elfrid has similarly been inconsistent in some games.
Hopefully by simplifying things (a clear theme with Miller) both with settle in and contribute consistently
I liked Wally as a color man
For me, Elfrid has been inconsistent but he is at a different level as a PG then either Frank or DSJr, and it's a world of difference.
I think the team has him on a minutes restriction so far and you can tell he was completely winded at end of game on only 30 minutes (and it was more than that OT run where everyone got winded, he was almost passing out). Elfrid can't hurt himself again, Frank/DSJr are just god awful in their roles. I think we will see him start once he is "cleared" for lots of minutes.
And now Frank.... dude has got to get his head out of his ass. I think Wally hit it on the head when he described Frank as Mechanical in his playing style. Frank is just going through the motions instead of being an instinctive PG. Many times over in the year (and quick frankly I think I've seen DSJr do this too) he passed the ball just after crossing half court to a trailing big without looking to see if that big also crossed half court. There is literally NO REASON to do this; no PG with a hint of mental acuity does this. Like WTF
Obviously the FO needs to send Frank to the GLeague to sort this out. Or the Euroleague.Especially after that 3rd quarter performance where Frank mechanically threw the ball away for no good reason 4 times, if he doesn't 180 that ship I think he'd better rethink his NBA career as a PG
Really wish that Frank had spent part of his summers playing pick up ball, Rucker, Drew League. Was clear from the start that Frank lacked the ability to create. As far as I know, he only practiced with familiar faces. A mechanical playing style is another way of saying, playing it safe. That would sum up Frank's NBA career. Cant be a "dog" while playing it safe.
I have seen some improvement in Frank's ability to get to the rim, but he isnt making enough use of it. Dont believe G-League will help. Could easily see him coming back, having a few good scoring games, then drifting back to passive play. If Frank makes a permanent change in the way he approaches the game, the only way I see that happening is the wake up call of being traded.
Whats frustrating about Smith jr. that he is a much more skilled player than Frank, but he's also been too passive. You're right about DSJr giving up the ball too early. Doubt the Magic would go for it, but I would trade DSJr for Fultz. Fultz doesnt wait for a fastbreak to take it strong to the rim. He sees an opportunity, he takes it.
martin wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:82pts-33rebs-11ast combined from Morris, Randle, Barrett. Thats pretty epicWouldn't be surprised if Elfrid brought this out in the guys. Will have to watch this closely
If you watched 4Q the difference was crazy. I mean there was clear ISO involved but the shots weren't forced.
TPercy wrote:I really agree about the mechanical aspect of Frank's game watching him vs Payton play was a really big difference in a way that makes me think he's still got a couple years to go. Even when he's playing well offensively he's way too structured and predictable. If he wants to cut it at an NBA level wheres he's a plus, he's gotta be more natural.
Payton has over a year's more NBA experience than Frankie. And, yes, both will be much improved with another year or two under their belts. They are just kids.
Szczerbiak just doesn't like Ntilikina at all. When Frankie made mistakes it was drama queen, end of the franchise terrible. When Peyton made the same mistakes, "Jezus, Kerr is a genus".
Kerr's team played like valkaries that second half and gave Frankie and Elf all they could handle.
But.
With Miller at the helm.
We won.
Sambakick wrote:Frank is what a PG with no court vision/low BBall IQ looks like.
Frank had a bad game. It happens and you'd know that if you weren't an obvious hater.
fwk00 wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank is what a PG with no court vision/low BBall IQ looks like.Frank had a bad game. It happens and you'd know that if you weren't an obvious hater.
Frank's good games look like bad games. I was a Frank booster ... until this season. I made the claim that the organization did Frank wrong his first couple seasons. But now I can see that he just doesn't have what a guy picked that high should have. He is like one of Dorothy's companions in the wizard of oz looking for a quality that he doesn't possess.
Sambakick wrote:you must really hate Dennis Smithfwk00 wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank is what a PG with no court vision/low BBall IQ looks like.Frank had a bad game. It happens and you'd know that if you weren't an obvious hater.
Frank's good games look like bad games. I was a Frank booster ... until this season. I made the claim that the organization did Frank wrong his first couple seasons. But now I can see that he just doesn't have what a guy picked that high should have. He is like one of Dorothy's companions in the wizard of oz looking for a quality that he doesn't possess.
fishmike wrote:Sambakick wrote:you must really hate Dennis Smithfwk00 wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank is what a PG with no court vision/low BBall IQ looks like.Frank had a bad game. It happens and you'd know that if you weren't an obvious hater.
