Knicks · Knick at Pistons, 12/13 7pm/MSG: The evil DET Empire returns after a decisive blow from OB1 & the plucky Knicks Republic (page 13)

blkexec wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:What I like in Quickley is how he's known for his shooting, which is why he got triple teamed. He showed you he's more than a stand in the corner type shooter.

Quickley, Burc, RJ, Randel and Noel

Since RJ and Randal play pt forward anyway. Quickley looks like he can bring the ball up as well, handling the triple team, and Burc is a compitent Vet with guard handles. Don't forget my sleeper in Myles, who hasn't played a game yet.

I think Payton was a panic move. Insurance, just in case we look foolish at PG. Well, we still look foolish, so might as well let the youngsters grab the wheel.

Quickley needs to show that he can do more than just bring the ball up...he has to be able to speed the ball up and create tempo. Hopefully he gets a longer look in the next two games so he can gain some confidence.

No he doesnt....If that was true, DSJ wouldn't get any burn. I say Quickley becasue he's a shooter in a PG body with PG defense. He's the perfect player to groom into a PG. DSJ has lost his scoring confidence which was his strength....without it, he's worse than Quickley and Frank. Hes not impacting the game consistently. Seen it last yr and now in preseason.

I agree about DSJ. I've never been a fan of his but I bite my tongue because he's here and maybe deserved the benefit of the doubt but, honestly he looks awful still.

blkexec wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:What I like in Quickley is how he's known for his shooting, which is why he got triple teamed. He showed you he's more than a stand in the corner type shooter.

Quickley, Burc, RJ, Randel and Noel

Since RJ and Randal play pt forward anyway. Quickley looks like he can bring the ball up as well, handling the triple team, and Burc is a compitent Vet with guard handles. Don't forget my sleeper in Myles, who hasn't played a game yet.

I think Payton was a panic move. Insurance, just in case we look foolish at PG. Well, we still look foolish, so might as well let the youngsters grab the wheel.

Quickley needs to show that he can do more than just bring the ball up...he has to be able to speed the ball up and create tempo. Hopefully he gets a longer look in the next two games so he can gain some confidence.

No he doesnt....If that was true, DSJ wouldn't get any burn. I say Quickley becasue he's a shooter in a PG body with PG defense. He's the perfect player to groom into a PG. DSJ has lost his scoring confidence which was his strength....without it, he's worse than Quickley and Frank. Hes not impacting the game consistently. Seen it last yr and now in preseason.

Wasn't disagreeing with you...my point is, Quick only 9 mins tonite against a team that was blitzing the PNR. Hopefully, he gets more burn where he can show he can push tempo and other pg elements that he didn't show tonight or for that matter, he didn't get a chance to show in Kentucky as he played off the ball. Thibs mentioned that he wants to get out in transition....

As far as Dennis is concerned, he's inside of his own head...I think he lost his confidence the moment we signed Payton. He looked better when we tarded for him and he started the 2nd half of the season...He may need a change of scenery. With that said, its only 2 pre season games so lets give it some time.

Man, I know it's early but I don't see too much of a difference in DSJr, Mitch, Knox. And Mitch holy crap with some of those fouls

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:What I like in Quickley is how he's known for his shooting, which is why he got triple teamed. He showed you he's more than a stand in the corner type shooter.

Quickley, Burc, RJ, Randel and Noel

Since RJ and Randal play pt forward anyway. Quickley looks like he can bring the ball up as well, handling the triple team, and Burc is a compitent Vet with guard handles. Don't forget my sleeper in Myles, who hasn't played a game yet.

I think Payton was a panic move. Insurance, just in case we look foolish at PG. Well, we still look foolish, so might as well let the youngsters grab the wheel.

Quickley needs to show that he can do more than just bring the ball up...he has to be able to speed the ball up and create tempo. Hopefully he gets a longer look in the next two games so he can gain some confidence.

No he doesnt....If that was true, DSJ wouldn't get any burn. I say Quickley becasue he's a shooter in a PG body with PG defense. He's the perfect player to groom into a PG. DSJ has lost his scoring confidence which was his strength....without it, he's worse than Quickley and Frank. Hes not impacting the game consistently. Seen it last yr and now in preseason.

Wasn't disagreeing with you...my point is, Quick only 9 mins tonite against a team that was blitzing the PNR. Hopefully, he gets more burn where he can show he can push tempo and other pg elements that he didn't show tonight or for that matter, he didn't get a chance to show in Kentucky as he played off the ball. Thibs mentioned that he wants to get out in transition....

