Knicks · Knicks interested in D. Rose....Again! (page 14)

GustavBahler @ 2/7/2021 10:57 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:

If we dont add another PG, sounds like Rose is starting. We'll see how much RJ touches the ball, if thats the case. How much it cuts into Quickley's minutes.

Doubt Thibs is ready to start Quickley. Payton is a better defender than Rose.

Knicksfan @ 2/8/2021 4:29 AM
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:Still, you avoid the real issue now: Rose IS a threat at Quickley’s minutes and if you think that if Payton and Rose play well they deserve to get playing time, you are just as shortsighted as Thibs. Yes, let’s win as much as we can, but if that will hurt the development on our young players then we are doing it wrong.

I don't see it as a threat but more like healthy competition and a heavily experienced vet that knows how to do things but maybe can't at the level he once did and can impart that on IQ, both through competition and just showing up to work with him every day. Film. Off day work. Everything.

IQ is a learner, he goes and watches a vet like Kawhi work out before a game. I'd guess the calculation is that he will do the same with Rose. Rivers doesn't cut it. And obviously Payton didn't either.

In the big picture, even if IQ's minutes are cut by a couple (and we don't know that for sure), the value of his time next to a high level vet is invaluable and that's the argument and reasoning Thibs and FO settled on.

The minutes distribution is just a distraction and maybe one minus of it all.

There is a solid misunderstanding or bias that has been at play when Thibs showed up:

- He only plays vets
- He won't give young guys minutes
- He will only have an 8 man rotation
- His coaching style is long forgotten and he hasn't kept up with the modern game

FO has already picked Thibs coaching staff or helped fill it out. They gave him a young team. There were ZERO players over 30 at the season's start.

Thibs has broken most of the preconceptions most have had about him. He has not really brought in all his vets. Knicks brought in Taj when it was obvious they needed a 3rd string C and he has not at all taken minutes away from Robinson and really was already here last year and there was a good chance he would re-sign. The Knicks SUCK ASS on offense and they are bringing in someone to help in that area.

I’d sign up for this if it’s the way it goes down. I’ll admit that Thibs hasn’t been strictly as advertised because Knox had his chance early on, Quickly hasn’t left the rotation and Obi is being brought up slowly but has been there. But you can still see some signs of those bias too, as Knox is already out of the rotation, Frank hasn’t seemed to have a chance with the sometimes suspicious injuries, Obi is sometimes taken out the moment he gets in the rhythm of the game and Quickley, after consistent 25+ minutes games, has seen his time slightly reduced. And I understand going with the hot hand in Payton lately, but the youth bias can be seen the moment the young player is the hot hand, he is gone. Hey, I’ve seen it so I will call it.

Still, if this is the way it plays out, I’m good. I’m even good if Rose starts and Quick keeps getting consistent minutes on the second unit because his progress is my main worry. I love the Knicks winning and want them to continue winning as much as they can, but I think player development is as important and while Quick is a positive story on that, Knox and Frank are not. Many things could be happening off camera, especially with Frank, but the worry remains.

The Rose move doesn’t help the situation much, as it’s a reminder that Thibs isn’t fully away from his stubborn self who prefers to go after his past players and then use them for heavy minutes. The worry is real, as many media outlets have focused on the move being good as long as it doesn’t affect Quickley’s playing time. Hopefully Payton is moved and this is a non issue, but I’m not so sure with Thibs in control.

Welpee @ 2/8/2021 7:11 AM
Knicksfan wrote:
martin wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:Still, you avoid the real issue now: Rose IS a threat at Quickley’s minutes and if you think that if Payton and Rose play well they deserve to get playing time, you are just as shortsighted as Thibs. Yes, let’s win as much as we can, but if that will hurt the development on our young players then we are doing it wrong.

I don't see it as a threat but more like healthy competition and a heavily experienced vet that knows how to do things but maybe can't at the level he once did and can impart that on IQ, both through competition and just showing up to work with him every day. Film. Off day work. Everything.

