Knicks · Thibs' handling of Obi Toppin (page 2)
blkexec wrote:Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
With Thibs as coach and Rose as Prez, Randle isn't going anywhere. He's 26, a developing star, played at Kentucky, and is CAA. Knicks are moving towards win-now and not looking for a restart after the year he's having.
Whats your source? Or are you speculating? Because if anybody can be traded. Regardless of age or performance. It all depends on how they view obi. If he's longterm. Then will will play behind Randle like Aaron Roger's did for years in Greenway.
You can still trade Randle, as long as it fills a need, while making room for obi to get more minutes.
why are you trading Randle?
I understand Why some fan always want to trade our best player for draft projects.
knicks1248 wrote:blkexec wrote:Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
With Thibs as coach and Rose as Prez, Randle isn't going anywhere. He's 26, a developing star, played at Kentucky, and is CAA. Knicks are moving towards win-now and not looking for a restart after the year he's having.
Whats your source? Or are you speculating? Because if anybody can be traded. Regardless of age or performance. It all depends on how they view obi. If he's longterm. Then will will play behind Randle like Aaron Roger's did for years in Greenway.
You can still trade Randle, as long as it fills a need, while making room for obi to get more minutes.
why are you trading Randle?
I understand Why some fan always want to trade our best player for draft projects.
He's not saying trade Randle, he's saying it's an option. We might end up trading Obi. It's still early and you have to keep your mind open to the possibilities. This is roster has a ways to go still.
BigDaddyG wrote:knicks1248 wrote:blkexec wrote:Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
With Thibs as coach and Rose as Prez, Randle isn't going anywhere. He's 26, a developing star, played at Kentucky, and is CAA. Knicks are moving towards win-now and not looking for a restart after the year he's having.
Whats your source? Or are you speculating? Because if anybody can be traded. Regardless of age or performance. It all depends on how they view obi. If he's longterm. Then will will play behind Randle like Aaron Roger's did for years in Greenway.
You can still trade Randle, as long as it fills a need, while making room for obi to get more minutes.
why are you trading Randle?
I understand Why some fan always want to trade our best player for draft projects.
He's not saying trade Randle, he's saying it's an option. We might end up trading Obi. It's still early and you have to keep your mind open to the possibilities. This is roster has a ways to go still.
The roster has a ways to go, but trading Randle would be going backwards in any scenario. Randle is not going to part of a package for a bigger star. Trading Randle would mean trying to accumulate more draft assets.
Sometimes the best player is not the problem but can still be a part of working toward the solution. I'd be fine with taking our deserved lumps and trying to win 30-32 games this year if the style of play looked solid thinking long-term. Randle is a workhorse and may even make the All-Star team this season. Does anybody here really see him as an All-Star? I remember Starks made the All-Star one season and while he was the heart and soul and an overachiever - he was no All-Star.
Evaluating and forecasting is critical to continued progress and while it feels good to finally not suck after the first 20 games of the season - the path we would have to take to fully surround Randle with what's needed would require so much more (with this current roster construction) compared to shifting the play style by moving him IMO. If we stay on the Randle path - we should probably consider selling high on Toppin and maybe even Mitch - you can't have your main player be inconsistent from outside and not have knockdown shooters at most of the other/remaining positions and be successful these days.
knicks1248 wrote:blkexec wrote:Knixkik wrote:Philc1 wrote:Knixkik wrote:Yeah I think Randle is here to stay. Why would the Knicks move him ? Which is why I’m trying to figure out how Toppin becomes a 6th man. That’s his path right now.Randle is excellent trade bait next summer
Obi is the future at PF
With Thibs as coach and Rose as Prez, Randle isn't going anywhere. He's 26, a developing star, played at Kentucky, and is CAA. Knicks are moving towards win-now and not looking for a restart after the year he's having.
Whats your source? Or are you speculating? Because if anybody can be traded. Regardless of age or performance. It all depends on how they view obi. If he's longterm. Then will will play behind Randle like Aaron Roger's did for years in Greenway.
You can still trade Randle, as long as it fills a need, while making room for obi to get more minutes.
why are you trading Randle?
I understand Why some fan always want to trade our best player for draft projects.
He said “if it fills a need”. Reading is fundamental..
Would prefer to see Randle's minutes reduced, dont like Thibs relying too much on his core. But Im all for Randle getting the bulk of the minutes between the two. All our young players will benefit from playoff experience.
