Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:franco12 wrote:Emmanual Mudiay still available? If Frank is health and can't get off the bench here, then we should do the smart thing and release him to create a roster spot.
Frank is paying the price for firing Leon Rose.
I just think they don’t think he’s very good at this point. He hasn’t added anything to his game since his rookie year.
You have a defensive coach and a defensive minded PG and they cannot find common ground. There is more to this than that. It has to do with Leon. He can’t get over his ego.
I don’t believe so. I think thibs likes his PGs to score and that’s Frank’s weakness. I think we have to assume Frank just doesn’t do anything that sets him apart from Payton and smith.
If you’re a 90’s Knick’s guy you will know that Charlie ward, Derek Harper, Doc Rivers Were not scoring PG but defensive pgs. Doc and Harper having similar size as Frank. And truth be told they were veterans on their last stints of the NBA. Frank in the other hand is still young and gives the same defensive efforts as this previously mentioned. So I find it hard to believe the TT can’t find use for a defensive minded PG like Frank. As for Rose he was rare talent and he was a scorer. But he had him on the T- Wolves and basically did nothing with him. Remember he ran his team into the ground.
Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:franco12 wrote:Emmanual Mudiay still available? If Frank is health and can't get off the bench here, then we should do the smart thing and release him to create a roster spot.
Frank is paying the price for firing Leon Rose.
I just think they don’t think he’s very good at this point. He hasn’t added anything to his game since his rookie year.
You have a defensive coach and a defensive minded PG and they cannot find common ground. There is more to this than that. It has to do with Leon. He can’t get over his ego.
I don’t believe so. I think thibs likes his PGs to score and that’s Frank’s weakness. I think we have to assume Frank just doesn’t do anything that sets him apart from Payton and smith.
that explains why he doesn't play ahead of those two, but not losing out to Burk as pg!
I can't believe this is a grudge. It has to be he just hasn't shown anything in practice, he is still young so maybe still something to develop.
But Frank had the greatest % chance of being both a star and a bust. Looking like bust right now.
Vmart wrote:Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:franco12 wrote:Emmanual Mudiay still available? If Frank is health and can't get off the bench here, then we should do the smart thing and release him to create a roster spot.
Frank is paying the price for firing Leon Rose.
I just think they don’t think he’s very good at this point. He hasn’t added anything to his game since his rookie year.
You have a defensive coach and a defensive minded PG and they cannot find common ground. There is more to this than that. It has to do with Leon. He can’t get over his ego.
I don’t believe so. I think thibs likes his PGs to score and that’s Frank’s weakness. I think we have to assume Frank just doesn’t do anything that sets him apart from Payton and smith.
If you’re a 90’s Knick’s guy you will know that Charlie ward, Derek Harper, Doc Rivers Were not scoring PG but defensive pgs. Doc and Harper having similar size as Frank. And truth be told they were veterans on their last stints of the NBA. Frank in the other hand is still young and gives the same defensive efforts as this previously mentioned. So I find it hard to believe the TT can’t find use for a defensive minded PG like Frank. As for Rose he was rare talent and he was a scorer. But he had him on the T- Wolves and basically did nothing with him. Remember he ran his team into the ground.
In the 90s pass first, defensive PGs were the norm. Now it’s about scoring and being a perimeter threat. Frank is a good defender but has never shown more than that. He may just end up as a Andre Roberson which on the right team is a rotation player. But we aren’t that team and he’s definitely not a PG at this point.
We haven’t had a consistently good pg in 20 years. Lin, Felton, Baron Davis, Billups, and Kidd all did small sample sizes of looking semi decent.
We got Quickley and the universe said “nope” and he got injured.....
wargames wrote:We haven’t had a consistently good pg in 20 years. Lin, Felton, Baron Davis, Billups, and Kidd all did small sample sizes of looking semi decent.We got Quickley and the universe said “nope” and he got injured.....
Just give it some time...
Vmart wrote:franco12 wrote:Emmanual Mudiay still available? If Frank is health and can't get off the bench here, then we should do the smart thing and release him to create a roster spot.
Frank is paying the price for firing Leon Rose.