As far as Dennis is concerned, he's inside of his own head...I think he lost his confidence the moment we signed Payton. He looked better when we tarded for him and he started the 2nd half of the season...He may need a change of scenery. With that said, its only 2 pre season games so lets give it some time.

If having to compete with Elfrid Payton is enough to cause a player to lose confidence, we might as well just waive the dude now. Where is he going to go where he'd have less competition for starting minutes?

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:What I like in Quickley is how he's known for his shooting, which is why he got triple teamed. He showed you he's more than a stand in the corner type shooter.

Quickley, Burc, RJ, Randel and Noel

Since RJ and Randal play pt forward anyway. Quickley looks like he can bring the ball up as well, handling the triple team, and Burc is a compitent Vet with guard handles. Don't forget my sleeper in Myles, who hasn't played a game yet.

I think Payton was a panic move. Insurance, just in case we look foolish at PG. Well, we still look foolish, so might as well let the youngsters grab the wheel.

Quickley needs to show that he can do more than just bring the ball up...he has to be able to speed the ball up and create tempo. Hopefully he gets a longer look in the next two games so he can gain some confidence.

No he doesnt....If that was true, DSJ wouldn't get any burn. I say Quickley becasue he's a shooter in a PG body with PG defense. He's the perfect player to groom into a PG. DSJ has lost his scoring confidence which was his strength....without it, he's worse than Quickley and Frank. Hes not impacting the game consistently. Seen it last yr and now in preseason.

Wasn't disagreeing with you...my point is, Quick only 9 mins tonite against a team that was blitzing the PNR. Hopefully, he gets more burn where he can show he can push tempo and other pg elements that he didn't show tonight or for that matter, he didn't get a chance to show in Kentucky as he played off the ball. Thibs mentioned that he wants to get out in transition....

As far as Dennis is concerned, he's inside of his own head...I think he lost his confidence the moment we signed Payton. He looked better when we tarded for him and he started the 2nd half of the season...He may need a change of scenery. With that said, its only 2 pre season games so lets give it some time.

If having to compete with Elfrid Payton is enough to cause a player to lose confidence, we might as well just waive the dude now. Where is he going to go where he'd have less competition for starting minutes?

Agreed. Considering that Frank finished the game and not Elf, that shouldn’t even be in DSJs mind. Maybe he’s just not good enough right now.

martin wrote:Man, I know it's early but I don't see too much of a difference in DSJr, Mitch, Knox. And Mitch holy crap with some of those fouls

Knox looked way better in game one, which makes this version today simply a regression to the same tentative and bad shot taking Knox we all know. If one preseason game was his whole renaissance, then what a waste.

We’ll see, but tonight was bad.

Because he doesn't put I enough work in the offseason, every season it's like watching Mitch start from scratch- likely we're in for another slow start from him.

Can't believe we have the same three bums at PG again this season- that was one thing I was sure we'd change this offseason. I think we have even less 3pt shooting too, which I didn't think was possible!

Think our best hope is have RJ at the 3 but really as the pg, and put Quickley at PG, then at least we have two 3pt shooters in the backcourt.

Glad it's a compressed, shortened season!

martin wrote:Man, I know it's early but I don't see too much of a difference in DSJr, Mitch, Knox. And Mitch holy crap with some of those fouls

Knox plays too fast and Dennis plays too slow...Knox is always in a rush and never lets the game come to him. On one of his air-balls, his feet wasn't even set before he launched one up. Dennis is thinking way too much. In his 4th year, this shouldn't be a problem...

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:What I like in Quickley is how he's known for his shooting, which is why he got triple teamed. He showed you he's more than a stand in the corner type shooter.

Quickley, Burc, RJ, Randel and Noel

Since RJ and Randal play pt forward anyway. Quickley looks like he can bring the ball up as well, handling the triple team, and Burc is a compitent Vet with guard handles. Don't forget my sleeper in Myles, who hasn't played a game yet.

I think Payton was a panic move. Insurance, just in case we look foolish at PG. Well, we still look foolish, so might as well let the youngsters grab the wheel.

Quickley needs to show that he can do more than just bring the ball up...he has to be able to speed the ball up and create tempo. Hopefully he gets a longer look in the next two games so he can gain some confidence.

