Knicks · Vessell. Nesmith head to head (page 2)
This guy is 220+ and built like an nba player. Not saying a slugger guy can’t do it either but he’s got a strong physical body
BRIGGS wrote:To me this shows Nesmith is a much stronger offensive player who actually rebounds at a better clip. Vessell shows a slightly better defensive profile but let’s also take into account that Nesmith is 30 pounds heavier and built nba ready. Nesmith only played 14 games but made 15 more 3s! Ft % and getting to the line are also not close.
Nesmith is the best pure shooter in the draft. But what about everything else? Yes, he can shoot, but like Vassel, the question becomes can he consistently get to and finish at the rim and draw contact ( be fouled or sell the story to the refs that he was fouled)
Shooting will give Nesmith a functional career in the league, his ability or inability to get to the rim will determine his offensive ceiling. The answer is right now that Nesmith can't and he doesn't project long term to be able to get to the rim consistently. Efficient scoring needs to happen at three levels (essentially classic MoreyBall) You demand the Knicks get better offense while not looking at things like pace, ball movement, floor spacing and how skill sets will or will not translate to the pro level.
Vassell is the better defender by far. Very instinctive and reads the floor well on that end. I don't know if his on ball defense will translate as well to the NBA level against these super charged attack guards with the rules in their favor. He's needs more size but once he gets on pro level cutting edge gear, that will take care of itself assuming he gets to a team where someone can teach him to pin correctly. I also don't see Vassell consistently getting to the rim and finishing there.
Vassell won't be there at 8. I don't see any way he survives past the Hawks pick. Nesmith will likely be there at 8 but I posit that there will other more useful players to draft.
Vassell is the better fit for the modern NBA than Nesmith. Nesmith will carve out a functional career in the league.
The assumptions for Vassell's potential ceiling is he's going to put on that muscle and with experience he's going to be able to score at all three levels consistently.
The assumptions for Nesmith's potential ceiling is he's going to magically improve just about every aspect of his game aside from his shooting.
The pick is Saddiq Bey. He's not the same class of shooter as Nesmith and I don't think he has Vassell's defensive instincts. But I think he is much more versatile and less "fit dependent" than those two. His build is NBA ready today, without hoping he will change into something else. He comes from a good college system and is very fundamental. He's not a jump out of the gym athlete either but I think he stands a better chance of getting to the rim consistently and drawing contact. Even if some guys here like Vassell better, I just don't see him dropping to 8. If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you are with.
Five years ago, before the 2015 draft, I said the Knicks should trade back from 4 and take Devin Booker, because the market dictated elite shooting wings would be prized above all else. A few years back, I said the Knicks should take SGA/Mikal Bridges because they needed to stop dicking around on hoping a player would dramatically change and get a high floor wing with the potential to be better. This year, I'm saying take the best balance/versatility out of the wing prospects.
TripleThreat wrote:BRIGGS wrote:To me this shows Nesmith is a much stronger offensive player who actually rebounds at a better clip. Vessell shows a slightly better defensive profile but let’s also take into account that Nesmith is 30 pounds heavier and built nba ready. Nesmith only played 14 games but made 15 more 3s! Ft % and getting to the line are also not close.Nesmith is the best pure shooter in the draft. But what about everything else? Yes, he can shoot, but like Vassel, the question becomes can he consistently get to and finish at the rim and draw contact ( be fouled or sell the story to the refs that he was fouled)
Shooting will give Nesmith a functional career in the league, his ability or inability to get to the rim will determine his offensive ceiling. The answer is right now that Nesmith can't and he doesn't project long term to be able to get to the rim consistently. Efficient scoring needs to happen at three levels (essentially classic MoreyBall) You demand the Knicks get better offense while not looking at things like pace, ball movement, floor spacing and how skill sets will or will not translate to the pro level.
Vassell is the better defender by far. Very instinctive and reads the floor well on that end. I don't know if his on ball defense will translate as well to the NBA level against these super charged attack guards with the rules in their favor. He's needs more size but once he gets on pro level cutting edge gear, that will take care of itself assuming he gets to a team where someone can teach him to pin correctly. I also don't see Vassell consistently getting to the rim and finishing there.
Vassell won't be there at 8. I don't see any way he survives past the Hawks pick. Nesmith will likely be there at 8 but I posit that there will other more useful players to draft.
Vassell is the better fit for the modern NBA than Nesmith. Nesmith will carve out a functional career in the league.
The assumptions for Vassell's potential ceiling is he's going to put on that muscle and with experience he's going to be able to score at all three levels consistently.
