Knicks · Agree with david west. (page 1)
I was thinking Anthony Grant — grant proved himself as an nba assistant. He played an exciting winning brand of basketball at Dayton. Hiring this guy would’ve been a great move. Instead we have an old white guy who does not get along with players well and doesn’t play younger guys. It’s the best man for the job but Tibs is the worst retread who got the job.
A retread coach with a rep for grinding down his best players. Even with all the connections, the front office has, I'll be surprised if we do better than retread stars, looking for that last big payday.
West is right about Black coaches. But I would also include young Black coaches, waiting for a chance. While Thibs gets his third in 5 years.
smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't like
A retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
This whole thing is nepotism and it’s disgusting
GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
He coached for the Bulls (very successful), then the Twolves, how is that constantly getting chances? It just seems a ridiculous term to me. What coaches are only allowed to coach once now?
wargames wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
This whole thing is nepotism and it’s disgusting
You wanted Kidd didn't you? By that definition, Kidd is also a retread as he's coached exactly the same number of teams as Thibs
smackeddog wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
He coached for the Bulls (very successful), then the Twolves, how is that constantly getting chances? It just seems a ridiculous term to me. What coaches are only allowed to coach once now?
What’s wrong with hiring Anthony Grant? He has nba experience and just modeled an incredible winning two way style of play?
Tibs is a 62 year old retread by any definition!!!!!
BRIGGS wrote:smackeddog wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
He coached for the Bulls (very successful), then the Twolves, how is that constantly getting chances? It just seems a ridiculous term to me. What coaches are only allowed to coach once now?
What’s wrong with hiring Anthony Grant? He has nba experience and just modeled an incredible winning two way style of play?
Tibs is a 62 year old retread by any definition!!!!!
Then it's a daft term. He's coached two teams. I don't have a problem with Anthony Grant, I don't have a problem with people criticising Thibs (I have!), I just take issue with the BS concept of 'retread' that seems to have been widened to ridiculous levels lately.
Vogel and Carlsile both successfully developed and changed their styles and have had great success. On forums they'd both have been dismissed as retreads.
I'd rather of gone for Kenny, or one of the Spurs young guys and continued the slow rebuild via drafts, but it is what it is and I'll give Thibs a shot.
smackeddog wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
He coached for the Bulls (very successful), then the Twolves, how is that constantly getting chances? It just seems a ridiculous term to me. What coaches are only allowed to coach once now?
ECF, thats it. And Thibs "successfully" coached 2 players until they wound up in the hospital from too much PT. His star player missing more games than any other star, that decade. This is your definition of success? Run players into the ground, and maybe we make the ECF? You seemed determined to paper over some real issues with the way Thibs coaches.
GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
He coached for the Bulls (very successful), then the Twolves, how is that constantly getting chances? It just seems a ridiculous term to me. What coaches are only allowed to coach once now?
ECF, thats it. And Thibs "successfully" coached 2 players until they wound up in the hospital from too much PT. His star player missing more games than any other star, that decade. This is your definition of success? Run players into the ground, and maybe we make the ECF? You seemed determined to paper over some real issues with the way Thibs coaches.
Bulls medical staff were a joke, not sure you can put all that on Thibs. If you don't think Thibs was successful in Chicago, then I'd love to know your definition of success.
smackeddog wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
He coached for the Bulls (very successful), then the Twolves, how is that constantly getting chances? It just seems a ridiculous term to me. What coaches are only allowed to coach once now?
ECF, thats it. And Thibs "successfully" coached 2 players until they wound up in the hospital from too much PT. His star player missing more games than any other star, that decade. This is your definition of success? Run players into the ground, and maybe we make the ECF? You seemed determined to paper over some real issues with the way Thibs coaches.
Bulls medical staff were a joke, not sure you can put all that on Thibs. If you don't think Thibs was successful in Chicago, then I'd love to know your definition of success.
Thibs was playing guys who had no business being on the court. Thats on him. Its more than a rumour at this point. Thibs wears down his best players. Two stops, is more than enough evidence.
My definition of success is a coach who thinks long term, when it comes to stars. At least the playoffs. You rely too much on stars, not enough on the bench, its going to hurt you down the road. Thibs made the same mistake, the last 2 stops. Until I hear him say that he will do things differently, this hire is a big mistake IMO. Id rather roll with a young coach on the rise, while the league is in transition.
smackeddog wrote:wargames wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
This whole thing is nepotism and it’s disgusting
You wanted Kidd didn't you? By that definition, Kidd is also a retread as he's coached exactly the same number of teams as Thibs
I wanted Atkinson, but thought Kidd was a better choice than Thibs and still do. Even now as we’re discussing this hire no one mentions development which is what the Knicks roster needed. Instead it’s defense which is funny because it’s a offense heavy league.