No he doesnt....If that was true, DSJ wouldn't get any burn. I say Quickley becasue he's a shooter in a PG body with PG defense. He's the perfect player to groom into a PG. DSJ has lost his scoring confidence which was his strength....without it, he's worse than Quickley and Frank. Hes not impacting the game consistently. Seen it last yr and now in preseason.

Wasn't disagreeing with you...my point is, Quick only 9 mins tonite against a team that was blitzing the PNR. Hopefully, he gets more burn where he can show he can push tempo and other pg elements that he didn't show tonight or for that matter, he didn't get a chance to show in Kentucky as he played off the ball. Thibs mentioned that he wants to get out in transition....

As far as Dennis is concerned, he's inside of his own head...I think he lost his confidence the moment we signed Payton. He looked better when we tarded for him and he started the 2nd half of the season...He may need a change of scenery. With that said, its only 2 pre season games so lets give it some time.

If having to compete with Elfrid Payton is enough to cause a player to lose confidence, we might as well just waive the dude now. Where is he going to go where he'd have less competition for starting minutes?

Don't disagree with you. Dennis seems to be the type of player that needs coddling. He needs his coach to give him the ball and show complete confidence in him because he doesn't seem to have a ton of confidence in himself...Remember the issues he had in Dallas began when they took the ball from him and put it in Luka's hands...I could be wrong but its just an outside observation.

Chemistry right now is awful, compounded by a lot of players who can't or won't shoot. We sucked the first game too- just Pistons sucked more

Casey is a good coach. He packed it on a zone. We weren't rebounding and running well, and particularly DSJ is so disorganized and slow with the ball; we played right into that

Elfrid and DSJ simply can't shoot so they're tough to pair with this roster.

Bullock was sucking ass. Surprised we didn't see someone like Iggy or even Spellman spelling Mitch.

Our pg's inability or unwillingness to shoot creates huge issues on this roster.

Thibs is still talking up IQ. I suspect we'll see something like Elfrid start with IQ back up, Frank play more of a utility role.

Unless DSJ's rumored athleticism makes an appearance soon, he honestly should not be on the court. He needs to show he can make the defense collapse; if he can't do that, honestly what does he bring to the table

Nice game by Burks and RJ

smackeddog wrote:Because he doesn't put I enough work in the offseason, every season it's like watching Mitch start from scratch- likely we're in for another slow start from him.

Can't believe we have the same three bums at PG again this season- that was one thing I was sure we'd change this offseason. I think we have even less 3pt shooting too, which I didn't think was possible!

Think our best hope is have RJ at the 3 but really as the pg, and put Quickley at PG, then at least we have two 3pt shooters in the backcourt.

Glad it's a compressed, shortened season!

ordinarily i like RJ at the 2 as it plays into his bullyball style, but i can see what you're saying and can imagine RJ as primary ball handler at 3 with Burks and/o IQ hopefully providing some shooting. We don't have a lot of options at the moment

Chandler wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Because he doesn't put I enough work in the offseason, every season it's like watching Mitch start from scratch- likely we're in for another slow start from him.

Can't believe we have the same three bums at PG again this season- that was one thing I was sure we'd change this offseason. I think we have even less 3pt shooting too, which I didn't think was possible!

Think our best hope is have RJ at the 3 but really as the pg, and put Quickley at PG, then at least we have two 3pt shooters in the backcourt.

Glad it's a compressed, shortened season!

ordinarily i like RJ at the 2 as it plays into his bullyball style, but i can see what you're saying and can imagine RJ as primary ball handler at 3 with Burks and/o IQ hopefully providing some shooting. We don't have a lot of options at the moment

Im sure RJ can fill in at PG, in a pinch Dont believe he has the burst however, to be a starting PG.

Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:Geez, this might be the worst 3 point shooting team in Knicks history. But you know who can shoot threes? Cade Cunningham, that's who.

Next years pg will be one of Cade, Suggs or....Lonzo.

Lonzo please!

Its very early, but Smith jr. plays like he's "shook". I dont see any fire. He is passing better out of double teams, looks fit. Still can find teammates.

If the D is too stout to get to the rim, Id like to see him use his burst to find a hole in the D, and knock down a midrange jumper. Help draw out defenders, make it easier to find the bigs. He isnt doing anything to make the D respect his athleticism.

Seeing how DSJr elevated on a block attempt. How he got free for a midrange jumper (which he should keep doing) tells me Dennis still has has his athleticism. Looks like the older he gets the less he knows how to make use of it. Its perplexing. Hope Smith jr snaps out of it.