2 minutes last night? I didn’t watch the game but I’m sure Payton was horrible again
franco12 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:franco12 wrote:Emmanual Mudiay still available? If Frank is health and can't get off the bench here, then we should do the smart thing and release him to create a roster spot.
Frank is paying the price for firing Leon Rose.
I just think they don’t think he’s very good at this point. He hasn’t added anything to his game since his rookie year.
You have a defensive coach and a defensive minded PG and they cannot find common ground. There is more to this than that. It has to do with Leon. He can’t get over his ego.
I don’t believe so. I think thibs likes his PGs to score and that’s Frank’s weakness. I think we have to assume Frank just doesn’t do anything that sets him apart from Payton and smith.
that explains why he doesn't play ahead of those two, but not losing out to Burk as pg!
I can't believe this is a grudge. It has to be he just hasn't shown anything in practice, he is still young so maybe still something to develop.
But Frank had the greatest % chance of being both a star and a bust. Looking like bust right now.
Frank isn't viewed as a PG. Its not Payton and Smith that he is competing against, even as bad as they have been. He's competing for G/F mins. Bullock got 27mins and scored 6 points. Which Frank would get knocked for. RJ was clearly off this game and got 37mins. Thibs could have easily shaved 12mins from Bullock and 7mins from RJ for Frank to get wing mins.
The reality also is that Frank is the only player on the roster that wasn't added by Perry or Rose. They have no allegiance to him. Which is sometimes how it works. But again why didn't they trade him then? I would hate to think they didn't trade him because they were concerned how it would look if they moved him for like 2 future 2nds and he ended up playing well on another team. So they hold on to him and keep him buried.
newyorknewyork wrote:
The reality also is that Frank is the only player on the roster that wasn't added by Perry or Rose. They have no allegiance to him. Which is sometimes how it works. But again why didn't they trade him then? I would hate to think they didn't trade him because they were concerned how it would look if they moved him for like 2 future 2nds and he ended up playing well on another team. So they hold on to him and keep him buried.
Rotations being decided by team managers' egos and allegiances is a recipe for disaster. I really hope the CAA firing story is not influencing Rose's thinking about Frank's future with the Knicks. If it is, then we are in a world of trouble, a petty man who puts his ego before the franchise will never bring success to the said franchise. And Leon has just been hired, so we would need to suffer at least three more years of this.
Now, if Frank's hugely limited playing time is truly just Thibs's decision, well, that is the coach's prerogative. I am just wondering why. For all his faults, Frank is way better than whatever Payton or DSJr have been demonstrating so far.
ESOMKnicks wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:
The reality also is that Frank is the only player on the roster that wasn't added by Perry or Rose. They have no allegiance to him. Which is sometimes how it works. But again why didn't they trade him then? I would hate to think they didn't trade him because they were concerned how it would look if they moved him for like 2 future 2nds and he ended up playing well on another team. So they hold on to him and keep him buried.
Rotations being decided by team managers' egos and allegiances is a recipe for disaster. I really hope the CAA firing story is not influencing Rose's thinking about Frank's future with the Knicks. If it is, then we are in a world of trouble, a petty man who puts his ego before the franchise will never bring success to the said franchise. And Leon has just been hired, so we would need to suffer at least three more years of this.
Now, if Frank's hugely limited playing time is truly just Thibs's decision, well, that is the coach's prerogative. I am just wondering why. For all his faults, Frank is way better than whatever Payton or DSJr have been demonstrating so far.
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.
Knicks lose. Throw out ideas like Teague that surely would work in concept because change is improvement.
Teague would look awful here.
Mudiay would look like Dennis.
Frank for what ever reason legit or not is not doing it.
One more time. Rivers is that improvement.
Trade the 2023 pick for a band aid? Not a good idea.
WE have Quickly and Rivers. Won’t help vs. the. Bucks. If you going to act like a GM at least pretend to understand the ramifications of the long term accountability.
Two game in we blasting Thibs? Think Leon is keeping frank from revenge?
newyorknewyork wrote:franco12 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:Knixkik wrote:Vmart wrote:franco12 wrote:Emmanual Mudiay still available? If Frank is health and can't get off the bench here, then we should do the smart thing and release him to create a roster spot.
Frank is paying the price for firing Leon Rose.
I just think they don’t think he’s very good at this point. He hasn’t added anything to his game since his rookie year.