There were multiple coaches in this process better fitted for this role than Thibs, and the whole search was just a show to justify them pulling nepotism. They aren’t even rumored to be hiring one of the better forward thinking assistants and instead are taking Woodson and Miller who were both guys here prior.
BRIGGS wrote: Instead we have an old white guy who does not get along with players well and doesn’t play younger guys. It’s the best man for the job but Tibs is the worst retread who got the job.
Some of the reasons why some coaches don't get more opportunities/jobs in professional sports
1) Many people interview poorly. This is something Tony Dungy brought up, but he was often dismissed by other black coaches who felt he wasn't "black enough" Dungy just laid out some common sense, the best way to get better at interviewing is to do more interviews. And for many people, it's a difficult process because much of a head coaches job boils down to public speaking skills. How many people here are so so comfortable at public speaking? How many people here know other people who are so so comfortable at public speaking? And if so, out of how many countless people who are bad at it/terrified about it.
2) The interview process forces a coach to get interviewed one on one by the owner. This is an entirely different type of interview. You are usually dealing with a sociopath who hasn't heard the word No in the last 20-30 years of his life. Handling this kind of stuff requires a high level of self awareness and how to manage the expectations of difficult/impossible personalities
3) In a small league, there are no secrets. Many candidates would simply not pass the sniff test by the rabid media/public for the long term. Think about the culture we live in today, if you are a famous person who said or did something 20 years ago, that would be seen as racist, sexist, etc, someone will dig that up and it now becomes national news.
Classic untold story around the league is the big name player who liked to "borrow" money from people. Other players. Coaches. Trainers. Even the security guys and janitors ( for like 20 bucks from those guys) And never paid it back. Then would hunt down rookie players, even not on his own team, and try to "borrow" money from them. Think about it, you are some low level staffer, who is making jack shit in money, trying to move up and be successful, then this All Star comes to you and says, hey dude, let me borrow 20 bucks. What do you say? Maybe you can get away with that once or twice, but then if you do it to everyone and get a reputation, guess what happens when your playing career is over? No one wants to hire you.
Lots of guys in the league can't seem to keep their hands off of girlfriends, wives, and daughters of other players, coaches and front office people. So when they want a job, do you think they will get one? A lot of shit in a closed system is interpersonal. Many of you guys, where you work or have worked, how much bullshit did you see with just regular people doing regular jobs and couldn't keep the drama out of it? These folks in the NBA may be famous people, but they are just people, with same flaws, problems, conflicts are everyone else.
People will point out Kidd's problems off the court. His rep as a player and his ability to interview well finally could not outweigh the baggage he brings. It always catches up to you.
4) The interview process is often attrition and has elements that is scenario based. Many guys are NOT prepared for this process. The team will give you a random low level player and ask what do you think of this guy? Do you know why Erik Spolestra was successful? On his own time, he poured over film on EVERYONE. When asked about random player X from random Eastern European country Y, he'd say, sure sure in this game back 5 years ago, this guy did this and this is why he would succeed/fail at the NBA level. Lots of guy don't put in the work needed to be prepared to be a head coach. When you are a head coach, you are not just responsible for X's and O's, you must deal with the media, players families, other coaches, you must also give time to charity and be involved in some front office decisions.
A lot of guys won't do that. Spend 18 hours a day in a film room for weeks on end, then go to meetings with your fucked up owner, deal with press conferences, manage a players pissed off family because the guy isn't getting enough minutes, then maybe sleep 3 hours a night.
Success in anything is often built on repetition of the tedious and soul draining minutiae of the game itself.
In every boxing gym in America, there is some guy who is too fucking slow. Out of shape. Poor hand eye coordination. Probably too old as well. And the fucker is there almost every day. Long after everyone else leaves, the guy is there. Before everyone shows up, the guy is already there. Someone who simply won't quit and has no fucking chance. And after a while, this guy gives everything he has all the time, until people can't say No to him anymore. The coaches and trainers eventually walk by and give him tips and pointers. The veterans teach him how to spar. The culture finally embraces him because he's left them no choice. That's how Kenny Atkinson got to be a head coach. If a mouth breather like Patrick Ewing, with all the advantages of being a HOF player, worked 1/10th as hard at Atkinson or Spolestra, he'd be a head coach in the NBA right now.
Is Ewing denied because he's black? Or is he denied because the league knows he's an entitled lazy narcissist who has shit people skills and made enemies his entire time in the league? "We make a lot of money, but we spend a lot of money too!" Think about how fucking dumb and tone deaf and entitled you have to be to say something this stupid in the press?