Frank's good games look like bad games. I was a Frank booster ... until this season. I made the claim that the organization did Frank wrong his first couple seasons. But now I can see that he just doesn't have what a guy picked that high should have. He is like one of Dorothy's companions in the wizard of oz looking for a quality that he doesn't possess.
I like Payton. I don't like Frank or DSJ. I think we are still looking for our long-term solution at PG.
Sambakick wrote:Frank has shown he knows how to play right but never does. DS has shown he has no clue what good play but once in a blue moon you get lucky. Payton is the best choice of a broken group and his best skills are utterly average by all NBA standards.fishmike wrote:Sambakick wrote:you must really hate Dennis Smithfwk00 wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank is what a PG with no court vision/low BBall IQ looks like.Frank had a bad game. It happens and you'd know that if you weren't an obvious hater.
Frank's good games look like bad games. I was a Frank booster ... until this season. I made the claim that the organization did Frank wrong his first couple seasons. But now I can see that he just doesn't have what a guy picked that high should have. He is like one of Dorothy's companions in the wizard of oz looking for a quality that he doesn't possess.I like Payton. I don't like Frank or DSJ. I think we are still looking for our long-term solution at PG.
Is there any doubt the *hope* when Elf was signed that he provide stable PG play while we wait for DS or Frank to supplant him? Problem is all have been abysmal or hurt
fishmike wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank has shown he knows how to play right but never does. DS has shown he has no clue what good play but once in a blue moon you get lucky. Payton is the best choice of a broken group and his best skills are utterly average by all NBA standards.fishmike wrote:Sambakick wrote:you must really hate Dennis Smithfwk00 wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank is what a PG with no court vision/low BBall IQ looks like.Frank had a bad game. It happens and you'd know that if you weren't an obvious hater.
Frank's good games look like bad games. I was a Frank booster ... until this season. I made the claim that the organization did Frank wrong his first couple seasons. But now I can see that he just doesn't have what a guy picked that high should have. He is like one of Dorothy's companions in the wizard of oz looking for a quality that he doesn't possess.I like Payton. I don't like Frank or DSJ. I think we are still looking for our long-term solution at PG.
Is there any doubt the *hope* when Elf was signed that he provide stable PG play while we wait for DS or Frank to supplant him? Problem is all have been abysmal or hurt
What Frank lacks is from the shoulders up. He has good measurables. His shot isn't broken. He can handle a little bit, doesn't usually turn the ball over (except when he does, he does in bunches). He just is missing something instinctual required of a modern NBA PG others have come up with their reasons for why he plays tentative/mechanical -- 'plays the right way' 'didn't play AAU' whatever the reason for his extreme reticence is, it's great if you're a foreign exchange student, it's not for the PG spot in the NBA. That doesn't mean he can't be an NBA player. It just means he was picked too damn high. I hear "runs the offense" for Frank and i'm like... is that how low our standards have fallen? And if he is running the offense where are the assists? Why is he passing the ball to a big at halfcourt like it's hot potato? It's a mental brainlock with Frank. Only he can break that lock and i'm not holding my breath it happens in the next couple seasons.
What Dennis lacks is also from the shoulders up,in a different way from frank. He looks every bit the part of a lotto pick. Great athleticism, handles, and also a shot that's not broken. But he can't defend and can be selfish. Is he still hurt/rusty? Is his head not in the game? Has he lost his mojo?
Payton gets the job with the two sweetest words in the english language: BY DEFAULT
Sambakick wrote:fishmike wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank has shown he knows how to play right but never does. DS has shown he has no clue what good play but once in a blue moon you get lucky. Payton is the best choice of a broken group and his best skills are utterly average by all NBA standards.fishmike wrote:Sambakick wrote:you must really hate Dennis Smithfwk00 wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank is what a PG with no court vision/low BBall IQ looks like.Frank had a bad game. It happens and you'd know that if you weren't an obvious hater.
Frank's good games look like bad games. I was a Frank booster ... until this season. I made the claim that the organization did Frank wrong his first couple seasons. But now I can see that he just doesn't have what a guy picked that high should have. He is like one of Dorothy's companions in the wizard of oz looking for a quality that he doesn't possess.I like Payton. I don't like Frank or DSJ. I think we are still looking for our long-term solution at PG.