You have a defensive coach and a defensive minded PG and they cannot find common ground. There is more to this than that. It has to do with Leon. He can’t get over his ego.
I don’t believe so. I think thibs likes his PGs to score and that’s Frank’s weakness. I think we have to assume Frank just doesn’t do anything that sets him apart from Payton and smith.
that explains why he doesn't play ahead of those two, but not losing out to Burk as pg!
I can't believe this is a grudge. It has to be he just hasn't shown anything in practice, he is still young so maybe still something to develop.
But Frank had the greatest % chance of being both a star and a bust. Looking like bust right now.
Frank isn't viewed as a PG. Its not Payton and Smith that he is competing against, even as bad as they have been. He's competing for G/F mins. Bullock got 27mins and scored 6 points. Which Frank would get knocked for. RJ was clearly off this game and got 37mins. Thibs could have easily shaved 12mins from Bullock and 7mins from RJ for Frank to get wing mins.
The reality also is that Frank is the only player on the roster that wasn't added by Perry or Rose. They have no allegiance to him. Which is sometimes how it works. But again why didn't they trade him then? I would hate to think they didn't trade him because they were concerned how it would look if they moved him for like 2 future 2nds and he ended up playing well on another team. So they hold on to him and keep him buried.
This. That is exactly the Frank problem. Yet many do not even recognize it and use coaches, FO and the universe as reasons why Frank does not play. Fact is he is more like a SG or SF. But only problem is that he CAN'T shoot. He is not a PG that most coaches are going to want running the point. He rarely looks to create. For others or himself. He does not break down defenses. He CAN'T shoot. His best asset on offense is a swing pass. Think the Knicks have tried to trade him but other coaches and FO's see the same problem. They say to themselves, this kid can play some defense but where do we stick him so he does not affect the offensive flow? And this is the NBA. Offense is everything.
I really do not see what everyone is complaining about though. Smith and Noel were the only plus players in last nights game. 
For the record, I preferred giving Smith and Frank the confident nod at PG this year. Think they need plenty of minutes to improve. As Payton is finding out, it is hard to play with one eye on the court and the other on the sidelines wondering if you are getting pulled on the next missed shot. Signing Payton and every other sub level PG has surely not helped Frank and Smith with their confidence.
newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.
Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.
ESOMKnicks wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.
Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.
This is the crux of the matter. Frank is a combo guard playing for yet another myopic coach and staff who want him to be what they want him to be instead of what he is.
And all Knicks fans *know* the rhetoric about "earning" playing time is bullshit. There is no way that Frank, given the same minutes as all of the Rose Garden's pawn guards would not do better.
I don't give a rat's blowhole what these guys look like in practice if they look like steaming crap in a real game. We can spin fantasies about dream PGs all we like but until that hell freezes over - ah, hem PLAY NTILIKINA! WTF do you have to lose??????
Thibs won't though. The FO fear is that Frank *is* the answer and they don't want it to be. No this isn't some crazy conspiracy theory. Rebuilding the FO was the right thing to do. Building a myopic, group-think cohort of coaches and scouts is not diversity in thinking, its a recipe for an echo chamber.
ESOMKnicks wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.
Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.
Wasn’t he shooting really well towards the end of last season? Or I should say when Covid shut everything down. If I remember correctly he was nailing corner threes as a really high rate or something to that nature as well. The PGs skills he would need to develop given the makeup of the roster is greater than the ability to hit 3s and play defense and be a 2ndary ball handler.
newyorknewyork wrote:ESOMKnicks wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.
Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.
Wasn’t he shooting really well towards the end of last season? Or I should say when Covid shut everything down. If I remember correctly he was nailing corner threes as a really high rate or something to that nature as well. The PGs skills he would need to develop given the makeup of the roster is greater than the ability to hit 3s and play defense and be a 2ndary ball handler.
He's actually a decent shooter who simply isn't shooting a lot. Paired with (Dotson last year), Quickly, Burks, or Rivers the shooting becomes complementary - let shooters shoot.
From the corner, he's the Dentist's younger brother.
What's most disingenuous about the Ntilikina narrative is that Thibs and staff claim to have magical teaching skills for DSJ, Payton, et al and not a word about picking any one thing that would improve Frankie's game contribution at PG. WTF? Why are wash-outs so much more salvageable than the guard who already has shut down Irving and Dontic and...