The assumptions for Nesmith's potential ceiling is he's going to magically improve just about every aspect of his game aside from his shooting.
The pick is Saddiq Bey. He's not the same class of shooter as Nesmith and I don't think he has Vassell's defensive instincts. But I think he is much more versatile and less "fit dependent" than those two. His build is NBA ready today, without hoping he will change into something else. He comes from a good college system and is very fundamental. He's not a jump out of the gym athlete either but I think he stands a better chance of getting to the rim consistently and drawing contact. Even if some guys here like Vassell better, I just don't see him dropping to 8. If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you are with.
Five years ago, before the 2015 draft, I said the Knicks should trade back from 4 and take Devin Booker, because the market dictated elite shooting wings would be prized above all else. A few years back, I said the Knicks should take SGA/Mikal Bridges because they needed to stop dicking around on hoping a player would dramatically change and get a high floor wing with the potential to be better. This year, I'm saying take the best balance/versatility out of the wing prospects.
Nesmith went to the line more than twice as much as vassell. I’m looking at this player as almost a modern day Allan Houston or klay Thompson. Best shooter in draft good rebounder good team defender with long arms(6-10) can take smaller guards inside. But again I’ll go back to his main skill. His 3 point shooting and how well he works sets up for the 3 is grounds enough to draft him. Drafting the best shooter isn’t going to be a bad thing— we need it!
2) Wiseman
3) Toppin
4) Okongwu
5) Ball
6) Haliburton
7) Avedja
Assume without regard to exact draft order, the top 7 players are listed above. If someone (Hawks) draft Vassel, someone else drops. At 8, you are still within a large group of similarly situated players. There are strong arguments that one of Ball or Haliburton will drop based on positional need. It is just as (If not more) likely that someone will trade up to grab a PG.
Okoro, Vassell, Nesmith, Hayes, Bey, Anthony, Poku all remain available. I don’t think 8 is a bad position. I really think the Knicks get the same player at 8 that they likely would have taken at 6. Just two rookie scale salary tiers lower.
Bey shot 45 percent from 3 last year on above average volume. He also started out shorter as pg so he is a facilitator somewhat.
I really think this is between neismith bey and vassel for us.
don’t talk me about pgs I the first round. I’ll pass.
EwingsGlass wrote:1) Edwards
2) Wiseman
3) Toppin
4) Okongwu
5) Ball
6) Haliburton
7) AvedjaAssume without regard to exact draft order, the top 7 players are listed above. If someone (Hawks) draft Vassel, someone else drops. At 8, you are still within a large group of similarly situated players. There are strong arguments that one of Ball or Haliburton will drop based on positional need. It is just as (If not more) likely that someone will trade up to grab a PG.
Okoro, Vassell, Nesmith, Hayes, Bey, Anthony, Poku all remain available. I don’t think 8 is a bad position. I really think the Knicks get the same player at 8 that they likely would have taken at 6. Just two rookie scale salary tiers lower.
Honestly I hope we draft Kira
wargames wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:1) Edwards
2) Wiseman
3) Toppin
4) Okongwu
5) Ball
6) Haliburton
7) AvedjaAssume without regard to exact draft order, the top 7 players are listed above. If someone (Hawks) draft Vassel, someone else drops. At 8, you are still within a large group of similarly situated players. There are strong arguments that one of Ball or Haliburton will drop based on positional need. It is just as (If not more) likely that someone will trade up to grab a PG.
Okoro, Vassell, Nesmith, Hayes, Bey, Anthony, Poku all remain available. I don’t think 8 is a bad position. I really think the Knicks get the same player at 8 that they likely would have taken at 6. Just two rookie scale salary tiers lower.
Honestly I hope we draft Kira
If Kira is the target, you trade back to get him. You don't draft him at 8
HofstraBBall wrote:BRIGGS wrote:First off
Nesmith played only 14 games. Vessell played 30
Size
Vessell 6-7 195
Nesmith 6-6 225
Number of games with 19 or more points
Vessell 2/29
Nesmith 10/14
25 or more points Vessell 1/29 Nesmith 6/143 pointers made season
Vessell 45/115 41%
Nesmith 60/110 52%
Foul shots attempts
Vessell. 1.6/2.2 73%
Nesmith 3.7/4.5 82%
Efg%
Vessell 56%
Nesmith 66%
2 pg%
Vessell 3.3/6.3 53%
Nesmith 3.2/6.4 50%
Rebound % 2 years per 40 min
Vessell 6.7
Nesmith 6.9
Assists 2 years per 40 min
Vessel 2.3
Nesmith 1.6
Steals per 40
Vessell 2.0
Nesmith 1.2
Per
Nesmith 29
Vessell 24
To me this shows Nesmith is a much stronger offensive player who actually rebounds at a better clip. Vessell shows a slightly better defensive profile but let’s also take into account that Nesmith is 30 pounds heavier and built nba ready. Nesmith only played 14 games but made 15 more 3s! Ft % and getting to the line are also not close.Briggs, it is nice to see that you have added what I brought up on a different thread in your analysis. (14 GAME SEASON)
However, you have once again ignored the other criteria I mentioned and probably the most important one.