IQ is a learner, he goes and watches a vet like Kawhi work out before a game. I'd guess the calculation is that he will do the same with Rose. Rivers doesn't cut it. And obviously Payton didn't either.

In the big picture, even if IQ's minutes are cut by a couple (and we don't know that for sure), the value of his time next to a high level vet is invaluable and that's the argument and reasoning Thibs and FO settled on.

The minutes distribution is just a distraction and maybe one minus of it all.

There is a solid misunderstanding or bias that has been at play when Thibs showed up:

- He only plays vets
- He won't give young guys minutes
- He will only have an 8 man rotation
- His coaching style is long forgotten and he hasn't kept up with the modern game

FO has already picked Thibs coaching staff or helped fill it out. They gave him a young team. There were ZERO players over 30 at the season's start.

Thibs has broken most of the preconceptions most have had about him. He has not really brought in all his vets. Knicks brought in Taj when it was obvious they needed a 3rd string C and he has not at all taken minutes away from Robinson and really was already here last year and there was a good chance he would re-sign. The Knicks SUCK ASS on offense and they are bringing in someone to help in that area.

I’d sign up for this if it’s the way it goes down. I’ll admit that Thibs hasn’t been strictly as advertised because Knox had his chance early on, Quickly hasn’t left the rotation and Obi is being brought up slowly but has been there. But you can still see some signs of those bias too, as Knox is already out of the rotation, Frank hasn’t seemed to have a chance with the sometimes suspicious injuries, Obi is sometimes taken out the moment he gets in the rhythm of the game and Quickley, after consistent 25+ minutes games, has seen his time slightly reduced. And I understand going with the hot hand in Payton lately, but the youth bias can be seen the moment the young player is the hot hand, he is gone. Hey, I’ve seen it so I will call it.

Still, if this is the way it plays out, I’m good. I’m even good if Rose starts and Quick keeps getting consistent minutes on the second unit because his progress is my main worry. I love the Knicks winning and want them to continue winning as much as they can, but I think player development is as important and while Quick is a positive story on that, Knox and Frank are not. Many things could be happening off camera, especially with Frank, but the worry remains.

The Rose move doesn’t help the situation much, as it’s a reminder that Thibs isn’t fully away from his stubborn self who prefers to go after his past players and then use them for heavy minutes. The worry is real, as many media outlets have focused on the move being good as long as it doesn’t affect Quickley’s playing time. Hopefully Payton is moved and this is a non issue, but I’m not so sure with Thibs in control.

I guess I'm just old school because I remember a time when playing time was supposed to be earned and not anointed. Knox is not playing because he was ineffective when he got his chance and I suspect he wasn't showing much in practice either. Not sure I accept that continuing to play somebody when they suck will make them better. Randle didn't get better because we're playing him more. Randle got better putting the work in during the off-season. And I also think effectiveness in the mind of the average Knick fan is only judged on offense in terms of scoring.

I honestly don't have a problem with Thibs bringing the young kids along slowly and making them earn their minutes. People may disagree, but all things being equal I understand the preference for going with the vet. You can't develop a winning culture without winning.

Welpee @ 2/8/2021 7:15 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

If we dont add another PG, sounds like Rose is starting. We'll see how much RJ touches the ball, if thats the case. How much it cuts into Quickley's minutes.

Doubt Thibs is ready to start Quickley. Payton is a better defender than Rose.

He is a better defender than Rose but let's remember, he's Elfrid Payton NOT Gary Payton. Elfrid's effort on defense comes and goes similar to his offense.
foosballnick @ 2/8/2021 9:25 AM
fishmike wrote:we traded pick 45 and a guy in the G league for a player the coach really likes. Some of the knee jerking is a little over the top. Lets see yea?

On a funny note Frank survives again?

One of the guys complaining the most wants to trade Randle for Lonzo Ball......

StarksEwing1 @ 2/8/2021 9:46 AM
foosballnick wrote:
fishmike wrote:we traded pick 45 and a guy in the G league for a player the coach really likes. Some of the knee jerking is a little over the top. Lets see yea?

