Knicks · Making sense of the Knicks off-season so far (page 1)

We have finally seen the Rose front office in full swing and I think so far we can make a few assumptions and observations;

The draft went according to plan and maybe even better. Obi and Quickley were clearly the 2 targets of this front office (LaMelo Ball notwithstanding) and they not only got Toppin but did so without having to make any moves, he fell in their lap. Big win for the front office so far. Then we got to free agency...

It’s hard to say at this point if this is how the front office planned it. They have been exceptionally quiet and we probably can assume that’s by design. It seems like they never even attempted a VanVleet deal, Gallinari, or any other semi-big assumed targets. Hayward was in play, but ultimately there’s no way they were going to pay him anything near what we got.

The knicks have made 3 boring moves so far. Burks while a boring acquisition is actually a very good pickup. He’s better than Bullock or Ellington and can shoot and make plays from the wing. The issue with him has always been health, but he’s low risk. Noel is a fine backup for Mitch. Payton coming back is a bit frustrating for me because of the lack of shooting, but my guess is he’s still a fail-safe for the team that doesn’t trust the other guards on the team.

So what does it all mean? Well the Knicks still have 25 mil or so in cap space if you count Payton or Noel having contracts that can be absorbed into the MLE after using up all the space. This front office seems to be doing 2 things; letting free agency come to them, but even more importantly, i think they are maintaining this flexibility for a big trade in the next week or so. Maybe Westbrook, Wall, or Rozier come to mind. Maybe there’s a couple surprise names out there that will come up. Or maybe this post will age poorly and the Knicks blow all this money some other way. But I expect the Knicks have held off on spending because something big is brewing.

My main concerns are bringing back Payton as a starter and still not addressing the shooting concerns. Maybe they feel like Burks, Bullock and Quickley on the wings, plus replacing Randle with Toppin at the 4 addresses the spacing issues, but doesn’t seem like enough. We will see. I think the main takeaway here is this cap space will likely be used and it may not be in free agency. We will see.

It's fine. These are no risk moves essentially. I probably would have gone with Halliburton, but I can understand Oppin. Hopefully he can become a slightly below average defender at the 4.
Van Vleet was the only PG of interest in FA and the solution there still isn't apparent.

Knixkik wrote:We have finally seen the Rose front office in full swing and I think so far we can make a few assumptions and observations;

The draft went according to plan and maybe even better. Obi and Quickley were clearly the 2 targets of this front office (LaMelo Ball notwithstanding) and they not only got Toppin but did so without having to make any moves, he fell in their lap. Big win for the front office so far. Then we got to free agency...

It’s hard to say at this point if this is how the front office planned it. They have been exceptionally quiet and we probably can assume that’s by design. It seems like they never even attempted a VanVleet deal, Gallinari, or any other semi-big assumed targets. Hayward was in play, but ultimately there’s no way they were going to pay him anything near what we got.

The knicks have made 3 boring moves so far. Burks while a boring acquisition is actually a very good pickup. He’s better than Bullock or Ellington and can shoot and make plays from the wing. The issue with him has always been health, but he’s low risk. Noel is a fine backup for Mitch. Payton coming back is a bit frustrating for me because of the lack of shooting, but my guess is he’s still a fail-safe for the team that doesn’t trust the other guards on the team.

So what does it all mean? Well the Knicks still have 25 mil or so in cap space if you count Payton or Noel having contracts that can be absorbed into the MLE after using up all the space. This front office seems to be doing 2 things; letting free agency come to them, but even more importantly, i think they are maintaining this flexibility for a big trade in the next week or so. Maybe Westbrook, Wall, or Rozier come to mind. Maybe there’s a couple surprise names out there that will come up. Or maybe this post will age poorly and the Knicks blow all this money some other way. But I expect the Knicks have held off on spending because something big is brewing.

My main concerns are bringing back Payton as a starter and still not addressing the shooting concerns. Maybe they feel like Burks, Bullock and Quickley on the wings, plus replacing Randle with Toppin at the 4 addresses the spacing issues, but doesn’t seem like enough. We will see. I think the main takeaway here is this cap space will likely be used and it may not be in free agency. We will see.