That is, the Level of competition these stats were gathered from!Vassell plays in the ACC. Nesmith plays in the Southeastern Conference. Which one do you think is a tougher conference? Vasell's stats were compiled in a 38 game season in which he competed against the best teams/Programs in the nation. (Virginia, Louisville, Duke, Florida, Tennessee, Purdue, Indiana, NC State, Notre Dame etc).
Nesmith competed in minimal games in a weaker conference. Games which included UNC Wilmington, Southeastern Louisiana, South Carolina State and a few others that are not very good even when competing in their very weak conferences.Again, Nesmith has good size and a good all be it slow outside shot. However, feel the only reason he is in the top 25 is because of his 3pt shooting percentage achieved in a small sample size. Problem for me is that many are ignoring the two factors that I have previously brought up and mentioned above. Safe to say that good GM's will take those into consideration.
Spot on!!! And I like Nesmith but he got injured just before league play began so its senseless to compare stats.
) that Vassell reminds me of a young Ariza. Very good athlete, elite defender and can knock down a catch and shoot 3. 1 of about 4 players I'm targeting at 8.
xblvdels3 wrote:Agree.
Bey shot 45 percent from 3 last year on above average volume. He also started out shorter as pg so he is a facilitator somewhat.I really think this is between neismith bey and vassel for us.
don’t talk me about pgs I the first round. I’ll pass.
I've got Okoro in that group as well. His upside is the best out of all them.
Uptown wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:BRIGGS wrote:First off
Nesmith played only 14 games. Vessell played 30
Size
Vessell 6-7 195
Nesmith 6-6 225
Number of games with 19 or more points
Vessell 2/29
Nesmith 10/14
25 or more points Vessell 1/29 Nesmith 6/143 pointers made season
Vessell 45/115 41%
Nesmith 60/110 52%
Foul shots attempts
Vessell. 1.6/2.2 73%
Nesmith 3.7/4.5 82%
Efg%
Vessell 56%
Nesmith 66%
2 pg%
Vessell 3.3/6.3 53%
Nesmith 3.2/6.4 50%
Rebound % 2 years per 40 min
Vessell 6.7
Nesmith 6.9
Assists 2 years per 40 min
Vessel 2.3
Nesmith 1.6
Steals per 40
Vessell 2.0
Nesmith 1.2
Per
Nesmith 29
Vessell 24
To me this shows Nesmith is a much stronger offensive player who actually rebounds at a better clip. Vessell shows a slightly better defensive profile but let’s also take into account that Nesmith is 30 pounds heavier and built nba ready. Nesmith only played 14 games but made 15 more 3s! Ft % and getting to the line are also not close.Briggs, it is nice to see that you have added what I brought up on a different thread in your analysis. (14 GAME SEASON)
However, you have once again ignored the other criteria I mentioned and probably the most important one.
That is, the Level of competition these stats were gathered from!Vassell plays in the ACC. Nesmith plays in the Southeastern Conference. Which one do you think is a tougher conference? Vasell's stats were compiled in a 38 game season in which he competed against the best teams/Programs in the nation. (Virginia, Louisville, Duke, Florida, Tennessee, Purdue, Indiana, NC State, Notre Dame etc).
Nesmith competed in minimal games in a weaker conference. Games which included UNC Wilmington, Southeastern Louisiana, South Carolina State and a few others that are not very good even when competing in their very weak conferences.Again, Nesmith has good size and a good all be it slow outside shot. However, feel the only reason he is in the top 25 is because of his 3pt shooting percentage achieved in a small sample size. Problem for me is that many are ignoring the two factors that I have previously brought up and mentioned above. Safe to say that good GM's will take those into consideration.
Spot on!!! And I like Nesmith but he got injured just before league play began so its senseless to compare stats.