Do you know what David West could really do? He could spend his own money and use his influence as a famous athlete/quasi celebrity and rent a building and hire and fill it with sports psychologists, analytics guys, cap guys, interview experts and former league executives and have black coaches come in and help them learn how to do better in high level interviews. How to better understand the cap. How to more efficiently break down film and scout. How to deal with the media. What is David West doing to help black coaches succeed? Has he put his time/money where his mouth is? THEN FUCK HIM.
White or black, if you want something and you won't put in the work, if you won't put your money where your mouth is, then go fuck yourself.
No one gives you shit in this life, you go out and take it. A man, being a real man, means you go out and take it. And if it's unfair, you work relentlessly so when you do get your one chance, big or small, you seize it and make it yours.
Change diet?
Adapt in any way at work or at home?
Read something and adapt behavior?
Study and learn?
Attend classes and apply information to knowledge?
Biggest Beef is he coached a guy to the youngest MVP ever and we accuse him of pathologically running every player down?
Noah did not train hard enough post Thibs. He owns that.
what else? Butler hated him so much he wanted to be traded to Minny? Why left? Glenn Taylor went with his soft stars. Where does BUtler resign with? Miami, a tough non nonsense organization.
Nepotism? Is he a relative of Rose? Were they friends as kids? NO, he represented a very respected coach and a friendship ensued from that. Is Thibs not qualaified?
Old White guy? Vs. a young untested guy who might not cut it? I love the idea, thought Fish and Fiz were that..Maybe Thibs grows hie own tree? Thibs is Via Vanguny or the Riley/Pitino tree.
Do any of you really think in the process of hiring they did not address all of Thibs postitives and Negatives? Really, that some of you are so cleaver beyond all the guys interviewing that nobody would consider that concern? Wow!
I like Atkinone. 55 year old perpetual assistant who did a great job with Nets. Still got fired. So Thibs has one more top over Kenny? He is not a “retread”? Bud?
BTW, I liked most of the knicks 11 interviewed. Like many I had reservations about Kidd. Glad he is an assistant now and he might be better for it.
Nalod wrote:Anybody quit smoking?
Change diet?
Adapt in any way at work or at home?
Read something and adapt behavior?
Study and learn?
Attend classes and apply information to knowledge?Biggest Beef is he coached a guy to the youngest MVP ever and we accuse him of pathologically running every player down?
Noah did not train hard enough post Thibs. He owns that.
what else? Butler hated him so much he wanted to be traded to Minny? Why left? Glenn Taylor went with his soft stars. Where does BUtler resign with? Miami, a tough non nonsense organization.
Nepotism? Is he a relative of Rose? Were they friends as kids? NO, he represented a very respected coach and a friendship ensued from that. Is Thibs not qualaified?
Old White guy? Vs. a young untested guy who might not cut it? I love the idea, thought Fish and Fiz were that..Maybe Thibs grows hie own tree? Thibs is Via Vanguny or the Riley/Pitino tree.
Do any of you really think in the process of hiring they did not address all of Thibs postitives and Negatives? Really, that some of you are so cleaver beyond all the guys interviewing that nobody would consider that concern? Wow!I like Atkinone. 55 year old perpetual assistant who did a great job with Nets. Still got fired. So Thibs has one more top over Kenny? He is not a “retread”? Bud?
BTW, I liked most of the knicks 11 interviewed. Like many I had reservations about Kidd. Glad he is an assistant now and he might be better for it.
Hey you can make all the excuses you want. All I know is I think as soon as their was a HC option Woj said its Thibs, and now here we are. That to me is always a sign of unfair hiring practices and the old boys club.
I don't like that, to the point I am putting my normal stockholm syndrome aside and saying I am about done with this team. That's how bad a taste this whole process put in my mouth and also how bad a end result I expect it to lead to.
On the slightest of hopes I am going to see what we do in the draft and FA but if the very reliable sources are right and the move is CP3 and drafting a CAA client..... good luck to them and to all of you as a fanbase.
wargames wrote:Nalod wrote:Anybody quit smoking?
Change diet?
Adapt in any way at work or at home?
Read something and adapt behavior?
Study and learn?
Attend classes and apply information to knowledge?Biggest Beef is he coached a guy to the youngest MVP ever and we accuse him of pathologically running every player down?
Noah did not train hard enough post Thibs. He owns that.
what else? Butler hated him so much he wanted to be traded to Minny? Why left? Glenn Taylor went with his soft stars. Where does BUtler resign with? Miami, a tough non nonsense organization.