Great post...I also think based on what someone indicated on Twitter is that they can carry this cap space into the season and do not need to reach the “floor” until the end of the season...if they go this route the essentially become the bank or a clearinghouse for teams to make moves....if they can use this shrewdly they can pick up a few assets while maintaining a decent portion of the cap for 2021...

I think Elf means they are keeping Randle. The two have some chemistry

They still need to find some more shooting. Right now, Quickley and Burks are the only players that can shoot the 3 and spread the floor. Might need to see what Bullock looks like after his recovery. We need more shooting though.

Curious to see how NBA ready Quickley is. With his shooting and length he might be finding minutes very soon (quickly?) out of Ntlikina’s minutes. He looks like he is a perfect match to Barrett.

Quickley I could see him in a Lou Williams role....but with a little more playmaking...he has the length to guard so he can be switchable when playing with RJ....I think Thibs got some pieces to work with..

Some of this is a continuation of Perry's approach to cap flexibility. We werent taking this approach before Perry became GM.

Rose has made a lot of organizational changes since becoming team pres.. Glad he decided to keep Perry at GM. They seem to make a good team.

Also I think despite Thibs not being a miracle worker he is a competent coach with a tried and true system...he will squeeze more out of this team than a Fiz or a Miller...let’s not forget that....

Still hate the Payton signing with us having Frank and DSJ, not unless we trade DSJ for a good player, this move is a head scratcher.

Yeah I'd hate to see Payton and Randle starting again, especially Randle. Payton I could see, but a better plan is to develop Barrett into the playmaker at SG with the eventual goal of putting Quickly there next to him. I think the Knicks targeted players they think can help right away, and I'd be surprised if Toppin isn't starting over Randle. The primary goal here is developing Barrett, Robinson, Toppin and Quickly.

There's more shooting here than last year. Quickly, Burks, Bullock, and Ellington can all shoot so there's always going to be a SG or SF than can shoot in the lineup. Toppin can also shoot. You always like to see more though.

unstopaball12 wrote:Still hate the Payton signing with us having Frank and DSJ, not unless we trade DSJ for a good player, this move is a head scratcher.

Cant say its because of Payton's familiarity with the offense. We have a new coach. My guess would be Payton's familiarity with some of the remaining players. He ran the old offense, he might help the team transition to a new offense more quickly.

For one year, its not a big gamble. And the contract will be easy to move, if we upgrade the position, or if Frank or DSjr really steps up.

The Payton signing is a signal that the Knicks plan to trade either Frank or DSJ now or at the deadline. That is the only way that signing makes sense. If we can turn DSJ into a high second round pick, I would do it now. The rest of the signings were solid small moves that improve our bench. I like this approach. Let’s running it back with the young guys and see what this team can really do under competent coaching.

TheGame wrote:The Payton signing is a signal that the Knicks plan to trade either Frank or DSJ now or at the deadline. That is the only way that signing makes sense. If we can turn DSJ into a high second round pick, I would do it now. The rest of the signings were solid small moves that improve our bench. I like this approach. Let’s running it back with the young guys and see what this team can really do under competent coaching.

I don’t necessarily see that..I see them needing a vet point...DJ got the bag so ruled him out and Teague probably wanted a winning situation if he was not going to get the bag...very simple...Payton came cheaper than what Mills signed him for...also we now have a competent coach which will make things better...I still don’t think Payton is starting...I think the FO wants to see what they have with Frank...DSJ...and Knox with competent coaching..

Bringing back Elfrid was really disappointing. I would have rather started DSJR try to inflate a little value and move him for a pick if he starts to show promise. Payton gives you what exactly, the 24 best starting point guard in the league?

I still think if we called the Suns and offered them the 23rd pick, two Dallas first rounders for the 10th pick they would have made the trade and we could have had Halliburton, especially since they passed on him and Vessel. It’s a lot to give up, but the excitement it would have brought to have another cornerstone and not have to watch Payton for another year would have shifted the trajectory of the franchise.