On a funny note Frank survives again?

One of the guys complaining the most wants to trade Randle for Lonzo Ball......

I’m not a fan of the Rose trade BUT trading Randle would be extremely silly UNLESS you’re getting a monster package of picks/players
foosballnick @ 2/8/2021 9:56 AM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
foosballnick wrote:
fishmike wrote:we traded pick 45 and a guy in the G league for a player the coach really likes. Some of the knee jerking is a little over the top. Lets see yea?

On a funny note Frank survives again?

One of the guys complaining the most wants to trade Randle for Lonzo Ball......

I’m not a fan of the Rose trade BUT trading Randle would be extremely silly UNLESS you’re getting a monster package of picks/players

Exactly. I would personally hold onto Randle, as he appears to be evolving into a team leader and is showing all-star like stats. At his current contract, he is also a high roster value through next season. But....if they ever entertain trading him it should be based on Obi (or another player) emerging as an acceptable replacement and seen as a high value acquisition by other teams - which yields a significant return back to the Knicks.

When rebuilding.....buy low to need / sell high from redundant strength

Also - I'm not worried about the Rose replacement. Better competition in practice on the roster should yield better gameday play. At this point DSJ was wasted roster space and the Knicks have enough redundancy at both the 1 and 2 to net a 2nd round pick back via trade.

martin @ 2/8/2021 11:32 AM
martin @ 2/8/2021 11:36 AM

martin @ 2/8/2021 11:48 AM
martin @ 2/8/2021 12:01 PM
huh don't detect one iota of we will miss DSJr but maybe I missed it
martin @ 2/8/2021 12:13 PM
martin @ 2/8/2021 12:25 PM
martin wrote:

I liked these thoughts from Jonathan

Rose Reunion: 5 Questions

There’s a lot to digest on the Rose trade, and it definitely has some big picture implications that I’ll get to in today’s column, but first some housekeeping:

1. What was the trade? New York gave up Dennis Smith Jr. and Charlotte’s second round pick this season (currently 40th, originally received in the Willy Hernangomez trade).

It’s sad but fitting that DSJ is little more than an afterthought today. It seemed like the Knicks wanted to give him a legitimate chance to earn a rotation spot in the preseason, but his offensive performance was just so uneven that they couldn’t justify it. With the 2020-21 campaign already a wash in Detroit, maybe he gets some low stakes minutes to try and earn a second NBA contract.

As for the pick, no draft selection is ever expendable, but this was close considering the Knicks have three other choices, all of which will be better than this one. Speaking of which…

2. What did Detroit really want? Kevin Knox, according to one source. Ian Begley reported yesterday that the Knicks were unwilling to include him in this deal, but his inclusion was certainly discussed. I get the sense they’re saving him for a bigger fish.

It was also reported that Detroit wanted its own 2021 second round pick back, so good job by Leon Rose keeping that out of the deal. D.Rose would not have been worth it.

Lastly, I’m told the Pistons could have had Frank Ntilikina instead of Dennis Smith Jr if they wanted him. They didn’t.

3. Why Rose, and why now? Those answers are intertwined: they moved on Rose because they could have him now.

According to a source with knowledge of the Knicks thinking, New York was set on upgrading at point guard before the deadline (duh), but there was enough uncertainty regarding who would be available, when they’d become available, and what they’d cost to make the Rose acquisition easier.

4. What about the money? Rose makes almost exactly $2 million more than DSJ, so the Knicks cap space will go down that much, to $15 million.

One note: because Rose was acquired using cap space, his salary can be combined with other players in another trade before the deadline (h/t Bobby Marks)

5. What’s next? The immediate question is about the rotation, where Marc Berman has already indicated that Austin Rivers might be out, and Woj noting that “Rivers is likely to become a player that contenders seek in trade talks.”

Speaking of trades, Ian Begley reported that at least one playoff contender has called about the availability of Elfrid Payton, although its worth remembering that he has a de facto no trade clause by virtue of how the Knicks re-signed him. Between Frank, Knox, Payton and Rivers, I’d put the O/U on how many of those four are here after the deadline at 1.5.