Of course you can look at stats despite 14 games. In those 14 he hit 15 more 3 than vasselll did all year — look at getting to the line? Ft%
One has the ability to be a great scorer and a marksman from 3. The other is more of a 3 d w slighter frame. Also teams keyed on Nesmith.
BRIGGS wrote:TripleThreat wrote:BRIGGS wrote:To me this shows Nesmith is a much stronger offensive player who actually rebounds at a better clip. Vessell shows a slightly better defensive profile but let’s also take into account that Nesmith is 30 pounds heavier and built nba ready. Nesmith only played 14 games but made 15 more 3s! Ft % and getting to the line are also not close.Nesmith is the best pure shooter in the draft. But what about everything else? Yes, he can shoot, but like Vassel, the question becomes can he consistently get to and finish at the rim and draw contact ( be fouled or sell the story to the refs that he was fouled)
Shooting will give Nesmith a functional career in the league, his ability or inability to get to the rim will determine his offensive ceiling. The answer is right now that Nesmith can't and he doesn't project long term to be able to get to the rim consistently. Efficient scoring needs to happen at three levels (essentially classic MoreyBall) You demand the Knicks get better offense while not looking at things like pace, ball movement, floor spacing and how skill sets will or will not translate to the pro level.
Vassell is the better defender by far. Very instinctive and reads the floor well on that end. I don't know if his on ball defense will translate as well to the NBA level against these super charged attack guards with the rules in their favor. He's needs more size but once he gets on pro level cutting edge gear, that will take care of itself assuming he gets to a team where someone can teach him to pin correctly. I also don't see Vassell consistently getting to the rim and finishing there.
Vassell won't be there at 8. I don't see any way he survives past the Hawks pick. Nesmith will likely be there at 8 but I posit that there will other more useful players to draft.
Vassell is the better fit for the modern NBA than Nesmith. Nesmith will carve out a functional career in the league.
The assumptions for Vassell's potential ceiling is he's going to put on that muscle and with experience he's going to be able to score at all three levels consistently.
The assumptions for Nesmith's potential ceiling is he's going to magically improve just about every aspect of his game aside from his shooting.
The pick is Saddiq Bey. He's not the same class of shooter as Nesmith and I don't think he has Vassell's defensive instincts. But I think he is much more versatile and less "fit dependent" than those two. His build is NBA ready today, without hoping he will change into something else. He comes from a good college system and is very fundamental. He's not a jump out of the gym athlete either but I think he stands a better chance of getting to the rim consistently and drawing contact. Even if some guys here like Vassell better, I just don't see him dropping to 8. If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you are with.
Five years ago, before the 2015 draft, I said the Knicks should trade back from 4 and take Devin Booker, because the market dictated elite shooting wings would be prized above all else. A few years back, I said the Knicks should take SGA/Mikal Bridges because they needed to stop dicking around on hoping a player would dramatically change and get a high floor wing with the potential to be better. This year, I'm saying take the best balance/versatility out of the wing prospects.
Nesmith went to the line more than twice as much as vassell. I’m looking at this player as almost a modern day Allan Houston or klay Thompson. Best shooter in draft good rebounder good team defender with long arms(6-10) can take smaller guards inside. But again I’ll go back to his main skill. His 3 point shooting and how well he works sets up for the 3 is grounds enough to draft him. Drafting the best shooter isn’t going to be a bad thing— we need it!
Like Briggs here I’ve been an advocate for Nesmith for a long time. I really feel with further development he could be our version of Devin Booker. And I do see him having some defensive instincts. I see him as a higher ceiling guy than Vassell. But I will concede Vassell has the more versatile Game especially on defence. Both are more guards than wings in my opinion.
My head says Vassell but my heart goes Nesmith. I’m a man that follows his heart...
BRIGGS wrote:— look at getting to the line? Ft%One has the ability to be a great scorer and a marksman from 3. The other is more of a 3 d w slighter frame. Also teams keyed on Nesmith.
Nesmith does not have a strong first step. He doesn't have that burst/explosion needed to consistently get to the cup. You aren't getting free throws as a wing if you can't show you can consistently break down a defense, beat your man and finish at the rim and/or draw contact.
A great scorer can score at all three levels while maintaining game flow and with good shot selection.
Good shot selection is your true shooting opportunities in three places - at the rim, free throws, and three point shots
Nesmith is going to be a good long range shooter. That's only one third of the equation. The other two look hazy. Guys usually don't magically find an extra level of burst in their game. Even with NBA level gear in their systems.
You are looking at what Nesmith has done in limited showcases involving inferior competition. Until he can prove he can be a matchup nightmare against other NBA teams consistently at ALL three levels, then he's not a great scorer. He certainly wouldn't be an efficient one on the nights he's running a hot hand.