I am holding hope that the signing of payton is just an insurance. News came out that Frank is penciled to be this year's starting point guard during the mini training camp. At that time the point guard rotation is frank, dsj and payton. Now it basically the same pg rotation with the addition of quickley. Penciling frank as the starter might still be the case. I think the FO and coaches knows something we dont. The point guard is a very crucial position we had a chance to sign Agustin at the very least as a stop gap for this year but the opted not to. Maybe the coaching staff expect frank or DSJ to step up and take control of the team this year. Im hoping that is the case.

ekstarks94 wrote:

TheGame wrote:The Payton signing is a signal that the Knicks plan to trade either Frank or DSJ now or at the deadline. That is the only way that signing makes sense. If we can turn DSJ into a high second round pick, I would do it now. The rest of the signings were solid small moves that improve our bench. I like this approach. Let’s running it back with the young guys and see what this team can really do under competent coaching.

I don’t necessarily see that..I see them needing a vet point...DJ got the bag so ruled him out and Teague probably wanted a winning situation if he was not going to get the bag...very simple...Payton came cheaper than what Mills signed him for...also we now have a competent coach which will make things better...I still don’t think Payton is starting...I think the FO wants to see what they have with Frank...DSJ...and Knox with competent coaching..

I can see your point. Perhaps they are just trying to spend as little of the cap as possible to preserve their ability to leverage their cap space to facilitate trades for other teams and accumulate assets, which is the approach I have wanted the team to take for awhile. Overall, I like the moves as they indicate that the team is finally going to focus on developing the youth instead of pushing minutes on low tier vets just to try to win a few more games.

TheGame wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:

TheGame wrote:The Payton signing is a signal that the Knicks plan to trade either Frank or DSJ now or at the deadline. That is the only way that signing makes sense. If we can turn DSJ into a high second round pick, I would do it now. The rest of the signings were solid small moves that improve our bench. I like this approach. Let’s running it back with the young guys and see what this team can really do under competent coaching.

I don’t necessarily see that..I see them needing a vet point...DJ got the bag so ruled him out and Teague probably wanted a winning situation if he was not going to get the bag...very simple...Payton came cheaper than what Mills signed him for...also we now have a competent coach which will make things better...I still don’t think Payton is starting...I think the FO wants to see what they have with Frank...DSJ...and Knox with competent coaching..

I can see your point. Perhaps they are just trying to spend as little of the cap as possible to preserve their ability to leverage their cap space to facilitate trades for other teams and accumulate assets, which is the approach I have wanted the team to take for awhile. Overall, I like the moves as they indicate that the team is finally going to focus on developing the youth instead of pushing minutes on low tier vets just to try to win a few more games.

100% I think that the FA process shown us two things: 1) They are not going to be frivolous with the cap 2) They are betting on their coaches to make up a bit of the difference from an on the court perspective. I still think the team has less talent to run with the middle tier teams..but that is me looking at this now and for the past couple of years with bad coaching and lack of internal development....who knows with adequate coaching putting individual players in a position to succeed we may see our youngsters in a much different light outside of RJ and Mitch

i agree with the original post, which was a very good summary especially about letting FA come to them

i also agree with the post the Elf is a sign that Frank or DSJ is toast. IQ was drafted to play point, and i think he will be an exceptional complement for RJ. He can space floor and he can have RJ initiate the offense, but he can guard the point. think of someone probably less good on D than Frank but hitting all of the kinds of shots they need -- 3s floaters etc.

question: what is the penalty if you don't hit the cap floor? if it's just paying into some penalty kitty so be it. I'd rather have that then taking on a malcontent.

my guess is they went into FA to see if they could upgrade and win now but with a good deal of self-discipline. Failing that, they're going to use their space to absorb someones bad contract and get some assets. or worst case get Russ without selling the farm.