Randle playing well in a series would raise his trade value even above what it is now as a potential All-Star. Obi shows he is ready to start, we could get a very nice deal for Randle.
All depends on Obi continuing to make progress, off the bench. If we get an upgrade at PG, Obi taking the next step in his game, could come sooner rather than later.
Thibs is trying to win.
Nalod wrote:As said by others, IQ playing with Obi might be better for both. Randle has the ball a lot and IQ needs it more. Obi creating his own shot at this juncture is not easy for him. Reminds me of the worst of Amare’s game. With Nash, it was the best part. Obi has a nice outside shot and interior game.
Thibs is trying to win.
I agree with this. My excitement about Obi is more about the hope that he will be NY's salvation. The reality is that he is a young player that is growing with this team and has a lot of upside but needs to learn and improve on defense. Also, his outside shot isn't really where we expected it to be. So, I'd love to see him earn more minutes, but he has to earn them and take them from Randle. And Randle doesn't want to give them up...
Randle performance at both position has not been a good mentor for the improvement of the Knicks PG, nor SF-Knox, nor rookie PF OBI.
Randle is having a double-double stat season by averaging 37 minute per game, being the first-option on offense for the Knick team in his 2nd season. Some may say Randle is having a ALL-Star season, I say differ.
I have not forgot Randle & Barrett's 21-45 record last season. They hav'nt lost half of their bad individual habits.
Kemet wrote:Point Forward? or Power Forward? Randle performance gets a C- minus at both positions.
Randle performance at both position has not been a good mentor for the improvement of the Knicks PG, nor SF-Knox, nor rookie PF OBI.
Randle is having a double-double stat season by averaging 37 minute per game, being the first-option on offense for the Knick team in his 2nd season. Some may say Randle is having a ALL-Star season, I say differ.
I have not forgot Randle & Barrett's 21-45 record last season. They hav'nt lost half of their bad individual habits.
Randle has been playing point forward out of necessity. Randle stepped up and kick-started the offense early on. Should get credit for that. Has led by example. Randle's "spinovers" were well documented. Came back the following season and has cut down on them dramatically. Thats setting an example as well.
Ideally Randle wouldnt have this much responsibilty for the offense. An upgrade at starting PG would take care of that pretty fast. Randle is having a career year, playing like an All-Star, sharing the rock. No complaints here.
GustavBahler wrote:Kemet wrote:Point Forward? or Power Forward? Randle performance gets a C- minus at both positions.
Randle performance at both position has not been a good mentor for the improvement of the Knicks PG, nor SF-Knox, nor rookie PF OBI.
Randle is having a double-double stat season by averaging 37 minute per game, being the first-option on offense for the Knick team in his 2nd season. Some may say Randle is having a ALL-Star season, I say differ.
I have not forgot Randle & Barrett's 21-45 record last season. They hav'nt lost half of their bad individual habits.Randle has been playing point forward out of necessity. Randle stepped up and kick-started the offense early on. Should get credit for that. Has led by example. Randle's "spinovers" were well documented. Came back the following season and has cut down on them dramatically. Thats setting an example as well.
Ideally Randle wouldnt have this much responsibilty for the offense. An upgrade at starting PG would take care of that pretty fast. Randle is having a career year, playing like an All-Star, sharing the rock. No complaints here.
As much as I'm not a fan of Randle - his larger role and increased minutes is likely a result of our limited talent and a coach who's known for only playing 7-8 lots of minutes. Randle is simply taking advantage of what's being offered to him. I agree that his flaws are still there, and that his assists have gone up due to increased usage and the additions of Burks, Bullock (and RJ playing better then last season). He's not a bad mentor and as much as I'd like to give Toppin more playing time - Toppin would likely struggle early on and take his rookie lumps. I do hope we make room for Toppin since we drafted him - and don't know how that would happen as long as Randle and Mitch are the starters.
jskinny35 wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Kemet wrote:Point Forward? or Power Forward? Randle performance gets a C- minus at both positions.
Randle performance at both position has not been a good mentor for the improvement of the Knicks PG, nor SF-Knox, nor rookie PF OBI.
Randle is having a double-double stat season by averaging 37 minute per game, being the first-option on offense for the Knick team in his 2nd season. Some may say Randle is having a ALL-Star season, I say differ.
I have not forgot Randle & Barrett's 21-45 record last season. They hav'nt lost half of their bad individual habits.Randle has been playing point forward out of necessity. Randle stepped up and kick-started the offense early on. Should get credit for that. Has led by example. Randle's "spinovers" were well documented. Came back the following season and has cut down on them dramatically. Thats setting an example as well.