Its absurd.
At this point it's fair to just use a combination of Frank, DSJ and quickly give them a each a 10 game trial as the main option. I'm very confident that Frank and DSJ aren't the answer and won't be for other teams. Hopefully Quickly pans out into something good. But at least we can then just cut/ship Frank/DSJ and Payton.
You can argue that Frank has defense, but honestly that's like telling me that a bicycle has a great seat but one of the wheels doesn't turn right. There are plenty of guys with great atheleticism that don't pan out. DSJ hasn't really shown the ability to play the game even with those advantages.
Is this thread a joke?
If we only have a decent PG and he is injured, of course we will play with no PG.
Can’t believe how low have Payton and DSJr fallen that Burks gets time at PG. DSJr might be my biggest disappointment because Payton is a backup at best.
If there is justice in the world, the Mavs pick turns into a lottery pick this season because nobody expected DSJr to turn into absolutely nothing.
Knicksfan wrote:Is this thread a joke?If we only have a decent PG and he is injured, of course we will play with no PG.
Can’t believe how low have Payton and DSJr fallen that Burks gets time at PG. DSJr might be my biggest disappointment because Payton is a backup at best.
If there is justice in the world, the Mavs pick turns into a lottery pick this season because nobody expected DSJr to turn into absolutely nothing.
Is this post a joke?
I absolutely expected DSJ to turn into nothing.
fwk00 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:ESOMKnicks wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.
Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.
Wasn’t he shooting really well towards the end of last season? Or I should say when Covid shut everything down. If I remember correctly he was nailing corner threes as a really high rate or something to that nature as well. The PGs skills he would need to develop given the makeup of the roster is greater than the ability to hit 3s and play defense and be a 2ndary ball handler.
He's actually a decent shooter who simply isn't shooting a lot. Paired with (Dotson last year), Quickly, Burks, or Rivers the shooting becomes complementary - let shooters shoot.
From the corner, he's the Dentist's younger brother.
What's most disingenuous about the Ntilikina narrative is that Thibs and staff claim to have magical teaching skills for DSJ, Payton, et al and not a word about picking any one thing that would improve Frankie's game contribution at PG. WTF? Why are wash-outs so much more salvageable than the guard who already has shut down Irving and Dontic and...
Its absurd.
fwk00 - you the truth man...
Knickfury11 wrote:fwk00 wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:ESOMKnicks wrote:newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.
Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.
Wasn’t he shooting really well towards the end of last season? Or I should say when Covid shut everything down. If I remember correctly he was nailing corner threes as a really high rate or something to that nature as well. The PGs skills he would need to develop given the makeup of the roster is greater than the ability to hit 3s and play defense and be a 2ndary ball handler.
He's actually a decent shooter who simply isn't shooting a lot. Paired with (Dotson last year), Quickly, Burks, or Rivers the shooting becomes complementary - let shooters shoot.
From the corner, he's the Dentist's younger brother.
What's most disingenuous about the Ntilikina narrative is that Thibs and staff claim to have magical teaching skills for DSJ, Payton, et al and not a word about picking any one thing that would improve Frankie's game contribution at PG. WTF? Why are wash-outs so much more salvageable than the guard who already has shut down Irving and Dontic and...
Its absurd.
fwk00 - you the truth man...
Thanks.
The NBA is one of the few professional enterprises that thinks nothing of compounding conflict of interest with competitive consequence.
The smell of Ntilikina being jerked around because of his agent or who drafted him, or where he went to school and so on is just nightmarish.
Like the Rolling Stones tune "You can't always get what you want (sometimes you get what you need)" says the coaching staff needs to be open minded enough to have the imagination that what they might ideally want isn't in the cupboard so make do.
The lie that Ntilikina could possibly be worse in practice than what we see with our own eyes from Payton, DSJ, Bullock and others is insulting.
Not only that but the fan base doesn't mind losing if we look like we are developing a likeable group of players. Who here owns a Payton jersey? DSJ? Bullock?....
Jesus. How self-evident can the disconnect between fans and team become? Miller had the team playing very well and in concert. I want that back.