To me it’s really simple. They built out a pretty robust developmental staff. They are very focused on the draft. They hired a coach who’s got a history of players improving under him and win totals increasing. I think the FO wants to see how frank Knox DS Mitch look up close and with some better coaching before committing or dumping. I think that might go for Randle also. This FO just got here. The worst thing they could do is overlook talent that was buried by poor coaching in recent years. I don’t expect a ton of wins next year. Obi adds another blue chip piece and he Mitch and Rj are a nice start to a core. Let’s coach that up and build around that for now. Hopefully under Thibs another guy emerges. Knox, Frank, Iggy or even the DS dark horse. Quickly and DS make and intriguing combo and I could see them as an effective bench combo.

There are no financial commitments on this roster and there is def some talent worth working with. Everyone wants shiny new objects. We got one... Obi. Hopefully Thibs and his staff prove to be the same and that yields some of the guys I mentioned above blossoming under this staff

unstopaball12 wrote:Still hate the Payton signing with us having Frank and DSJ, not unless we trade DSJ for a good player, this move is a head scratcher.

It’s pretty simple to me: neither Frank nor DSJ are producing at an NBA level. Frank’s defense is great, but his offense is currently substandard. It’s robotic in nature for most part and he is averaging 6 pts on horrific shooting numbers which is unacceptable. DSJ is even worse because not only is his producing unacceptable, he can’t play defense and his shot looks FUCKED. It would be extremely irresponsible to go into this season with those two as our options though I’m rooting and banking on Frank making serious upgrades this season.

On the low the best PG might be Quickley..... and he played SG in college

ekstarks94 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:We have finally seen the Rose front office in full swing and I think so far we can make a few assumptions and observations;

The draft went according to plan and maybe even better. Obi and Quickley were clearly the 2 targets of this front office (LaMelo Ball notwithstanding) and they not only got Toppin but did so without having to make any moves, he fell in their lap. Big win for the front office so far. Then we got to free agency...

It’s hard to say at this point if this is how the front office planned it. They have been exceptionally quiet and we probably can assume that’s by design. It seems like they never even attempted a VanVleet deal, Gallinari, or any other semi-big assumed targets. Hayward was in play, but ultimately there’s no way they were going to pay him anything near what we got.

The knicks have made 3 boring moves so far. Burks while a boring acquisition is actually a very good pickup. He’s better than Bullock or Ellington and can shoot and make plays from the wing. The issue with him has always been health, but he’s low risk. Noel is a fine backup for Mitch. Payton coming back is a bit frustrating for me because of the lack of shooting, but my guess is he’s still a fail-safe for the team that doesn’t trust the other guards on the team.

So what does it all mean? Well the Knicks still have 25 mil or so in cap space if you count Payton or Noel having contracts that can be absorbed into the MLE after using up all the space. This front office seems to be doing 2 things; letting free agency come to them, but even more importantly, i think they are maintaining this flexibility for a big trade in the next week or so. Maybe Westbrook, Wall, or Rozier come to mind. Maybe there’s a couple surprise names out there that will come up. Or maybe this post will age poorly and the Knicks blow all this money some other way. But I expect the Knicks have held off on spending because something big is brewing.

My main concerns are bringing back Payton as a starter and still not addressing the shooting concerns. Maybe they feel like Burks, Bullock and Quickley on the wings, plus replacing Randle with Toppin at the 4 addresses the spacing issues, but doesn’t seem like enough. We will see. I think the main takeaway here is this cap space will likely be used and it may not be in free agency. We will see.

Great post...I also think based on what someone indicated on Twitter is that they can carry this cap space into the season and do not need to reach the “floor” until the end of the season...if they go this route the essentially become the bank or a clearinghouse for teams to make moves....if they can use this shrewdly they can pick up a few assets while maintaining a decent portion of the cap for 2021...

This is my thinking on it too. I think in general the Knicks are looking for cap flexibility the next two years so that when they have a chance to sign a real superstar they're in a good position to do so. They also accrued valuable draft capital the next two years. There's going to be some really talented prospects coming out and some star studded FA pools. Hopefully they will be in position to take advantage.