Is there any doubt the *hope* when Elf was signed that he provide stable PG play while we wait for DS or Frank to supplant him? Problem is all have been abysmal or hurt
What Frank lacks is from the shoulders up. He has good measurables. His shot isn't broken. He can handle a little bit, doesn't usually turn the ball over (except when he does, he does in bunches). He just is missing something instinctual required of a modern NBA PG others have come up with their reasons for why he plays tentative/mechanical -- 'plays the right way' 'didn't play AAU' whatever the reason for his extreme reticence is, it's great if you're a foreign exchange student, it's not for the PG spot in the NBA. That doesn't mean he can't be an NBA player. It just means he was picked too damn high. I hear "runs the offense" for Frank and i'm like... is that how low our standards have fallen? And if he is running the offense where are the assists? Why is he passing the ball to a big at halfcourt like it's hot potato? It's a mental brainlock with Frank. Only he can break that lock and i'm not holding my breath it happens in the next couple seasons.
What Dennis lacks is also from the shoulders up,in a different way from frank. He looks every bit the part of a lotto pick. Great athleticism, handles, and also a shot that's not broken. But he can't defend and can be selfish. Is he still hurt/rusty? Is his head not in the game? Has he lost his mojo?
Payton gets the job with the two sweetest words in the english language: BY DEFAULT
There's fair and legitimate criticism and then there isn't.
Instead of thrilling in the fact that we have a young PG who defends as well as any, has just turned 21, and has all of the intangible character qualities that point to a respectable and hopefully illustrious career, you measure Ntilikina by the lottery position he was drafted in as if those positions have ever or ever will be meaningful.
In some imaginary alternate universe or GMs will never make worse picks than others, will never make a bad trade, and will always get the benefit of the doubt with referees.
But in this world, Frankie is ours, he ain't perfect, and many of us see the point guard of the future working his way into that role. He ain't there yet. And he *is* in a funk. but funks don't last forever.
Likewise Peyton is a yaer or two ahead of Frankie and also learning and developing - that's two fine prospects who will eventually find their way.
You seem to think DSJ "looks" like a lottery pick. To me he looks like a belligerent bust more often than not. He's not a PG with a future in the NBA - maybe Europe, maybe China, and after all that maybe the NBA when he outgrows the attitude if that's all it is.
fwk00 wrote:Sambakick wrote:fishmike wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank has shown he knows how to play right but never does. DS has shown he has no clue what good play but once in a blue moon you get lucky. Payton is the best choice of a broken group and his best skills are utterly average by all NBA standards.fishmike wrote:Sambakick wrote:you must really hate Dennis Smithfwk00 wrote:Sambakick wrote:Frank is what a PG with no court vision/low BBall IQ looks like.Frank had a bad game. It happens and you'd know that if you weren't an obvious hater.
Frank's good games look like bad games. I was a Frank booster ... until this season. I made the claim that the organization did Frank wrong his first couple seasons. But now I can see that he just doesn't have what a guy picked that high should have. He is like one of Dorothy's companions in the wizard of oz looking for a quality that he doesn't possess.I like Payton. I don't like Frank or DSJ. I think we are still looking for our long-term solution at PG.
Is there any doubt the *hope* when Elf was signed that he provide stable PG play while we wait for DS or Frank to supplant him? Problem is all have been abysmal or hurt
What Frank lacks is from the shoulders up. He has good measurables. His shot isn't broken. He can handle a little bit, doesn't usually turn the ball over (except when he does, he does in bunches). He just is missing something instinctual required of a modern NBA PG others have come up with their reasons for why he plays tentative/mechanical -- 'plays the right way' 'didn't play AAU' whatever the reason for his extreme reticence is, it's great if you're a foreign exchange student, it's not for the PG spot in the NBA. That doesn't mean he can't be an NBA player. It just means he was picked too damn high. I hear "runs the offense" for Frank and i'm like... is that how low our standards have fallen? And if he is running the offense where are the assists? Why is he passing the ball to a big at halfcourt like it's hot potato? It's a mental brainlock with Frank. Only he can break that lock and i'm not holding my breath it happens in the next couple seasons.
What Dennis lacks is also from the shoulders up,in a different way from frank. He looks every bit the part of a lotto pick. Great athleticism, handles, and also a shot that's not broken. But he can't defend and can be selfish. Is he still hurt/rusty? Is his head not in the game? Has he lost his mojo?
Payton gets the job with the two sweetest words in the english language: BY DEFAULT
There's fair and legitimate criticism and then there isn't.