NYKBocker wrote:It's either they are showcasing DSJr or giving him rope to hang himself so he can't say anything when he gets benched

They're giving him a chance to prove he belongs. If he continues to look lost, I wouldn't be surprised if they put him on waivers.
Best cases for DSJ and the Knicks:
1) he has a breakout game and it's Linsanity over again - he takes reigns on the starting spot. (unlikely, but miracles occasionally happen!)
2) he gets traded and we pick up some assets
3) he gets waived and picked up - relieving us of our salary commitment
4) he gets waived and no one picks him up (at least he opens up a roster spot)
5) he gets bumped down to G-League and rehabs his game, comes back.

I don't see the Knicks holding on to him past this season unless #1 happens. He just doesn't have enough of the right skills for a modern PG/rotation player. At this phase, he's not decisive, doesn't shoot well, doesn't drive well, his handle is suspect and his passing doesn't have pinpoint accuracy. He doesn't have a great motor or bring an attack mentality to anchor a 2nd unit. If these skills are there (per his work with Abdul-Rauf), buddy's running out of time to showcase them.

Former lottery PGs tend to get a decent leash and get more chances to prove themselves:
Mudiay and Payton managed to get moved a bit at the end of their rookie contracts, leading to hopes we could find a trade partner and not lose him for nothing.
On the other hand, Trey Burke found himself without any takers and had to rebuild himself from scratch with the Knicks G-League team.

GustavBahler wrote:
Its very early, but Smith jr. plays like he's "shook". I dont see any fire. He is passing better out of double teams, looks fit. Still can find teammates.

If the D is too stout to get to the rim, Id like to see him use his burst to find a hole in the D, and knock down a midrange jumper. Help draw out defenders, make it easier to find the bigs. He isnt doing anything to make the D respect his athleticism.

Seeing how DSJr elevated on a block attempt. How he got free for a midrange jumper (which he should keep doing) tells me Dennis still has has his athleticism. Looks like the older he gets the less he knows how to make use of it. Its perplexing. Hope Smith jr snaps out of it.

Maybe his injuries have taken enough of a permanent toll to rob him of much of his athleticism. So he is good for a couple of elevations per game, but knows he no longer has it for a full game and now has become tentative. And has not yet learned how to play without his athletic edge.

Kinda like LJ, who got robbed of his hops, but to DSJr it happened earlier in his career, before he could develop other skills that would keep him effective in the league.

It would be very sad if it were indeed so.

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:Man, I know it's early but I don't see too much of a difference in DSJr, Mitch, Knox. And Mitch holy crap with some of those fouls

Knox plays too fast and Dennis plays too slow...Knox is always in a rush and never lets the game come to him. On one of his air-balls, his feet wasn't even set before he launched one up. Dennis is thinking way too much. In his 4th year, this shouldn't be a problem...

Dennis spent the entirety of his high school and 1 year at college physically dominating players and never had to really learn the game. And now it's almost too late

NYKBocker wrote:It's either they are showcasing DSJr or giving him rope to hang himself so he can't say anything when he gets benched

100%

And it's unfortunate because Frank is now defined into a secondary ball handler role off the bench, which actually may be his better role but holy cow they are babying DSJr

During the MSG telecast they mentioned that Denver was willing to match the contract of Jerami Grant (whether that is true or no a different story); I will never understand a player wanting to go to a team who will be rock bottom in the standings after making the WCF with a well defined role on the team playing next to 2 high level players.

Jerami is over-matched as a featured player, he is perfect has a high level role player

Uptown wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Uptown wrote:

blkexec wrote:What I like in Quickley is how he's known for his shooting, which is why he got triple teamed. He showed you he's more than a stand in the corner type shooter.

Quickley, Burc, RJ, Randel and Noel

Since RJ and Randal play pt forward anyway. Quickley looks like he can bring the ball up as well, handling the triple team, and Burc is a compitent Vet with guard handles. Don't forget my sleeper in Myles, who hasn't played a game yet.

I think Payton was a panic move. Insurance, just in case we look foolish at PG. Well, we still look foolish, so might as well let the youngsters grab the wheel.

Quickley needs to show that he can do more than just bring the ball up...he has to be able to speed the ball up and create tempo. Hopefully he gets a longer look in the next two games so he can gain some confidence.

No he doesnt....If that was true, DSJ wouldn't get any burn. I say Quickley becasue he's a shooter in a PG body with PG defense. He's the perfect player to groom into a PG. DSJ has lost his scoring confidence which was his strength....without it, he's worse than Quickley and Frank. Hes not impacting the game consistently. Seen it last yr and now in preseason.