Briggs, there's not a bigger heart nor a bigger fan of this team than you, but you are stuck demanding a type of basketball that is no longer relevant to the modern game. You also have a love affair with rebounds when the space and pace era has dramatically devalued them. You want bigs who can't shoot long range and you want long range gunners who can't get to the rim.
I tell you what Briggs, if I live long enough to do it, which sadly won't be likely, I'll take you to a Sloan Sports Conference when this pandemic clears. My treat. I'll even let you wear my Avon Barksdale track suit ( I have one and it's epic) Then you'll have the opportunity to see the numbers get crunched behind the modern game.
TripleThreat wrote:BRIGGS wrote:— look at getting to the line? Ft%One has the ability to be a great scorer and a marksman from 3. The other is more of a 3 d w slighter frame. Also teams keyed on Nesmith.
Nesmith does not have a strong first step. He doesn't have that burst/explosion needed to consistently get to the cup. You aren't getting free throws as a wing if you can't show you can consistently break down a defense, beat your man and finish at the rim and/or draw contact.
A great scorer can score at all three levels while maintaining game flow and with good shot selection.
Good shot selection is your true shooting opportunities in three places - at the rim, free throws, and three point shots
Nesmith is going to be a good long range shooter. That's only one third of the equation. The other two look hazy. Guys usually don't magically find an extra level of burst in their game. Even with NBA level gear in their systems.
You are looking at what Nesmith has done in limited showcases involving inferior competition. Until he can prove he can be a matchup nightmare against other NBA teams consistently at ALL three levels, then he's not a great scorer. He certainly wouldn't be an efficient one on the nights he's running a hot hand.
Briggs, there's not a bigger heart nor a bigger fan of this team than you, but you are stuck demanding a type of basketball that is no longer relevant to the modern game. You also have a love affair with rebounds when the space and pace era has dramatically devalued them. You want bigs who can't shoot long range and you want long range gunners who can't get to the rim.
I tell you what Briggs, if I live long enough to do it, which sadly won't be likely, I'll take you to a Sloan Sports Conference when this pandemic clears. My treat. I'll even let you wear my Avon Barksdale track suit ( I have one and it's epic) Then you'll have the opportunity to see the numbers get crunched behind the modern game.
TT// first off you’ll be on this Earth a lot longer than me.
I don’t really view Klay Thompson as a great 3 level scorer. What he is is a franchise 3 point shooter who fit in incredibly well
We have Barrett—he’s our slasher. Ultimately we need a guy who can space the floor— create havoc with the 3 point line. This will make everyone better.
I’m open to drafting Avdija if he slips but I’m highly keyed on our 2 guard and increasing the teams 3 point assault. If Vassell was such a great 3 level scorer he’d get to the line more than twice a game — he’s being over rated a bit imho
wargames wrote:Honestly I just don’t get the allure of either Nesmith, Vessell, or Okoro when we have a better player than all three in RJ. Just like RJ all three would be best playing as a SG, plus next year is a really strong SF draft class. The Knicks need a PG and a PF from this draft.
Okoro is combo forward who might also be able to play some 2. Vassel is swing, and he can play SF. Nesmith is a 2, who might be able to spot you some minutes at 3. Think of Nesmith as better shooting, less athletic, weaker defined D Dot. All three could theoretically play with RJ (Okoro needs to improve the shot). We do need talent tho, so hopefully someone slips.
BRIGGS wrote:
This is how I envision using Nesmith. While you can see he can do much more than shoot 3s he does put immense pressure on the D simply by strategically moving without the ball constantly setting up for new 3s. This will create wider avenues for Barrett Mitch Frank and whoever else we have. He has a beautiful easy quick release. He’s strong yet quick and smart enough to set for clean shots in seconds. He’s open he mostly makes it. He’s a weapon and can be a smart piece of the pie.
Again think of style of play. He immediately puts high pressure on the defense by simply moving around the 3 point line. He’s like a machine when he gets space. Also u can see him taking smaller guards in the paint — this is exactly what we need. We need a major offensive force to increase our 3 point shooting arsenal to help create space for the team
Uptown wrote:I saw Vassell in HS and he was a 6'1 guard when Florida state initially recruited him. He had a growth spurt and may still be growing and getting stronger. His handle is better that what he showed at Florida State. I mentioned in the NBA Draft thread ( that no one wants to use anymore
He reminds me of Ariza too, but an even better shooter. I think that’s a great pickup at 8 though.