Instead of thrilling in the fact that we have a young PG who defends as well as any, has just turned 21, and has all of the intangible character qualities that point to a respectable and hopefully illustrious career, you measure Ntilikina by the lottery position he was drafted in as if those positions have ever or ever will be meaningful.
In some imaginary alternate universe or GMs will never make worse picks than others, will never make a bad trade, and will always get the benefit of the doubt with referees.
But in this world, Frankie is ours, he ain't perfect, and many of us see the point guard of the future working his way into that role. He ain't there yet. And he *is* in a funk. but funks don't last forever.
Likewise Peyton is a yaer or two ahead of Frankie and also learning and developing - that's two fine prospects who will eventually find their way.
You seem to think DSJ "looks" like a lottery pick. To me he looks like a belligerent bust more often than not. He's not a PG with a future in the NBA - maybe Europe, maybe China, and after all that maybe the NBA when he outgrows the attitude if that's all it is.
"Frankie is ours"
Your heart is big and i feel you. Hard to root against Frankie. I certainly want to see him succeed. Seems like such a nice kid. But the "Frankie is ours" mentality can hamstring you to better options. I'm not calling DSJ a better option. I'm calling Elf the better option.
Kemet wrote:The Knicks FO had $70M in spending money in the off-season to spend on FA veteran leaders .. and the best FA PG they could get to show mentoring leadership to a group of young-core raw guards (Frank DSJ Dotson Trier RJ Barrett) were Elfrid Payton ???
Name another they could have gotten on a 1 year deal
martin wrote:Kemet wrote:The Knicks FO had $70M in spending money in the off-season to spend on FA veteran leaders .. and the best FA PG they could get to show mentoring leadership to a group of young-core raw guards (Frank DSJ Dotson Trier RJ Barrett) were Elfrid Payton ???Name another they could have gotten on a 1 year deal
After last season 82 game performance .. in the off-season the Knicks FO first PRIORITY in the FA market were to go after a veteran leader PG that has better ball-movement skills than shoot-first FA Kyrie.
The Knicks young-core guards (Frank DSJ Dotson Trier and rookie Barrett) raw performance were in need of one of the NBA experience leadership PG to run the point for the Knicks this season: like the Knicks grabbing the 2 season contract of Chris Paul to lead the Knick offense, or sign the FA Beverley leadership performance to run the point for the Knicks the next 3 to 4 seasons.
I watch the Lakers & Heat game tonight to see how well the Heats performance match up to the Lebron & AD Lakers. The Heat are gonna bring problems in the East playoffs. And the Heats two rookie guards (Nunn and Herro) are performing great to be rookies. The Kid Nunn probably take the ROY from Ja Morrant.
The reason the Heats two rookie guards are performing so well are they have all the things the Knicks young core players don't have .. Like a great coaching staff, and the high caliber of veteran teammate guards around them .. Dragic Waiters Butler, plus the Heats draft pick 17 years ago Haslem are on the roster too.
Kemet wrote:martin wrote:Kemet wrote:The Knicks FO had $70M in spending money in the off-season to spend on FA veteran leaders .. and the best FA PG they could get to show mentoring leadership to a group of young-core raw guards (Frank DSJ Dotson Trier RJ Barrett) were Elfrid Payton ???Name another they could have gotten on a 1 year deal
After last season 82 game performance .. in the off-season the Knicks FO first PRIORITY in the FA market were to go after a veteran leader PG that has better ball-movement skills than shoot-first FA Kyrie.
The Knicks young-core guards (Frank DSJ Dotson Trier and rookie Barrett) raw performance were in need of one of the NBA experience leadership PG to run the point for the Knicks this season: like the Knicks grabbing the 2 season contract of Chris Paul to lead the Knick offense, or sign the FA Beverley leadership performance to run the point for the Knicks the next 3 to 4 seasons.I watch the Lakers & Heat game tonight to see how well the Heats performance match up to the Lebron & AD Lakers. The Heat are gonna bring problems in the East playoffs. And the Heats two rookie guards (Nunn and Herro) are performing great to be rookies. The Kid Nunn probably take the ROY from Ja Morrant.
The reason the Heats two rookie guards are performing so well are they have all the things the Knicks young core players don't have .. Like a great coaching staff, and the high caliber of veteran teammate guards around them .. Dragic Waiters Butler, plus the Heats draft pick 17 years ago Haslem are on the roster too.
CP3 and Pat Beverly? That’s pretty much your response?