Nepotism? Is he a relative of Rose? Were they friends as kids? NO, he represented a very respected coach and a friendship ensued from that. Is Thibs not qualaified?
Old White guy? Vs. a young untested guy who might not cut it? I love the idea, thought Fish and Fiz were that..Maybe Thibs grows hie own tree? Thibs is Via Vanguny or the Riley/Pitino tree.
Do any of you really think in the process of hiring they did not address all of Thibs postitives and Negatives? Really, that some of you are so cleaver beyond all the guys interviewing that nobody would consider that concern? Wow!I like Atkinone. 55 year old perpetual assistant who did a great job with Nets. Still got fired. So Thibs has one more top over Kenny? He is not a “retread”? Bud?
BTW, I liked most of the knicks 11 interviewed. Like many I had reservations about Kidd. Glad he is an assistant now and he might be better for it.Hey you can make all the excuses you want. All I know is I think as soon as their was a HC option Woj said its Thibs, and now here we are. That to me is always a sign of unfair hiring practices and the old boys club.
I don't like that, to the point I am putting my normal stockholm syndrome aside and saying I am about done with this team. That's how bad a taste this whole process put in my mouth and also how bad a end result I expect it to lead to.
On the slightest of hopes I am going to see what we do in the draft and FA but if the very reliable sources are right and the move is CP3 and drafting a CAA client..... good luck to them and to all of you as a fanbase.
First off -weak
And secondly- you will be back
BRIGGS wrote:Briggs, I feel I can give you a decent answer to this since I am very familiar with Grant since he used to be the head coach at my alma mater. I have followed his career since 2007, have met him a couple of times, chatted with him once. Know a lot of people who have interacted closely with him.smackeddog wrote:GustavBahler wrote:smackeddog wrote:Would people start defining what they mean by 'retread' coach? (not aimed at you specifically, but I keep seeing it on forums) It's such a daft concept, that seems to have become common place and used to describe any coach who's coached before, who someone doesn't likeA retread coach is a coach who keeps getting chances, even though the game might be passing them by or they havent fielded a contender in a while, if ever. Believe its daft to consider Thibs the best choice in a player's league.
He coached for the Bulls (very successful), then the Twolves, how is that constantly getting chances? It just seems a ridiculous term to me. What coaches are only allowed to coach once now?
What’s wrong with hiring Anthony Grant? He has nba experience and just modeled an incredible winning two way style of play?
Tibs is a 62 year old retread by any definition!!!!!
Grant is a great college coach and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him. HOWEVER, Grant's personality would absolutely not be a good fit to be an NBA head coach. Grant is very reserved, doesn't have much of an appetite to deal with the media and though he is a VERY nice man, is not what you would call an engaging personality. It wasn't received very well at Alabama when he coached there. I remember reaching posts like "can you at least act like you want to be here." His NBA coaching experience is mainly because he and Billy Donovan are VERY tight from their days in college, particularly coaching together at Florida. When Grant was fired from Alabama, Donovan provided Grant with a soft landing spot at OKC until he decided on his next move, which ended up being the coaching gig at Dayton (his alma mater).
Grant only coached as an assistant two seasons in the NBA. Based on what I know about Grant, he is in the perfect situation at Dayton and I actually predicted he may get the Dayton job when Archie Miller left. His personal goal has always been to win a NCAA championship as a head coach (he has a ring as an assistant coach at Florida). He pursued that by taking the Alabama job, and it didn't work out. I can almost guarantee you, Grant has ZERO aspirations to be a head coach in the NBA. In fact, I bet he probably really didn't want to be an assistant in the NBA. Grant is not a "ladder climber" type of guy, say like Calipari. He spent (I believe) 10 years at Florida as an assistant because he wanted to wait for the right first head coaching job in spite of getting several offers over the years. Grant is not the type of guy always looking for the next big gig. If anything, he may take another stab at a power five college job one last time. Also, I doubt VERY seriously he and his family would have any interest living in NYC. Grant grew up in Miami and most of his experience has been in the south (other than playing and coaching at Dayton). Grant's strong suit is dealing with young men in a college environment. I think he's better equip to help young men with their academic challenges versus the typical NBA grown men challenges.
I hope this may temper you advocating for Anthony Grant. I can assure you, he would not have been a good fit in NYC and this is no slight on him whatsoever. I would bet anything he wouldn't have been happy here and Knick fans wouldn't have been happy with him. Think about the Derek Fisher experience, just maybe twice as bad. There are a ton on other African-American coaching prospects you can advocate for.
One last thing, don't be surprise if we draft his best player Obi Toppin.