Looking even further ahead, Begley already posited that New York will likely look to re-sign Rose in the offseason. Given the market, it would seem like something in the $5-6 million annual range is appropriate.

For right now though, I’m betting Elf stays as the starter, and we see a backup five of Rose, Quickley, Burks, Toppin and Noel.

NYKBocker @ 2/8/2021 12:39 PM
martin wrote:huh don't detect one iota of we will miss DSJr but maybe I missed it

kid needed a change of scenery. Hopefully he figures out that he needs to rededicate himself and get healthy.

KnickDanger @ 2/8/2021 12:55 PM
I find it hard to believe the Pistons wanted DSJ who has shown nothing over Frank who at least has shown flashes. But I guess it doesn't matter -- neither was going to get out of Thibs' pet cemetery.
martin @ 2/8/2021 12:56 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
martin wrote:huh don't detect one iota of we will miss DSJr but maybe I missed it

kid needed a change of scenery. Hopefully he figures out that he needs to rededicate himself and get healthy.

Dude barely got done with GLeague Bubble protocol and the first Westchester team practice and now he has to miss that too

martin @ 2/8/2021 12:58 PM
KnickDanger wrote:I find it hard to believe the Pistons wanted DSJ who has shown nothing over Frank who at least has shown flashes. But I guess it doesn't matter -- neither was going to get out of Thibs' pet cemetery.

My guess (if that choice turned out to be solid): Knicks were like you can have Dennis and crap 2nd round pick or just Frank, and they went for door #1 and the 2nd round pick.

LegendD @ 2/8/2021 1:47 PM
Hope some day KP will also return back to New York... Stupid front office....
knicks1248 @ 2/8/2021 1:55 PM
KnickDanger wrote:I find it hard to believe the Pistons wanted DSJ who has shown nothing over Frank who at least has shown flashes. But I guess it doesn't matter -- neither was going to get out of Thibs' pet cemetery.

He's in every coach's we had dog house

Franks has Zero value around the NBA because he has not establish himself as an NBA player, doesn't play uptempo/downhill, is not really a PG, can't play sg because he doesn't shoot enough, doesn't penetrate, can't break down defense. After 3+ yrs in the NBA he's still a mystery, too many question marks.

Franks style of play is not conducive to today's NBA game

Teams look at DSJ voluntarily going to the G league, his work ethic, they look at what he did in DALLAS before the trade, and I'm sure Thibs pump him up as well.

Not to mention the pistons have a rookie french PG who is already better than frank at pg.

knicks1248 @ 2/8/2021 1:56 PM
LegendD wrote:Hope some day KP will also return back to New York... Stupid front office....

Amen

Nalod @ 2/8/2021 2:06 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
KnickDanger wrote:I find it hard to believe the Pistons wanted DSJ who has shown nothing over Frank who at least has shown flashes. But I guess it doesn't matter -- neither was going to get out of Thibs' pet cemetery.

He's in every coach's we had dog house

Franks has Zero value around the NBA because he has not establish himself as an NBA player, doesn't play uptempo/downhill, is not really a PG, can't play sg because he doesn't shoot enough, doesn't penetrate, can't break down defense. After 3+ yrs in the NBA he's still a mystery, too many question marks.

Franks style of play is not conducive to today's NBA game

Teams look at DSJ voluntarily going to the G league, his work ethic, they look at what he did in DALLAS before the trade, and I'm sure Thibs pump him up as well.

Not to mention the pistons have a rookie french PG who is already better than frank at pg.

Do you get how many times you repeat yourself.
Ignorant too. So they don’t want Frank because they already have a French guard? Killian Hayes played 7 games then got hurt. Hs not played since.
As for his value? No its not high. We all know this.
DSjr ceiling was always higher than Franks.
The rest of it was can see with our own eyes.
You fail to mention one thing...........Frank can play great NBA defense!

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