Ideally Randle wouldnt have this much responsibilty for the offense. An upgrade at starting PG would take care of that pretty fast. Randle is having a career year, playing like an All-Star, sharing the rock. No complaints here.
As much as I'm not a fan of Randle - his larger role and increased minutes is likely a result of our limited talent and a coach who's known for only playing 7-8 lots of minutes. Randle is simply taking advantage of what's being offered to him. I agree that his flaws are still there, and that his assists have gone up due to increased usage and the additions of Burks, Bullock (and RJ playing better then last season). He's not a bad mentor and as much as I'd like to give Toppin more playing time - Toppin would likely struggle early on and take his rookie lumps. I do hope we make room for Toppin since we drafted him - and don't know how that would happen as long as Randle and Mitch are the starters.
Not all players share the rock more as their usage increases. Just glad Randle is doing it. Believe his leadership is being undersold. Not a contract year to attribute his improved play. Randle has stepped up.
The big picture of what we're seeing is that there is tons of effort and tangible player development from Barrett, Randle and Robinson and that game to game we experience the inconsistencies of a young team. With Coach thibs it's pretty straightforward: the players that give him the best chance to win are going to play no matter what, and the other guys really aren't going to.
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Things like this are so unacceptable to me and it happens way too often.
TPercy wrote:Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/scoreboard_us/status/1358510685433389056?s=21
Click here to view the TweetThings like this are so unacceptable to me and it happens way too often.
YES. And I could be wrong on this, but it was IQ who had ball and couldn't find him. Very frustrating to watch.
And this is why IQ is still a long way from starting IMHO
martin wrote:TPercy wrote:Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/scoreboard_us/status/1358510685433389056?s=21
Click here to view the TweetThings like this are so unacceptable to me and it happens way too often.
YES. And I could be wrong on this, but it was IQ who had ball and couldn't find him. Very frustrating to watch.
And this is why IQ is still a long way from starting IMHO
Yes IQ and Rivers are huge culprits of this. IQ finds him occasionally but a proper PG would relish having Mitch and Obi as long targets. I’m not sure Rivers has ever found him.
TPercy wrote:martin wrote:TPercy wrote:Javascript is not enabled or there was problem with the URL: https://twitter.com/scoreboard_us/status/1358510685433389056?s=21
Click here to view the TweetThings like this are so unacceptable to me and it happens way too often.
YES. And I could be wrong on this, but it was IQ who had ball and couldn't find him. Very frustrating to watch.
And this is why IQ is still a long way from starting IMHO
Yes IQ and Rivers are huge culprits of this. IQ finds him occasionally but a proper PG would relish having Mitch and Obi as long targets. I’m not sure Rivers has ever found him.
Yeah. Rivers is more of a SG who can get hot occasionally.
Rose is more of an iso PG who is in constant attack mode but feel like he breaks defenses down more often and gets to rim and hopefully knows how to engage the big men when they are near the rim.
In the very least: He is no worse that DSJr
Kemet wrote:Point Forward? or Power Forward? Randle performance gets a C- minus at both positions.
Randle performance at both position has not been a good mentor for the improvement of the Knicks PG, nor SF-Knox, nor rookie PF OBI.
Randle is having a double-double stat season by averaging 37 minute per game, being the first-option on offense for the Knick team in his 2nd season. Some may say Randle is having a ALL-Star season, I say differ.
I have not forgot Randle & Barrett's 21-45 record last season. They hav'nt lost half of their bad individual habits.
Duuuuude. Randle's game has really evolved this season. Do you even watch the games? Last year teams would double him and he would do a spinover. That ish is gone from his game now. The only big man in the league that is better at what Ju does is The Joker. Who is having himself an MVP season. Just let that sink in for a second. These are not empty stats. It's resulting in wins
Knixkik wrote:Obviously we are all ecstatic of Randle's progress and as a player who just turned 26 and is showing all-star production, we would be crazy not to keep him long-term as a foundational piece. But obviously it does create some concerns around Toppin, as their skillsets do overlap. I am encouraged that they can play together though, because both are skilled passers and are improving outside shooters. It's not a natural fit, but it can work. But eventually (not now) Thibs is going to have to let it loose, because using Toppin exclusively as a Randle backup can't last forever.I mentioned this previously, I don't understand this obsession with just giving rookies X number of minutes regardless of whether they earned it or not. We're only 20+ games into the dude's career. What is the rush with Toppin? I suspect what is likely to happen is Obi's first season will be a roller coaster ride, he puts in mega work in the off-season and comes to camp next season leaner and more mobile, and THEN you'll see the minutes and production begin to grow.Noel is a solid backup to Robinson, but I think when the team is fully healthy, he needs to be removed from the regular rotation. Here's why;
C M Robinson 30 mpg
PF J Randle 36 mpg
SF RJ Barrett 36 mpgThis seems like the sort of minutes Thibs is settling into with these guys. That leaves 42 front court minutes available per game.