Wasn't disagreeing with you...my point is, Quick only 9 mins tonite against a team that was blitzing the PNR. Hopefully, he gets more burn where he can show he can push tempo and other pg elements that he didn't show tonight or for that matter, he didn't get a chance to show in Kentucky as he played off the ball. Thibs mentioned that he wants to get out in transition....

As far as Dennis is concerned, he's inside of his own head...I think he lost his confidence the moment we signed Payton. He looked better when we tarded for him and he started the 2nd half of the season...He may need a change of scenery. With that said, its only 2 pre season games so lets give it some time.

If having to compete with Elfrid Payton is enough to cause a player to lose confidence, we might as well just waive the dude now. Where is he going to go where he'd have less competition for starting minutes?

Don't disagree with you. Dennis seems to be the type of player that needs coddling. He needs his coach to give him the ball and show complete confidence in him because he doesn't seem to have a ton of confidence in himself...Remember the issues he had in Dallas began when they took the ball from him and put it in Luka's hands...I could be wrong but its just an outside observation.

Then he also doesn't need to be in the NBA and I certain don't want him on the Knicks. This indicates to me he doesn't have the type of personality to deal with adversity, at least not on the court. So what happens during a big playoff game when things don't go his way? Is this the type of dude you want to hand over the keys to the franchise to?

martin wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:It's either they are showcasing DSJr or giving him rope to hang himself so he can't say anything when he gets benched

100%

And it's unfortunate because Frank is now defined into a secondary ball handler role off the bench, which actually may be his better role but holy cow they are babying DSJr

Something has to give. Because if this is their plan with Frank then they might as well trade him to the Warriors who showed interest (and probably have the perfect plan and style to utilize him)for a future asset.

So either they gotta clean up what’s in front or they should move him and get something.

We also seem to be running the same exact offensive sets as last year under Fiz. Looks like with the short camp and Thibs focusing on mostly defense. As well as the defensive coaches brought in and not many offensive minds. Will def look ugly for awhile offensively. If players hit some shots and outwork then they will pull off some quarters. But we aren’t gonna establish anything where we impose will with design.

Quickley’s staple is his jumper and is said to be one of the better shooters on the team. Thought we would see a play design or 2 when he came in to display that.

LEts start with the good........
RJ looked damn good tonite! We should be be happier with this level of play!!!
Quickly did not shit the bed when the doubled/tripled the ball! It was his first 9 minutes and already we “Quickly this.....Quickly that......”.
Noel is skinny, but he is better than Mitch for now. Its ok, let Mitch earn it.
Other than the fouls Mitch did not play that awful. I like his movement and aggressiveness at times.
Burkes was solid. He is our Mook. Just solid. Just what we need.
This game was winnable. Thibs needs to learn and extract after just a week with the team.

One more time. Take a breath and say “its just a week”!

Move on to the bad.
A loss is a loss but this was just a sloppy mess.
Frank got in foul trouble but he plays hard defense. He needs to shoot more but he is not given the ball.
Which segways to Randle and WTF he won’t pass to frank? Frank always makes the good pass. Maybe too much but he moves the ball. NOt Randle. for this, we could have bought back Melo and rolled our eyes at that.
Obi went to school last night. This won’t be the first night or the last time this happens. They were ready for him and that shooting was awful. Its ok. Its preseason.
Kevin, Two air balls right? Friday night was a better look. Eye test was better defense and movement. Thought some shots were a bit to forced. That’s because he did not hit them? LOL, I think he plays thru this and I’m hopeful in two months we like “Damn Klingon got this!”
Elf. Eh. Not a starter in the league.

The ugly.

Maybe Julius goes here? Thing is DSjr made it worse. He is trying on defense and he not bloody awful but he getting the rim and its like “oh shyt, this is not pick up in Los Angelos, these MOFu’s are LONG..........I’m waiting for an Ooooow, AAAAAAH moment. Give me a cross over, create space, a no look pass, anything to make me like you!!!!!! “Solid”? We got frank and Elf and btw Austin is coming off the bench and he can bring “solid” too. Dennis needs to get me off my chair and thats not happening. I’m sulking!!!

Reggie Bullock. LOoks skinny and was bricking.
Kevins air balls belong in he ugly.

Game was no blow out and its not like they did not try. Detroit is lotto bound.
For what its worth thats where we are going. Its one thing to know this but its another to experience it.
Losing sucks.