Toppin 24 mpg would put Randle at center for 18 mpg (exactly 1/2 of his minutes.)
Knox 18 mpg would give him the remaining of those minutes as a 3pt sniper and would be 12 mpg as the backup SF and the remaining minutes at PF in a smallball line-up.
Unless the plan is to play Toppin some minutes at the SF, which I don't see defensively as a good option, this is really the only solution going forward. Noel, or another player like him, would have to be ok with just spot minutes in case of foul trouble or injury. But getting Toppin 24 mpg at a minimum has to be the plan eventually. Toppin is a rookie who didn't have a summer league so there is time to let this sort itself out, but he's a 22 (almost 23) year old player who needs to eventually be allowed to contribute and this is the way I see it as possible. But Thibs will have to be ok with not having a defensive anchor at center 48 mpg.
But for now, he's in a good spot. Randle is balling so no pressure to perform right out the box. He said himself that he and Randle spend a lot of time together watching video and learning to be a pro. Just be patient with Obi.
Welpee wrote:Knixkik wrote:Obviously we are all ecstatic of Randle's progress and as a player who just turned 26 and is showing all-star production, we would be crazy not to keep him long-term as a foundational piece. But obviously it does create some concerns around Toppin, as their skillsets do overlap. I am encouraged that they can play together though, because both are skilled passers and are improving outside shooters. It's not a natural fit, but it can work. But eventually (not now) Thibs is going to have to let it loose, because using Toppin exclusively as a Randle backup can't last forever.I mentioned this previously, I don't understand this obsession with just giving rookies X number of minutes regardless of whether they earned it or not. We're only 20+ games into the dude's career. What is the rush with Toppin? I suspect what is likely to happen is Obi's first season will be a roller coaster ride, he puts in mega work in the off-season and comes to camp next season leaner and more mobile, and THEN you'll see the minutes and production begin to grow.Noel is a solid backup to Robinson, but I think when the team is fully healthy, he needs to be removed from the regular rotation. Here's why;
C M Robinson 30 mpg
PF J Randle 36 mpg
SF RJ Barrett 36 mpgThis seems like the sort of minutes Thibs is settling into with these guys. That leaves 42 front court minutes available per game.
Toppin 24 mpg would put Randle at center for 18 mpg (exactly 1/2 of his minutes.)
Knox 18 mpg would give him the remaining of those minutes as a 3pt sniper and would be 12 mpg as the backup SF and the remaining minutes at PF in a smallball line-up.
Unless the plan is to play Toppin some minutes at the SF, which I don't see defensively as a good option, this is really the only solution going forward. Noel, or another player like him, would have to be ok with just spot minutes in case of foul trouble or injury. But getting Toppin 24 mpg at a minimum has to be the plan eventually. Toppin is a rookie who didn't have a summer league so there is time to let this sort itself out, but he's a 22 (almost 23) year old player who needs to eventually be allowed to contribute and this is the way I see it as possible. But Thibs will have to be ok with not having a defensive anchor at center 48 mpg.
But for now, he's in a good spot. Randle is balling so no pressure to perform right out the box. He said himself that he and Randle spend a lot of time together watching video and learning to be a pro. Just be patient with Obi.
Knicks fans are just hungry for a “Rookie Sensation”. IQ mania gives us hope and we thirst for more. Fans want IQ to not just start, but play every minute if it helps..........
But it don’t. Thibs gave IQ a chance and he is doing great. Sometimes we think we are holding them back.
OBI for obvious reasons had some conditioning issues and thus got hurt. I’m sure everyone including Randle would like OBI to Earn more minutes and help Randle reduce his time.
How has he handled it? Not sure we know all the facts to fairly judge. I guess soon we can do half season “Letter Grades”.....LOL. As if W-L records don’t speak loud enough.